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A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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Comments

  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited March 2013
    Again, I don't see why using a manufacturer's oil spec is a big deal. I assume-correctly or not-that the manufacturer knows what oils are most suitable for their products. And in almost every case, oil that meets the manufacturer's spec is readily available. It may cost a bit more, but so what?


    Whether or not the manufacturer knows what oils are most suitable for their products, at least from a legal standpoint, becomes irrelevant if a consumer uses non-approved lubricants and has problems, especially during the warranty period. What IS relevant is that the manufacturer IS on the hook for damages if the consumer has completely followed the manufacturer's designated lubricants and maintenance schedule.

    I make this distinction only to suggest that, in any case where a consumer elects to think his knowledge is superior to what the manufacturer recommends, and uses alternative, non-approved lubricants, more than likely he will be on his own if and when repairs are necessary due to lubrication failure.

    In the case of my BMW products, I can purchase the exact factory specified oil from my local BMW/Mini dealer cheaper than I can purchase the Mobil 1 alternative that is on the BMW "approved" lubricants list from my local Walmart.

    Why would I use anything else?
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    edited March 2013
    I got 4,000 miles on my brand spanking new 2012 Honda Civic lx lease. Dealership says bring it in every 5,000 miles for oil change. Jiffy Boob wants it every 3,000 miles. Oil life monitor is at 70%. I know what I will do.But, what would you do. :confuse:
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Why slap me for being curious?

    Not for being curious, for being dismissive of the manufacturers requirements. The way I read what you wrote there doesn't suggest curiosity. Then when you write this;

    I don't need training Doc. I don't need an education. I just need a video that explains in two sentences why this electro/hydraulic system MUST have 5-40W oil.

    It goes beyond just the SAE viscosity ratings. The anti-foaming requirements of the oil can't be understated with this system. Just think about how fast everything has to work in order to open and close the intake valve, 2mm, three times during a single intake stroke in order to reduce pumping losses. And then turn around and do a full 11mm opening for 215 degrees of crank rotation during a hard acceleration over 5000 rpm. How fast does that valve have to open, and how fast does the oil have to flow back out of the actuator to allow it to be closed? The pressure on the "camshaft" and the hydraulic pump needs an oil thick enough to protect them, and yet it has to be thin enough to flow very quickly. The SAE viscosity ratings aren't sufficient to ensure that a consumers product choice will meet those needs. The API and ILSAC requirements aren't sufficient to ensure the anti foaming characteristics that the engine requires will be met.

    So it's not just about the oil being a 5W40, its about it getting the O.E's approval, and we haven't even begun to consider the other demands on the oil such as controlling deposits, cooling components, and still manage to protect the emissions system. You must consider all of the vehicles needs, not just how well the crank and bearings are protected from wear.

    I bet you don't even know.

    There are four classes that I have been presenting over the last three years that all go towards enhancing professional technicians awareness of the demands of the valve train designs and emission systems that are in use today. Between Gasoline Direct Injection (GDI), Variable Valve Timing (VVT), Variable Valve Lift (VVL), and now Fiat's Multiair technicians comprehension of the engine oil requirements have taken a significant turn. We need everyone else to also keep pace too, otherwise consumers won't be able to tell who really knows about their cars, and who's just blowing smoke.

    And with all of that I have on my side of the ledger I have to put up with you saying, "I bet you don't even know". What are you trying to really say when you wrote that? Are you just assuming that because you don't make a real effort to keep up that no one else does either?

    Aren't you curious?

    As far as my own curiosity, I satisfy that with daily doses of training, real training. There's well over 100 hours of study that go into prepping for each new eight hour class that I present. I have everything that Fiat has put out there to date about their multiair system at my finger tips so that I can answer the techs questions while we introduce them to these new systems.

    I don't need training Doc. I don't need an education.

    The reality is we all require continuous updates in our training if we are to advise the consumers correctly about how to care for their vehicles. Simply assuming that we know everything that we need to based on our past "experience" isn't enough anymore. That's one of the reasons why today when someone who isn't in the trade "anymore" (if ever) starts throwing around opinions they make a lot of mistakes with even the simplest of topics. When these published mistakes are at odds with how things really are, it becomes even harder to help the consumers understand and trust the top technicians.

