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Comments
No seriously I think if I can rebuild Porsche engines I could put shocks on a Chevy.
But what i really want to say to Doc is that I know what I don't know, and this keeps me out of trouble.
But I've been told it will pretty quickly blow that unneeded 1/2 quart out of the engine thru the PCV valve circuit.
Also, all 3 of the Northstars we've owned, the dipstick is miss-marked. At the required 7 1/2 quarts, it shows about a half quart low. So, when 8 quarts are put in it, it shows about right on the full mark on the stick. I've never understood what is going on here with the Northstar motors and their dipsticks.
That's my philosophy as well.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
I recently changed the oil in an older friend's 2005 X3, and wound up having to rectify the mistakes made by the prior service "technician".
I had previously provided my friend with a contact at my dealer as well as at my indie BMW shop, recommending that he go to one or the other for everything but oil changes- and I had offered to perform the changes for just the cost of the oil and the filter.
Well, he didn't want to "impose" on me so instead he took it to a local shop for an oil change. Fast forward to a Saturday a while back, when he called and asked me if I could change the oil sometime that week as his local shop was busy. No problem; I stopped by my dealer and bought a filter and he brought the X3 over. However, once I got into the job I encountered a textbook example of why you NEVER take a BMW to "Bubba's Fix-It Emporium."
First off, the drain plug was extremely difficult to loosen; when I finally did break it loose I found that the plug was missing its copper sealing washer. Odds are that Bubba didn't see the washer fall off when he drained the oil; so when he reinstalled the plug without the washer it probably dripped- so he really cranked down on the drain plug to stop the leak. Idiot.
Next up was changing the filter. Bubba had used a Fram cartridge which had plastic end caps(which were crumbling) and a filter medium that had started to distort. The correct BMW filter -manufactured by Mann of Germany- cost me $10.85 while Fram's alleged "filter" costs $2.50 more. Such a deal...
The BMW filter also comes with a new drain plug sealing washer and a new o-ring for the oil filter housing cap. Anyway, I wiped out the filter housing as best I could, and I think I got 99.99% of the plastic bits from the worthless Fram piece.
Finally, I poured in the requisite amount of Mobil 1 0W-40 and proceeded to reset the Oil Service light. Of course Bubba hadn't done that either, probably because he thought it needed a special tool. Wrong again; the indicator is reset using only the ignition switch and the odometer reset button. And it's not exactly proprietary information, either- just type "BMW X3 SIA reset" into almost any search engine...
My friend kept trying to pay me for my labor, but for me, fixing everything Bubba screwed up was reward enough. It was a dead easy job- assuming that you have opposable thumbs, the correct parts, and the readily available reset information.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
The closest I have come to a chain place was buying a fintail battery at Sears...drove it right into their facility where a battery is supposed to be dropped in within minutes. Not so easy. I had to go into the storage area with one of the workers and pick out the correct (huge, designed for trucks) battery. The crew there got a kick out of the car though, and no harm was done.
First oil changes are routinely done by entry level technicians and yes people being who and what they are can make mistakes, especially if they get rushed or distracted during some operation. You say you found the drain plug gasket missing and the plug overtightened. I'll say that based on your post you failed to full fill all of the duties that a technician should have when doing the next service and compounded the problem.
Lets start with the oil filter. FRAM, that's a company who's products are not high on my own quality list and haven't been for years. They IMO took an approach that tried to cheapen the trade services and marketed directly to consumers, like you. When I see filters sold at retail for less than what I pay wholesale for the O.E. component I don't expect that they will really meet my customers needs and therefore cannot justify trying to use them. However that has in turn caused a problem, the consumer see's that KMART advertisement for a FRAM oil filter and assumes that price is a fair value, and then when they get our bill don't understand why the filter we use cost them five times as much.
Lately Jay Buckley from FRAM started spending a lot more time on the iATN and has been working to try and repair the companies image. They have in the last few years backed off from advertising that hurt shops, and have been making great strides to manufacture everything here in the USA. Previously a lot of their products were being made overseas and when they have found issues they have been addressing them. You report here that you found a filter with the end caps failing, did you contact them with your dicovery? Had you of done that they would have requested the filter to be returned so that they could investigate why it happened. Did you get all of the fragments out of the filter housing? Are you sure none made it past and into the oil galleys where flow could be restricted? Do you have insurance for working on someone else's car because if you failed to get all of the pieces out, you are now the last one to touch it and are now liable should his engine fail. Had Fram been notified of the failure and that likely concern that pieces may have made it into the engine they would have stepped up and made sure that the owner was protected should a failure occur. But you didn't tell them about it did you?
