A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

stever · June 2013

I thought I felt a little ground tremor this morning. :shades:

My wife took the van an hour up the road this morning. First real drive she's had in it since the timing belt adjustment and throttle body cleaning. I'm hoping she has a good drive. If not, that 200k goal of mine may fade away.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2013

You guys should spend a few days in the Edmunds' ANSWERS section and just see some of the "diagnoses" people receive from...ahem..."technicians". Doc would choke on his sandwich.

Things like (paraphrase)--"he put a screwdriver on the valve cover and said I needed new camshafts"

OR

"the mechanic replaced the throttle body, the MAF sensor, the 02 sensors, the coils, the crankshaft sensor, new fuel pump and filter, and the car still stalls.."

roadburner · June 2013

I am contemplating returning to my roots(I came from a "Ford family") and picking up a Focus ST. What is your opinion of the EcoBoost motor installed in that car? I'd probably drive it for several years before I flipped it to my son.

thecardoc3 · June 2013

Don't know that much about them as far as if there are any issues with them to be concerned about. Plus with the ~~free~~ pre-paid maintenance and longer warranties, it will be at least two years before I'm likely to see one in the shop and five years or more before I get to diagnose and fix anything on one of them.

Ford has done some things a little different from the other manufacturers. There are more fuel system components that can be reused if they must be removed during servicing. Ford has elected to reduce the reversion tendencies which should tend to keep the intake valves cleaner than other manufacturers.

If you have specifics as to what you are interested in knowing I can do some research, but otherwise have to leave them at no-news is good news.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2013

Ecoboost Woes

roadburner · June 2013

If you have specifics as to what you are interested in knowing I can do some research, but otherwise have to leave them at no-news is good news.

Thank you for your help; the only complaint I've run across on the ST forums is an issue with the rear motor mount allowing too much engine movement- but Ford already has a TSB which addresses the issue.
Thanks again.

roadburner · June 2013

So far the engine used in the ST appears to be relatively problem free, but-like any new car purchase-you can get a bad one or a good one.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2013

That's good to hear. I haven't heard all that much about the car other than that it is way fun. I bet, too, that it would remind me of my MINI, because I hear it has some serious torque steer. But gee, 252 HP, that's a "hot hatch" all right!

crkyolfrt · June 2013

Not only are Escapes and Fusions selling well despite the recalls, but Ford also is adding a 1.5-liter four-cylinder that it makes elsewhere to the lineup because it canÕt make enough 1.6-liter EcoBoost engines to keep up.

Does this statement from that article make sense to anyone?

thecardoc3 · June 2013

I'll add more to this a little later but scanning through the recall TSB I found the labor time that it will pay the tech to be .3 hrs. A little further down as the reflash process was being detailed as to how the the steps were to be performed was the line, "This process can take up to one hour"....... :sick:

driver100 · June 2013

Does this statement from that article make sense to anyone?

Translation:

Even in spite of Ford having to recall Ecoboost engines because of certain problems people are still buying the cars like hotcakes.

To keep up with demand, Ford will put an old plant into action to produce more engines. For some reason, they can't duplicate the 1.6 - litre engines, so will just make 1.5s and hope nobody notices or cares.

How is that gimme...or do you want it in Canadian?

Well, eh, those Ecoboost are selling like poutine these days.

To fill demand Ford will do a switcheroo play, kind of a Mike Duffy-Pamela Wallin rip-off move, and they will quietly give some consumers a 1.5 engine instead of a 1.6. No one will notice half a litre missing anyway. Ford will advertise it as being better on fuel..maybe sell it at a premium price.

Gimme, hope that explains it.

thecardoc3 · June 2013

To keep up with demand, Ford will put an old plant into action to produce more engines. For some reason, they can't duplicate the 1.6 - litre engines, so will just make 1.5s and hope nobody notices or cares.

You make it sound like building a different engine is as easy as baking a wheat bread instead of a white bread.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that there are significant changes going into building the 1.5 as compared to the 1.6.

jayrider · June 2013

My Dad had a bakery and making good bread that had consistent quality was far from easy. Those who do it right are true artisans having to deal with variations in ingredients, temperature, humidity and ovens.

driver100 · June 2013

You make it sound like building a different engine is as easy as baking a wheat bread instead of a white bread.

Different bread is difficult to make, apparently - thanks Jay. Actually I thought it was an older design engine that Ford was bringing back just to meet demand.

