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A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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Comments

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 31,964
    Has anything transpired since asking about your vibration problem? I noticed a nice number of responses with a few having an extreme amount of details

    Yes, I am greatful for the responses to my question, and I don't like to waste peoples times...many of the replies were very detailed and I believe they are helpful.

    I took the car out on the highway today and slight "shimmy" is a good description...that was a word I hadn't thought of using, but that was in one of the replies.

    I asked a friend who is pretty knowledgeable too, and he said the tires I have probably last for 30K miles. I have 25K on them now.

    When I went out the "shimmy" was very slight, I don't think 90% of the population would even detect it. We are going away for a week, taking a plane, so I am going to try the car on the highway when I get back.

    If it is still there, I'll have it looked at, and I think it will mean new tires and an alignment, judging from the information that came in.

    Or, and you guys can help me decide....I live in Canada and we will be driving to Florida in November. If I drive to Florida I can get 4 tires for about 20% less and it will be closer to 30K miles. However, I am not sure that is worth the risk...like a blow out and trying to find 4 run-flat-tires in the middle of I-75 somewhere during a snow storm.

    I'd welcome any advice.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 31,964
    .thinking of a few exchanges way back in the early 60000's in the Frontlines with Richard and someone

    No problem. The other day I heard a grammatical expert on the radio and he said English is a changing language and is so dynamic because it is flexible and we shouldn't get hung up on little grammatical or spelling mistakes. It's the thoughts and ideas that are most important.

    Besides, I have mellowed a lot since the arguementative days (I am sure that isn't spelled correctly) and try to add to the conversation, hopefully in a positive way.

    I came over because of roadburner saying how many posts were posted in a day...more than frontlines most days. It's actually a good balance for me, some more general comments on cars over there, and some tech talk over here. I like both....we'll see how it goes.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    Or, and you guys can help me decide....I live in Canada and we will be driving to Florida in November. If I drive to Florida I can get 4 tires for about 20% less and it will be closer to 30K miles. However, I am not sure that is worth the risk...like a blow out and trying to find 4 run-flat-tires in the middle of I-75 somewhere during a snow storm.

    It all depends on how much risk you're comfortable with.

    Some years ago, I picked up a nail in one of my tires. Was leaving for a 1500 mile road trip a couple of days later. Took the car to the dealer; they recommended new tires all around (AWD requires this). I refused and took the car to my local tire shop. They repaired the tire and I took the trip. Not a single problem.

    Ended up buying new tires several months later.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    It all depends on how much risk you're comfortable with.

    http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-94933.html
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    edited June 2013
    That’s the best word to describe the way I feel about the effort that was put into diagnosing a problem on a 2004 Focus we looked at yesterday. The car is part of an estate and the customer wanted it looked at for a yellow ABS lamp so that they could sell it in good faith.

    Just about anything we do anymore when it comes to doing diagnostics requires pulling codes not just from the ABS module in this case, but from every module on the car. The only codes found were in the instrument cluster and in the airbag module and they were for a low battery condition. The battery is bad, and I had to keep a charger connected for the diagnostics to take place. The ABS module had no codes at all, but the yellow lamp for it was illuminated. We often find a loss of communication can do this, but there should be an accompanying "U" code in the instrument cluster and there wasn't one. Going into the bi-directional controls I confirmed that I could command the lamp on and off inside the cluster. However there was no data pid to report if the lamp was in fact commanded on or if it was falsely on, so that meant it was time for a schematic and to hit the books to be sure how this circuit works.

    Pin 44 of the ABS module connects to the instrument cluster with a black wire with a red trace. Looking at the schematic, the circuit goes into the cluster through the lamp and then into a module. By the way it's drawn it looks like the module inside the cluster provides power to the lamp and the ABS module grounds it to turn it on. It took some to locate the testing routine for that lamp control, and it was under the instrument cluster diagnostic section of service information, and not the ABS diagnostic section. Ford's routine is to take techs by the hand and lead them to the problem and so they have the tech blindly do step #1, get the result and they send the tech to the next step based on the first test result. The rarely if ever describe the circuits operation like I'm about to do as I write this.