You need to go take a seat beside the apprentice who misplaced the drain plug gasket, you have a lot in common with him/her, JMHO.
On the other hand, there is this story over in Answers this weekend:
Engine blew because of oil pressure. The car is under warranty, but Kia is blaming it on an aftermarket Fram oil filter
I agree. Mistakes happen. I've made plenty.
I don't use a quickie lube, but the independent shop I use for most of my maintenance has made mistakes with oil changes twice.
The tech forgot to put the oil cap on and I drove for about 1,000 miles before I popped the hood to check the oil and found the oil cap sitting on top of the engine cover. Thankfully no oil blew out.
Another time they put to much oil in it and the oil level read about a 1/3 inch above the full line.
I didn't make a big deal out of it and frankly I since no harm was done, it didn't bother me that much.
I don't think so, since negligence law only holds you to a reasonable standard---as a good neighbor I don't think you are responsible for fishing unknown and hidden objects out of an engine, especially when you didn't put them in there in the first place.
Nonetheless, you have a point as regards friendships being strained by misunderstandings.
Nice; I point out why you shouldn't use an incompetent shop for even minor service- yet I'm the one who gets criticized.
You report here that you found a filter with the end caps failing, did you contact them with your dicovery? Had you of done that they would have requested the filter to be returned so that they could investigate why it happened.
You have infinitely more faith in Fram's suits than I do.
Did you get all of the fragments out of the filter housing? Are you sure none made it past and into the oil galleys where flow could be restricted?
Due to the design of the filter housing any of the pieces that crumbled off the end pieces would have been caught by the filter medium. I thoroughly wiped out the housing just to be safe.
Do you have insurance for working on someone else's car because if you failed to get all of the pieces out, you are now the last one to touch it and are now liable should his engine fail.
Yes, I took the food from some poor technicians mouth. I sincerely apologize. As for any liability issues, I'm not particularly worried- although I must defer to your knowledge of tort law.
Had Fram been notified of the failure and that likely concern that pieces may have made it into the engine they would have stepped up and made sure that the owner was protected should a failure occur. But you didn't tell them about it did you?
As I alluded to above, I suspect Fram's response would have been "Go pound sand." In any case, my primary concern was advising my friend to make sure that only an OEM or MANN filter is used in the future.
You need to go take a seat beside the apprentice who misplaced the drain plug gasket, you have a lot in common with him/her, JMHO.
Thanks for exposing my rank level of incompetence; I hate to think how much bad advice that I have provided to forum members -and others- for the past 15+ years...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
Damn! And I've been listening to you all this time! :sick:
Actually Honeywell sold off it's consumer products division (Fram, Autolite, Prestone, Holt's) about 2 years ago to a New Zealand based private investment firm.
If I had only known how stupid I was- I could have saved everyone a great deal of trouble...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
Guess that means the new filter media is wool. :shades:
Ah, Rank Group owns some paper mills, so that could explain why they would take Fram. There's some ownership link via Champion Labs, which makes filters for Mobile1, VW, TRD, Mopar, K&N and Royal Purple.
To top it off, the guy that runs Rank started out as an auto body repairman. Now he's the 110th richest person in the world.
Just thought you'd like to know how it feels to be on that end of the stick.
You have infinitely more faith in Fram's suits than I do
You haven't met Jay, nor his "new" boss. Their response to similar distorted complaints recently was an open invitation (including airfare) to visit their new facilities and see how they have been working to put out good products. FWIW that came out of a report of end cap failure from a shop and they (FRAM) to their credit rose to the occasion and took car of both the shop and the customer.
Yes, I took the food from some poor technicians mouth. I sincerely apologize. As for any liability issues, I'm not particularly worried- although I must defer to your knowledge of tort law.
There is a subject that we covered recently about "Implied Warranty". I'm no lawyer and don't care to pretend to know anything about what they do. All we need to understand is, who-ever touched it last usually own's it.