However, you are correct, it is a much improved engine, one advantages of the new engine is consumers can get tax breaks in certain countries where 1.5 is the cut off point.

The engine is more efficient and quieter too. Full details at;
New Ford 1.5 litre engine

thecardoc3 · June 2013

LOL, I love it.. :shades:

jayrider · June 2013

You've been asking for it -- glad you enjoyed it. :P

thecardoc3 · June 2013

A technician on another forum has been going through a tough time. In the last month, he has lost four family members.(all separate incidents/issues) His boss had been out of the country for about six weeks and got back to work yesterday. He called this tech into his office to find out why he missed so much work. Upon hearing the explanation his only response was people die in his country everyday and the tech was left in shock over the owners attitude.

How would you react if you were that tech?

The consensus form the people who responded to him is that it's time to grease the wheels on his tool box. BTW. This tech is a real top gun and can handle anything that comes through the door, plus support the other techs working in that shop.

stever · June 2013

His country? Sounds like it's time for some sensitivity training.

Careers are kind of like interstate driving. You always need to have an exit plan so you don't get hit if something happens. When you are in a financial position to give notice and leave a job when someone goes Dilbert on you, it lessens your stress and ironically, can make you a better employee.

After the tech quits, suggest he take some time off before jumping into the next full-time job. Have him take over your shop for a couple of weeks - you need a vacation too.

srs_49 · June 2013

Don't know all the details (how long he's been with the current shop, where he lives & what the job market for techs is like in his area, what his salary requirements are, ...), but the best time to look for a new job is while you still have one.

Don't know how easy it would be for him to just ignore/avoid his boss.

That said, I've never had an immediate supervisor/manager with that sort of attitude.

crkyolfrt · June 2013

I'd tell him.."Well of course people die everyday. Everywhere. Maybe if you had had to travelled back to your country FOUR times in as many weeks to bury FAMILY members, then maybe you'd have some inkling the mental state I've been in lately. Now go %&^#$ yourself".

Of course that is the "comeback" reply...I'm reminded of Seinfeld..years ago...in fact the episode was called The Comeback. Throughout the episode it was centered around George always thinking of the best comeback, but long after the fact...

It's the ol' hindsight being 20/20 thing..

Without the benefit of time for his insensitivity to sink in...I'd have been in shock too I think..
Sounds like the boss is none too bright to boot.. and worse...probably bosses the wife around and kicks the dog when home.. :sick:

thecardoc3 · June 2013

When you are in a financial position to give notice and leave a job when someone goes Dilbert on you, it lessens your stress and ironically, can make you a better employee.

This is a trade that is dominated by the attitude that has shop owners afraid to pay the techs enough that they could some day afford to move out and go into business for themselves and compete against the original shop owner.

After the tech quits, suggest he take some time off before jumping into the next full-time job. Have him take over your shop for a couple of weeks - you need a vacation too

Looks good on paper, until you write down the real numbers that it would cost to do that. I'd be on the hook for $8500 in workman's comp fees the day he moved his tool box in, and that's just the beginning.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2013

I wouldn't react to it, just quietly start looking for another job. Like it or not, he may need a good reference for his new job.

Beyond the age of about 12, it's very hard to change the ingrained behavior and attitudes of people--it's POSSIBLE but it's an effort we usually reserve for those friendships we wish to keep.

stever · June 2013

It is an area with a few land mines, but you may be able to do an independent contractor deal and avoid having to pay workers comp. You'd need some local advice since state laws vary. But a lot of mechanical trade workers don't have workers comp (which is a bit ironic, since a lot of those trades involve some risk of injury).

You could even let him run his own books while you are enjoying the beach or mountains for a couple of weeks (link - Example 3).

busiris · June 2013

I would use your approach.

There are jerk bosses everywhere, in every business and trade.

My first job out of college was in a company that, looking back on it, was run more like a fiefdom. The sales group were the princes, and the duties of everyone else were to fulfill their desires and correct their mistakes.

What the company president did right was to insist on hiring really bright individuals across the board. What he did wrong was to not realize bright people could figure out the two-tier treatment company employees were getting, and then act in their own best self-interest.

This wasn't a small company, BTW. In the mid 1980's it was ranked in the top 5 largest privately held employers in SC (Milliken Industries was number 1).

By the early 1990's, these bright individuals started leaving in droves, taking huge chunks of customers as they left. I made my exit in 1989. The company entered into a "forced" merger in the mid 1990's in order to survive.

