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The Current State of the US Auto Market

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    I think it looks better than the Ford fish mouth on the Fusion.

    Geez, we agree on something!

    Got a free ticket to the Cleveland Auto Show. Really have too much to do so am just going up, basically, to see the Impala, the SS, and the Cadillacs, as well as the classic cars they always have on display too.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    SPAM
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    Shoot us an email and we'll get to it faster next time.

    We won't be able help much with with your other unsolicited mail and junk when you get this going though:

    image
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I guess this is cool, but I'm more interested in the opposite - cars that can use my already-paid-for smart phone.

    This is just another monthly bill to pay.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The hype is that you don't need your phone in the car to do all this stuff. But you're going to be carrying it everywhere anyway, so....
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    I see an AT&T symbol involved with that GM 4G hot spot plan????

    I put AT&T and GM on the same odorous excrement list as Circuit City, Best Buy, Rite Aid, and Chrysler.

    I'd avoid the technology simply because AT&T's name is on it. I don't do business with AT&T; not in this lifetime.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I guess this is cool, but I'm more interested in the opposite - cars that can use my already-paid-for smart phone.

    This is just another monthly bill to pay.


    You took the words right out of my mouth.

    Gee, I just want to pay $20-$90/month MORE to drive my car around and be distracted! No thanks.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I put AT&T and GM on the same odorous excrement list as Circuit City, Best Buy, Rite Aid, and Chrysler.

    ...and right above the lowest excrement of the bailed out banks.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I put AT&T and GM on the same odorous excrement list as Circuit City, Best Buy, Rite Aid, and Chrysler.

    And right you are to do so!

    Gross Profit

    While revenue increased by the aforementioned 1.3% COGS increased by 7.8%. This had the effect of cutting gross profit nearly in half, from $19.1 billion in 2011 to $10.8 billion in 2012.

    In 2012 GM sold 9.288 million vehicles, up from 9.024 million in 2011, an increase of 2.9%. This leads to the conclusion that GM made far less profit per vehicle compared to 2011. This is not a good trend. Sacrificing margin for volume is very rarely a good idea.

    Operating Expenses

    Total operating expenses for 2012 total $41.2 billion, but this includes a large goodwill write-off of $27 billion. Excluding this charge OPEX sits at just about $14 billion. This leads to an EBIT of $-3.2 billion. So how did this loss of over $3 billion become a gain of $6 billion?

    Deferred tax valuation allowance

    GM claimed a reversal of deferred tax valuation allowances of $36.3 billion in the fourth quarter. What does that mean?

    As the old GM was heading toward bankruptcy the company wrote off $39 billion of deferred tax assets. These had accumulated from all of the losses that had built up in prior years. But these assets only have value if the company reasonably expects to turn a profit in the future and therefore be able to claim these tax benefits. Since GM was in an unending death spiral, the assets were written off.

    Now that GM expects to be profitable it has reversed that write-off and reinstated most of those assets. This increased the book value of the company above the market capitalization, requiring GM to write off the excess goodwill.

    This leads to two conclusions:

    GM will not be paying taxes in the US for quite some time.

    Excluding the effects of the goodwill write-off and the tax benefit GM actually lost money in 2012.

    The bottom line

    It looks like GM actually had quite a rough 2012, with Europe taking a serious toll on the company. There are some big warning signs here, like the dramatic drop in gross profit, that are effectively hidden by the tax benefit and goodwill write-off. All of this makes GM's financial performance extremely fuzzy. I don't think I'll be buying GM stock anytime soon.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    1.3 million Fords, Toyotas, Hondas under investigation

    and again...no GM's.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    AT&T symbol involved with that GM 4G hot spot plan

    So I looked at the current mobile hotspots, and the minimum plan is $50/month, and even that one is not unlimited.

    A Malibu leases for $189 around here, that bumps your monthly cost to around $249. Pretty significant bump.

    Add a hotspot plan to your phone for $10/month if you don't already have one.

    I bet GM gets a cut of whatever profits AT&T would make.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    I call ATT the "deathstar", as their logo kind of looks like one. I was pleased their attempted GSM monopoly via buying out T-Mobile failed, and shocked that the corporate controlled Feds didn't let it go through. Maybe all isn't lost.

    And $50/month for in-car hotspot when all smartphones can do it anyway, and said hotspot will be dependent on the same signal? No thanks.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    T-Mobile sucks too. That's my carrier. And they waited for the acquisition and updating nothing.

    They're still the only major carrier without the iPhone.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    All American carriers are either expensive (VZW), have sketchy non-urban coverage (TMo and others), or both. I live in a city, so price is a concern.

    I think Tmo is supposed to get the iphone this spring - never understood the hype, I like a device I can modify/root to my own standards. The build quality is nice, but the rest is controlled and cultish. And my Note II makes it look like a baby's toy :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Work supports BB, iPhone to an extent, but not Android yet.

    Z10/Q10 BlackBerry is probably too little too late.

