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Your Thoughts Regarding The New EPA Mileage Mandate

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Comments

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I sure don't believe the government number estimates. When they started getting heavily involved in cars back in the 70's costs shot up way past estimates as quality also declined from the automakers trying to cut corners on product to help offset all of the gov regulation costs.

    I think you are right that the learning curve comes into play and over time the cost spike will smooth out some. But remember that in the 80's there was another influence on Detroit pricing - Japanese imports. To a large extent, I think we're already getting to the very high costs of auto repair and parts that you talk about. Not just technology driven, but the whole nature of industry pricing has changed forcing dealers to increase reliance on service shop profits to offset declining new car sales margins.
  • wilcoxwilcox Member Posts: 582
    If you'd expect different, then let us remember that these targets are being pronounced by the 'Government Employed'. They make rich salaries and are not hard hit by recessions. They don't give a flip how much extra it costs to achieve their mandates....
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    I'm glad that because of higher mpg we won't be sending hundreds of billions of dollars to certain countries in the middle east. Glad we can keep the money here at home.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Aren't they saying we'll cut imports from OPEC countries by some amazing amount?
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,780
    Had the fear factor not hamstrung our nuclear power generating capacity, electric and plug-in hybrid cars would be an incredibly viable option in many (if not most) areas of the country that would truly reduce our dependence on fossil fuels.

    C'est la vie. :sick:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    Yeah, by 2020 they are going to be seeing a lot less of our money.

    Given that our fleet is something like 150 million vehicles, and sales are something like 14 million a year, it takes several years of improved mpg being fed into the system before there's a big effect. But by 2020 it'll be significant. By 2030 it should be quite big.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, though I think growth in BRIC countries will likely offset whatever fuel we don't buy.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited September 2012
    To a significant degree what you say seems likely to be true. But given that we are by far the biggest consumer of gas a significant leveling off or even decline in our consumption is all to the good in terms of prices, as well as in terms of giving those countries in the middle east less of our $....
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • selrationalityselrationality Member Posts: 3
    edited September 2012
    This is an important point. Gasoline engines are getting more and more costly to design and build as they add features to improve gas mileage. I frequently hear people talking about the higher price of diesel engines. Sure, diesel engine are expensive - but all the trick new functionality in gas engines costs more money as well. As you say, the general tendency is for each incremental improvement to be smaller while the costs keep going up. It will be difficult to sustain.

    SelectiveRationality
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    People might make it even out by keeping their cars longer....probably NOT what automakers want for an outcome.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • selrationalityselrationality Member Posts: 3
    They certainly don't want that...

    Every now and again I do wonder where auto OEMs would be without the "keeping up with the Joneses" mentality that makes so many people trade in their cars for new models after 3 years.

    My father tried to justify it to me a couple of years back by arguing that 3 years after purchase was when you got the best price for your old car. I don't know whether that's true or not, but it did prompt me to sit down and do a fully costed spreadsheet model of car ownership including insurance, depreciation, deteriorating fuel efficiency, rising servicing costs etc over a 10-year lifetime.

    My conclusion was that despite rising maintenance costs, by far the cheapest thing to do is to buy a car and run it into the ground. I can understand somebody wanting to exchange old for new because of advances in safety or functionality (the desire to be able to plug in a portable music player or smartphone comes to mind) but from a cost of ownership perspective, buying a new car every few years is massively expensive. If you want to save money, keep your car!

    As you say, not what car companies want.

    SelectiveRationality
  • luckyou18luckyou18 Member Posts: 1
    Thanks for posting
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,672
    My father tried to justify it to me a couple of years back by arguing that 3 years after purchase was when you got the best price for your old car.

    I think there might be a few things that happen at the three year mark that might, somewhat, back that up. Usually a car takes the biggest depreciation hit in the first year or two. So, at year three, that usually starts to level off, although it doesn't stop. And, nowadays, I think the three year mark might finally be at the point where you have some positive equity in the car, if you're financing it for five years.

    But yeah, I'm convinced that driving it till it drops, and then replacing it with a newer, 1-2 year old car, is probably the best way to go. Maybe less so with some of the top-tier imports that don't depreciate as much.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    But yeah, I'm convinced that driving it till it drops, and then replacing it with a newer, 1-2 year old car, is probably the best way to go.

    Exactly correct. My brother and I were having this conversation the other day. We're both convinced we'll never buy a new car again.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    I've never bought one and probably never will, unless I come into serious money, or find some insanely subsidized lease special on a car I want.