Thanks for exposing my rank level of incompetence; I hate to think how much bad advice that I have provided to forum members -and others- for the past 15+ years...
Why your welcome. (sarc) Actually if I was really trying to do that it wouldn't be difficult. The moment you start performing services on someones car (or even your own) you are just as susceptable to the same kind of attack that you threw at that shop whether it was deserved or not. The difference is they aren't here to not only try and defend themselves, but that technician at this point doesn't know that a mistake occurred and therefore has no chance to learn from it.
The tech blew it when he/she lost the drain plug seal, you did the same when you discovered the filter failure and didn't report it and allow FRAM to recover it and investigate it. One mistake, and you get to be treated exactly like you did that shop. Fair is always a two way street.
I thought that my comments made it clear that I was not attacking all techs- just one specific incompetent. If you had read my previous posts you would know that I praised the dealer and indie shops that I DO patronize.
You haven't met Jay, nor his "new" boss. Their response to similar distorted complaints recently was an open invitation (including airfare) to visit their new facilities and see how they have been working to put out good products. FWIW that came out of a report of end cap failure from a shop and they (FRAM) to their credit rose to the occasion and took car of both the shop and the customer.
Wow, now I AM devastated. I could have obtained a free airplane ride AND a factory tour- all on Fram's nickel. Rats.
Actually if I was really trying to do that it wouldn't be difficult. The moment you start performing services on someones car (or even your own) you are just as susceptable to the same kind of attack that you threw at that shop whether it was deserved or not.
Let's see... That shop:
1. Didn't know BMWs use a copper drain plug seal(that's understandable; BMWs have only used them since the introduction of the Neue Klasse in 1962- if not before.
2. Used an inferior filter element that cost more than the OEM part.
3. Didn't know how to reset the SIA
Other than that I'd say that they did a first-rate job.
The tech blew it when he/she lost the drain plug seal, you did the same when you discovered the filter failure and didn't report it and allow FRAM to recover it and investigate it. One mistake, and you get to be treated exactly like you did that shop. Fair is always a two way street.
See above, I count three unforced errors. So my "mistake" was not wasting my time attempting to inform Fram that they made(make?) a substandard product? Please. My only concern was that the oil change on my friend's X3 was performed properly- using the correct parts and oil. I'm not about to assist Fram with their product longevity research- or teach the course "E83 BMW Oil Changes 101" to a shop that clearly didn't care about doing the job properly in the first place.
If you wish to continue to defend shoddy and incompetent work, be my guest. It's your credibility that is on the line.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
Fram has a lot of undoing ahead. They, like GM in some people's minds, have dug a large hole with their movement to 3rd world (4th world?) assembly and the cheapest quality possible. Some of Fram filters used to be made in Greenville, OH, years back, but after Honeywell purchased Fram that plant quickly was closed and the jobs moved to other countries and the quality left behind on the empty plant floor in Greenville.
I personally won't be using a Fram filter with trust, be it their cabin filters made in Spamnesia while the box shows a US address for the company or whatever. I'll choose the Purolator that's stamped USA on the cabin filter. I will stick with the Puro filters, standard and the Pure One for the oil. They say USA on the box.
I won't be buying from Fram who is profitting by pushing their quality-questioned merchandise by fancy suits and PR trips to headquarters. I even switch filters if I buy a package offer of oil with a specific filter at one of the box stores.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Specs may differ but I bet most of the engineering is shared. And I bet a lot of the internals are sourced from the same suppliers.
You have always given sound advise WITHOUT having the chip on your shoulder that seems commonplace with some techs!
When I worked for Honda, our Parts Dept and an orange Fram filter and an OEM filter tht had both been cut in half so the internals could be viewed.
After seeing the differences I can't believe anyone would even think about using a Fram filter.
But I don't think there's much "performance" difference between a Honda and Acura (performance here meaning the ability to do a task with a low failure rate).
That said, the point I intended to make was that I cannot understand why a shop would use any aftermarket filter(Fram or otherwise) when the OEM element is available at a lower price- especially considering that the OEM part is supplied with a new drain plug seal as well as a new o-ring for the lid of the filter housing.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
By the way, "incompetent" does not mean STUPID or bad or evil or unintelligent. It means "uninformed", or not "up to snuff".