Even the sales organization started feeding on itself and self-destructed before it was all over.

I learned so many valuable lessons from that experience that were never taught in any business school I attended.

thecardoc3 · June 2013

was run more like a fiefdom

That's a really good word for what life is like for many techs.

What the company president did right was to insist on hiring really bright individuals across the board. What he did wrong was to not realize bright people could figure out the two-tier treatment company employees were getting, and then act in their own best self-interest

How many times have you seen me say that we can't attract the people that we need?

fintail · June 2013

Find another job and get hired, then tell the "boss/owner" where he, his wife, mother, kids, etc can stick it, on the last day. Bridges can be burned, but always wait til the right time.

Or a good reply would be something like "your country is a marginally developed hellhole that doesn't value human life, you obviously came here to escape it, nobody will complain if you go back permanently".

busiris · June 2013

I'm not surprised the behavior I experienced and described earlier is spread across the entire employment spectrum. In fact, it was surprise me if it wasn't.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2013

Saw this question in ANSWERS, (see below) and I can't figure out what would cause so much pressure in the canister to cause this, since as I recall the purge solenoid is on top of the box. Any ideas? Defective canister?

"I have a 2000 GMC Sonoma that leaks gas from the purge solenoid. What causes this? When I loosen gas cap leak stops."

thecardoc3 · June 2013

There has to be more than just one problem for this to occur. The vapor separator at the top of the tank has to be stuck open to allow raw fuel to make it to the cannister. The cannister will be damaged by raw fuel, if he checks he will probably find bits of charcoal through the entire system. I'd be blowing the lines out to make sure to try and get all of the loose bits out if this has occurred. From there the vent valve (that's the one near the cannister) has to be stuck closed to allow the tank and cannister to pressurize sufficiently to end up pushing fuel all the way up to the purge valve, which is mounted on the right hand side of the engine if this is a 2.2l or right on the RH side of the intake manifold if this is the 4.3.

So at the least he has a leak at the purge valve, otherwise the fuel wouldn't come out there. He must have a clogged vent valve assembly, its a wonder why he isn't reporting that its difficult to get this to take fuel. The cannister has to be saturated and it is actually supplying the raw fuel. The vapor separator has to be failed.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2013

Ah, that makes perfect sense---MORE than one problem---of course!

I'll pass that along and thank you very much Doc!

Shifty

thecardoc3 · June 2013

Ah, that makes perfect sense---MORE than one problem---of course!

It's all speculation at this point, but I suspect someone likes to top off the fuel tank. The vapor separator's do fail on occasion but most people never notice it. The purge valve leaking fuel is strange, it should be completely sealed except for when the computer commands the system to purge, and then it should allow vapors (or in this case fuel) to be pulled into the engine.

The vent valves can cork closed in the event of excessive system pressure and will sometimes do that little trick when we are leak testing with the smoke machine. If they stick when we command it closed and put pressure into the system then that's not a concern and we simply need to bleed the pressure off of the tank and that allows the valve to open and vent again. In his case it has to be stuck closed or the filter clogged with dirt or maybe a cocoon if some bug got in there. If the vent valve was open like it should be except for when the PCM is testing the system, he should never build any pressure to force the gas out in the first place.

I few posts ago you mentioned a question where numerous repairs were done, and yet the car still had a problem. I saw that post as I do this one. This car easily is presenting with multiple issues and the "cause" is likely routine topping off of the fuel tank, plus the separator failed. I could see someone finding the purge valve leak (obvious), and maybe even also finding the clogged vent valve. But miss the bad vapor separator only to have the system fail again in the future. I didn't bother to comment on that earlier question that you quoted one because people can't tell the difference between talking about the technology and what it takes to diagnose and fix things like that from people thinking that I'm just making excuses.

Oh well, that's what this career has always been like anyway, maybe this will eventually allow people to see what I've been talking about.

roadburner · June 2013

It's all speculation at this point, but I suspect someone likes to top off the fuel tank.

You do that on my son's X3 and you'll get an intermittent tip-in stall for the first couple of minutes after a fill-up...

thecardoc3 · June 2013

I looked around the answers for that post to see how it was working out, and while I was there found this one and the following response.

I have a 2006 Toyota Prius. When I get the oil changed they fill it 1/2 inch over the fill line. Should I drive it like this?

I take it to Prius dealers. One has said NOT to drive it with too much and another says it won't hurt anything. Who do I listen to?