    Instead of asking me right now, how about ask Ron and his department why they haven't been getting the readers up to date with the changes. Ask him why he has allowed that dexos article to still stand and continue to lead to more confusion. Maybe they can talk to Fiat and make your video for you and then we will start to make progress.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    I know what I will do. But, what would you do

    Glad you asked.

    I got 4,000 miles on my brand spanking new 2012 Honda Civic lx lease.

    First, I'd never lease. It's a huge waste of money for transportation.

    Dealership says bring it in every 5,000 miles for oil change. Jiffy Boob wants it every 3,000 miles

    While I don't approve of the entire quick lube facet, I wouldn't look down my nose at them like that. They serve a purpose and a need. FWIW Jiffy LUBE corporation doesn't reccomend 3000 miles on your new car. They have been attending training and have a very up to date system that supplies their store personell with the manufacturers service intervals and vehicle specs. It would be niave to think that all of the stores follow all of the rules and training, but it would be just as bad to think that most of the people active in this thread have as much or more training and comprehension as their employees do.

    As far as when does you car need serviced? What does your owners manual say, and has your OLM(oil life monitor) indicated that it's time for service yet?

    Oil life monitor is at 70%.

    Then you don't need to service it yet. You could choose to if you wanted, but its not required. Now the question is, when should you finally do that first oil change? Do you really want to go 10,000 miles on the original oil? Personally I would not. I'd probably let the monitor only go down to about 40% the first time. But after that, I'd let it run down to 10% +/- and as long as I'm using the correct product everything should be good to go.

    Keep advised, you do need to check and add oil between changes as the engine requires.

    BTW, I'd be changing it myself when it was due... ;)
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    Why slap me for being curious?

    Not for being curious, for being dismissive of the manufacturers requirements

    I would like to chime in on that and give shifty a good slap too... being dismissive of manufacturers requirements. The nerve! :P

    Never seen anybody get the better of ole shifty in these parts... till you showed up cardoc. :sick:

    Nobody never got the better of me neither. :cry:
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    edited March 2013
    First, I'd never lease. It's a huge waste of money for transportation

    Well, you're a bit off topic on that one.... Mr. Lease Doctor. :confuse:

    But, I never really thought I would lease a car. Certainly not cost advantageous as compared to the alternatives But, in this particular instance, it was was the better choice.

    While I don't approve of the entire quick lube facet, I wouldn't look down my nose at them like that.

    JiffyBoob is just a funny term of endearment I use. They provide a speedy/jiffy service to people who don't like hanging around dealerships.
    But, actually, from what you wrote in previous posts, I was quite certain you did look down your nose at them. :confuse:

    when should you finally do that first oil change?

    I was going to go 5,000 miles. Didn't mention at first, but first oil change is free at 5,000 miles. I'm guessing dealership does this to encourage me to have regular intervals of 5k miles changes. Which will provide them double the profit of a 10k mile interval.

    There is no maintenance schedule in my owners manual. The car has a "Maintenance Minder Information Display". Which I must admit, is difficult to accept. After years of being told oil change every 3k miles, transmission fluid change every 3k miles, brake fluid replacement every 2 years, you know oil is getting dirty when it start turning black etc etc... it's like throw all of that out the window. Everything you do now, your car tells you to do. I just don't fully trust the technology.

    The Oil life indicator was on my 1999 Buick Regal, which I didn't pay attention to. Did oil changes every 4-5k miles. I don't know, it just seems that deep down I would be abusing my car if I didn't change the oil every 5k miles. You can't blame me for that... can you? :cry:
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Jiffy LUBE corporation doesn't reccomend 3000 miles on your new car. They have been attending training

    I'm sure it was the training and not the lawsuits that convinced them. :shades: (Lube Report)

    Of course we all drive under severe conditions so we all need to change our oil every 3,000 miles. ;)
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    edited March 2013
    BTW, I'd be changing it myself when it was due

