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A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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Comments

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2013
    There's nothing wrong with that and yeah, the idea makes sense to me. Tesla can flop out the whole drivetrain and replace it and send the part back to the factory for a rebuild. Meanwhile I'm only out my car for a day. What's not to like? (Dan in editorial wants to know why the failure happened but most of us won't care).

    My bad fuel injector two weeks ago? My car was out of service for a week, and I've got a good, careful mechanic.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,747
    edited November 2013
    You do see the replies that are finding fault with them for not knowing what was actually wrong don't you?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    No, I'm out of town on hospital watch with a sick in-law and haven't been keeping up with the latest. But does it really matter in the long run, so long as it gets fixed?
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    "Doc, I think you have to view the technicians as the consumer's second line of defense. The consumer certainly has every right to "give it a try"--it's HIS VEHICLE and he paid for it!!!"

    Exactly!

    What thecardoce seems to be advocating (reading between the lines in many of his posts) goes like this:

    Vehicle owners should take their car to a shop for any and all repairs or maintenance. This way the shop gets to amortize the cost of his training, experience and costly tools across a larger set of repairs, so that those tools and skill set are available when the really tough problems come around (such as a comm link putting out garbage data).
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,747
    Vehicle owners should take their car to a shop for any and all repairs or maintenance. This way the shop gets to amortize the cost of his training, experience and costly tools across a larger set of repairs, so that those tools and skill set are available when the really tough problems come around (such as a comm link putting out garbage data).

    If this doesn't occur, what are the alternatives?
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    edited November 2013
    If this doesn't occur, what are the alternatives?

    Several option come to mind:

    1. The owner of the really tough problem has to pay for all those tools and training needed to diagnose his (not my) problem. So he gets a $1000 repair/diagnostic bill.
    2. Shop owners adjust their rates to cover the costs of those expensive tools and software subscriptions so that they are paid for with fewer billable hours (since many of us are just going to replace the gas cap for a P0440 code). But then, you say, that would drive customer to lower cost operations.
    3. A tiered maintenance approach (this has been mentioned before). Leave the easy, routine stuff (oil changes, brakes, wiper blades) to the lowest tier, but then charge your higher rate for the really tough problems that are sent your way - you being the go-to guy with all the experience and the investment in those high cost, specialized tools and SW subscriptions.
    4. Focus on a specific manufacturer or group of manufacturers so as to reduce the need to invest in more specialized, single-make diagnostic tools. This has also been mentioned by others.
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    The CEO of Tupperware was on TV explaining that sales have dropped significantly in the U.S. because we have opted for cheap containers available at big box discount stores. Tupperware charges more because it is made to last and America is price driven so they buy cheap plastic containers which has hurt sales here. In Europe however, they shop quality and Tupperware is booming. They would rather buy fewer items of good quality that buy cheap goods that get used a few times and are thrown away. I plead guilty to that mentality but I'm not sure it makes sense long term. We have a set of Tupperware bowls that has been great for 12 years of hard use.
    I have heard that Euros buy cars and keep them serviced at dealers and qualified indys for decades. The shops don't need to have all the service add ons because they charge what they need to charge for repairs and maintenance to make a living. The public accepts this and doesn't price shop like here in the states.
    I would be interested if this in fact reality re car care or just a myth.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,747
    3. A tiered maintenance approach (this has been mentioned before). Leave the easy, routine stuff (oil changes, brakes, wiper blades) to the lowest tier, but then charge your higher rate for the really tough problems that are sent your way - you being the go-to guy with all the experience and the investment in those high cost, specialized tools and SW subscriptions.


    This is almost where we are at right now with one notable problem. There is no reasonable path for anyone else to also get there, and the business model isn't sustainable.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Sorry, but I'm not going to pay my MINI/Porsche/Audi repair shop $140/hour to replace the bulbs in my tail lights,or my muffler, or change my oil and filter or my shocks. They can do my brakes and my clutch.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,747
    1. The owner of the really tough problem has to pay for all those tools and training needed to diagnose his (not my) problem. So he gets a $1000 repair/diagnostic bill.