1/2 inch on the dipstick? I'd have it drained off.

She needs to have that done right away and make sure that who-ever services this in the future puts in the correct amount of oil. (iirc about 3.9qt)

What can happen is that the oil can cavitate (foam by mixing with air) or it can create too much pressure in the crankcase and put stress on engine seals.

Foam up, (aerate) the oil, yes. Stress the seals by creating excessive crankcase pressure, no, it won't do that. What it can do however is damage the transaxle.

That should get a few "Say Whats?" Yes, overfilling the engine oil can result in a damaged transaxle. I'll explain in a bit.

I dont' know how much 1/2 inch represents in oil volume so my answer is on the safe side.

The correct fill level is 1/4" below the top mark on the stick. The top dot is the maximum level and should not be exceeded.

A couple ounces over, no problem. 1 quart over----marginal. More than a quart, could be some trouble.

While traditionally there is room to overfill, the Prius isn't a traditional car. It's Atkinson cycle engine and low tension piston rings are very intolerant of over-filling. The rings can hydroplane on the excess oil allowing it to get into the cylinders, and the Atkinson cycle allows for some of the intake charge to be blown back into the intake. That means that engine oil that makes it past the rings gets blown into the intake as well. Eventually if you get enough of it, the engine can ingest some of the oil and fuel that collected in the intake and that results in fouled spark plugs and a misfire.

I wouldn't fret about it but I'd get it to them at your earliest convenience.

She needs to deal with it now. If the engine inhales the reversion residue and fouls some of the spark plugs it will end up creating a misfire. The transaxle consists of a planetary set which is the power split device, and two heavy electric motors. The sun gear goes to MG1, (Motor Generator) the ring gear goes to MG2 and the planet carrier to the ICE (internal combustion engine).

The engineers take into account the normal variations in crankshaft speeds and dampen the assembly sufficiently for them. That in fact is part of the reasoning (there are more reasons) for using the Atkinson cycle engine where the intake valve stays open well into the compression stroke ( almost 100 degrees crank after BDC). A misfire causes the crankshaft speed variations to be excessive and that causes thrusting of MG1 through the planet assembly and can destroy it. A misfire on one of these can make the planetary gear set rattle so loud that you will think the transaxle has already failed. Leave it like that long enough and it will fail and destroy the transaxle.

thecardoc3 · June 2013

I take it to Prius dealers. One has said NOT to drive it with too much and another says it won't hurt anything. Who do I listen to?

Almost forgot this line. Advice is given by the experiences that a particular shop (or individual) has had. The dealer saying don't drive it is closer to being correct for the reasons that I have stated. The one saying that it doesn't matter has obviously not experienced the failure first hand and that could be the result of the techs always doing the oil service correctly.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2013

I must respectfully disagree on one point of your otherwise excellent post--if you jam too much oil in a crankcase, it can cause seal leaks, and can also destroy a catalytic converter....perhaps, as you say, we have to indicate WHICH type of cars we are talking about when we discuss these symptoms.

So in the case of a Prius, you might be right, but in the case of a Porsche, I might be right, regarding the effects of overfill.

But I think we agree that overfill is not to be treated lightly.

In my own cars, any overfill is dealt with immediately--no exceptions.

thecardoc3 · June 2013

I must respectfully disagree on one point of your otherwise excellent post--if you jam too much oil in a crankcase, it can cause seal leaks, and can also destroy a catalytic converter

Define "too much"..

It does not create excessive pressure in the crankcase, between the fresh air breather inlet and the PCV system there is plenty of flow capability to prevent pressurization. Now shock loading if you literally have the oil being propelled at a seal, that's a different situation.

So in the case of a Prius, you might be right

Hmmm "might be".... There are two ways that a tech would know this happens, either experienced it personally or found out about it first hand through training. Fortunately for me it is the latter, I got and subsequently pass on the training first and then I started servicing these cars being well informed of the traps. BTW, the early Prius (2001-2004) if you used the wrong oil, and or over filled one could result in a no-start, won't crank condition.

mako1a · June 2013

I'm from another Edmunds site and I have a question on Ford engines.

When looking at F-150s, a lot of the King Ranch and Platinum trucks have the 3.6 Turbo engines. They came out in 2011 so they're still new by my thinking.
Are they any good? Would a 5.0 be a better choice for a long term keeper of a truck. I don't have any big towing needs, just wondering if 5.0 or 3.6 Turbo would last longer (years). Thanks, Dave

Mr_Shiftright · June 2013

"the early Prius (2001-2004) if you used the wrong oil, and or over filled one could result in a no-start, won't crank condition."

