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A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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Comments

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    If we really compared the two, the big one right away is either anyone can grab a knife and do an apendectomy, or else there has to be some kind of a licensing system put into place in auto repair. Since I can't see anyone agreeing to either of those IMO the rest of the debate would be just a waste of time.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    how do you motivate an engineer to design for ease of repair after the sale?

    I can't think of any that would be seen as ethical, moral, or humane....


    That kind of motivation, or direction has to come from the top down. It has to originate at one of the "C" level positions. And that is never going to happen unless it can be shown that designing for ease of repair helps the bottom line.

    Unfortunately, it's probably more profitable for the company to make their vehicles as difficult to repair as possible. At least after the warranty period has expired :sick: .

    A lot of the equipment I design goes to the government. Aircraft avionics we design usually come with a Mean Time to Repair (MTTR) requirement. Maybe that's 1 hour, or 2 hours, after access to the equipment has been provided. If our equipment does not support that requirement, the government can withhold part of the payment due. That affects the bottom line, so there is an incentive to make sure the equipment meets the MTTR requirement. When we're designing something new, a Maintainability Engineer will be part of the design process to help make sure those requirements are met.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2013
    Ease of assembly will always trump the ease of repair

    Have to wonder if that would hold true if the engineers designing the product also were responsible for fixing the item when it needed service or repair. Perhaps if we had a 10/100k warranty on everything in the car, including wear items, we'd know. Or we could just legislate maintainability engineering. :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well somebody better do something because it's getting completely out of hand.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Perhaps if we had a 10/100k warranty on everything in the car, including wear items, we'd know.

    What you would get to know is how much the predicted cost of that warranty impacted the sales price. Nothing is free.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Or you just buy a Toyota:

    I bought a new Scion xA, sold it to a friend at 35,000 miles

    She now has 75,000 miles on it.

    Here's a list of repairs we've both done since new:

    that's right---nothing, just oil, gas, filters and tires. :)
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Here's a list of repairs we've both done since new:
    that's right---nothing, just oil, gas, filters and tires


    On one hand that's great and its why I often remark, "They don't build them like they used to".

    But even this has a cost. From a techs POV, we don't see them and the systems on them until they do break. Then it is a learning curve as steep as one could ever be. You can't teach someone to be able to work at that level, they either have the talent, and push themselves to get the training that is required or they simply aren't qualified/capable to do it. Now add in the fact that the tools are getting prohibitively expensive to start with, and on top of that we don't even get to own them, just a license to use them for a while and you have your throw away car when it does finally break.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    You could compare hospital healthcare costs with auto repair flat rates, but only if you used standard hospital billing procedures---which means, a) you have no idea whatsoever what it will cost to fix your car until after the repair, and b) the price on your bill bears no resemblance whatsoever to what the insurance company actually gives the repair shop.

    Well, it was never my intent to compare car repair costs to medical costs.

    The point I was attempting to demonstrate was how antiquated systems can be in determining the actual costs/efforts to accomplish a stated goal, whether it be auto repair or medical treatment.

    From what I've gleaned from cardoc's previous comments, he doesn't exactly strike me as being completely satisfied with how the rates and times for car repairs are calculated...
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    From what I've gleaned from cardoc's previous comments, he doesn't exactly strike me as being completely satisfied with how the rates and times for car repairs are calculated

    The word "fraudulently" comes to mind.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited March 2013
    Have to wonder if that would hold true if the engineers designing the product also were responsible for fixing the item when it needed service or repair. Perhaps if we had a 10/100k warranty on everything in the car, including wear items, we'd know. Or we could just legislate maintainability engineering.

    That seems like a moot point, since manufacturers in a capitalistic system will always be more concerned with making a product and getting it to market to sell, rather than repairing a significantly lesser number of units that experience failure later in life.

    Frankly, I don't see any possibility of legislated maintenance engineering. Didn't we address (or at least, tell ourselves we did) that aspect by passing various "lemon laws"?