    Oddly enough the Note II would be my pick as well if all options were on the table. The screen is simply amazing - like holding a small tablet that still fits in your dress shirt pocket.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    My work uses Android now, was BB for years. I have worked in Telecom since 01 - am not a huge phone geek, but I like to have something current. The Note II is easily the best phone I've ever had - monster sized but monster capability.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited February 2013
    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/02/exclusive-bernstein-research-literally-- - dissects-chinese-cars-auto-industry-in-200-page-report/

    most Chinese sedans of the recent era have been reverse engineered copies of the Toyota Corolla


    The consensus seems to be that SAIC is miles ahead of everyone else – thanks mostly to their collaboration with GM
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I support whatever we deploy, so I have to use what my users use, unfortunately.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    That's one thing I hate about the iphone. You have very little control over it when you plug it in for an update. It starts automatically before you can pause it and manually choose what to sync, and if you don't do it properly it'll erase stuff you had on the iphone (if you don't sync some items). Even worst is when you have two iphones like my wife's and mine on one computer. IT loads my stuff on hers, her stuff on mine.

    When I had an older Motorolla Razor and a Sony Ericsson pre smart phones with memory capabilities I liked the fact that you could simply drag and drop files you want in your phone as easily as moving papers from one drawer to another in your desk.

    End of my rant.....

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    Collaboration...lol...that's a way to put it.

    Some still insist the Chinese aren't copying, just influenced. Right.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    Iphones are meant to be very user friendly - aka an idiot can't mess them up. So, you get no control. Turns me off. I also don't like the tight controls over their app store. The sync stuff is annoying too - my Android phone doesn't care about what's on my computer, nor should it.

    I once had an excellent flip phone, a Motorola V600. Huge build quality (metal case!) and it was one of the first bluetooth phones. I felt like I was from the future moving files from it via bluetooth. 9 years later, it is an antique.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    And if they are old suits - you'll get BB, last choice will be Android. Some people at my workplace had to be dragged kicking and screaming.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    iPad proved popular, though, so we'll see. I guess they're easy enough to learn to use.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    That's one thing I hate about the iphone. You have very little control over it when you plug it in for an update. It starts automatically before you can pause it and manually choose what to sync, and if you don't do it properly it'll erase stuff you had on the iphone (if you don't sync some items).

    I've got an iPhone 4S and I've chosen NOT to upgrade to the latest version of iOS.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited February 2013
    That's one thing I hate about the iphone. You have very little control over it when you plug it in for an update. It starts automatically before you can pause it and manually choose what to sync, and if you don't do it properly it'll erase stuff you had on the iphone (if you don't sync some items).

    That's not exactly correct.

    You can easily disable the auto-sync function, and you can select what you want to sync by device.

    I do exactly that with the multiple Apple devices I have on my computer (iPad 2, iPhone 4), both with the latest iOS.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    It just seems more confusing than it should be and I'm computer literare!

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666

    Consumer Reports has unveiled its list of top automotive picks for 2013, and the news isn’t great for Detroit. American brands were shut out of all 10 categories rated by the magazine.

    Honda was the big winner, its Accord, CR-V and Odyssey taking the top spot in the Midsize, Small SUV and Minivan categories, even as the Civic was beaten by the Hyundai Elantra for the Budget Car crown and Subaru Impreza in the Compact sedan class.

    The Toyota Prius stretched its streak as best Green Car to 10 years, while the Highlander was named best Midsize SUV and the FR-S from its Scion division tied for the best Sports Car win with its near twin, the Subaru BRZ.

    The Audi A6 and BMW 328i took the Luxury Car and Sports sedan segments, respectively, both cited for a combination of performance, comfort and fuel economy.

    Consumer Reports compiles its Top Picks list based on a combination of their results in the magazine’s road tests, reliability reports from its subscribers and government crash test ratings.

    Pickup trucks were left off this year’s list because the latest vehicles in the category were not yet available for testing
    .
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited February 2013
    According to all I read here, apparently CR doesn't take riding quiet into account for Honda to do so well. But I think they liked the Vega in '72 also. ;)

    They're people and are subjective, of course...just as the people there who rated the Malibu LT above several of the foreign competition, much to the chagrin of some here.

    What do they say now about Juke reliability?
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    They're people and are subjective, of course...just as the people there who rated the Malibu LT above several of the foreign competition, much to the chagrin of some here.

    The problem is the US does not have the best cars on the market. Cost cutting devours good product and that is the case at the moment with the Small 3. Like it or not. ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited February 2013
    I'm afraid an objective report would be that cost cutting is happening at Toyota and Honda as well. And Nissan...you know what they say about Ghosn, "Le Cost Cutter". And (sigh), as always, what's best for me isn't what's best for someone my Dad's age, or someone half my age.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    apparently CR doesn't take riding quiet into account for Honda to do so well

    They've tested both the new Civic and the new Accord, both have more insulation and are quieter.

