A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

isellhondas · July 2013

That Mini sounds like a few cars I've owned.

Great cars that I enjoyed but would never buy again.

Sounds like a clutch job would be pushing 3000.00!

fintail · July 2013

Just lease one. You'll pay more in the long run, but you'll have peace of mind, everything is covered, and you get to enjoy the newness.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2013

Well with 12.5 hrs labor you certainly don't want to skimp on replacement parts, so yeah, with a dual-mass flywheel and all the other goodies, you could run up a bill of $2400 on a MINI S clutch.

Could be worse--you could blow your Porsche 911 motor and take a hit for $25,000.

obyone · July 2013

Yeah but what's $25K on a $150K car?

roadburner · July 2013

Also you have to enjoy driving a skateboard--with sport suspension and 17" tires, this car rides hard on rough roads and pogo-sticks around a lot. On the highway, it's very competent and comfy for such a small car, and the BMW build-quality finally becomes apparent.

I was looking at a 2012 Clubman loaner at the Cincy dealer; just a vanilla Cooper but with all the options I want(Xenons/H-K Sound/Cold Weather Package) and no options that I don't want(big hole in the roof/slushbox). The problem for me is I'm not sure that I ever want to own another FWD car- and on top of that the Louisville Mini dealer is consistently booked 10-14 days in advance.

tjc78 · July 2013

14 days? So what if your brand new car has a problem that it can't be driven? I couldn't handle that!

Mr_Shiftright · July 2013

yeah but there are a lot of Porsche 911s that are only $25,000 cars now. So you lose the engine, you total the car.

Just saw a 2001 Porsche Boxster S come into my friend's shop. The guy JUST BOUGHT the car, and yep, the Intermediate Shaft Bearing wiped out the engine---typical Boxster issue...and that's an $18,000 repair. :surprise:

That's a case where LOW mileage was the worst possible choice, since this IMS failure either will, or will not, occur in the engine's early life.

Ironic in a way. :sick:

roadburner · July 2013

14 days? So what if your brand new car has a problem that it can't be driven? I couldn't handle that!

And believe it or not, the salesperson at the Louisville Mini dealer told me without prompting- I guess he didn't want irate customers coming back and chewing him out. So methinks that it would be a double whammy if you showed up in a nearly-new car from another Mini dealer. As for buying from the Louisville dealer, my salesperson was fine but the Sales Manager was an unmitigated jerk- they had a hail damaged Countryman that was going on its third week in the body shop and the guy wouldn't give a discount off MSRP because "The damage wasn't that severe."

roadburner · July 2013

yeah but there are a lot of Porsche 911s that are only $25,000 cars now. So you lose the engine, you total the car.

Same thing with a 944 if you break the rear window($4,000+labor)...

busiris · July 2013

Well I WOULD have felt silly about not realizing that the low stage fan wasn't working on the Mini Cooper....EXCEPT....on this diabolically designed MINI, there is a FAN FOR THE POWER STEERING!!

Yep, that's what fooled me. I heard a fan--and really what mechanic would say "oh, that's not a fan running"?

The power steering cooling fan bearing fried on my wife's 2005 Mini, and it sounded just like the electric radiator cooling fan bearing going out. At the time, like you, I had no idea that Mini used a cooling fan for the power steering unit.

Somewhere along the way, Mini figured out the fan needed a protective screen to keep out rocks, gravel and the like, and modified the fan to incorporate a protective screen.

Fortunately for us, all this occurred under warranty.

benjaminh · July 2013

"....Next time, if I buy this car again, it's getting pitched when the warranty runs out...."

I was just telling myself that the next time I got a new car I'd probably skip the extended warranty. But then I read a few pages of this thread. $18k engine repair? $3k Clutch? $1k minor AC work? Guess I'll buy the extended warranty after all. For $1100 you can be covered almost bumper to bumper for 8 years and 100,000. Seems worth it for the peace of mind.

roadburner · July 2013

For $1100 you can be covered almost bumper to bumper for 8 years and 100,000. Seems worth it for the peace of mind.

In my case however, it wouldn't have helped me a bit on any of my BMWs, as none of them has required more than minor repairs prior to 130K miles- as a matter of fact, I have yet to spend $1,100 for repairs on my 1995 3er track rat- maybe $400, tops. Prior to 130K my Bimmers have only required scheduled maintenance, brakes, and tires- and even after 130K only two have stuck me for repair bills over $1,000. I only wish that my Mazda had exhibited similar reliability over the first 100K miles.
YMMV, of course...

jipster · July 2013

Posting, reading, studying, got to do something when I can't sleep.