    Competition could, in essence, mandate "engineered reliability", and it has, up to a point.... Just not 10years/100K miles (yet),
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Locate and read the article I described in TIME magazine, and the term "fraudulent" will come to mind frequently...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2013
    getting it to market to sell, rather than repairing a significantly lesser number of units that experience failure later in life

    Well, warranty claims are a huge expense; I've seen reports that Ford does a design/build anticipating a 10 year lifespan for parts in order not to incur big warranty expenses (I guess they build for 10 for parts they guarantee for 5/60?). Even if GM only has a 2% warranty claims rate, we're still talking hundreds of millions of dollars and a reserve fund of billions. That's a lot of money "tied up" on the balance sheets. (warrantyweek.com)
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited March 2013
    And those "reserve" costs are included in the price of the product.

    Insurance companies aren't the only companies that employ actuaries. Automakers generally have a pretty good handle on what projected warranty costs will be.

    In the pre-paid card business, there's a term called "breakage", and its the term used for the amount of minutes, dollars, etc. that will never get used, due to card loss, user ambivalence, and other things.

    Breakage goes directly to the profit line, and the unwritten goal is to get card owners to incur as much breakage as possible, by not using the card.

    The theory is the same in warranty repair. Establish an amount reasonably expected to be incurred (calculated based upon actuarial-type criteria), and factor that into the selling price.

    Of course, boo-boos do arise, such as BMW and its high pressure fuel pump fiasco, and I'm betting in that case the guestimated frequency and costs of repairs far exceeded the budgeted amount. That's just 1 example.

    The real question comes into play when the manufacturing management starts playing funny with the reserve numbers, inflating expected profits by underestimating the true warranty repair costs.

    That's a big reason manufacturers sometimes do all they can to avoid recalls, not so much that it damages the brand image, but it whacks the allotted warranty repair costs estimates.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2013
    BMW in general spends a lot more money on warranty repairs than most per that warranty site. VW is way up there too. The car company with the lowest reserves and charges is Honda. They also enjoy about the best reputation for reliability.

    Their cars aren't any cheaper. :shades:
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    edited March 2013
    The dealers are under contract to accept what the manufacturer pays for a given repair. In the event of a recall or an extended warraty consideration it is quite common to see the labor times slashed. The dealer in turn only pays the tech the reduced time and then expects the tech to upsell maintenance to "make up the time" and his/her paycheck.

    This goes all the way back around to NBC's sting. It wasn't right for the dealer techs to oversell the maintenance, and they got burned for that. Meanwhile NBC turned around and let the dealerships off the hook by blaming the techs and the writers. It's sad how the ones really at fault get away with what they have been doing to simply start the whole mess anew with another group of people.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited March 2013
    Their cars aren't any cheaper.

    But perhaps their cars are more profitable per unit.

    http://www.industryweek.com/blog/supplier-relationships-key-hondas-healthy-profi- t-margins
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2013
    Sure, and I think one factor is because their warranty costs are lower, due to their quality standards with suppliers, etc.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    Competition could, in essence, mandate "engineered reliability", and it has, up to a point.... Just not 10years/100K miles (yet),

    They're definitely on their way. My buddy's 2006 Xterra has about 104,000 miles on it now, and has been pretty reliable. It had two tire pressure sensors fail, and needed work on the HVAC controls twice, and just recently the CD player quit ejecting. Otherwise, it's just been maintenance. However, he always takes it to the dealer for those 30K things, and I don't think they're particularly cheap.

    I don't think my uncle's 2003 Corolla gave him any major fits in the first 100K miles, either, although the catalytic converter started to fail soon after.

    Even my old 2000 Intrepid wasn't too bad for the first 100K miles. It had a power lock actuator fail around 35K, needed a new thermostat housing around 51K, and around 90K some TSB performed to fix the oil pressure light, which started flickering at low rpm, even though oil pressure was actually fine.

    As for warranties on maintenance and wear and tear items, don't some manufacturers, like BMW, offer that already?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Seems some yahoo got the credit card number for my teaching account. Fraud control noticed some questionable purchses, in California! They tried to notify us yesterday evening on our business phone.

    The POS got us for a little more than a grand so far. Now I'm wondering if that's the only card they grabbed. :mad:
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,756
    Interesting recount, Doc. The amazing thing here is that the customer was satisfied with the data collected as being enough to effectively throw another part at it and hope that solved the issue.