    Fords first step is to disconnect the ABS module and inspect the lamp to see if it’s on or off. To do that you have to remove the battery, the battery tray, and take the power distribution box loose on the firewall. Now using a long hooked tool the tech can reach the release lever and rotate it forward and then upwards to disengage the connector. Now the car needs re-powered either by putting the battery back in or as I did with the battery charger that was already connected. Turning the key on the lamp was still lit. That had the trouble tree direct me to the second step. Now I had to ground pin 44 with a fused jumper lead and re-inspect the lamp. It was still on but I did something that Ford doesn't say to do. I connected my oscilloscope to pin 44 and saw a 12v signal, noting that the lamp was on. Then I grounded it and saw the voltage pull to ground as it should and the lamp was again still on only now it should have been off.

    So at this point I know how the circuit works. The schematic is misleading and the lamp isn't in series with the ABS module. This is a comparator circuit and the module reads the voltage on that pin at the cluster and the voltage level on that circuit causes the lamp to be turned on or off by the module. If the circuit fails open or the ABS module fails then the lamp should be lit. Essentially the ABS module when it codes for a system problem opens that circuit and that results in the cluster turning the lamp on. The ABS module grounds that circuit to command the cluster to turn that lamp off. Which is why the next step that needed done was to confirm if the ABS module could control the lamp circuit or not. So it was now re-connected and the system commanded to run a KOEO (key on engine off) self test. When the test runs both the red brake warning as well as the yellow ABS lamps should flash on the cluster. The red brake warning lamp connects to pin 38 with a black wire green trace. By connecting my scope to that lead as well as being already connected to the pin 44 black wire with a red trace I could see the ABS module command the lamps to flash by grounding the circuits, but only the red warning lamp operated correctly, the yellow lamp just stayed on.

    OK, that's a slam dunk the instrument cluster is bad. Its getting the correct inputs, it can even command the output correctly. It's failing with the processing of the information. We got an estimate to repair the car together and tried to contact the customer. His cell phone went to voice mail so we left a message there. No-one answered his second number, and he didn't leave us his e-mail address. There was nothing we could do at that point but put it aside and do something else while we waited for him to call back.

    About three hours later he returned our call and we repeated the explanation of what was wrong and how we proved it. Then he said, "XXX for the part? Wow, can we get a used one and put in there or a remanufactured one instead of a new one?"

    That was a price for a reman, and used are out of the question especially since he wants to sell it to settle an estate and a used cluster would not display the vehicle mileage correctly. He told us that he would call us back after he talked to his wife because they didn't want to spend that much.

    About half an hour later he calls back and say's that he can buy a reman cluster for less than our price and he just wants us to install that one.

    Well the first problem with that is we can't stand behind a repair if we don't provide the materials. The second problem is the diagnostics took long enough that we didn't generate a profit there, and if we don't sell and install the cluster that we can source we won't be profitable there either. Thankless, thats the only word to describe how I felt at that moment. There really is only one legitimate choice and that's to button it all back up and send him down the road.
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 31,964
    http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-94933.html

    Wow, talk about the English language - it gets slaughtered over there on garage talk.

    But, the crowd over there is pretty upset that you could get sued for putting a plug in a tire. Of course, that is out of the question with run flats, but, what do you think about plugs cardoc?

    I have had plugs a few years ago - the last ones would be about 12 years ago, and I didn't have a problem. Would you advise someone to use a plug after that article?

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    Would you advise someone to use a plug after that article?

    Nope. Our insurance company required us to state that any tire repairs would only be speed rated patch/plug devices. Which BTW FYI if there is any repair the speed rating of the tire is voided.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2013
    Sounds like the Ford dealer screwed up on a tippy vehicle. I remember when shops quit plugging tires, but I had a tire plugged and patched not that long ago.