On some Audis, they won't run right if the wrong oil filter is used!

But yes, defining the term "too much" is very important. That's why the questioner who mentioned "1/2 inch over on the dipstick" left me with an unquantifiable term.

thecardoc3 · June 2013

But yes, defining the term "too much" is very important. That's why the questioner who mentioned "1/2 inch over on the dipstick" left me with an unquantifiable term.

That's about a full quart over.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2013

That's too much. If it were a '65 Chevy, I wouldn't be so worried--it would probably just vent through the open-air breather pipe.

thecardoc3 · June 2013

Similar to RB's question about the Focus ST, I really don't have much to go with to try and form much of an opinion about them. I like Fords approach to the technology and something interesting that they do is they have gone back to a speed density system instead of using a MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor. It is really important to use an oil that truly meets all the specs if you do decide to get one.

roadburner · June 2013

I like Fords approach to the technology and something interesting that they do is they have gone back to a speed density system instead of using a MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor.

I had a German Ford(AKA Merkur) Scorpio with the Cologne V6. Most of the European models used Bosch L-Jetronic fuel injection, but US cars got a speed density system.

jayrider · June 2013

All this chat of oil overfill got me out of the Lazy-Boy and into the garage to check the level of my 2010 Prius. Checked out fine -- so I made a pot of coffee and split a donut with my wife. By the time you read this I'll be back to relax-o-sizing in front of the old flatscreen.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2013

your work is done..go in peace my son :P

driver100 · June 2013

Checked out fine -- so I made a pot of coffee and split a donut with my wife.

Too bad humans don't have a built in dip stick to check their sugar levels so you know how much donut you can eat.

jayrider · June 2013

We do have a sugar dip stick of sorts. It's called a glucose monitor but "sticking" to half a donut instead of half a dozen donuts should keep things in balance.

thecardoc3 · June 2013

This car was sent to me by another shop. When they saw all of the codes that were set when the car failed its emissions test they felt uncomfortable trying to diagnose the car. The first check was to pull codes and I found P2106, P1295, P0171, P2187, P0174, P2189, P0101 and a P0504.

Your challenge here is to use what ever resources you have available to you to try to diagnose the car in one visit, and fix the car right the first time.

Any data that you would retrieve, or component that you would inspect ask about it and I'll answer what you would have found. Be specific on what you want to "inspect".

An example would be if a tire was going flat, you have to ask "If I inspected the tread of the tire, to try and locate a leak, would I find a screw, nail or other object in the tire". My answer would then be, yes or no and you'll have to decide what you would look at next based on that answer.

Going into this I expect to be able to demonstrate a number of different points. Keep track of your research time and how much time you think you would have to spend doing actual testing and inspections. Explain what your next step in the diagnostics would be and what you think you would find. When you think you have the final answer(s), post it(them).

Mr_Shiftright · June 2013

my first response would be to say that with that many codes thrown, one should test the ECM and its circuits right off.

However, looking up the codes, they are not randomly thrown---there's a pattern here---fuel mixture is screwed up.

I guess the first thing I'd do is start simple--- check for vacuum leaks, bad gas cap seal, loose oil filler cap, intake manifold leak, EVAP leaks.

roadburner · June 2013

I started up the '99 Wrangler and found that none of the gauges are working. TJs in particular are notorious for this problem; the culprit is almost always the sockets that the gauge cluster plugs into. I've had this issue rear its head more than once, but the failure mode has usually just involved the speedo and tach. I also noticed that the 12V dash outlet doesn't work. So, armed with my trusty DVOM, fuse tester, and test light it's once more into the breach. In a perfect world, treating the plugs/sockets and sockets with DeoxIT would buy me another 3-4 years of problem free cluster operation- but I have learned that when it comes to electronics nothing is ever as simple as it appears...

thecardoc3 · June 2013

However, looking up the codes, they are not randomly thrown---there's a pattern here---fuel mixture is screwed up.

OK.
P0171, P2187, P0174, P2189

But what about P2106, P1295 and P0101 and the P0504.?

I guess the first thing I'd do is start simple--- check for vacuum leaks, bad gas cap seal, loose oil filler cap, intake manifold leak, EVAP leaks.

How would you do that?

A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles