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Jeep Wrangler

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Comments

  • keatskeats Member Posts: 412
    blue_jepp,

    The good news is that regardless of the mileage you'll love your Jeep anyway. Congratulations on the purchase.

    But I have never heard of Wrangler getting above 18 mpg. This might make an interesting poll. I'm not trying to argue, just saying that in general, I have read complaint after complaint about the mileage of Wranglers. I have an '04 Rubicon and have never achieved higher than 15 mpg, and generally average 14 mpg in a mix of hwy/city. In contrast our '04 Grand Cherokee has been averaging 20 mpg. Both vehicles run synthetic oil. When I have the top down, the mileage really gets lousy, maybe 12 mpg. In the winter with the hard top, it's might creep up to 15.5 mpg.

    So, fellow jeepers, what kind of mileage are you getting?
  • blue_jepp_wrablue_jepp_wra Member Posts: 24
    yeah i cant wait to go on some trails with it
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    I'll bite on the gas mileage - I got a little over 21 mpg on a tank going from my house to Oceanside this past weekend (and have done that going from the house to Barstow). Of course, that was all downhill and we had a tailwind.

    I often get 18 plus mpg in the Unlimited (auto, soft top), and 19-20 in the Sport (5 speed, hard top). To get that I have a commute of 98% highway, most either slow-n-go or full speed. I set the cruise control at 65 or below and never go above 70. If there's an accident on the freeway or if it is windy, forget it - I'm lucky to get over 16. The Sport can go a little faster than the Unlimited before the gas mileage goes down.
  • jefferson1964jefferson1964 Member Posts: 330
    Im averaging right on 16 MPG mixed driving in my 05 Rubi Unlimited Auto Soft Top.....would luv 18+ but its not happen in the rubi......
  • yellowfinyellowfin Member Posts: 8
    I concur. I have owned an Unlimited since the '04.5 hit the showroom floor. One week after I bought it I drove it across country (Yorktown, VA to San Diego, CA) and averaged :shades: 18 mpg. I have since traded in the factory tires for 31" Bridgestone Duelers and the ride has improved dramatically, wish I had done this before the trek cross country.
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    There was a time when I was averaging about 17 MPG with my normal driving mix, which was mostly going to work and back. My commute is 27 miles one way, and back when Thelma Jane was my daily driver, she got about 17 MPG for an average. The commute is 95% parkway driving. I have been driving my little S-10 to work since Thelma Jane was about 7 months old.

    In order to get that 17 MPG, I had to keep the speed under 70 MPH.

    I could never get that kind of MPG now, since going to the heavier 31 x 10.50 BFG Mud Terrain tires and adding all the weight that my mods total up to. I have a winch, winch mounting plate, gas tank skid, rocker guards, heavy corner panels, and an oil pan skid. No telling how much weight I have added, and that doesn't even include the two tool kits I carry and the winch accessory kit.

    Tomster

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • koolbreeze2koolbreeze2 Member Posts: 252
    Presently (and in the past) I average 15 mpg. No matter what I do its 15 mpg. Driving slow, fast, off-road, highway , wind, soft top, hard top, snow, rain, hail, its 15mpg. I just returned from a trip to Toronto and my wife offered to pay for the gas. We were visiting her sister. She said its the last time she pays. She was under the misguided impression that it got 25-30 mpg. I wonder where she got that idea. Must have been from when I was making my case for buying Rosie John
  • koolbreeze2koolbreeze2 Member Posts: 252
    Hey Keats. How are you? Sorry I forgot to say hello in my message.Hello!! I got carried away with my gas milage report. Go Easy, John
  • wheelsdownwheelsdown Member Posts: 250
    Red Ryder's numbers. 2000 TJ, 4.0, auto, mostly city. 24,804 miles, 1,748.7 gallons =14.18 mpg.

    Terry
  • rp05rp05 Member Posts: 20
    Greetings,

    I stumbled across this board doing research on purchasing a used jeep... well, I wound up ordering an 05 unlimited patriot blue with the h package. Can't wait till it arrives, as of last Thursday no vin # yet, however dealer told me 6 others that were ordered 5 days before mine have a ship date of 5/31 hopefully mine will be 5 days after those. My 5 year old is the most excited, he now points out every Jeep that he sees now and asks every day when's the Jeep coming? can' wait to take the kids off road.