    When this one happens one normal solution is to cry for the manufacturer to goodwill warranty the repair. Then we get back into what happens to the tech pay wise when this shifts from being a customer pay repair back to a warranty one. Even if its a partial assist it changes what the tech who actually is doing the work gets paid for it. Nobody accounts for what this does towards technician morale and long term career retention.

    The other solution is to simply dispose of the car and buy a different one. This is usually the popular choice. Again, every consideration is taken into account except for the one that supports having someone who can fix the car and keep it in (or return it to) service.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Tupperware charges more because it is made to last and America is price driven so they buy cheap plastic containers which has hurt sales here. In Europe however, they shop quality and Tupperware is booming. They would rather buy fewer items of good quality that buy cheap goods that get used a few times and are thrown away.

    One of the problems with what you mentioned is how does one know if the price premium for something like Tupperware is worth it? If Tupperware costs 2X more than a lower quality product, it should last at least twice as long. I need to know that indeed is the case before I shell out the added dollars. Even if Tupperware does last 2 twice or three times as long, that advantage is meaningless if the container is rendered useless because the top was loss or it became distorted because it was placed on the lower rack of the dishwasher.

    This example is a lot like the one for buying CFL or LED light bulbs. The money saved by reduced energy usage and longer life are completely obviated if you drop the bulb and it breaks. Ooops, there goes a $15 LED bulb down the rain.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,747
    2. Shop owners adjust their rates to cover the costs of those expensive tools and software subscriptions so that they are paid for with fewer billable hours (since many of us are just going to replace the gas cap for a P0440 code). But then, you say, that would drive customer to lower cost operations.

    The reluctance to do this is why we have mobile diagnostic techs and shops like mine that are currently bridging the gap. That gap is getting wider all of the time and we often find that there are situations that arrise that go beyond our means to solve. (That's why we specialize more by manufacturers and systems). There is irony in this in that we are enabling those who don't want to try to keep up with technology to continue to do only the easiest stuff and when they encounter something we can't solve for them the entire house of cards falls down.

    It's like the guy that took on the Porsche no-start that he wanted me to bail him out on. Sorry, I cut that brand out of my business plan. Now the owner is crying because no one wants to touch it, not even the dealer.......
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    But really, did you want to dedicate your life to changing mufflers on Camaros?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,747
    Compared to dedicating it to renting software?
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,355
    Sorry, but I'm not going to pay my MINI/Porsche/Audi repair shop $140/hour to replace the bulbs in my tail lights,or my muffler, or change my oil and filter or my shocks. They can do my brakes and my clutch.

    Exactly; the indie shops and dealers that I patronize know I enjoy doing some of the repairs and maintenance on my cars- and they have never begrudged me for it. They know I'll come to them when there is a job that I can't handle.
    That said, if I started getting lectures about how I should use a trained tech to swap out an HID bulb, R&R a battery or change the oil, I'd find another shop...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well at least it's not brainless drudgery.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,747
    edited November 2013
    No it's not, working at this end of the trade demands constant study and research on a daily basis. That is one of the reasons all of the quick fix promotion is so troubling. While there are still easy repairs, many of the things we (I) solve require hours of research and testing and it isn't billable time with the current business model. Of the current followers of this board, IMO only srs has the knowledge to step in and replace a top tech, but he doesn't actually have the experience and it would take him years to gain it. That's not a knock on anybody, that's only about trying to break down the false impressions about how demanding a techs work really is. People assume that because they can do any one thing themselves they have us eclipsed, we hear and see it all the time. I'd love to see some of them do the water pump on the 6cyl Subaru 3.0 that I did yesterday. 1/3rd of the timing cover allen heads were corroded out of size (There are some 26 bolts that hold that cover on, and then you still have to deal with the effects of electrolysis between the dowel pins and the aluminum alloy cover) Two timing chains, nine guides, two tensioners and the book allows three hours to do the job. Most of them wouldn't even have the timing cover off in that much time given what had to be overcome. (without drilling things and breaking stuff)