Try a Sealy Icomfort mattress. Supportive and still oh so soft. Like sleeping on a giant marshmallow. We've had ours for a little over a year. Best grand and a half I ever spent.

thecardoc3 · July 2013

We got a Sleep Number about six months ago and we both are very happy with it compared to what we used to have. But I still average less than six hours sleep a day. Considering that used to be right about four that's an improvement.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2013

"Somewhere along the way, Mini figured out the fan needed a protective screen to keep out rocks, "....

That's true but then they made it out of cheap plastic, which breaks easily from road debris, thereby causing the power steering fan to seize, thereby knocking out the fuse for that circuit, WHICH is the *same fuse* that operates the engine cooling fans, which causes the engine to overheat-----BRILLIANT!

FIX: An aftermarket aluminum shield for the power steering fan motor.

AC works really well now

benjaminh · July 2013

So for that lack of an aluminum shield, costing maybe $10, you could face a ruined engine?? Hmmm. Makes me wonder how good those BMW engineers really are...

Iirc you have the 1st generation. Is the 2nd generation like this too?

ohenryx · July 2013

For $1100 you can be covered almost bumper to bumper for 8 years and 100,000. Seems worth it for the peace of mind.

The cars requiring $18k engine repairs are NOT going to sell you an extended warranty for $1100. Far from it. Far, far, far, far, far, far from it.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2013

2nd generation is a turbo, not a supercharger but it's still pretty tight in there.

I think the 2nd generation MINIs are better in most respects--certainly they've improved the transmissions and clutches. I think trim parts still fall off them though. :P But then, trim parts seem to fall off most BMWs. Never ceases to amuse me how such great cars can miss the boat on basic build quality. You buy a car for $60K and you still get plasticky junk and cheesy little clips that break the minute you touch them (or as you are installing the new part to replace the old part which fell out).

Of course, after the mechanic replaces a bulb and then snaps in the assembly, and the damn clips break, guess who gets blamed?

benjaminh · July 2013

Good point. Wonder how much an extended warranty on a Porsche would be?

And how much would a new engine be for an Accord? I have no idea, but probably at least $5,000.

isellhondas · July 2013

Those warranty companies have to be smart and informed when they price their warranties.

A Honda Civic probably isn't going to cause much trouble and not be all that expensive to repair compared to a Porsche.

I remember warranties for anything European were VERY expensive and for good reason. A warranty for a Jetta was a lot more than one for an Accord or a Camry.

Audis, Volvos, Jaguars etc were the highest and on Land Rovers they wouldn't sell warranties for ANY amount of money.

You are simply buying an insurance policy. An expensive one.

Still, for many people they can and often do pay off, big time!

thecardoc3 · July 2013

http://www.edmunds.com/auto-warranty/third-party-extended-warranty-scams.html

The extended warranty programs can be so difficult to work with that our routine is to do the repair and the customer pays for it, while we do everything we can to meet the ~~warranty~~ insurnace companies requirements. What-ever they decide to pay then gets sent directly to the customer. At that point anything is better than nothing and the companies often help pay for the repair, but don't ever think that they will pay the whole bill, most of them go out of their way to make the transaction as unpleasant as it can possibly be.

The worst part about dealing with them is we don't sell their policies, so it's not like we made anything up-front with them to help compensate us for having to deal with all of the nonsense that they put us through.

My advice, buy CD with the money that would be spent on the policy. if something goes wrong and the car needs repaired, cash in the CD and that will either pay for the repair or at least help. If the car doesn't need a major repair, then after a few years, take your money and do what ever you want to with it.

busiris · July 2013

My advice, buy CD with the money that would be spent on the policy. if something goes wrong and the car needs repaired, cash in the CD and that will either pay for the repair or at least help. If the car doesn't need a major repair, then after a few years, take your money and do what ever you want to with it.

That's really good advice, on average.

After all, you're buying an insurance policy called a warranty plan, and the actuaries are quite good at identifying the odds of repairs.

Unless you're jinxed, the average owner will come out ahead by investing the $$$ rather than buying the "extended warranty".

Mr_Shiftright · July 2013

It's a bet. The underwriter is betting your car doesn't break, and you're betting it does.

Only problem is, on cars that seem like a "good bet" for you, the pile of chips you have to push into the center of the table could be quite tall.

busiris · July 2013

It's a bet. The underwriter is betting your car doesn't break, and you're betting it does.