    When I was a few pounds lighter, I could just slide under my Buick and change the oil. Those are what my kids call "the olden days". :blush:

    These days after buying the oil and filter at Autozone, it's still about 10 bucks more than having it done at dealership. Of course you have no guarantee that it is being done properly at dealerhip. You don't have that sense of accomplishment. But, you also don't have the oily hands and busted up knuckles. :sick:
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    Of course we all drive under severe conditions so we all need to change our oil every 3,000 miles

    No kidding. The Kia dealership in my area handed me their maintence guide at my first visit. They use it for all their new and preowned vehicles. It says that for our area you should use the "SEVERE CONDITIONS" maintenance schedule. And that failure to do so may void the warranty.

    They should be getting away from the mileage intervals with more and more cars having the Maintenance Minder Information Displays.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    But, actually, from what you wrote in previous posts, I was quite certain you did look down your nose at them.

    I don't like the fact that they take a considerable percentage of the potential vehicle visits and make what used to be a viable entry level position working alongside a master technician now be little more than a dead end job. Their emergence has contributed to the very real shortage of qualified technicians today. JMHO
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Never seen anybody get the better of ole shifty in these parts... till you showed up cardoc.

    I got more than thirty five years of real world experience under my belt and the benefit of having constantly worked to improve my education that whole time. I've worked harder, and studied more (average 20+ hours a week) than I can realistically demonstrate in these forums. Yet, I'll be the first to tell you that today I have more training ahead of me than I have already gotten to date. Everything simply keeps changing that fast. Nobody can keep up with all of it, there just aren't enough hours in the day. But I still keep trying.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    I'd probably let the monitor only go down to about 40% the first time. But after that, I'd let it run down to 10% +/- and as long as I'm using the correct product everything should be good to go.

    According to the oil life monitor on our 2007 Lacrosse, I can go 12,000 miles between oil changes, using the required dino oil.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    No kidding. The Kia dealership in my area handed me their maintence guide at my first visit. They use it for all their new and preowned vehicles. It says that for our area you should use the "SEVERE CONDITIONS" maintenance schedule. And that failure to do so may void the warranty.

    After our friend's experience with his voided Hyundai warranty I have no desire to own either a Hyundai or a Kia. Ever since I was in Jr. High I've been partial to European cars, so I'll probably stick with them until they send me to the nursing home- but I will keep my TJ- the last real Jeep(just kidding).

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited March 2013
    So what you're saying is that the viscosity rating is not the primary operative in the oil required for the Fiat engine? That was exactly what I was saying. :P

    I have studied this system---it doesn't strike me as that complex or critical at all. I think it was intelligently designed to be rather "fail safe" than fussy-wussy like some variable valve train systems.

    I may write to Fiat about it--it's quite interesting.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I got 4,000 miles on my brand spanking new 2012 Honda Civic lx lease. Dealership says bring it in every 5,000 miles for oil change. Jiffy Boob wants it every 3,000 miles. Oil life monitor is at 70%. I know what I will do.But, what would you do.

    Personally, I'd follow the manufacturer's service recommendations, as Cardoc suggested he would do.

    The dealership has a profit motive in mind in its recommendation, but they also know changing oil more frequently than required rarely, if ever, causes any problems, unless the tech gets sloppy and forgets a critical step, like not tightening the drain plug.

    Same for Jiffy Lube.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    But, I never really thought I would lease a car. Certainly not cost advantageous as compared to the alternatives But, in this particular instance, it was was the better choice.

    From an individual usage position, its difficult for me to see how leasing can be financially advantageous. Certain short-term needs might make it viable, just as renting an apartment for a year might be a better financial decision than buying, depending on the specifics of one's circumstances. Overall, I would say those cases are fairly rare.

    On the other hand, having the ability to write-off lease costs can be a plus in a business-use arrangement, so its at least possible, in theory, to be a better deal financially for a business-oriented lease.

    Personally, I've never leased a car.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    From an individual usage position, its difficult for me to see how leasing can be financially advantageous

    Well, I said it was a better choice for me at that particular time. I've always deferred the new car experience to my wife, and bought cars 4 or 5 years old.