    BTW did you listen to the noise in the video's on the Tesla? My take on it is that they are using brushless motors with permanent magnet armatures. The sound is the stator windings vibrating from the magnetic reluctance under the torque of the motor, in effect its quite similar to the whine you get from an alternator when it is charging only this is a lower frequency. On an industrial motor you hear that sound all the time and don't think twice about it, although it eventually leads to the winding's insulation failing and grounding together or to the housing. Anyway it figures, put that same motor into a $100,000 car and a relatively normal sound becomes an objectionable noise. We will have to wait to see if Tesla comes out and says what the sound is to be sure, but that's my perception of it. FWIW.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well on tough jobs like that Subaru you don't charge "by the book". You show the customer the problems and charge accordingly, or call them in before you start the job if you see a mass of corrosion, eroded bolt heads, rust or whatever.

    My tech gave me a heads up on the pulley on my supercharger. No way it was coming off with the unit in the car--it had to be removed and pressed off on a hydraulic press, due to this type of corrosion. Worked out great but cost me more $$$.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2013
    Well, if I'm a consumer, why should I hang around a week for a tech to get her head around a problem? Swap out the running gear, send me on my way, and then the factory tech can play with it at HQ with all the toys to work with and other techs to help with potential solutions.

    If my computer crashes, I'm not out of business. I just log onto the cloud with a different one or grab my external backup drive and rock and roll.

    The best you can offer me is a rental car. And it won't be paired with my phone, won't have my preferred music plugged in, no GPS routes set up, no temp settings. That's so twentieth century.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,747
    Well on tough jobs like that Subaru you don't charge "by the book". You show the customer the problems and charge accordingly,

    Unless you simply take it in stride and manage to complete the job just about in the approved time, as I did. That's the part people don't see, how an experienced tech often works right around the things that would derail most attempts, and he/she ends up making less for the effort.

    BTW, I didn't even have to replace any of the corroded bolts, and they are totally serviceable if it ever had to come back apart. Any guesses how I did that?
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Heat or solvents are the only two things I can think of to deal with the corroded bolts. Those solutions are too obvious so I'm sure you did something else.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,747
    edited November 2013
    The actual torque on the bolts is quite low, and by carefully cutting an easy out short on one of my older valve grinders, I was able to keep it cool so as to not lose the hardness of the tool and made it so that it would bite in the rounded allen hole. From there I made a quick little jig for my press and I re-sized the allens from 5mm to 6mm. I painted them all silver and put them in across the top where they will be easy to reach if they ever need to be removed again. (not likely)

    BTW I did it this way because they are all uncommon sizes and lengths and the dealer said it would be three days to order new ones. pbbbbt on that...

    The dowels, easy. Search mini-ductor. http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/130789336212?lpid=82
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    How do you resize an allen head?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,747
    edited November 2013
    20 ton press and appropriate tooling. Takes about 20 seconds per bolt.

    One allen has a slight taper, the second one is squared. It takes two presses.
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    There is nothing quite like taking stuff made for one type of job and adapting the part/equipment to a different problem and being successful. I mess around in my workshop getting into trouble with projects --- some I fix with a bit of creativity and some get junked. Do you document any of your "brain storm" fixes ? You must have a lot over the years.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,747
    edited November 2013
    I've published just about every one of them in one form or another. I'll be in front of a class in about an hour from now demonstrating how measuring current (low amps probe and digital storage oscilloscope) saves tons of time and increases technician accuracy when doing diagnostics.