    Back to your road trip next November, Driver100, I guess I've done it both ways. We went to Detroit in January 2012. The Outback tires were old and not handling all that well (I even got the Subie stuck earlier that winter on a shoulder).

    Typical for me, I managed to get a flat on the Interstate. We were close enough to our destination so I put the space saver on, took the first exit and dawdled 50 miles to our friend's house. There was "plenty" of tread left eyeballing the tires, but I called around and got a new set.

    On the van, the wear bars were starting to sneak up to the top and I wasn't impressed with those tires either, so this last trip I replaced them before leaving town. I didn't have a 20% "surcharge" to think about though.

    In hindsight, I wish I had just done the Outback tires a year earlier. The last year I didn't have a flat on either car was 2008. I'm trying to get through the rest of 2013 without one. :shades:
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    Sounds like the Ford dealer screwed up on a tippy vehicle. I remember when shops quit plugging tires, but I had a tire plugged and patched not that long ago.

    So the fact that a couple years went by between the tire "repair" and there wasn't any reports of subsequent pressure loss or tire maintanence the dealership was responsible for the tire failing.

    Its important to recognize the lesson that experience taught. Don't plug tires, only patch/plug assemblies should be used because the tire has to come off of the wheel for inspection.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2013
    That's my take, yeah. Incorrect repair let water rust the cords in a couple of years, causing tire failure and a crash. There was a post-verdict settlement so who knows what the final dollar amount really was.

    My guess is that if you nose around the case files, part of the argument was that the tire companies were recommending that only patch/plug assemblies be done before the Ford dealer did it wrong. Inspection would be part of that and sealing the inner part of the tire would be another reason to patch it on the inside.

    Dropped the van off at my guy this morning to clean the throttle body and check the rear brakes. Went down my laundry list of maintenance items and when I had last had them done - transmission fluid, brake fluid, etc. He didn't recommend any of that be done.

    I really want to see this guy stay in business so I told him to change the oil and filter too. I think 2001 was the last time someone else did the oil on the van, unless it was done as part of another service. I'm 60 - maybe I'll just farm that out from now on too. :)
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 31,964
    I wasn't impressed with those tires either, so this last trip I replaced them before leaving town.

    I am really starting to think that saving 20% isn't worth it when we are talking about a 1500 mile trip. If a tire goes on a long trip it could take days to find a dealer that has 4 RFTs and the proper equipment to make the car run properly. All your thoughts are helping me decide.

    I will be going on a 70 mile drive tomorrow to the airport, so I'll check how the steering feels again.

    Is there a simple way to check tire wear without equipment...something about using a quarter?

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    edited June 2013
    A 2004 Ford Focus is probably worth around 4 grand. You didn't specify how much for a new instrument cluster? Doesn't make sense though to put a lot of money in a old car if you're not going to get it back when you go to sell it.

    What was the customers reaction when you told him to take his business elsewhere?
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Mine is the original oil --- maybe the issue is with the stuff you got when you had it changed. Since you have a lease -- why even think about it.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    What was the customers reaction when you told him to take his business elsewhere

    While it wasn't said like that the message is accurate, we can't continue if we don't supply the materials for all of the above reasons. At this time we haven't heard back from him as he weighs his options. The car is outside ready to be picked up.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2013
    RFTs do add a big wrinkle. Twice I've had to buy tires in the middle of nowhere in order to have a spare (and a happy wife). One of those was actually the right size too. :shades:

    Both times were up in Newfoundland, a decade apart, come to think of it. I gotta quit heading up your way. ;)

    This is kind of sad - High prices are driving more motorists to rent tires (LA Times)
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    I would have thought the best way to mitigate the extent of your losses, is to at least go ahead and install their alternately sourced part. Have them sign in black and white that they will pay for this installation and that they acknowledge there will be no wty due to your very reasonable condition that you simply can't wty parts that you do not source. Further, that if that part is faulty, they still must pay for install time.