    With very little down and a low monthly payment... I can drive a brand new car (YA ME!) with full warranty. No out of pocket expenses for mechanical break downs, don't expect any with Honda anyhow. And when the lease is up at the end of 3 years, I can turn it in and walk away if not 100% satisfied... or I can buy it at its residual value.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    edited March 2013
    Personally I would not. I'd probably let the monitor only go down to about 40% the first time. But after that, I'd let it run down to 10% +/- and as long as I'm using the correct product everything should be good to go

    One thing we have all heard quite a bit in the past, is to change the oil at the recommended intervals to maintain the warranty (usually every 5-7,500 miles). If your oil life monitor says to change the oil roughly every 10k miles, what proof do you have that you changed it when the car tells you to?

    Does the cars computer store that information? i.e When oil change recommended and when oil change completed. What happens if you forget to resert the oil life monitor? Seems like a loophole a lot of dealerships,and or manufactureers, could use to get out of paying for warranty work.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2013
    Even better, never change the oil but reset the monitor every 3,000 miles with your code reader gizmo. :shades:
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    One thing we have all heard quite a bit in the past, is to change the oil at the recommended intervals to maintain the warranty (usually every 5-7,500 miles). If your oil life monitor says to change the oil roughly every 10k miles, what proof do you have that you changed it when the car tells you to?

    If your dealer services the car, the dealership records are your proof. If an Indy does the work, your service receipts are your proof.

    If you do it, your dated receipts for oil/filter are your proof. That's been an acceptable body of evidence for years.

    If it goes to litigation, an oil analysis by some outfit like Blackstone can provide evidence on the quality of the oil.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Well, I said it was a better choice for me at that particular time. I've always deferred the new car experience to my wife, and bought cars 4 or 5 years old.

    With very little down and a low monthly payment... I can drive a brand new car (YA ME!) with full warranty. No out of pocket expenses for mechanical break downs, don't expect any with Honda anyhow. And when the lease is up at the end of 3 years, I can turn it in and walk away if not 100% satisfied... or I can buy it at its residual value.


    Nevertheless, the lease is stacked against you, from a financial standpoint. Automakers don't lease vehicles so that they can lose money.

    I'm not against leasing, and I fully realize that for some people it's the proper option...As you noted above, no worries about warranties, no being stuck long-term with a lemon, the ability to always drive a relatively new vehicle, etc., just as long as you can easily live within the lease restrictions.

    If one puts 25k miles/year on a car, its not a very good option, dollar-wise.

    BMW relies heavily on leasing for vehicle sales, and its structured its sales program in such a way that its highly popular for those that don't put excessive miles on their car. The icing on the cake is the "4 year/50K miles" all-inclusive normal maintenance, down to the wiper blades.

    Still, from an overall purely financial analysis, leasing .vs. buying is a higher cost alternative, at the end of the day.

    But, to be honest, most people trade their vehicle far before its reached the optimal economic time to trade vehicles. Just about everyone likes to drive a new car...
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,175
    If you trade every three years, then you can probably save money by leasing, instead....

    Of course you can save money by keeping a car for ten years... but, then, you are driving an old car... ;)

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  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Is the 5W40 required thicker or thinner than an SAE 10W40?
    How does that 5W40 compare to a 0W40 LL-04?

    What is the coldest temperature that the vehicle can reliably start without the use of a block heater system?

    When changing the oil what steps are required to compensate for air introduced into the pressurized oil passages?

    You have a vehicle with a misfire on cylinder #2, and a normal compression test shows that you only have 30PSI cranking. What steps can you take to determine the exact cause for the loss of compression? Keep in mind, you only get paid .3hrs to accurately diagnose this failure.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    s the 5W40 required thicker or thinner than an SAE 10W40? -- thinner but the same at operating temperatures.

    How does that 5W40 compare to a 0W40 LL-04? ---the LL-04 is thinner in cold weather but meets an older specification than the 5W40.

    What is the coldest temperature that the vehicle can reliably start without the use of a block heater system? -- trick question since battery life comes into play. You mean if I owned that Fiat with that system? I'd plug a block heater in at 20F and see what happens.