    What's funny is how many of my ideas are out there today and I see them re-shared in trade magazines etc. all the time.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,355
    Memoirs of a Hack Mechanic

    image

    Mandatory Disclosure: Rob is a friend who also writes for Roundel as well as Road & Track.

    It's a great read for anyone, but especially for those of us who tackle major repairs in the driveway or garage...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,151
    At first I thought that was written by a singer/songwriter... :grin

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,355
    Rob really is multi-talented...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,151
    I had to stop to figure it out. I was thinking of Bob Seger. Once I turned 59 1/2 my memory was the 2nd thing to go.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,355
    I know the feeling- but Rob actually is a folk singer in addition to his day job and hack wrenching.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Just read something that might interest you cardoc. Seems automakers are going to be launching 154 new models between now and 2018 with 1/3 coming next year alone. Seems they need 3000 new tools to assemble each new model and with tool making shops disappearing and the average age of a tool maker 52 there could be a problem. So far the mfrs have resisted the chinese tool market but not for long. If you think tech work is tough now, just think how much fun it will be when these new models start breaking down. Check TTAC.com
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,747
    2018, + 5yrs to get it out of warranty is 2023-2024 and I'll be 65. As it is I'm pretty much slowing down on the tool purchases now anyway. If I can't fix something with the 300K+ that's inside my building already there really has to be an exceptional promise of generating a good return on the expense to even consider buying anything else. Many of the "essential" tool expenses amounted to working to own a few machined hunks of metal instead of earning a living and that's just one more nail in coffin for the business plan.

    Some might be contemplating a rental idea to fill the gap, its been tried and it just doesn't work long term. They will come up with a solution for acquiring the tooling to build the new models. The dealers will have the tools to fix them, it remains to be seen if they will have the techs.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,747
    First this notice came.

    "On certain 2007 ~ 2008 Honda Civics, trying to diagnose the
    SRS system with HDS may cause the Passenger Side Curtain
    Airbag to deploy. If this happens, it may cause bodily
    injury to the technicians, and unintended damages to the
    vehicle interior.

    To avoid this potential problem, refrain from diagnosing
    2007 ~ 2008 Honda Civic SRS system with HDS for the time
    being. HDS software fix will be released on September 18,
    2013, and you will receive further instructions on how to
    obtain one year software subscription FREE of charge. Upon
    receipt of this software, update your HDS PC without delay.

    Note: Unlike your old HDS software, new software will expire
    after one calendar year. If you choose not to update your
    software, you will risk having an unintended airbag
    deployment.

    We apologize for any inconvenience this may be cause.

    Sincerely,

    American Honda Motor Co., Inc."

    After doing the required update........

    "Dear HDS User,

    Our system has listed you as a current or previous
    subscriber to the Honda Diagnostic System (HDS) software.

    A few days ago, American Honda sent out an email stating
    that new HDS software is available to you free for a period
    of one year. The new software addresses an issue that
    affected certain 2007 ~ 2008 Honda Civics, where attempts to
    diagnose the SRS system with HDS may cause the passenger
    Side Curtain Airbag to deploy.

    Instructions on how to obtain the HDS software free of
    charge are explained below.

    Please note that this HDS software subscription will expire
    on or shortly after Sep-26-2014.

    To continue using the HDS software after that date, you will
    need to apply for a new HDS subscription.

    Additional HDS software information can be found at

    http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/web/RJAAI0... [honda.com]

    Instructions to download the HDS software:

    1. Ensure the computer has access to the Internet during the
    entire process below.

    2. Download and run the HDS Download Manager (HDM). The file
    is available here: xxxxxxxxxxxxx

    3. When prompt, enter xxxxxx for the user name, and xxxxxxx
    for the password. HDM will begin to download the HDS
    software. Once downloaded, the HDS will begin to install.

    4. The HDS installation will prompt you for the Service
    Express Pass-code. Type in: xxxx

    5. When prompt, select 'Independent Repair Facility'. You
    will be prompted again for a user name and password. Type
    in: xxxxx for the user name, xxxxxxxx for the password.