    Out of curiosity, what did you quote him to finish out the work? Assuming I really wanted to keep that car, I would have been sorely tempted to just keep forging ahead with it so that my car was reliably fixed afterward. There's a point at which I recognize that I'm in over my head and I am willing to admit that no amount of hedging is going to change that fact. :sick:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,756
    Wonderful. Any chance that's an April Fool joke?! :sick:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,756
    There's a positive feedback loop associated with higher profit margins, if the company is willing to take advantage of reinvesting such windfalls back into the company in the areas that really count. The American manufacturers could have taken advantage of that for decades, but they preferred to piddle such potential away.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Wonderful. Any chance that's an April Fool joke?!

    Nope. I don't have enough imagination to come up with something like that. :sick:
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Well, that certainly sux!

    At least, credit cards do provide you loss protection from unapproved charges. Just another hassle in everyday life.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_958511&feature=iv&src_vid=- j7X73fGAwGM&v=j7X73fGAwGM#t=27m45s

    Watch it twice, first time from the 27 minute mark as linked, and then go back and watch the whole thing.

    If you have the time, some of the other videos that are associated will make for some good discussion too.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Well, I had some time, so I watched it from beginning to end.

    The guy from Nissan was, by far, the most prepared, IMO.

    The 2 things that hit me from his talk....

    1-Service techs call our service "hotline" looking for a silver bullet.
    2-We don't make it easy for them. They have to have a code before getting through to a live body.

    Overall, there's a grand shortage of service techs (only 5% of GM trainees make it to the top), and no one seems to have any real idea how to effect change.

    It's a real problem, and from a manufacturer/authorized dealership relationship, manufacturers are going to have to find ways to make dealers want to employ more and better qualified technicians.... I didn't see much in the way of that discussed in the video.

    Definitely, a very complex issue...
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    1-Service techs call our service "hot line" looking for a silver bullet.

    Isn't funny that the real reason for that is because they don't pay the techs enough time to take a disciplined approach? They want it too fast, and the result is that it teaches bad habits.

    2-We don't make it easy for them. They have to have a code before getting through to a live body.

    So then they punish the bad habits, and then turn around and wonder why they lose techs.

    It's a real problem, and from a manufacturer/authorized dealership relationship, manufacturers are going to have to find ways to make dealers want to employ more and better qualified technicians.... I didn't see much in the way of that discussed in the video

    Where are they going to find better techs? They have decades of failing to support the technicians work force to overcome. Even if we could attract the right prospects tomorrow, it takes twenty years to learn to be that full master technician, and that's not taking into account the changes that we don't even know are coming.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2013
    Where are they going to find better techs?

    They aren't. The manufacturers are going to have to build more reliable cars and figure out some way to fix the dealer franchise system. It's broken.

    The independents? Dying breed, they'll be as rare as Mayberry Emmetts who can fix your toaster or window fan. When was the last time you saw one of those guys?

    The real problem is that self driving cars won't be able to drive themselves to the shop when they break down. :D
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Now when everybody and their uncle takes pot shots at techs, whether deserved or not, just imagine what that does when it comes to trying to attract talent.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That never discouraged people from becoming lawyers! :P
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    That's just human nature; everyone complains about docs/lawyers but they typically love their own personal one. You just have to quit reading that stuff. Kill your TV. :shades:
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    First of all, I agree that the independent shops are like the dinosaurs, looking at that big bright object in the sky, headed their way and getting larger by the minute. In all the shops that do anything but the most basic, common repairs, the independent shop is going to disappear by 2025, just like the milkman, the service station attendant and the doctor that made house calls. Simply put, the environment is evolving.

    But, what about the future of car repairs/maintenance?

    I see several possibilities... Some are...

    1- Throw-away vehicles, like the TV and computer of today. Built for a specific, relatively short lifespan, they will be recycled into new cars with the latest technology. Planned obsolescence, and no worries about outdated versions of software controls.

    2- The separation of dealer sales & service centers, possibly with the manufacturers running the service centers and dealers only selling. A hybrid version: Dealers disappear completely, and cars are sold primarily via Internet and Apple-style stores. Service centers are regionally located within sales areas.

    3- Dealers cede the service responsibilities management to the manufacturer, and manufacturers run each dealer's service organization, eliminating the wide variance of how each dealer's shop facilities are manned and equipped. Uniform service becomes much more attainable.

    4- Something entirely different...

    One thing is for sure... If the manufacturers are thinking this is a problem that will eventually get resolved once the dealers "come around" to the idea of providing responsible service, they're on a different planet than we are... If anything, many dealers are getting "cheaper" nowadays.

    As for Cardoc's implication that the general public "takes it out" on service techs, I personally don't see it that way. What I see is ill will towards the dealerships and manufacturers. A common term one sees on forums is "stealerships", and I think most folks understand the lack of qualified, ably trained techs is not a fault of the techs themselves, but a lack of effort by dealerships/manufacturers.

    Then again, I don't face repair customers on a daily basis. But, I spend enough time on forums to know that many either don't ( or can't ) comprehend that a $50-60 K lux-mobile will ALWAYS have a higher cost to maintain than a basic, no-optioned Toyoya Corolla.

    Of course, I could be totally off-the-mark. After all, back in the 1960's, when seat belts were finally mandated, I would have bet good money that no one would die due to lack of wearing their seat belt by the time the 21st Century rolled around. Same for smoking. I was terribly wrong on both accounts.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    I don't see independents becoming extinct, but I can see the survivors being the shops that specialize in no more than 2-3 brands(Audi/VW, BMW/MINI, Buick/Cadillac/Chevrolet, etc.). In my case those shops have always been the ones that I wound up patronizing. Unfairly or not, if I was looking for a new shop to use for maintenance or repairs on my BMWs I would zero in on a shop that had a good reputation among BMW enthusiasts- as opposed to BMW "wearers"-and in almost every case that turns out to a BMW specialist shop.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    There are more lawyers in New Jersey than there are Master Technicians in the whole country. Think about that.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Overall, there's a grand shortage of service techs (only 5% of GM trainees make it to the top), and no one seems to have any real idea how to effect change.

    Techs around the country know what the problems are, which is the first step towards fixing the problems but their voices fall on deaf ears. That's why you don't see them telling kids that this is a great career to come into.

    The kids that do try to enter the trade quickly learn just how poorly its administered so they leave while they still have time to do something else with their lives. Just go back to the two statements about using the techline. Is it really all that different? The techs calling in to the hotline looking for the silver bullet, than the DIY'ers who write in here looking for a silver bullet in the Answers forum? It is the wrong approach in both cases, but the DIY'ers don't know better, and the techs aren't encouraged, or rewarded for taking a disciplined routine towards real diagnostics. Even worse, when they do someone at some point will turn around and say something like "P0101, I knew it was a bad MAF why did you spend all of that time testing it?"
    Toy tool sellers, like CarMD tell the public pull the code and our database will tell you what is wrong with your car, as if that's all it genuinely tales, all of the time. The contradictions are everywhere and they can be maddening.

    BTW, the one way to effect change the quickest? No new blood so that the trade collapses through attrition. The peak should occur about five to ten years from right now at our present pace.

    Roadburner had one part right about specializing, the problem is there isn't enough work in one or two manufacturers anymore to keep a shop afloat. There hasn't been enough for a while, which is why those dealers got caught selling wallet flushes.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    1- Throw-away vehicles, like the TV and computer of today.

    Never going to happen, unless you can buy a new vehicle for less then $199 :P .

    4- Something entirely different...

    Maybe a tiered or hierarchical service concept?

    At the bottom layer would be the techs (or shops) doing the routine/maintainence stuff - tires, brakes, oil changes, wiper blades, etc.

    In the middle would be the techs working on the electronics or emissions.

    At the top would be those - maybe like cardoc3 - who can troubleshoot problems that seem to or may actually, involve multiple failures.

    This could take the shape of a pyramid, with, for example, 1 top-tiered center supporting 5 middle tired centers and 10 lower tiered centers.

    In any case, it's a given that 1) vehicles are more reliable today than they were 20 or 30 years ago, but 2) when something does go wrong, it can be a bear and cost big bucks to diagnose and fix the problem.

    Question for cardoc3 -
    Is there any mechanism in place for techs like yourself to report problems back to the manufacturers? You've related a couple of stories about the root cause of a problem being in the wiring someplace - chaffed insulation, pinched wiring, corroded connection, etc. Wouldn't the manufacturer want to know about such problems, so that they can use them as sort of a lessons learned to improve their product? The rationale being to improve the quality of there product so that the need for repairs are reduced or eliminated?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    "Never going to happen, unless you can buy a new vehicle for less then $199"....

    I would disagree with that. In fact, this is *already* happening to out of warranty cars.