    My sister on the other hand, who just had to buy a new higher mpg car, wouldn't even think of buying used. I told her to look around when she recently bought a Sonic, she was less than receptive.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,672
    I've never bought one and probably never will, unless I come into serious money, or find some insanely subsidized lease special on a car I want.

    The only brand-new car I ever bought was my 2000 Intrepid, and part of the appeal there was the low 0.9% financing for 5 years. At the time, most used car rates were around 6.75-7%, or more.

    However, even there I probably would've been better off used. I remember going back to the dealer a few months later, for something-or-other, and seeing some used '99 Intrepids with maybe 25-30,000 miles on them, priced around $13-14K. In contrast, mine had an MSRP of $20,390 plus $560 freight. I ended up getting it for about $19K, but by the time you threw on the freight, tax, tags, an extended warranty that I never needed except for the peace of mind, and the total was up to $22,389 out the door.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Heck, if I really wanted to, I could've keep my 1968 Buick Special Deluxe wagon until it either succumbed to rust or metal fatigue. Those two events are fatal to any car. There's also a good chance an accident would've taken it out the longer I kept it.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I won't trade a car until it is paid off. I took the loan out on my 2007 Cadillac DTS for five years but paid it off in three. So far, the DTS looks like it's going to be with me for the long haul. Heck, it might even be around as long as the Brougham.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,488
    tell my wife.

    it helps to buy used when what you want has been around But, when the "one" is a newly released model, you don't have much of a choice!

    my wife also just does not like or feel comfortable buying a used car for herself. Which is fine. We do ten to keep her (aka the family) car for a long time. the van is going on 8 years, and I expect to keep the RDX longer than that.

    But, if you shop carefully and buy something that does not have stellar initial resale, you can do well with gently used.

    Now, keeping until it is run into the ground? That is a different story. Some people have a much lower tolerance for cars breaking down on them, or dealing with repairs and down time. So there has to be a cut off point when a car goes from everyday, to spare.

    we tend to take my wife's car on most trips, and they are often in the boonies at night. No chance I am doing that in something I am nursing along, waiting for the next shoe to drop!

    different story if it is my care that is pretty much local short hops.

    so for the primary and travel wheels, something around 10 years/100-120K is likely to be as far as she will be comfortable with.

    at that point though, keeping it for 2nd car duty is entirely possible.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,488
    let me guess. the 2007 has maybe 30K on it? 40 tops?

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Heck, if I didn't get 0% financing on my DTS, I may have never bought it. I might've got a Lucerne CXS instead.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited September 2012
    Try exactly 12,229. It will go up today because I'm taking it somewhere this afternoon. One big reason the car has such low mileage is the color. Black was a terrible choice for a guy who is so OCD about his cars. If the car had been white or silver, it would probably have at least three times the mileage it does. Oh, the car looks FANTASTIC for about ten minutes until all the dust falls on it! It takes me three times as long to clean this car as the other three in our family fleet.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    My sister on the other hand, who just had to buy a new higher mpg car, wouldn't even think of buying used. I told her to look around when she recently bought a Sonic, she was less than receptive.

    My big fear of used cars is you never really know what your getting; even with a mechanic's inspection.

    First, there's a lot of people that willfully don't properly maintain, and act negligently. Then, there are people that attempt to maintain their cars properly in good faith, but then they happen to have a mechanic that is either A) innocently honestly incompetent or B) a fraud, liar, and thief who cheats on services and doesn't do the work at all or acceptably on purpose to save time and money. The problem is that A & B run rampant in the auto repair business in Southern CA. I even hear horror stories from an "inside" guy that worked at the dealership and talked about "shortcuts" they would take on services. So even at the dealership you are not safe! You can overpay and still get screwed on the work and service.

    If you don't drive a plain vanilla vehicle that sells 100K plus a year (like Camry/Accord) to make it ultra common, you might run into a lot of incompetent shops and mechanics.

    Getting a quote for "Multi-ATF Fluid" on my DSG transmission service helped me avoid one shop in San Diego, no matter how cheap they were pricewise. The DSG tranny requires a special "DSG Oil," not a fluid.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • buistdavisbuistdavis Member Posts: 2
    The people who drive these cars should buy a bicycle for backup...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    I'm not too worried, given the cars I like. They tend to do a much below average mileage, and are usually serviced properly.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    edited September 2012
    I guess it depends on how those 25K miles were earned. 25K rental miles = no thanks.