    Ron
  • gsyoung1960gsyoung1960 Member Posts: 52
    Hey, I'm going to be getting an 05 Unlimited in a few weeks, and was considering changing out the tires for 31's... So, you'd highly recommend Bridgestone Duelers?... and it really improved the ride?
  • keatskeats Member Posts: 412
    Hiya, John, doing great! Did you find a place for your HT?
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Ron:

    Welcome, and congratulations on your order for that Unlimited. Stick around and we'll help ya get through the waiting period.

    Hey, there are some awful nice folks in your area that you could hook up with. I saw from your profile that you are in Peoria. There is a cool Jeep club called The Mid-Illini Jeep Club, and at least some of the members are in the Peoria vicinity. Also, Jeff62301 from here in this group lives fairly close to you, I guess. He belongs to another Jeep club, so maybe you could join them.

    You are going to have to bring that Jeep down to LBL and go to Turkey Bay with me sometime for some wheelin'.

    Here's a little website I created about Turkey Bay...

    http://home.earthlink.net/~tsjay49/

    Glad you posted, Ron. Keep it up.

    Tom

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • thejeepthejeep Member Posts: 9
    I have a 01 Wrangler at one point was getting 20 to 21mpg HIGHWAY, but since then I have upgraded my Tires to 32x12.5x15, and my mileage plummeted like a falling star to roughly 17.5mpg Highway. I have added K@N air Intake Kit, Throttle Body Spacer with only minimal improvement. To try to increase power and mileage I will install ignition upgrade system with a chip upgrade. All I can due is hope that these upgrades will improve mileage, since I put on average of 1800 miles on my jeep a month.

    Have you got your JEEP muddy today?
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Peeps, I kind of closed the barn door after the cows got out, but I bought a pair of Husky Liners for the front floor boards a while back, and those puppies are NICE. My carpet was already ruined, but it's still nice to have those things.

    If you get in and out of your Jeep all the time in muddy conditions, you are going to have a ton of mud on your carpet or floor mats (or both). The Husky Liners have a lip that prevents the stuff they catch from spreading to the carpet. You can just lift the HL's out, hose them down, and scrub them.

    Tomster

    Have you hugged your Jee today?
  • will_sebergerwill_seberger Member Posts: 6
    Hi! I just wanted to take a second to introduce myself to the community and ask a quick question. I am the proud owner of a new 2005 Wrangler SE 2.4L 6sp. It's beryl green and quite a fun toy. Pretty basic model, but I didn't want a big payment.

    At any rate, I'd like to put a *small* lift on it, so as to not void the warranty, not kill the ride and not destroy the fuel economy. I'd like to keep it to 2.5 inches or less. I'm not a rock-crawler or serious four-wheeler. Anyone have any suggestions?

    Thanks!
  • jeff62301jeff62301 Member Posts: 310
    your choice of vehicles is excellent, I'm glad to see more and more long jeepers join the board. we will soon outnumber the short jeeps!!

    regarding jeep clubs in western IL,,, I'm alittle biased, but I highly recommend Two Rivers Jeep Club based in Pittsfield www.trjc.com we have members from several states and quite a few that drive down from Chicago.

    TRJC has access to alot of private land trails, we don't depend on ( or have ) any public land close. the club hosts 2 jeep ( all reasonably sized 4 wd vehicles are welcome ) events a year each targeted at drawing in about 150 vehicles. several times a year, different landowner members have the club out for a trail run, in return the club maintains the trails and covers liability insurance. meals / meetings are usually held before or after the trail rides.

    and during the trail building days everyone seems to find time to get their jeeps muddy.

    Peoria is not that far,, come down and check us out. ( I'm sounding like Tom ;) )
  • jeff62301jeff62301 Member Posts: 310
    Tom,

    those were the first things I bought for the jeep, and the OEM carpet ones sold very well on EBAY, actually I think they sold almost exactly what they cost with the jeep.

    Husky Liners are well worth the money. I just got the ones for the front seats too.

    jeff
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Will:

    Welcome to Edmunds Jeep Wrangler, and congratulations on the purchase of that Jeep!