Only problem is, on cars that seem like a "good bet" for you, the pile of chips you have to push into the center of the table could be quite tall.

IMO, the main difference is that actuaries are very good at separating fact from emotion. The average car buyer, at some level, has some emotional attachment to the vehicle he buys, or wants to buy.

A little bit like a player betting in LV that gets hooked in the game, just knowing the next pull of the handle is gonna pay off. The professional gambler doesn't think that way at all... Much more like the insurance actuary evaluates the situation.

srs_49 · July 2013

After all, you're buying an insurance policy called a warranty plan, and the actuaries are quite good at identifying the odds of repairs.

Exactly. And extended warranty/insurance policies are big money makers for those who sell them. That must tell something - that they must pay out significantly less than they take in.

It's a lot like going to a casino. Most/all of the games are set up to favor the house. Extended warranties are set up to favor the underwriter.

thecardoc3 · July 2013

But they can't find enough qualified people to fill them.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/ford-hiring-has-trouble-filling-white-collar-job- s-6C10722340

On top of that the people that they do attract don't have first hand experience looking at cars from the service and repair perspective. That's always been a problem and Shifty's description of what it took to address his Mini's AC problem is a good example of what happens when that aspect isn't considered throughout the design and engineering phases.

srs_49 · July 2013

But they can't find enough qualified people to fill them

And that should surprise no one.

1. The automakers took advantage of the fact that their white collar workers (including engineers) were not covered by a contract, and so were able to unilaterally reduce wages and cut benefits to those white collar workers. People have long memories (or they should).

2. Most companies, not just auto makers (despite all the rhetoric that comes our of the the HR departments about how how "our people are our most valuable resource"), consider engineers and other professionals to be a fungible resource - one that can be let go and replaced on a moment's notice with no impact to the company. Who wants to go work for a company like that?

3. Along with item 1, many companies view their engineering and design departments as cost centers first, and (maybe), secondarily, as the future source of of profits from new products sometime way off in the future. As a cost center, the short-sighted view is to squeeze.

4. I considered taking my electrical engineering skills to Detroit back in the late 70's/early 80's. This was back when when Detroit was just starting to ramp up the electronic content in their vehicles. But I would have had to take a salary cut to do so, so that was a non starter. The article thecarddoc3 referenced to alluded to that.

5. Finally, and the article also addressed this, Detroit has a lousy reputation (deservedly so) as a place to live and raise a family. Detroit's bankruptcy filing and the possibility that the state of Michigan may be on the hook for the pension and health care coats of Detroit's retirees leads people to think "even though I may not live in Detroit, my taxes will go up to cover all those unfunded pension liabilities". No thanks.

fintail · July 2013

Sometimes a "lack of qualified people" also means the employer is looking to receive something for nothing, such as demanding an arcane skill set or similar that was not previously required - and not willing to train a potential employee in that skill. Often the HR manager or similar who is publicly lamenting this lack of applicants doesn't have to maintain skills. No doubt moving to Michigan doesn't appeal to all, either.

crkyolfrt · July 2013

On top of that the people that they do attract don't have first hand experience looking at cars from the service and repair perspective.

On the other hand, just how much (engineering or otherwise) foresight is required to design an A/C compressor that can have its clutch serviced...or at least replaced?
Unless it was done deliberately. And that is my suspicion. Like...what did they save in length...maybe 1.5 mm? And with proper execution, there really doesn't need to be a space penalty of any dimension creating a serviceable component like an A/C compressor, as opposed to Bic-Lightering the thing when it screws up..

It is this very example that makes it so hard to believe that RB has had such good luck with his BMW's per dollar spent. Aside from reputation I have read about over the years, we've had a 3 series in the family, and in my opinion, they (BMW) are 100k mile cars. Tops. Unless you don't count a con$tant healthy degree of input buck$ thereafter.

srs_49 · July 2013

On top of that the people that they do attract don't have first hand experience looking at cars from the service and repair perspective

I'll give you ten to one odds that serviceability is not very high on the design engineer's priority list. With all the other things he has to consider (functionality, size, weight, cost/producibility), it's no wonder repair considerations ten years down the road are not on his radar screen.

In that sense, it's a failure of management to give proper weight to repaireability in the design phase.

thecardoc3 · July 2013

On the other hand, just how much (engineering or otherwise) foresight is required to design an A/C compressor that can have its clutch serviced...or at least replaced?

More than is typically applied.

Like...what did they save in length...maybe 1.5 mm?

What they saved is production cost.

crkyolfrt · July 2013

No doubt instruction is handed down from the top, but management should be concerned with measures they sign off on which can taint their brand's reputation when the consumer is considering their next replacement vehicle.

I'm in an odd position in that I could buy a GLK250 (mainly for the engine being a not just a diesel, but an unusually powerful and economical one) and its 4x4 and towing ability and the fact that no other more affordable brand is offering that combo. But I am drawn to a lowly little name plate, Kia, and even their entry level model, even tho it is not a diesel and worse, not 2WD, and will be noticeably noisier to ride in on the highway even if the ride and handling are not that bad for a cheap car. Why? Well...in some respects it is the simplicity of the car. I can still get rear drum brakes. And astonishingly I can replace a bulb if need be with my already good supply of 1157 bulbs. In a 2013 car! This might be a stand alone anomaly, I don't know but plan to check into things like this further. If I were to extrapolate on just that one example of Kia not abandoning things like 1157 bulbs just for the sake of change, which always translates to greater consumer costs down the road, then a person could ponder how great it would be to have maybe one of the last relatively simple cars to work on compared to what is left out there.

I'm not oblivious to appreciating engineering styles, feats and/or recognizing shortcuts, but I feel compelled to give credit where it's due, and to some personalities out there..even including some of the more idiosyncratic ones (me at times) a manufacture's decision to retain the use of old but proven competent parts like the use of 1157 bulbs which worked just fine for decades, and the prospect that maybe there are many other components of this entry level car that may also fall under the simplicity class of an 1157 bulb, start to take on a potential worth, greater than the sum of their parts. Factor in other important aspects like seat comfort and quality feeling switch gear (the signal lever spring resistance before slipping past the point of lane-change to locked switch position had a more tactile feel and resistance than a near 40k $ Subaru, and you have to recognize the value of a little car priced at 17k vs a near 50k MB. And remember, this consumer can buy either with cash.

So, the odds of me ending up in that MB with its complexity and change for the sake of change, and quite possibly also donning a non-serviceable A/C compressor, are probably pretty slim...but hey..now if I discover it has a few 1157 bulbs on board, well...ya just never know...but I ain't holdin' my breath on that one..

crkyolfrt · July 2013

What they saved is production cost.

Well of course...that is a given..
The arrogance and greed irritates me. It's already a frig $35k car!...that really has no more to offer than a 23-25k car and only that much cuz of the supercharger urge it has. And the name...ugh..

When you spend this much of a premium for a car of this category, you darn well shouldn't be expected to endure insult to injury from this type of cost cutting to the point that you have to replace the A/C compressor as an entire unit.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2013

I would tend to agree...a BMW product is in my experience a car that starts to open its mouth real wide at 80K---100K, and you'd better punch out as soon as the clock turns to 99,000.

Similar issue with the sunroof on the MINI---if the rear glass panel breaks, (the stationary piece) can you replace just the glass? No, you replace the entire 'cassette'--that means the entire frame + pre-installed rear glass, and you remove the headliner, too, which you CAN'T very easily do without removing the seats! Welcome to a $2,800 repair for a piece of broken glass!

As these punishing repair costs continue to add up on new cars (and it'll only get worse), I can see the day when cars will be recycled by the factory at a set mileage---then perhaps "refurbished" like they do with computers on Amazon, and re-sold again at a discount.

thecardoc3 · July 2013

Progress is made one step at a time.

http://www.metnews.com/articles/2013/conf071913.htm

I'm waiting for the OK to repost something from a GM technician from Florida. It will shed some more light on this topic.

thecardoc3 · July 2013

While we wait to see if I can do that repost, check this out.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/gm-and-universal-technical-institute-create-a-p- artnership-to-help-meet-the-growing-need-for-qualified-automotive-technicians-20- 13-07-15?goback=%2Egde_5032652_member_260291823

See any points that are familliar?

busiris · July 2013

Similar issue with the sunroof on the MINI---if the rear glass panel breaks, (the stationary piece) can you replace just the glass? No, you replace the entire 'cassette'--that means the entire frame + pre-installed rear glass, and you remove the headliner, too, which you CAN'T very easily do without removing the seats! Welcome to a $2,800 repair for a piece of broken glass!

FWIW, I had a 2005 Chevy Aveo with moonroof. After 2+ years and about 30K miles, the mechanism began to start making a binding noise, and the only option was total cassette replacement. No provisions for lubrication (lifetime fill, once again).