    Well, doc, there is one very very common theme with the majority of challenges that darken your doors there in the shop. You'd be absolutely lost without that trusty scope.

    I sure wish I had even a 1/3 your knowledge of electronics. I struggle with it on a regular basis. Trying to find a couple capacitors for two DVR's that I need to fix in order to finalize a number of DVD's. Electrical company keeps going off, or dropping usual 120+ V to sometimes only 28, or even 70- 72 volts. This type of crap voltage isn't enough for a fridge to even cycle..sitting there buzzing and clicking :(..all it succeeds in doing is destroying all your appliances and electronics in your house. I like the old days were when the power went off it was OFF! And it stayed off until they were ready to turn it back on..not off and on, and low light dimming and buzzing 3 times within 30 seconds. Altho that is what took out the cap in the first DVR.

    But my problem is, I only know how to replace the capacitor, (and two transistors in the 2nd machine) due to burning signs and bulged caps. I don't have the backgrd to know why and how they work. Well...I do know a little but not enough to even really count...I know that caps retain voltage and are sorta like a battery or filter, and that transistors are basically switches, and diodes only let current flow one way, etc...the problem for me is how to make it all work in unison. I wish I had taken that trade in school.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    But hey...your last trip was quite uneventful.. unless you're gonna penalize us just cuz of a bit of fog.. :shades:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2013
    Had new tires. :)
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    edited June 2013
    I would have thought the best way to mitigate the extent of your losses, is to at least go ahead and install their alternately sourced part

    A shop can fail just as fast doing work too cheaply as they can doing no work at all. The labor alone isn't high enough to make ends meet and there are other customers waiting their turn to have their vehicle diagnosed and repaired.

    Self proclaimed consumer experts told people that it was OK for them to try and bring their own parts to a shop to have them installed. They were wrong, and they caused a lot of grief where there never needed to be any.

    Have them sign in black and white that they will pay for this installation and that they acknowledge there will be no wty due to your very reasonable condition that you simply can't wty parts that you do not source. Further, that if that part is faulty, they still must pay for install time.

    Experience has taught the lesson that the disclaimer is useless. In spite of what RB says, if a problem arrises and it eventually goes to court the cost to fight it alone whether we were right or wrong would be more than if I just went and paid the dealer to get and install a cluster out of my own pocket. Meanwhile we also lose on the street as the dissastisfied customer takes their liberty to trash our shop. All of this together (and more points if I have to bring them up) makes for walking away the only correct answer once the customer starts to take us down that path.

    Well, doc, there is one very very common theme with the majority of challenges that darken your doors there in the shop. You'd be absolutely lost without that trusty scope.

    I don't think you mean that the way it comes across. I wouldn't be lost without it, but not having it would make a lot of the things we do more difficult. It's simply just one tool in the box, just like the scan tools, the information system, and of course the experience and training that all come together to work through a problem like that one.

    The Mazda Tribute that a transmission shop sent me for a wiring issue had an open ground circuit for the turbine speed sensor. The PCM could code for the circuit fault, but as I havei said before, the computer can't test past its connector. It only knows that there should be a signal there under certain conditions and the signal was missing. From there its up to a tech to find out why. The ground circuit failure was inside the connector for the sensor itself. Tomorrow I'll have a new pigtail for it and its an easy repair.

    I sure wish I had even a 1/3 your knowledge of electronics. I struggle with it on a regular basis

    Hmmm one third....
    Well this is where I studied electronics in 83-84. http://www.cie-wc.edu/request-info.aspx?gclid=COu_lO733rcCFYKd4AodaCUAGg

    From there you'll have to add the years of hands on experience yourself. :shades:
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    Well just got off the phone with him. He had us order the cluster.
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 31,964
    This is kind of sad - High prices are driving more motorists to rent tires (LA Times)

    Getting a flat tire in Newfoundland is better than hitting a Mosse on the road, you gotta count your blessings.