    That beryl green is SHARP.

    You sound like a very good candidate for a "Budget Boost." A budget boost retains your factory springs, but adds spacers to raise the frame. You get longer shocks in the package with some budget boosts. Rubicon Express has a nice BB for $229.95 in the Quadratec catalogue, and they include four new longer travel shocks.

    Lifts are easy to install, especially the smaller ones like you would be getting for just 2" of lift. You most likely will not need to drop your transfer case for driveline angles, nor are you likely to need to relocate your trac bars to center your axles.

    Glad you have joined us, Will.

    Tomster

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • Hi Ron,

    Congrats on your ordering the '05 Unlimited. My 6 year old boy and 4 year old daughter are pros at pointing out Jeeps left, right, forwards, backwards, up and down...they've got Jeep Hawkeyes! My wife is just a little less excited since she hears their yells of "Look!!! A Jeep!!" while I'm at work all day. My boy keeps asking me, too, when we'll get our '05 Unlimited ordered 4 weeks ago.

    I feel like a Jeep "Groupie" calling my dealer once every week to get status. I make secret runs through the dealer lot late at night if my wife sends me out for errands in hopes I'll see a car carrier truck waiting to unload my Stone White Unlimited in the morning...she's been wondering why I take so long - If I wasn't such a nerd she might start thinking I'm having an affair. ;)

    I was delighted last Thursday to hear my dealer tell me a ship date of tomorrow, Wed. 5/25 plus/minus 2 days...here in SE Michigan, we're only about 50 minutes North of Toledo, OH where the Jeeps are born. I had hoped to get it yesterday or today but I guess they're either on-time or I'll be seeing that "plus 2-day" delivery... :(

    Just sold my '02 Civic (just waiting to sign it over and get my check). Ordered my hard top hoist for the garage. Ohhhh, this waiting is so bad but also so good. I haven't felt like this since waiting for Santa as a kid!

    All my best to the whole Jeep Wrangler gang out there and thank you for giving me something to help pass the time until I can officially join your ranks. :shades:

    Jim
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    To try to increase power and mileage I will install ignition upgrade system with a chip upgrade. All I can due is hope that these upgrades will improve mileage.........

    Save the money for gas, the ignition system on the Wrangler provides a way more than adequate spark. A 'chip' may give you a little more power at full throttle, but it'll be hardly noticable unless you drive at full throttle most of the time.
  • rp05rp05 Member Posts: 20
    Jim,

    I know what you mean about calling the dealer, Thursday is my day to call. Hopefully it has a vin # and is rolling down the line. I'm also still trying to sell my car to bolster my down payment. After I bought that car it's value plummeted and I swore I'd never buy new again, then I went looking at some used Jeeps and just happened to see the Unlimited and that was it I had to have one.

    What color and options did you get and which hoist did you order.

    Ron
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    Mtngal seem to get the best gas mileage here. Because of variations in setup and of various tolerances, 4.0 Wranglers will seemingly get between 10 and 20 mpg with most falling somewhere in the middle.

    You can't get an accurate mpg figure without knowing the accuracy of your particular speedometer/odometer, and also keeping accurate check of the amount of gas used. You need a GPS for the former and a notebook for the latter. You also need to make the calculation over as high a mileage as possible, at least a couple of thousand.

    For the record, my '99 4.0 auto gets 14-15mpg, mostly with an empty passenger seat, and with the a/c always on. Tire size is 31".

    For anyone interested, the H1 now gets 13mpg (diesel), mostly with a full passenger seat, and a/c is never on. Tire size is 37". :P
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Will mentioned that he was planning to keep the lift small on his Jeep so that he would not void the warranty.

    Mods cannot void a warranty. They CAN cause specific items not to be covered, if the dealer can show that the mod caused the part or parts in question to fail.

    The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act protects consumers against dealers who would attempt to deny warranty coverage because of modifications that are unrelated to the failed part.

    Now, some mods could cause premature wear of factory parts, so when you install such mods, you do so at your own risk as far as the parts that could fail because of that mod. But, you certainly are NOT voiding your whole warranty.