A $1200 job, but fortunately for me, it was covered under warranty. The vehicle's cost was right at $15 K new.

stever · July 2013

So, in three months I can hang up a shingle and start fixing Malibus? Cool.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2013

you can hang your shingle now. All you need is a work space and a business license.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but it is my understanding that a high school kid with no training on cars whatsoever, could open up a Brake Repair shop in just about any state of the union.

stever · July 2013

I need the validation. Certified GM tech has a nice ring to it. :shades:

jipster · July 2013

that a high school kid with no training on cars whatsoever, could open up a Brake Repair shop in just about any state of the union.

So along with Bozo' s Automotive Repair, we could have Jipster' s Brake Service and Shifty' s Mini A/C Repair? With professional sounding names like those, we'd make a fortune! :sick:

stever · July 2013

We could hire on with Fairly Reliable Bob's used cars in Boise.

That dealer actually enjoys a good reputation - plus you gotta love truth in advertising.

srs_49 · July 2013

Nah, ya gotta have the word "certified" in there someplace.

So that would become Jipster' s Certified Brake Service and Shifty' s Certified Mini A/C Repair.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2013

I'll take door #2 instead of Mini AC repair...crawling through shards of broken glass 8 hours a day would be nice :P

thecardoc3 · July 2013

So, in three months I can hang up a shingle and start fixing Malibus? Cool.

No, not exactly. You would however get to be a dealership technician and be expected to be productive on flat rate and meet or beat the following labor times.....

From James.

For example, let's look at a common G.M. car, the 2012 and
2013 Malibu. That's basically the same car with few changes.
There is no reason for the repair times to be different.

2012 Malibu - replace ECM and program - .9 and .3 diagnostic
time.

2013 Malibu - replace ECM and program - .4 and .3 Diagnostic
time

2012 Malibu - replace electric steering column - 1.3 and .3
diag and .3 if adj. pedals

2013 Malibu - replace electric steering column - 1.3 no diag
or pedal allowance

2012 Malibu - replace and program SDM - 1.2 and .3 diag time

2013 Malibu - replace and program SDM - .9 and .3 diag time

2012 Malibu - reprogram ECM, SDM, HVAC or EBCM - .4 - no
diagnostic allowance

2013 Malibu - reprogram ECM, SDM, HVAC or EBCM - .3 - no
diagnostic allowance

crkyolfrt · July 2013

and Shifty' s Mini A/C Repair

Lol, I'm not too sure about that one, jipster...just cuz Bozo seems to be getting away with it, doesn't mean other consumers are gonna trust a shop named "Shifty". haha..Of course they never knew that Shifty's full name (before the Edmund's mod name-chop last month) was in context with enjoying shifting a stick tranny..

Not even sure if having "Certified" in there would help much...maybe a hair.. lol

stever · July 2013

"Programming" and flashing chips isn't ~~geek~~ Greek to me so I'd probably do okay with that (so long as that was my assignment - forget the diagnosing part).

I'd be sure to break any clips on the trim around the steering column first thing. :shades:

Mr_Shiftright · July 2013

I'd probably destroy quite a few customers' cars but you know, in time I'd get better. In the meantime, I'll use the standard excuses:

"oh, they all do that"

"it's a factory defect"

"could not duplicate"

"oh, you wanted brakes on BOTH front wheels..."

"no codes detected"

"it's your brother-in-law's fault"

stickguy · July 2013

well, he might make a killing with the British car crowd (they always need mechanics!) if he called it "Sir Nigel's auto service" instead.

thecardoc3 · July 2013

I'd probably destroy quite a few customers' cars but you know, in time I'd get better

So no comment on the labor times listed, for the same jobs? Flat rate is supposed to be piece work that pays the tech a fair amount for a given job and through experience and attention to detail the tech should get rewarded by improving his/her efficiency. The times listed for the 2012 models aren't routinely achievable, the 2013's are the very same jobs and are now about 50% of what a good tech can expect to achieve without breaking stuff.

GM is looking for more techs through that school, they know they have a technician retention issue and yet are turning right around and ensuring the next group can't possibly thrive, unless they sell un-needed services that is. How about the media start concentrating on the real problem instead of only focusing attention on one of the final outcomes?

The times listed are simply impossible to meet and should be at least double across the board. There are technical writers looking for something to do, lets get them help to do legitimate time studies and prove how long it really takes to do some of this work. What you'll find is they won't even have the failed PCM diagnosed before the time to replace and program it expires.

BTW GM isn't alone with warranty times like these. I should look up the warranty times to diagnose and repair your Mini, its probably half of what you said that it took.

A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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