This problem is separate from the problem of 'bedside manner", which some mechanics also suffer from---they don't know how to talk to consumers, who are often grossly uninformed in their own right.
I can say proudly that I am "incompetent" to do most work on my modern car; however, I could certainly learn how to do it. should I care to---or to learn whichever process I need to know at the time.
Given the complexity of the modern automobile, it seems apparent to me that the standards for certification in auto repair are going to have to be raised to be more approximate with private plane aircraft repair---sooner or later.
What do you do for parts, Cardoc3? My guy walks down the block to a parts store and I'll often see him doing that at all hours of the day. Probably a nice mental break from wrenching.
One of BMW's filter suppliers, Mahle, looks like the Hershey Company, but instead of profits supporting orphans, they focus on healthcare and education.
If you wish to continue to defend shoddy and incompetent work, be my guest. It's your credibility that is on the line.
I'm not about to defend the shop, or the technician. I'm also not going to defend the idea that anyone can operate as a shop (be it for compensation or not) without having met specific criteria such as licensing, tax ID numbers, cerifications, insurance, and not the least by obeying zoning laws. (There's more to it but this is a start)
One of the greatest problems the trade faces has to do with a lack of standards, which is one of the reasons we don't call it an industry. Anyone can simply open a garage door and claim any level of competence. If your really concerned about consumers getting to enjoy quality workmanship and that includes the use of the correct materials then you should have no reason to do anything but support the businesses that aphold the highest standards.
Your upset because I'm not about to give you a free pass, since when does anybody deserve one?
I thought that my comments made it clear that I was not attacking all techs- just one specific incompetent. If you had read my previous posts you would know that I praised the dealer and indie shops that I DO patronize.
The only comments that matter right now are the ones in this thread. You performed services in a manner that placed you inside the trade. Why should you be treated any differently than I would talk to a shop that has done the same as you did? The difference between our positions is I would have made the other shop aware of the problem so the technician could learn from the error and hopefully not repeat it. Fram did need to know about the failure so that they have a better chance of identifying if more consumers are at risk. I would have pressed a shop owner in the exact same way if they failed to alert a manufacturer of a potential issue.
As a shop owner I am all about raising the bar so that vehicle owners get the best service possible. If you don't like being held to such a standard, then you shouldn't be trying to service cars.
I'm not going to support your position regarding roadburner's willingness to help his friend, but I can certainly agree with you on this point!
I think I already relayed a story to support that notion, but (if not) here it is again:
A few years back I had a shop forget to tighten the lug nuts on a tire they inspected on my car. I thought it was a punctured tire situation (quick seal & fill), but they determined that there was internal sidewall failure that was causing the leak, so suggested I replace the set. Since I wasn't going to have them throw on whatever they had in stock, I came to get the car, lived with the situation another week or two, then replaced the set with the brand/model of my choice.
The craziness comes in on the drive home from the shop that night, which was about 12 miles from home. About a mile from home I felt an odd wobble. When I stopped at home and inspected, the lug nuts on that wheel were about two turns or so from falling off! I was more thankful of a good outcome than angry (considering it *could* have been a whole lot worse!). I rethreaded and tightened the nuts, then called the shop the next morning.
The manager was incredibly apologetic and offered all sorts of recompense, but I declined (I hadn't paid anything for the previous day's work!) and just told him that I was more concerned with making him aware of it so the same thing didn't happen to someone else.
He was more than thankful that I called.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
I agree, but I would also add "lazy". As an example, another friend took her BMW to a local shop because the tire pressure light and the brake lining lights were on. The shop fixed the slow leak in the tire and replaced the rear pads, but they didn't reset either warning light. Long story short, she messaged me and I explained how to reset each light- end of problem.
But why would ANY shop let a car leave with those two lights still illuminated- especially when it takes less than 60 seconds to reset both lights?
I can say proudly that I am "incompetent" to do most work on my modern car; however, I could certainly learn how to do it. should I care to---or to learn whichever process I need to know at the time.
I suppose it's just my nature, but I try to learn as much as I can about every car I own- and BMWs in particular. And like you mentioned earlier, I know what I don't know- I never tackle a job that I'm not competent to undertake.
Given the complexity of the modern automobile, it seems apparent to me that the standards for certification in auto repair are going to have to be raised to be more approximate with private plane aircraft repair---sooner or later.