    Tomster

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    Yes, a small lift may cause warranty problems on items like the drivetrain and suspension, but there's little else that should be affected.

    A lot depends on the attitude of the dealer. A sympathetic one will be 'blind' to small mods, while another may look for any and every excuse not to provide warranty service.
  • jpk257jpk257 Member Posts: 43
    I have had my unlimited for a few weeks and have put 600 miles on here. So far I have averaged in the mid 13's. I am hopeful this is going to get better...

    Within the first few days I upgraded the tires from the GSAs to 31" Revos and I would highly recommend them.

    Good luck with the new jeep.
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    Congrats to all our new Wrangler owners! I know that some people predicted that the Unlimited would never sell when it first came out, and it's wonderful to see how many (like me) have taken to it.

    I really think the reason I get such good mileage is that I have such an elevation change (5800 feet difference between home and work) AND I drive slower than most people around me AND I'm driving stock Wranglers. And when I hear there's been a major accident on the freeway just north of work (like tonight), rather than try to make it through the gridlocked streets, I go to dinner and wait for them to clear it before I even think about moving the Jeep. The last time I spent an extra hour on the freeway wading through an accident my gas mileage went down to below 16.

    I put Dueller AT tires on the Sport and loved them for the first year or so. After they were worn about half way I found them to be about the same as the Goodyears. I've now got the BFG AT tires on it and I'm very happy with them. They still don't have much wear - since we got the Unlimited it doesn't get driven very much. I'm thinking of going with them on G.G. (the Unlimited) sometime this summer. The Goodyears are showing quite a bit of wear but at 38,000 miles on them, I'm not surprised.
  • embeedueceembeeduece Member Posts: 260
    City vs. Highway? In Los Angeles County it couldn't matter less. Everything's stop and go. Mostly stop. Suffice it to say my mileage is lousy. Manual tranny; I keep her maintained and inflated. Still get around 13 mpg, I think. But it's cool, 'cause I'm only paying $2.60 a gallon in gas.

    -Mike
  • gsyoung1960gsyoung1960 Member Posts: 52
    A few questions...

    1) Why would you recommend the 31" Revos?... Better ride?... looks?

    2) What did you do with the old tires? Sale them? If so, how did you advertise, and how much did you get for them?

    I'm getting an unlimited in a few weeks, and considering the same thing, just concerned that the ride will be worse, and I'll be eating the cost of the new tires I'm replacing.
  • blue_jepp_wrablue_jepp_wra Member Posts: 24
    dude 2.60 is wicked expensive in vermont it is like 2.17
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    gs:

    I have no experience with the Duellers, but I did run BFG All Terrains before switching to BFG Muds due to all the wheelin' I do.

    I highly recommend those BFG All Terrains. I assume you would have no need for mud tires? My BFG All Terrains were showing no measurable wear after 6 K miles, when I replaced them with Muds. I think they are a super good-looking tire, and they handled and rode extremely well.

    Just remember, whichever tire you get, be sure to properly inflate them. People tend to WAY over-inflate tires on Jeeps. Remember, the weight of the vehicle is a BIG factor in determining the optimum inflation pressure. Just because the maximum pressure rating on the sidewall of the tire may be stated as 50 psi, that does NOT mean that you run them anywhere near that pressure on a light vehicle like a Jeep. I ran my All Terrains and am currently running my Muds at 28 psi.

    There have been posts in here on the subject of tire pressure, so if you want more info, search on "inflation" or "psi."

    Some tire stores give pretty nice trade-in allowances on those factory GSA'a. If you look around, you might find a deal. You could get things set up with a tire store before you even take delivery of the Jeep.

    Good luck.

    Tomster

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    Tom is right. The Rubicon Express Budget Boost with spacers and longer shocks is a good, inexpensive way to go for a small lift. I considered it on my 1997 SE, but given the fact that my springs are pretty shot, even with a 4cyl and soft top, that I chose to go with a full suspension upgrade. I went with OME (Old Man Emu) out of Australia. Their suspension upgrades (they don't call em lifts for some reason) will give me between 2-3" of lift, but with my aftermarket bumpers, homebrew trunk, rocker guards, gas skids, and the winch I'll be putting on, I'll probably end up right in the middle there somewhere.

    The ride quality is reported to be as good as, or better than, stock and it will provide good articulation when I run with Tom up at Turkey Bay, which I hope to do again soon. These lifts are pricier, but you can find decent prices online at various OME distributors, like DPGOffroad.com, out of Wichita, Kansas.

    -Paul
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    "...'cause I'm only paying $2.60 a gallon in gas." Ouch!

    Mike - have you ever thought you live on the wrong side of the hill? I can fill up in Lebec at $2.35 before heading down the hill to the land of your $2.60 gas. Last time we went to Costco in Bakersfield, the gas was $2.32. I don't even bother looking at the prices of gas in West L.A. around work any more.

    By the way, a while ago there was discussion of range. I don't really know the true range, because we stop every day to get gas. Because we live in a high hazard area, we never leave the cars parked at the house with less than a quarter tank of gas. With a daily commute of 150 miles, and such a difference in gas prices, it's better for us to top off every morning.
  • keatskeats Member Posts: 412
    Yep, that was the first thing I bought as well. I bought Huskys for the front, rear and back of the Jeep. Great investment. I usually just vacuum them out and wipe them down with a wet cloth. You can see the passenger side mat to the right in the picture below:

    image
  • blue_jepp_wrablue_jepp_wra Member Posts: 24
    What do you mean high hazard area
  • koolbreeze2koolbreeze2 Member Posts: 252
    Hey Keats. Presently storing it in a friends barn. Then a funny thing happened. I remembered that my son-in-law runs a rigging business.Duh. He is going to suspend it from the ceiling until winter. I am happy that I waited and did not sell the top. This forum always helps. My advice to new Jeep owners- consult this forum before doing anything drastic. Experience is the best teacher. Have had nothing but rainey days so no practice with the roll. Its interesting that I am worried about a crink in the windows. I drove a 1949 Willy for years with no top and a transistor radio duct taped to the dash as my sound system. Now I am worried about some crinks in a window???? How times change. Go Easy, John
  • Hey Ron,

    Thursdays have been my "call-in" day, too.

    I bought a Honda Civic for my last new car hearing how great resale is because Honda rarely does rebates or low-financing...well, it took me almost a month to sell it and I had to keep lowering the price until I started getting action. The price I finally accepted took me to over 34% depreciation in 3.5 years of owning it...seems to be a glut of them on the market which is odd considering that everyone should be scrambling to buy them with today's gas prices going up. That depreciation is more than I took on a Chevy Monte Carlo I sold in 2000 after about same number of years of ownership. I think there's a lot of very nice condition used cars in the market but be patient...you'll find a buyer.

    I fell for the Unlimited due to some "Just Add Water" advertisement insert in a magazine. It just hit me how much I love the look of the Wrangler and took me back to my roots of wanting one when I was in my early 20s.

    I've ordered Stone White 'E' Package w/ Automatic, Security Group, Side Steps, Dual tops, and locking fuel cap. I ordered the hoist from removabletops.com but don't have it, yet.

    Good luck selling your car and hang in their bro' during the waiting period.
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    prone to wildfires and such... and with all the rain soCal has had this year, it could get really interesting in the upcoming months as all that taller growth dries out - ripe for a lot of wildfires.

    If I recall, after the 98 El Nino weather, the grasses were REALLY tall and the following summer/fall brought a LOT of wildfires. I know I was cutting our yard/weeds ALL the time.

    -Paul
  • lion220lion220 Member Posts: 3
    I have a soft top '00 wrangler sport and someone broke into it last weekend. they sliced about a foot long T shaped hole above the drivers seat. I am in wonderful ithaca ny so it rains all of the time. does anyone have any idea how to patch this up until i can afford a new soft top. also what is the best after market soft top to buy...the one with the flip back sun roof looks nice...finally where is the best place to purchase a top...the jeep dealer wanted 1300 for the whole operation.

    thanks

    matt
  • koolbreeze2koolbreeze2 Member Posts: 252
    Hey Keats. Saw the post on your Husky liners. Does the back liner work with the rear seat in or does the seat have to be removed and the liner taken out when the seat is put back in? That does not sound right but I think you know what I mean. Thanks, John
  • keatskeats Member Posts: 412
    Hi, John,

    The rear mat works fine with the rear seat down or up. To give you an idea of the dimensions, to install it, fold and tumble rear seat. The liner extends all the way to the folded seat. Then you can simply put the seat back down. The rear liner also has a raised lip around the hole for the seat belts. The only downside to the rear liner is that it covers up the footman loops. So you're not able to "dog" down cargo.