    When changing the oil what steps are required to compensate for air introduced into the pressurized oil passages? --Don't know!

    You have a vehicle with a misfire on cylinder #2, and a normal compression test shows that you only have 30PSI cranking. What steps can you take to determine the exact cause for the loss of compression? Keep in mind, you only get paid .3hrs to accurately diagnose this failure -- I can't do that and get an exact cause in .3 of one hour I don't think but I'd suspect sticking valve, lifter or in case of Fiat, perhaps solenoid
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Is the 5W40 required thicker or thinner than an SAE 10W40? -- thinner but the same at operating temperatures.

    It's thicker. It's a High HTHS. SAE 10W40 is a low HTHS oil as are all North American spec oils.

    How does that 5W40 compare to a 0W40 LL-04? ---the LL-04 is thinner in cold weather but meets an older specification than the 5W40.
    They are in fact the same at high temperatures as both are High HTHS oils. At low temperatures the 0W has a lower pumping requirement specification than the 5W. The LL-04 has a lower SAPS.

    What is the coldest temperature that the vehicle can reliably start without the use of a block heater system? -- trick question since battery life comes into play. You mean if I owned that Fiat with that system? I'd plug a block heater in at 20F and see what happens.

    Consider that the low temperature pumping requirements are going to be critical to not only open the intake valves but to allow them to close. If the oil is too thick they will be slow to operate. The question then becomes, can the onboard computer actually compensate, and the answer is supposed to be yes down to -15f.

    When changing the oil what steps are required to compensate for air introduced into the pressurized oil passages? --Don't know!

    VBG. That one's the trick question, none are required. The system will self purge naturally in a few seconds.

    You have a vehicle with a misfire on cylinder #2, and a normal compression test shows that you only have 30PSI cranking. What steps can you take to determine the exact cause for the loss of compression? Keep in mind, you only get paid .3hrs to accurately diagnose this failure -- I can't do that and get an exact cause in .3 of one hour I don't think but I'd suspect sticking valve, lifter or in case of Fiat, perhaps solenoid

    At 30PSI you either have a major leak or the intake valve isn't opening. A cylinder leakage test would be useful to check for leakage. Otherwise, the compression testing needs to be done with a pressure transducer, not a gage and the resulting waveform would confirm if the intake valve is operating or not. The next check is to use a scope and current ramp the control solenoid circuit. Depending on these checks you have either isolated the fault, or you know that you have to remove the intake valve control assembly and its going to get a pump and solenoid for that cylinder.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    "
    It's thicker. It's a High HTHS. SAE 10W40 is a low HTHS oil as are all North American spec oils."

    That is a very controversial answer so I'm not going to buy it just yet. The whole question of HTHS oils and how they conform to present viscosity standards is in debate, IIRC.

    OTHER ITEMS: I would certain have either done a CLD test or pull a valve cover but I couldn't do that in .3 of an hour and I don't think you could either--well, maybe with an air gun, the right car and some hustle. :P
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    It's thicker. It's a High HTHS. SAE 10W40 is a low HTHS oil as are all North American spec oils."

    That is a very controversial answer so I'm not going to buy it just yet. The whole question of HTHS oils and how they conform to present viscosity standards is in debate, IIRC.

    No it's not controversial. ACEA A1/B1 and A5/B5 are low HTHS oils, and A3/B3, A3/B4 are high HTHS oils. The API and ILSAC have no designation for high HTHS.

    OTHER ITEMS: I would certain have either done a CLD test or pull a valve cover but I couldn't do that in .3 of an hour and I don't think you could either--well, maybe with an air gun, the right car and some hustle

    No need to pull the valve cover for the diagnostics. But we are talking the combination of some of the most high tech routines that are in place today used by top technicians. Plus one must have solid training on the system and understand first what happens in the event of a "system failure". Would the solenoid default strategy allow the valve to operate at full lift and duration, or would a loss of command cause no valve operation?
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Of course you can save money by keeping a car for ten years... but, then, you are driving an old car..