    Honda's ratings improved, and then the Accord moved up, so I'm sure the quieter ride helped.

    The comments above were from the previous Accord and do not apply to the current offerings/rankings.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited February 2013
    cost cutting is happening at Toyota and Honda as well

    Depends on the model.

    The Accord got DI and a backup camera is now standard, what's the opposite of cost cutting? Re-contenting, maybe? Civic is better now, also.

    Toyota is refreshing the Camry after one model year to update the tech and add some nicer materials. Not unlike the refresh for the 'bu.

    Consumers have noticed and complain loudly, so they add stuff back. It's a cycle. The accountants say we can save 3 cents per unit here or there, then they see if anyone notices.

    This applies to both imports like the Fusion and domestically made cars like the Camry. ;)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Hopefully no other terrible events in Japan will completely hamstrung assembly of those all-American Toyotas!

    (And it was terrible, absolutely no doubt.)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    And HD Ford pickups, too!

    Hey, like it or not, it's a global economy. If the Camry is 90% American, it's still 10% from some place else. All it takes is a single part that isn't sourced from any other location.

    Remember they could not get a certain black paint?
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    On the contrary, I've read a few reviews that commend Honda for improving the NVH on the new Accord. Still not the quietest, but the db's have dropped 8 or 9 pts over the outgoing model.

    Juke reliability should be documented by now but I have not read anything bad on the Juke forums. Most people just don't like the looks (Including myself) :shades:
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Not being able to get black paint isn't exactly the same as halting production.

    In my lifetime, when there was a tire strike, new cars were shipped without spare tires (to be added later). Near the beginning of the U.S.'s involvement in WWII, cars were shipped with 'blackout' trim since chromium was needed early on in the war effort. Some of that 10% must be pretty major parts that cars couldn't be shipped without them.

    Make no mistake, I think imports built here is a humongous improvement over the way it used to be, but there are still a ton of Japanese millionaires because of Toyotas built here. I know a lot will say 'who cares?', but it has to be.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Heck, even after the war there were shortages. My Grandpop told me cars would arrive at the dealership with wooden planks in lieu of bumpers. You would have to go back to the dealer to get the bumpers installed after they arrived.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    AutoGuide says so:

    http://youtu.be/u-7mLNyirBk

    As do other reviews I've seen and read.

    Juke is the current ugly champ but the Jeep Cherokee is certainly a challenger for that title.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    wooden planks in lieu of bumpers

    Funny!

    Keep in mind Toyota has a just-in-time inventory system, so they don't exactly stock pile tons of spare parts. Dealers also have less than ideal supply, then and now.

    Once supply is cut off, production ceases.

    Camry was still the best selling car that year, so it didn't hurt them nearly as bad as it being implied.

    I recall there was a certain type of computer chip that was only made there, even VW was affected. They deleted some standard equipment on some models temporarily (backup cam? something like that).

    Beats a wooden plank for a bumper!
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Heck, even after the war there were shortages. My Grandpop told me cars would arrive at the dealership with wooden planks in lieu of bumpers.

    I've heard of that and in fact have seen photos of new cars so-equipped then.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Not being able to get black paint isn't exactly the same as halting production.

    I would call that a nitpick. If one random part or ingredient is not available, then it can halt production. In Ford's case it was luck that it was paint, and there were a lot of other colors, so only halted production for one color. If it is some other part that is critical to the entire line, then the line stops.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think VW's was a chip used for the backup cam, so they actually could not produce models with a highly desirable package.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    I think it is very clear that Ford did not utilize the number or type of Japanese-sourced parts as Toyota did.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I think it is very clear that Ford did not utilize the number or type of Japanese-sourced parts as Toyota did.

    Ultimately it's about US-content vs. others. And the "NA Sourced" measure is imperfect because it includes Canada (does it include Mexico as well?).

    What is the relative US sourced content of the two vehicles in question? Or are you just against Japanese parts, but not concerned about other non-US parts?
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    Juke is the current ugly champ but the Jeep Cherokee is certainly a challenger for that title.

    At least the Cherokee will be somewhat practical. The Juke is a bit useless, similiar to the old Suzuki X90 of the 90s.

    image

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    I'm for the big picture....a combination of historical management corporate headquarters and design, place of manufacture of vehicle, engine, and trans, and percentage of NA parts (U.S. and Canada are combined on the content label), plus who employs the greatest number of Americans and utilizes the most U.S. suppliers and their employees. And yes, I'd prefer Canadian to Japanese as a supplier of parts for a number of reasons if it can't be U.S.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited February 2013
    In Ford's case their production would suffer far more if, say, a hurricane hit Mexico.

    The Japanese pay far better wages, Mexicans at auto plants work for peanuts.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "...similiar to the old Suzuki X90..."

    Well, not exactly, since the Juke has a back seat and more storage space than the X90.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    Ok, so a little bit more practical, but still not really an SUV, not really a sports car, smaller than most sedan. It's a neat personal car but that's about it.

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

This discussion has been closed.