    I know what you mean about be worried about crinks in the window. I keep telling myself, hey it's a Jeep...but I like it to be perfect, still.
  • div2div2 Member Posts: 2,580
    Just buy a Bestop Replace-A-Top and DIY. Under $600 easy. The dealer is REALLY trying to gouge you...
  • lion220lion220 Member Posts: 3
    is it hard to replace the top yourself?
  • jpk257jpk257 Member Posts: 43
    1) The revo's get much better traction on wet pavement, are quieter and definitely look better.

    2) I traded them in. The tire store gave me $50 each for the GSA's. It was pretty expensive to replace 5 new tires, but to me it was worth it.
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    Replacing a soft top is as easy as:
    1. Unscrewing the cloth from the header over the windshield bow
    2. Unsnapping a few snaps
    3. Undoing the velcro around the rear bows.
    4. Install new

    You do NOT need to replace the hardware, just the fabric. Go with a Bestop Sailcloth Replace-a-top. It will fit the factory hardware with no problems at all and you have the thicker fabrics found on late model Wranglers.

    You can get Bestop from a variety of sources like JC Whitney, 4wd, or Quadratec, who has an instant rebate going right now. Here is a link to the black replacement top.Blakc Bestop Replacement Top.

    If you shop around you can find em probably a bit cheaper still. But, IMO, Bestop is the only brand I'd go with.

    If you want to patch it, according to Bestop manuals... they can be repaired with Bondex iron on patches. Patch it from the inside and follow the instructions in the Bondex packaging.

    Hope this helps,
    -Paul
  • keatskeats Member Posts: 412
    Matt,

    All the major Jeep parts places carry a wide range of tops, but I think either Acme or 4 Wheel Drive Parts offers those extended charge plans, you know, where they charge your credit card of an installment period. That might absorb the blow. I have heard time and time again that the Mopar top is much better than any other top. It is made by Bestop, but it is made to Mopar specs. It fits betters, operates easier and is not as loud. I have a couple of buddies that recently replaced their tops with Best Tops, one went with the cheapest Best Top replacement top and the other went with the Bestop Sail Cloth. The sail cloth is much quieter, but it still flaps more than my Mopar factory top and doesn't seem to fit around the doors as well. You can usally find new Mopar tops on Ebay in the 6 to 700 dollar range or you can try jeepsareus.com. They have the cheapest prices on factory equipment that I've found on the net...good luck!
  • lion220lion220 Member Posts: 3
    Is the sunrider not a good top? Thanks for all of your help i will begin looking immediately
  • keatskeats Member Posts: 412
    For all the folks buying new Wranglers, I want to alert you to the best addition I never remember I have: seat risers. Starting in '03, Wrangler seats changed and were lowered an inch. I'm about 5'10 and I could barely see the end of the hood. When I was in a buddy's 1999 Wrangler I loved how much better the visibility was. So I ordered a set of Buchanann Seat Risers. He offers them in several sizess. I went with the 1", which I found to be perfect. Here is the link if anyone is interested. Randy is a great guy to deal with.

    Seat Risers
  • gsyoung1960gsyoung1960 Member Posts: 52
    jpk257, thanks for the info...

    I too am looking to change out my tires, but didn't want to get anything that would cause the ride to get rougher, or cause more noise.

    And, as I was expecting, the cost may be expensive, so I didn't want to spend money to get better looks, but degrade the ride.

    Anyone else have experience changing out their factory 30" tires, for 31"'s? If so, what make model tire did you get, and how did you get rid of your factory tires?
  • keatskeats Member Posts: 412
    At one time I heard that the Sun Rider was actually designed for folks who had hard tops only...a buddy of mine ordered one and sent it back because it requires some drilling of holes for the Sun Rider feature to work. In principal, though, I think it is a really cool top.
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