    Some cars are better off buying new, as there's not much savings. Many highly economical new cars fall into this. Things like Civic especially.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Maybe a lux car off lease, but face it - when you lease a car it's not really yours, so you are going to spend the least possible maintaining it. I think most popular 1-2 yr old cars are rentals. My guess is they get the least necessary care too. I had a Hertz vehicle that had the Oil Change message pop up. Hertz said either swap it out at the closest airport or they could give me the closest Firestone dealer to do the work and invoice them. I'm conscientious and had the time, most renters would probably just ignore it and continue to pile on the miles until turning it in. And Hertz seems to often have the best condition rental cars (of course you pay for that). I agree with you that if you are going to buy a popular car with a good image and quality record, you might as well buy it new. You won't save that much on a one or two year old model in that case, and if you're going to keep it a long time you can be sure of its maintenance.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Seems Enterprise has the worst condition cars. They are often filthy, (especially by my standards) when you get them. I often return an Enterprise car in much better condition than when I received it.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    But if it isn't maintained by the book, there is a penalty in the lease, right? Or there should be.

    Buying an old rental is the riskiest buy I can imagine.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I brought my bike to DC for a while and got around much quicker than you could by car.

    Plus you can park without having to pay $28.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,488
    not really. I doubt they even know or check.

    besides, these days, that is what, 2-3 oil changes tops?

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • torkedtorked Member Posts: 1
    Hello: I have never been on any forums before so please be kind. Look, this is a very special question about car sabatoge (to my car). I work a job that requires a vehicle- all maintained by me, an independent contractor- gasoline, repairs...everything. Due to animosity at work over me getting a very good contract...All of a sudden my Honda starts valve chatter at increasingly higher rpms and a loss of power, particularly on the hills I have to drive to do my job. I believe either a gas or oil contaminant was added to my car's system (Leaded?, metal filings?, graphite?.... I don't think deviantly so I am shocked and have no clue?...!) Has anyone heard of what can cause internal breakdown/valve chatter getting worse and worse/ loss of power such that not even the highway kickdown gear on the tranny will shift? In other words, yesterday fine ...today major problem. -T
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Year and model might help.

    Do you have a locking gas cap? Any noticeable damage to the cap?

    It may be an old wives' tale but I heard of sugar in the gas tank. No idea what that would really do.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2012
    Not much apparently, although you may have to get a new fuel filter.

    Edmunds Answers
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    From Mythbusters:

    Sugar in the Gas Tank Destroys a Car's Engine

    This myth has been around almost as long as there have been automobiles. On Halloween, the older and less scrupulous trick-or-treaters go around the neighborhood putting sugar in the neighbor's gas tanks because it will destroy the engines. Or maybe an angry homeowner uses this trick to get revenge on a neighbor for the loud parties he or she likes to throw. The premise is that the sugar will caramelize and form a thick sludge that clogs your fuel lines and gunks up the carburetor. However, scientific studies have failed to produce evidence of such a reaction resulting in damage to an engine. Very little of the sugar even remains inside the engine long enough to do harm. Because sugar is particulate matter, it could conceivably cause damage to an engine the same way that sand and dirt can, but the sugar would have to be added to the gasoline repeatedly for any significant damage to occur. So you'll have to find a better method of getting revenge on the neighbor whose noisy car engine wakes you up early every Saturday morning.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    You can achieve about the same result by dumping some sugar on the ground near the gas cap and leave an empty sugar bag nearby. :blush:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/12/lukoil-protest-8-dollar-a-gallon-gas_n_- 1877079.html?1347459714
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    edited September 2012
    So Lukoil's dealers are mad that Lukoil charges them more than the no names up the street? Well what did they expect? The no names can buy from anyone they want. Lukoil dealers have to buy from Lukoil or authorized distributors.

    My cousin once owned an Exxon station. Guess what? His wholesale price for Exxon gasoline was more than the no name up street.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I thought they pretty much all bought from the same supply trucks, no?
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    edited September 2012
    Most stations in an area are served by only a few distributors. Those distributors can mix in the additives required for each brand. For instance, there is a huge Exxon/Mobil tank farm near my old office but there are Shell, Gulf, et al trucks there. There is also a big "generic" gas tank farm there as well. You see the same trucks there.