A while back I mentioned that back in 2007 I called the VW dealers in the Louisville area and discovered that only one out of the three knew that a DSG gearbox needed servicing at 40,000 mile intervals; that was one of the primary reasons that -four months later- I spent my "hot hatch" budget on a new Mazdaspeed 3 rather than a GTI...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
I'm not upset, just amused. The tech who did the original oil change could have easily ruined the aluminum sump($621) or the entire engine($7,590)- yet I get lumped in with him because I didn't leap at the opportunity to be a remedial instructor for the tech or act as a research assistant for a company whose part I nether bought or installed.
The only comments that matter right now are the ones in this thread.
I assume you skipped the second paragraph of post #78.
You performed services in a manner that placed you inside the trade. Why should you be treated any differently than I would talk to a shop that has done the same as you did?
Talk all you want; my only goal was to provide the best possible service to my friend- and I am confident that I did exactly that. In my opinion, the tech who did the shoddy work and the circumstances of the filter degradation were not -and are not- my problem. If that makes me a poor tech in your eyes I frankly could not care less.
End of discussion.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
Camaro owner records mechanics abusing car, scheming to get damages paid for (Yahoo)
Probably many mechanics work on cars they cannot possibly afford. I just built myself a ZL1 here on Edmunds and it priced out at $66,900 :surprise:
Autobahn BMW does $30,000 worth of damage to a customer's 2007 M5, offers customer $2,500 as settlement
For those who don't want to plow through the long thread on m5board.com, the case finally went to trial in November of 2011, and the jury awarded the owner $60,000 in damages and $100,000 for attorney fees. This incident became almost as notorious as the infamous 2002 case where Georgia dealer Jim Ellis VW/Audi actually sued a member of the VW Vortex forums for posting negative comments about the dealership online.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
As for those $$$ scan tools, I can have a friend's shop do that for me and I'll pay them the diagnostic time and then hunt down the part---I did that with the faulty seat belt receptacle (lit up the air bag light) and the power door lock actuator (helped me diagnose which one) and the check engine light (we decided it was a glitch associated with a very high altitude climb +/high boost and of no further concern--my supercharger is modified BTW).
Many times I'm tempted to buy and restore a Volvo 122, put in aftermarket AC and then I'd have a car I could do any repair to, forever.
What do you make of such a claim?
Surely there's a way to cram the parts in while keeping the cars aerodynamic and not increasing the build time or cost on the assembly line. Plugs need changing more often than Jacuzzis.
That's one reason why I love my 2002- although I have to say that my 1995 318ti and 1999 Wrangler are pretty easy to work on. Inline engines mounted longitudinally are almost always easier to work on than a transversely mounted engine.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
Oh yeah, I pitched the totally worthless sealed beam headlamps- replacing them with Hella E-Codes fitted with Osram Night Breaker Plus H4 bulbs.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
Well....maybe!
On my '74 CJ-5, I remember doing some modest mechanical work on it myself and took an auto repair class with it at the local community college. Brakes, plugs and a gas tank replacement come to mind.
But any politician would need to be careful there as well. Britney is bat sh*t crazy and Christina - well she just scares me.
His ignorance of how cars are really tested and just how dirty they are without emission controls would be easily proven with an FTP test.
He likely mistakenly thinks that what he can measure out the tailpipe at idle is a valid indication of how much pollution the car is generating. The reality is just the fuel evaporating from the carburetor bowl when it is sitting in the garage vastly exceeds what today's cars generate while cruising down the highway at 70mph.
Most anything can pass an idle test as long as you don't run a camshaft with a lot of overlap.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
What I could understand from the conversations amounted to fraud when it comes to selling the clutch, and then warrantying the pressure plate. GM will no doubt look into that very closely and if they find proof of any occurance of that, the dealership is history.
Do take note of the "editing" that occurred before that was uploaded. That raises concerns all on it's own. Remember its not impossible for the recording to be fake. I can't say whether it is or isn't, but it will sure be interesting to see how this plays out.
Personally if these techs have engaged in such practices I'd like nothing more than to see them banned from the trade. The problem is we don't have a licensing structure that allows for that. Now you might ask why don't we have such licensing and the answer is simple, that would take the Back Yard Bob's out too and it seems no-one wants that no matter what they actually screw up too.