    I checked out that article about people renting tires...maybe that's how I should get to Florida. I guess if people rent a TV that they could buy for $500, and pay $30 a month for 36 months and are willing to pay $1080 for that same TV, then it can be done with tires too.

    Trying to find the right tire somewhere in Newfoundland is making me think more and more about just getting the tires before leaving for Florida in November.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • ray80ray80 Member Posts: 1,655
    Good, that's the way it should be
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    Ya, but didn't that memory/purchase happen on your side of the border?? Ya can't put that one us, just cuz decided to include Cda in your travels ;) ...and hey!..what about the fact that you did way more miles on your side than here?? Nice try, Steve :P
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    that's the way it should be

    Why's that?
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    edited June 2013
    Hey..that's great news! And just like Ray said..the way it should be..

    You know what is still a bit frustrating about that entire scenario, is the fact the instrument cluster was made so damn cheap it can't even last 10 years.. Plus, I can't imagine them being all that complicated in the first place. If a trace board line was injured during install then a few years of temp changes could pull it apart, and then that one could likely visually be seen. I've had success with soldering a trace, altho admittedly it was on a portable phone handset and an older one so fairly big stuff to work with. (compared to cell phones sorta thing..it was still pretty dang fiddly..I had 3 magnifying glasses stacked up and even my smallest soldering tip was huge where I was trying to use it. The solder flowed a hair and then I had to cut it)
    I guess it could also have been a chip on a mini board, and to re and re one of those you would need a full soldering station etc. Do you have that in your repertoire? Even still, try to find a chip on its own...the whole dang industry is designed to fill landfill sites instead of repair and recycle. It's the way this world is now.. :sick:

    edit - altho as for the cheap cluster...to be fair..who knows...someone might have boosted that 2004 some year and reversed the cables for a second...that kinda thing is not the car's fault and it sure can cause grief on down the road with electronics..
  • ray80ray80 Member Posts: 1,655
    'that's the way it should be

    Why's that? '

    Cardoc diagnosed the problem, he should get the work (and $'s) to fix it
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    The customers concern was on cost. So, he "should" pay for the repair if he can't afford it, just to make cardoc happy?
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2013
    Yeah, I've only purchased a half set of tires up your way over the years. And no, didn't get either tire at Canadian Tire (although I have a great electric kettle from them).
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 31,964
    . And no, didn't get either tire at Canadian Tire (although I have a great electric kettle from them)

    Canadian Tire stores are highly successful. They used to sell their own brand of tires at one time, but, people like the name brands.

    I once got Esso (now Exxon) tires for my 81 Cutlass. They were called Atlass tires and it ruined the whole car.....I hated that car after I had those tires put on. I'm not big on no-name stuff, if it isn't good you don't know who to blame.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I always liked them, but I sure have heard a lot of grumbling about them too. Big target I suppose.

    Couldn't stand it; decided to do the oil change myself. My guy okay'd the brakes, cleaned the throttle body and redid my air filter. My filter box has warped over the years and isn't too good. He couldn't find anything else to mess with. $44.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,254
    I had a 2004 Focus that had the trip odometer go out after my wife took it off roading(kind of an exaggeration).
    It was replaced under warranty and was in the 350-375 dollar range.
    I do remember they had to pre program the miles into the odometer and they ended up about 30 too low.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    Mine is the original oil --- maybe the issue is with the stuff you got when you had it changed. Since you have a lease -- why even think about it.

    Just a curiosity more than anything, I'm certainly not worried. Mine has always been dark/dirty from the factory fill through 4-5 changes.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    edited June 2013
    The customers concern was on cost. So, he "should" pay for the repair if he can't afford it, just to make cardoc happy?