    Nah, I would call that a "middle age" car.

    Now my 87 BMW '325 that I got rid of last year - I would agree is old.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,175
    LOL... sold our '87 325iS just three weeks ago... :)

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited March 2013
    Okay, let's agree to disagree on that controversy (or not). I think our problem is "thicker" by what standard. But let's move on.....

    RE: VALVES----I would say, if the Fiat system is as clever as i think it is, that a solenoid failure would suggest a return to a full mechanical default position (no hydraulic dampening).
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited March 2013
    I started giving this question some thought, so I decided to look it up in the car owner's manual. This is what it says...

    Engine Oil Selection

    For best performance and maximum protection for turbocharged engines under all types of operating conditions, the manufacturer recommends synthetic engine oils that are API Certified and meet the requirements of Chrysler Material Standard MS-10896.


    Engine Oil Viscosity (SAE Grade)

    SAE 5W-40 full synthetic engine oil is recommended for all operating temperatures. This engine oil improves low temperature starting and vehicle fuel economy.

    Lubricants which do not have both the engine oil certification mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number should not be used.

    The engine oil filler cap also shows the recommended engine oil viscosity for your engine. For information on engine oil filler cap location, refer to “Engine Compartment” in “Maintaining Your Vehicle” for further information.


    Looking at the question, from a purely "requirements .vs. suggestions" POV, it seems clear that Fiat wants owners to use 5W-40 only, and gives no other option.

    It would have been nice for the manual to go a step farther and elaborate (for perhaps a paragraph) why only this weight oil was acceptable.

    Pity the poor guy who needs a quart (the engine only holds 4 quarts) and can't find the exact oil. Decision time... Walk or chance a damaged engine by using an alternative lubricant.

    Although I doubt a short driving distance on 5W-30 oil that otherwise met all the specifications would be excessively harmful to the engine...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I guess that the real point of my question was whether that specification was written by engineers or lawyers. :P

    "This engine oil improves low temperature starting and vehicle fuel economy. "

    Well any multi-grade synthetic would pretty much do that....so that's not a good enough reason...and if it has the required oil certification mark, then I can't see the harm if you were in a pinch to add oil.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    But it doesn't say that "SAE 5W-40 full synthetic" is required - only that it's recommended.

    Again, from your owners manual, "Lubricants which do not have both the engine oil certification mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number should not be used".

    Should is not a contractually binding statement - it make the clause that follows optional. The authors of the owner's manual should have used the phrase "shall not" instead of "should not".
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2013
    Hm, the manual also says (in the Fluids, Lubricants and Genuine Parts section):

    Use API Certified SAE 5W-40 Full Synthetic Engine Oil, meeting the
    requirements of Chrysler Material Standard MS-10896. Refer to your
    engine oil filler cap for correct SAE grade.

    That's from the Abarth manual I grabbed online; you can check the other ones here. (The 1.4l Turbo looks to be the same in the 500 manual, while the non-turbo has "recommended" language for a different spec 5W30).
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    edited March 2013
    According to their web sites, Castrol, Pennzoil, Valvoline, and XOM do not make a suitable oil for the Abarth.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited March 2013
    According to their web sites, Castrol, Pennzoil, Valvoline, and XOM do not make a suitable oil for the Abarth.

    That's Funny... Check out the recommended oil in the "oil change instructions" in the link below....

    Looks a lot like a Pennzoil product.

    http://www.fiat500usa.com/2012/09/fiat-500-abarth-oil-change.html

    And some wonder how, something that on the surface should be relatively simple, can end up being so dang confusing...
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    For nearly twenty years I've used a really good outdoor power equipment shop to service my two ZTR mowers. One mower uses a B&S Intek twin, the other a Kawasaki FH twin. Both manufacturers approve multi-viscosity oils as well as synthetic. I asked the shop about using synthetic and they said no problem, but that they preferred that I provide it. So a new guy comes to pick up the mowers; he sees the bottles of Mobil 1 in the footboards and says "You know that's not the right oil- you are only supposed to use straight 30 weight." I told him that I got the recommendations off the manufacturer's web sites and that the oils were approved. "News to me." he says...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I'm pretty sure that's not an official Fiat website though.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    Exactly; everyone is assuming that Pennzoil Ultra 5W-40 is the correct oil- but Pennzoil does not list Chrysler MS-10896 approval on any of their Product Data Sheets.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited March 2013
    I think you're right, but in the footnotes at the bottom of the oil change instructions they cite as sources are Fiat, Chrysler and the Fiat Abarth Repair manual.