    6. When the HDS installation is finished, click on the HDS
    icon to launch the HDS software. Ensure that the HDS version
    number is at 3.011.006"
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2013
    Seems like an issue the NHTSA would be interested in; if there's a "factory authorized" diagnostic routine out there that can hurt someone, shouldn't Honda make the fix "permanent'? That would entail free downloads of that diagnostic update indefinitely. Don't techs and owners have a Right to Repair automobiles safely?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,747
    For consumers, maybe.

    But for techs, seriously when has anyone other than OSHA who only punishes after the fact ever given it any thought?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2013
    Good point, I plumb forgot about OSHA. You'd think they'd be interested. - they do shut down jobs in progress. Shutting down Honda dealers would really get some attention.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,747
    Have you ever paid attention to the positioning of the data link connectors? There has been so much thought put into technician safety that some cars litterally end up with the scan tool connector and harness interfeering with safe operation of the vehicle, let alone what is demanded of the technician to not only drive a vehicle but operate a lap top based scan tool simultaneously. Oh yea, forgot. They will say to have two techs perform that operation while only one of them gets paid .3 for the effort.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'd require 2 datalinks---one right in the middle of the dashboard and another in the firewall.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Wireless.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    bluetooth may not have the range--how else can it be done?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Oh, if hackers can reach Dick Cheney's pacemaker, getting range for a car shouldn't be an issue. :D
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,747
    Bluetooth connectivity?
    Meet the Genisys Touch.

    http://otctools.com/genisystouch/

    You have to try it and then compare what it can do to what a real scan tool can do to understand just how badly it falls short of the promises they make about it.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Give it a couple of years and those "real" scan tools will be out of date.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,747
    And a couple after that, the ones that replaced them will be too.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2013
    Change is good, and it won't be too long until the "tool" is your phone or nav system/HUD and the software is updated all the time and delivered by the cloud.

    And if you keep pumping up the air suspension in the back of your Lincoln at regular intervals using the "tool", after a while the NSA is going to take notice and send a revenuer out to see if you are bootlegging moonshine.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,747
    Still believe in R2R do you? What have they accomplished now that the law has been on the books for more than a year?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2013
    No one stopped selling cars in Massachusetts yet did they? The same idea is branching out to "digitial rights" for everything you own.

    Phones will be the big battleground. If I buy a smartphone, why can't I jailbreak it?

    Same argument then applies to the "IP" in your car's ABS sensors, for example.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,747
    So where does it leave this guy if all of the diagnostics are built into the Nav screen? http://answers.edmunds.com/question-My-NAV-screen-radio-died-Subaru-B9-Tribeca-A- ny-idea-why-179549.aspx
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,747
    Phones will be the big battleground. If I buy a smartphone, why can't I jailbreak it?

    That's easily solved by only selling you a license to use it (or the software) for a limited period of time, that way you don't own it. (exactly like they have done with the scan tools) So then go ahead and jailbreak it. Then when its time to upgrade or renew they detect that you did whatever to pirate the intellectual property and now you risk getting to face criminal prosecution.

    As far as putting diagnostic systems onboard or into the Navigation systems, are you not seeing reports of accidents from people texting, cell phone usage, and even with operation of the onboard digital radio/navigation systems? Giving people access without experience and training to be technicians would have some of them not repairing systems when a section fails, they will be trying to bypass or eliminate it. SRS systems make for a good example, as long as the conversation stays at this level you can claim that you should be able to do whatever you want to. But just let someone get hurt or killed, and heaven forbid its someone close to you because something wasn't repaired correctly and your story and perspective would change to be at the very least "If only I had". But even if it wasn't someone close to you, if someone got hurt playing with the onboard diagnostics because it was built into the Nav system, and it is there because it was your idea how would you feel about that? This something you have to think about first before you push to hard to get it.
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