    Where would the software industry be without some kind of protection for IP? For a long time the laws weren't enforced, or at least it seemed that way and pirating of software was almost accepted as the norm. Today the software industry takes IP very seriously and we see significant enforcement of laws that protect the companies that produce software. Its frustrating as a small business for us to buy software and only get to have a license to use it for a given period of time and then it turns off ensuring constant cash flow for the I.P owner.

    Our trade literally produces IP with that diagnosis in the same way that you writing a program does (iirc you are in the software industry, correct?). But not only is there no protection for us, its still widely accepted that once we produce given information, we are no longer the owner of that information. What happens to us is exactly what would happen to a company who's software gets pirated and then sold for a fraction of what that company needs to generate a profit.

    Now of course what I wrote here amounts to only the first thoughts or draft towards answering your question. Today the guy gets to do whatever he wants with the information provided and its simply assumed that we have been fairly compensated for our effort. The facts are the repairs still heavily subsidize the diagnostic portion of the shop visit and that's why you see me working two jobs (the shop and teaching) to try and keep pace. That also is one of the underlying reasons that techs who do the stuff described in that first thankless post are uncommon. There really isn't a reasonable return for the efforts that we have had to put into our careers.

    Again, this is just the first thoughts and I will need some time to polish this up and better present the full picture.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2013
    One thing you'll have to sort out is how software is usually sold to the general public. I license Word and that just gives me the right to use it. The work product produced is mine and I can sell that, but I can't reverse engineer the product and sell it. At most I can sell the license.

    I buy parts and service from the auto shop. A diagnosis is information I'm buying, but there's not a license restricting how I can use that information.

    A doc tried to sell me a part when I broke my leg. I declined but paid for the diagnosis and his other conservative treatment (didn't want a plate and screws. :) )
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    The ground circuit failure was inside the connector for the sensor itself.

    So, another connection/wiring problem. Seems to be a recurring theme here.

    Out of curiosity, how many of the electrical problems that you come across would you estimate are due to connector, connections, and wiring? Under wiring, I would include circuit card (PWB) problems such as cracked traces on instrument clusters, cold solder joints, etc.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Its frustrating as a small business for us to buy software and only get to have a license to use it for a given period of time

    Well, technically, if you read the shrink wrap license or end user license agreement, it probably says that you do not own the software; that the maker of the software retains full rights to the software; and that you are just purchasing the right to use that software. Furthermore those license agreements also probably state that the software is not guaranteed to do anything, and that the company is immune from any kind of legal action should the software cause harm.

    That goes way beyond IP protection.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >At most I can sell the license.

    Are you even able to do that? Wasn't there a problem about Microsoft not allowing transfer of Windows licenses by sale by the original user?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    that the maker of the software retains full rights to the software; and that you are just purchasing the right to use that software.

    So how do you think consumers are going to react when the manufacturers time out the license to operate the fuel injection or other system software in their cars? (hypo)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Yeah, I think I've read that Windows 8 is tied to the motherboard so you'd have to sell it with the software. :-) Probably depends on the version; with a system builder version you can probably do whatever you want and still get support.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    Out of curiosity, how many of the electrical problems that you come across would you estimate are due to connector, connections, and wiring?

    Nearly 100% of the ones that are referred to me by other sources and just about 50% of the ones where I get to be the first one to see the car. There are quite a lot of events that the diagnostic routine leads straight to the circuit fault, it gets repaired and no parts need to or get replaced.

    The Tribute was a fine example of how this quite often works out. With the diagnostic rate, and then the labor rate even though I did have to use a "pigtail" to repair the failed circuit we won't really make money on the repair unless she becomes a regular customer and we get to have the tires, suspension and engine performance work that her car still needs. Competition and consumer pressure forces the pricing to be too low to stand alone.

    Under wiring, I would include circuit card (PWB) problems such as cracked traces on instrument clusters, cold solder joints, etc.