    About 1/2 way down the page, there is a disclaimer that the site isn't associated with Fiat, but you really have to be searching for it in order to find it,

    The point I was attempting to make was that it isn't enough just to just take what appears to be an authoritative reference as fact, but one must really verify anything that isn't absolutely certified as manufacturer recommendations and requirements.

    I can easily see how many would confuse www.fiat500usa.com as a manufacturer-sponsored web-site and reference. Perhaps Fiat should insist that this site clearly denote its not a manufacturer sponsored site.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited March 2013
    everyone is assuming that Pennzoil Ultra 5W-40 is the correct oil- but Pennzoil does not list Chrysler MS-10896 approval on any of their Product Data Sheets.

    From the little bit of searching I've done, I can't find any manufacturer offering oil conforming to the MS-10896 spec. I wonder what is so unique in the refining/additive process that causes it to be so rare.

    After reading several other Fiat based forum comments, several posters have claimed the Pennzoil 5w-40 shown in the earlier linked oil change instructional page is the exact oil their Fiat dealers use for Abarth oil changes in their dealerships.

    I guess I'm glad I don't have an Abarth...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It's a bit more clear on their forum at the bottom, but I'm surprised that Fiat isn't complaining to them too. I didn't see the disclaimer halfway down the main page at all.

    Meanwhile we're back to wondering how much effort will people take to verify the manufacturer spec vs simply picking up a jug of 5W30 at Walmart.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I have to freak out every time someone puts an oil filter in my MINI, since they make two types and if you use the wrong one, that's bad, really bad. So I have to examine the filter before I give them permission to use it. The oil? If it's full synthetic and a name brand, then ....whatever 5w30 they have.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited March 2013
    Meanwhile we're back to wondering how much effort will people take to verify the manufacturer spec vs simply picking up a jug of 5W30 at Walmart.

    Agreed...

    One thing seems sure... Over the next couple of years, we're going to see if the Abarth indeed requires a very unique oil, or if it isn't such a necessary requirement after all.

    From spending about 30 minutes in forums on the subject of oil changes in Fiat Abarths, it would appear there are quite a few that aren't worried about using lubricants that don't meet the Chrysler spec.

    In fact, many posters don't even use the correct weight oil...

    "Parts is parts..." seems to be the order of the day...
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I forget what year model your Mini is (my wife has an 05 non-S convertible), but I suspect that as long as you change the oil somewhat frequently, and don't try to get 15K miles between oil changes, you'll probably never have a lubrication-related issue, as long as you continue to use the correct filter and a reputable synthetic oil.

    You're far more apt to see dual-mass flywheel issues on your S model.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    "Parts is parts..." seems to be the order of the day...

    Some people thought the same thaing on the BMW boards and didn't use BMW coolant- then they wondered why they were plagued with premature cooling system failures. I'm sure that more than a few fools will pour whatever they have into their Abarth's cooling system as well- never mind that Fiat specs an OAT coolant...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh the flywheel "Chewbacca" noise? I got that already. I just live with it. I'm not spending $2200 to fix a squeak.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    OK, I just found this: Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40 PDS

    So I stand corrected- it apparently is approved for the Abarth...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2013
    Funny that it's already changed though -- "Chrysler MS-12991 (replaces references to MS-10896)".

    So what happens if you can only find a jug labeled MS-10896? Shouldn't you really be using the latest and greatest? :shades:

    I'll have to get new reading glasses to keep up with all of the fine print on this stuff.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    That's dated January 2013, so its relatively new.

    Still, I'd like to have some general idea of exactly what is unique in the Chrysler specs...
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