    Further research - Lukoil dealers are mad that Lukoil charges them more than other brands charge their dealers. It has nothing to do with Lukoil selling to other dealers at lower prices.

    http://www.newson6.com/story/19522958/gas-prices-hit-8-in-nj-pa-in-lukoil-protes- - t
  • roho1roho1 Member Posts: 318
    Lukoil? Never heard or seen of them before and from the sound of this I won't be stopping at one now. Russian Oil Company? What going on?
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Lukoil stations are located in the northeast and mid Atlantic states. They bought Getty back in 2000 and converted to their name. In 2004 they bought a huge Mobil dealer and converted all of those.

    Russian Oil Company? What going on?

    Well we live in a global economy. BP = England. Shell = Dutch. Conoco/Phillips owns 10% of Lukoil.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    This is why I go to Sunoco for gas. Sunoco = Philadelphia. ;)
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Given the history of corruption and lousy quality, why would anyone pay more for a Russian product? You've probably got better odds at a no name station. I can't imagine why people even consider buying Lukoil gas, especially at a premium price?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    edited September 2012
    Maybe it works better in G-Wagens and other Russian mafia (where the money really goes) staff cars?

    At least there's no Chinese fuel concern here.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Given the history of corruption and lousy quality, why would anyone pay more for a Russian product? You've probably got better odds at a no name station. I can't imagine why people even consider buying Lukoil gas, especially at a premium price?

    Yeah, I'll stick to that Venezuelan or Middle Eastern gas. Those folks are so much nicer. :)

    I'm not saying people have to buy Lukoil. Heck, most likely the gas that Lukoil sells their dealers wasn't refined by them. Lukoil doesn't have any refineries here so I presume they buy gas from other refiners.

    You have to remember that most stations are not owned by the people the operate them. They are usually owned by the refiner or another party. The operators lease the stations and part of that lease often is that they have to buy their gasoline from the marketer - in this case Lukoil. Lukoil is free to charge their dealers whatever they want. It doesn't matter that Shell is charging its dealers less.

    Also, gas for these dealers is typically a loss leader. The goal is to get people into the station to buy coffee, soda, milk, rolling hot dogs, et al. That's where the money is at gas stations.

    I mentioned a cousin that owned an Exxon station. In reality he and a partner leased two. One was an inner city full serve with a repair bay. The other was a suburban kwik mart just of the highway. In the city he often charged $0.50 more per gallon than the highway mart because pumping gas took time away from his repair business. But it was full serve and he got to know the locals and got them back for service work. The kwik mart barely broke even on gas sales but made about 95% of it's profit on the sale of everything else. In both cases, selling gas wasn't the important part of the business. It was there to drive the other items.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Yeah, I'll stick to that Venezuelan

    Funny you mention that. It seems like Citgo gas stations are fading away.

    I understand the process at gas stations, but I thought someone said Lukoil sold for a premium (even when the dealers weren't jerking the pump price in protest). I really just don't understand why many consumers pay premiums for gasoline compared to nearby stations with other brand names. It seems like in the Midwest BP (formerly Amoco and Standard) gets a dime or so more than say Shell. In the west, buyers seem to pay more for Shell.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2012
    I was in Mackinaw City MI a couple of days ago and needed gas before crossing the bridge. It's a tourist spot and the Citgo is the first station you notice as you approach town. I wanted an extra map so first I went to the welcome center and saw that gas at the Marathon a block away was $4.05. Drove up to the Citgo and the sign said $3.99. Cool. Guy came out and wanted to pump it; said it was the same price whether I did it or he did. Also cool.

    Then I looked at the pump and regular was $4.29. I called the guy over and said, what's the deal? He said kerosene was $3.99 and looking at the big sign again, there is was.

    What idiot station other than a bunch of greedy crooks advertises kerosene where you expect regular to be?

    I went back to Marathon.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,780
    Dang, that's low! What's next... full service at gun point? :sick:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I really just don't understand why many consumers pay premiums for gasoline compared to nearby stations with other brand names. It seems like in the Midwest BP (formerly Amoco and Standard) gets a dime or so more than say Shell. In the west, buyers seem to pay more for Shell.

    It's all marketing. The major brand names (Shell, Exxon, Mobil, Chevron, et al) tout their additives and the benefits they provide. It's up to the consumer to decided whether or not that's important to them.

    Around my area, the big second tier brands are Hess, Irving, AL Prime and Cumberland Farms/Gulf. None of these market additives and typically run 10-15 cents less per gallon than the first tier. I very rarely use the first tier brands unless I'm desperate.

    One thing I have noticed recently is the spread between 87 and 93 octane. It used to be 20 cents per gallon. Now the spread is approaching 40 cents. Even when gas was around the same price a few years ago, the spread was never this high.
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