    I'm not including those as wiring issues, to me those are component issues. While some components can be repaired you quickly learn that without a real way to test the repair other than to put the part back in the car and run it for a few weeks worth of cycles you leave yourself wide open to forcing the customer to be your test bench and make it likely that they will have to bring the car back "for the same thing". Combine that with no ready reference for whether a particular chip or item on the board inside the component has a durability issue or not and we would probably have more failed repair attempts than the business can tolerate. So the best choice is to have someone who specializes in the component repair to do that, while we make sure that the rest of the car is operating correctly.

    Well anyway, the cluster showed up late thursday and it will go in today. Did I mention that the battery is bad on the Focus? (I'm pretty sure that I did) He's going to replace that himself, that or he's probably going to have a parts store do it for him.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    So the best choice is to have someone who specializes in the component repair to do that, while we make sure that the rest of the car is operating correctly.

    For something like an instrument cluster, the economics of repair sort of works since the new parts are expensive, but even so, there's only a few online places that do that work and I bet most broken clusters get replaced with new ones (assuming parts are available).

    But for something like a blower resistor on my van, it wouldn't be worth turning on the soldering station at a dedicated shop, much less having a general repair shop try to fix a broken trace on it (yeah, mine is solid state).
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 31,964
    Great article ......bmw owner having the same kind of problem I am having at 12k miles (19K kms). He says BMW is telling him not to rotate tires and Bridgestone says to the tires.

    This guy has the same problem I am having, noise and vibration fo=rom premature wear. I would prefer not to have these run flat tires.

    Wheels.ca ; bmw - to rotate tires or not to rotate tires?

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    In my line of work, things like instrument clusters and ECUs are considered assemblies, or units. Components are the individual things that go into making up those assemblies, and include capacitors, resistors, transistors, diodes, and integrated circuits.

    But, that distinction is really not germane to what I was poking at, and that is the fact that it is the interconnects between components or assemblies that are the major cause of failures. The interconnects are the weak link.

    Your experience closely follows that of my industry. We see very few actual failures of components, unless there has been an over voltage or short circuit condition that was unanticipated and so not protected against. Most of our failures are with the interconnects, either on assemblies (solder joints, PWB traces), or in the wiring/cabling/connectors that interconnect those assemblies.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    edited June 2013
    If you don't have a staggered wheel tire set you should rotate them. The following article is courtesy of my friend Mike Miller(Techical Editor for Bimmer and Roundel magazine):

    Tire Rotation Examined
    By Mike Miller

    Initially, if your BMW has staggered tire and wheel sizing, meaning the rear tires are bigger than the front tires, click the little box in the upper right hand corner of your screen. You can’t rotate your tires anyway.

    BMW presently recommends against rotating tires. Here’s why: In the US, it's normal to bend wheels occasionally, to one extent or another. And not all tires anywhere in the world are perfectly round. When a technician mounts and balances new tires, during the balancing process he will typically note which tire and wheel assembly is the "roundest", i.e., which has the least runout and requires the least weight to achieve 000 on the balancer. These two "roundest" assemblies he will mount at the front owing to BMW's incredible sensitivity to wheel balancing issues.

    Then, down the road, the owner or another well-meaning tech rotates the tires front-to-rear. Next thing you know Old Jed's a millionaire -- you've got a vibration in the steering wheel. The reason is that one of the tire and wheel assemblies formerly at the rear and now at the front are not entirely round. If a technician rotated the tires, the customer then brings the car back to the shop complaining of a vibration, requiring a road test, dismounting, balancing, more road testing, etc. Often the customer will balk at paying for the additional work.

    Moreover, at BMW dealerships, the customer satisfaction index (CSI) is hugely important in dealer relations with BMW of North America. When NA does a random CSI call on a service customer, scenarios like the foregoing result in comments like, "Well, I had my car at Big Mega Dealer and now I have a front-end vibration! So, I guess I can’t give them a high score now can I?" The system is not set up for further explanation, and without that further explanation, the customer input impacts negatively on the dealer’s CSI score. Eventually dealers complained to BMW of North America, and the end result is the no-rotation policy.