    Some examples:

    1. Many cars which are flooded are automatically totaled--repairs are not even attempted in some cases.

    2. Most cars built say in the last ten years, with a value of say $7500 or less, that lose their engines AND are out of warranty, are junked.

    3. Some cars built between 2003 and 2013 have engine computers that cost thousands of dollars. If you own a very high mileage example that's a bit scruffy, you'd be apt to get rid of it.

    It's not unimaginable that dealers or automakers will face a complexity of warranty repairs wherein the labor or parts invested would be more expensive than pro-rating the car and taking it back to the factory for refurbishment.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Complex cars are also throwaway when they start going wrong. A ca. 2001 S600 with any major issues is a parts car. An old A8 with issues is scrap value. Old V12 7er is even worse.

    For indy shops, maybe the jack of all trades ones will be numbered, but brand specialists will continue to have customers, especially when their work on big jobs is significantly less than the dealer, usually with identical results. Not special for oil changes, but if you need a transmission etc.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    I don't disagree with your examples. Almost any consumer product is, at some point in time, going to get to where it's just not financially viable to keep it going.

    However, bisiris seemed to be hinting at vehicles that were specifically designed to be throwaway - not repairable in the usual sense. I don't think that would include cars that were flooded.

    1- Throw-away vehicles, like the TV and computer of today. Built for a specific, relatively short lifespan, they will be recycled into new cars with the latest technology. Planned obsolescence, and no worries about outdated versions of software controls.

    Back to flooded cars for a minute. Many people would declare a loss a cell phone that was dropped in the toilet. But I would open it up as much as I could, remove the battery, SIM card, and whatever else would come out. Then I would bake it in a ordinary oven at, say 150 deg F or 175 deg F and try to dry it out.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Complex cars are also throwaway when they start going wrong. A ca. 2001 S600 with any major issues is a parts car. An old A8 with issues is scrap value. Old V12 7er is even worse.

    True. Like I said above, any product eventually gets to the point where it doesn't make financial sense to repair or maintain it. But that's not quite the same as a vehicle that designed from the get-go to be throwaway.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Okay but even here we see the trend in the "disposable car" direction. For instance, many cars no longer have dipsticks; many cars have numerous parts which are not 'serviceable'.

    I guess what I'm saying is....if more and more parts of a car are becoming disposable, at what point does the entire car become disposable? :P
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    edited April 2013
    For instance, many cars no longer have dipsticks; many cars have numerous parts which are not 'serviceable'

    Just because it doesn't have a dipstick doesn't mean that the oil doesn't have to be changed, or added to, in 150,000 miles, right?

    if more and more parts of a car are becoming disposable, at what point does the entire car become disposable?

    When the cars costs less than $199 ;) .

    We could do a back of the envelope calculation. Lets take a car that costs 15,000, has a 10 year life, and needs $2000 worth of maintainence done on it over that 10 year period (tires, brakes, oil changes, etc). So the cost of that car is $1,700/year (ignoring financing and similar costs).

    IMM then, a throwaway vehicle that was intended to be discarded every 2 years would have to cost less than $3,400.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    I don't know, super-complex cars that age poorly might be part of the plan for some of these guys - they know their brand equity and target market combine to make it work.

    I think most modern cars are "throaway" in a way - nobody is thinking they will ever be restored or repaired past a certain point.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    ...super-complex cars that age poorly might be part of the plan for some of these guys - they know their brand equity and target market combine to make it work

    I don't disagree with that. But I'm not in the financial stratosphere where I'm willing to buy - and discard after 3 or 4 years - an A8 or 7-series.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well I wasn't thinking of this as a rational development. What I meant was that you might be *forced* to dispose of it because of some--let's be fair---unusually complex repair. In other words, a certain number of consumers now purchasing 2013 cars might end up getting completely screwed, with no one intentionally planning for them to be.

    To put it another way --- every year we progress technologically, we are in a sense creating a more treacherous "danger zone" for the consumer on that line between "one day being in warranty, and the next day not".

    If a 2013 car has a 5 year warranty, the risk of facing complete disposal at year 6 is greater for them than it was for a consumer with a 2001 car in 2006.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited April 2013
    ...super-complex cars that age poorly might be part of the plan for some of these guys - they know their brand equity and target market combine to make it work

    I don't disagree with that. But I'm not in the financial stratosphere where I'm willing to buy - and discard after 3 or 4 years - an A8 or 7-series.