    The thinking is, when you have a BMW that doesn't shake, leave it alone.

    Now, armed with this knowledge, if you want to rotate your tires front-to-rear, there's no doubt that you'll get longer tire life. Just be aware of the possible balancing ramifications.

    The presumption that the customer is incapable of understanding, or unwilling to understand, these issues is, unfortunately, often correct. However, Roundel Tech Talk takes the approach that it is better to at least attempt to educate people rather than throw out the baby with the bath water.

    © 2002 Mike Miller

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    This guy has the same problem I am having, noise and vibration from premature wear. I would prefer not to have these run flat tires.

    Fixed it for ya....

    To get the performance out of the tires as if you want to drive it like your always racing someone, you unfortunately have to give something else up. The author is correct, and side to side rotation will help a lot. The staggered sizes of course force that to be the only option. At least if they aren't full directional tires you have that option because that allows for the reversal of rotation. If you have full directional, now you actually have to dismount and re-mount and balance the tires to "rotate" them, and that is a waste of time IMO. Being run-flats, I can't even do that for my customers. I don't sell enough tires to justify a $4000 upgrade to my tire machine. (Let alone drop $10,000+ for a new first class version)
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 31,964
    Tire Rotation Examined
    By Mike Miller


    Thanks for the article...interesting. What do you think about RFTs? It isn't a deal killer for me, but if I like an Audi, MB or Jag, next time around, that could tip the balance.

    I don't think the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. I like the fact you don't have to change a tire on a busy highway or in the middle of nowhere, but, you could be stuck waiting to get new tires if one goes, and if one goes you will probably need 4.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    I run RFTs on my wife's 3er; I have a winter and summer set of tires/wheels. If I get a car with RFTs they will be replacet with conventional tires ASAP; I'll just buy one of BMW's M Mobility kits(or its Continental Tires equivalent) and throw it in the trunk.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    Then, down the road, the owner or another well-meaning tech rotates the tires front-to-rear. Next thing you know Old Jed's a millionaire -- you've got a vibration in the steering wheel. The reason is that one of the tire and wheel assemblies formerly at the rear and now at the front are not entirely round. If a technician rotated the tires, the customer then brings the car back to the shop complaining of a vibration, requiring a road test, dismounting, balancing, more road testing, etc. Often the customer will balk at paying for the additional work.

    Moreover, at BMW dealerships, the customer satisfaction index (CSI) is hugely important in dealer relations with BMW of North America. When NA does a random CSI call on a service customer, scenarios like the foregoing result in comments like, "Well, I had my car at Big Mega Dealer and now I have a front-end vibration! So, I guess I can’t give them a high score now can I?" The system is not set up for further explanation, and without that further explanation, the customer input impacts negatively on the dealer’s CSI score. Eventually dealers complained to BMW of North America, and the end result is the no-rotation policy.


    Let's see if I have the rules of this game correct. If I had written the above paragraphs, I would be making excuses but when someone else writes them its acceptable. Check...
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    edited June 2013
    Let's see if I have the rules of this game correct. If I had written the above paragraphs, I would be making excuses but when someone else writes them its acceptable. Check...

    Life is hard...
    In Mike's example the tech isn't doing anything wrong- and Mike isn't attempting to justify lazy, sloppy, or incompetent work. There are no "wrong numbers". Also, I've never attempted to justify the flawed CSI metric that BMW(and most all other manufacturers ) utilize.

    Perhaps later I'll post one of Mike's comments that addresses poor service...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    Also, I've never attempted to justify the flawed CSI metric that BMW(and most all other manufacturers ) utilize.

    Well what do you know, There's something we agree on!
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