    Well, I certainly don't think we all wake up one day and find ALL cars have morphed into disposable, recycle able units. That type of trend usually starts at the bottom and works its way up.

    Example: Flat screen TVs. When first introduced, the small sized sets were considered "use until it breaks", and the 50"+ sizes were considered long term sets. It's hardly economical today to have a standard 50" plasma repaired after its out of warranty, the way the current pricing is structured on new sets.

    Henry Ford's intention was that, with proper maintenance and service, a Model T would run FOREVER. I doubt you could find an auto executive today that would make that claim about a single model his/her company produces today.

    So, we're already on that path to a certain extent. There will always be those that go to exceptional efforts to keep their "unit" (car, fridge, HVAC, etc) running as long as possible, but for the masses, its going to be more like "it broke.... Time to buy a new one".

    Back to flooded cars for a minute. Many people would declare a loss a cell phone that was dropped in the toilet. But I would open it up as much as I could, remove the battery, SIM card, and whatever else would come out. Then I would bake it in a ordinary oven at, say 150 deg F or 175 deg F and try to dry it out.


    That's a perfect example of my previous comment, kudos to you, but folks like you are, population-wise, rare as hen's teeth...

    Now, I'm not making any specific predictions on when (or even IF) the car industry will reach a completely "commodity based" behavior like we have for electronics, appliances, etc., but I do see a lot of movement in that direction.

    In 100 years, your great grand kids will still be able to go see a Model T in a museum, but its doubtful they will see many examples of cars being produced today sitting alongside that Model T.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2013
    So you're going to dry out your car in the oven? :P

    Actually a heated paint booth might work!

    But seriously, I've seen what it takes to repair a flood damaged car, and believe me, no one's going to be doing that in his spare time in his backyard.

    Picture this (actual scene I witnessed last week).

    A flooded Porsche Boxster brought in for repair---water was just over the floorboards.

    Car now has totally stripped interior (to bare metal), convertible top and top mechanism off, dashboard off, wiring spilling out of firewall.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    It's hardly economical today to have a standard 50" plasma repaired after its out of warranty, the way the current pricing is structured on new sets.

    I guess it depends on what the cost is to repair one. My son's 55"(?) plasma died late last year. One of the indicator lights was blinking a code that indicated some buried thermal sensor had opened up. We took the set apart, bought a similar part from radio Shack, patched it across the bad one (that was actually part of a transformer), and put the set back together. And it worked, for a while anyway.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,182
    cell phone that was dropped in the toilet. But I would open it up as much as I could, remove the battery, SIM card, and whatever else would come out. Then I would bake it in a ordinary oven at, say 150 deg F or 175 deg F and try to dry it out.


    And, then, you would go buy a new cell phone... ;)

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  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I guess it depends on what the cost is to repair one. My son's 55"(?) plasma died late last year. One of the indicator lights was blinking a code that indicated some buried thermal sensor had opened up. We took the set apart, bought a similar part from radio Shack, patched it across the bad one (that was actually part of a transformer), and put the set back together. And it worked, for a while anyway.

    Cost is always a factor, and usually THE factor.

    Still, I can't imagine the ordinary consumer dismantling his wide-screen TV and swapping out any "plug & play" parts, if there are any, much less grabbing a soldering iron and replacing fixed components. Nor can I imagine the average car owner swapping out a water/fuel/oil pump on his car.

    I don't think any of us posting on this thread would honestly consider ourselves "run of the mill" car owners, if for no other reason, we at least have some minimal interest in how they work, as well as what it may take to keep a car running. I'm certainly no car "wizard", but I do expend some effort in attempting to understand car "innards".

    To the average car owner, oil is oil is oil.

    In a related side note of where we're headed: 2-3 years ago my wife bought a fairly-well optioned Oster toaster oven, close to the $100 range. After a few months, the upper heating element overheated (probable bad thermostat) and deformed. I emailed for warranty service, and was told to expect a new unit within a week, which we did receive. The email also instructed me to simply cut the power cord off the defective unit and take it to a recycling place for disposal.

    Evidently, its cheaper to take a user's word that he has a bad toaster unit, junk it, and completely replace it than it is to examine the defective unit, repair it and return it. What I would like to know is at what $ break-even point the manufacturer wants to repair the existing unit. One thing is for sure, whatever that $ level was then, its most certainly higher now.
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