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The Current State of the US Auto Market

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Comments

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,638
    Can't think of many domestics I would want from Y2K either.

    Even though I've owned two of them, an Intrepid and my Park Ave, I don't think there's really anything I'd want from that year, either. There have simply been too many years that have gone by, so even if it's a car that I might have liked when it was new, I don't know that I'd trust it anymore as a used car.

    Maybe if I found a low-mileage Panther or something, but even there, you can get much newer ones at bargain-basement prices, so why settle for something almost 14 years old?

    I'd be willing to go a few years further back though, and get something like a Roadmaster, Caprice, or RWD Fleetwood, though. And, even though I'm not exactly in love with my Park Ave right now, I might be willing to take a chance on a '95-99 Riviera.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,027
    Here's another little mind game. Think about buying a new car. What brand comes to mind first? Why do you think is was that make and model?

    2014 Chevrolet Impala--under the guise of it being for my wife. ;)
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Just saw a new Lincoln MKZ 2.0T on the road with temporary tags. It was white with a young woman driving it which kind of surprised me. She was scooting right along with the windows down an panoramic roof open.

    Interesting look, though white really isn't the best color for that car.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    So, the "mightiest nation" in the world has car companies that fail like 3rd-world manufacturers.

    What a relief! :cry:
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Here's another little mind game. Think about buying a new car. What brand comes to mind first? Why do you think is was that make and model?

    Kia, Mazda and Honda since my recent experiences are the best I've experienced in my car-buying years. Lincoln would come after, as the 2 i've owned were particularly reliable and satisfying. BMW would be next for the performance but the costs are no longer worth it, afaic. :shades:
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited May 2013
    Would be nice to see some of these newer models with the In dash Interface contain the user manual data. heck, there are APPS being built into cars nowadays, might as well include one for searchable car info...

    Absolutely! They should be voice-activated to answer your questions regarding using all that techno babble!

    You're a genius!!
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Yeah, my Mom's 1988 P.O.S. Caddy had a digital readout. On one trip to Florida when she came home she asked my brother what it means when "85" kept blinking on the speedo!!!

    When he told here she PAST the limits of the display, she was very impressed!

    She stated, "No wonder I kept passing cars like they were in reverse!!" :surprise:
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Both unions and Detroit 3 managements totally underestimated the demand for foreign cars in general, and Japanese cars in particular. Unions were greedy, and the blindness of Detroit's executives was due partly to arrogance and denial.

    The response that GM's President Smith gave to a reporter who asked how would GM compete with low priced Toyotas was very telling. Smith answered, with used Buicks." It seemed heThe exact wording of the question and answer may differ a little, but that was the essence of that exchange. I think that says a lot about the attitude of Detroit's management and the union leaders, since they also didn't get it.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,027
    edited May 2013
    To expand on my choice of the Impala--to me, there's no luxury like that of interior space. Throw in quiet (which I'd expect in the car), and for under $30K for what I'd probably get, I don't know what else could touch it. Being American-built is obviously a plus for me.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    It is an overwhelming argument for you to buy the new one. No doubt about it and I never drove one yet! ;)

    Seriously, your Malibu was a home run from the prior 'Bu in 2008 and this Impala is yet another cut above.

    At least the bailout is finally bearing some nice fruit! :)
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited May 2013
    European cites, but not in Europe.

    They're in China.

    http://www.messynessychic.com/2012/11/20/made-in-china-european-clone-towns/

    And, if you liked the housing bubble in the US, you're gonna love it when the Chinese bubble pops.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Heck, I think we may on are way to another housing bubble right here in America thanks (yet again) the federal reserve and it's policies. Artificial interest rates and currency values seldom end pretty. Think Volcker (too high), Greenspan (too low), and now Bernanke. I agree that a burst bubble will be hitting China and it's economy one of these days. Sadly though, when it happens all of the globe will be affected.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Globalization was *supposed* to stabilize markets, but lo and behold, when the ship springs a leak, the rats still scurry off it, just like in the old days.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    As I get older I truly believe that over time everything tends to regress to the mean (or homeostasis as the scientists say). You diversify from stocks to oil, but now oil tends to move in tandem with stocks. Same for REIT's. Most humans move en mass (unfortunately too often like lemmings).
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    edited May 2013
    Well, mightiest is relative - might only be because others have fallen harder.

    And third world...many American standards are heading in that direction (public education and healthcare, socio-economic chasm, residential building standards, transportation infrastructure, immigration policy, crime and punishment, responsibility and ethics of the top few, responsibility of the public sector and corporate world alike, I could go on and on), as the idea of first world itself is on shaky ground thanks to the relentless race to the bottom afforded by globalization and the market oligarchy masquerading as democracy and capitalism that has evolved from it. But yeah. Other first world nations generally aid their industrial base more than us, anyway.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    Or maybe an Aurora? I liked both generations - but I guess they can be troublesome.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    Your mom sounds pretty cool. But then again, I think digital displays can be cool too - the 80s are my childhood and all.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    Prices are rising in my area, but supply seems to be at play too - so many are still upside down, and even with economic improvements creating new buyers, they aren't able to break even just yet. I'd see a Canadian and Chinese bubble pop first though - so much of the US is still dirt cheap compared to other developed nations.

    Part of the fracturing of the US as a whole - I could see it eventually breaking into several regionally based alliances.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    edited May 2013
    How much was spent on the Honda TL on Scheduled maintenance?
    And of course does the TL owner realize that's just one example, certainly not typical of costs.


    I don't have my records with me to add them up, but it wasn't much since I don't go the dealer but to an independent.

    That's great you've found the typical costs, do you have a link? I'm sure Chevy Escalades cost more. ;)

    I won't put in a reference to the "perfect" cars that some have always used in their anti-GM, anti-US manufacturer, postings in the previous forum, because I think some have come to understand that no cars are perfect.

    Well my car is certainly not perfect. It has had dash rattles and a bit of a crunchy noise in the suspension. It should also have height adjustment on the passenger seat as it's too low. Only some people think certain cars are perfect. :P

    There's a difference between being anti-US manufacturer and critical of GM. Even if my kid was a druggie and I was critical of them and tough with them, it might just be done because of concern rather than dislike. ;)

    Just trying for a bit of balance against those "perfect" statements!
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Sounds like the car's "Integra"ty held up with "Vigor".

    That's because it's "Legend"ary!
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    the right size, inside and out. Even though I prefer bigger cars, it still seemed to fit me well. And I thought the style was just about the perfect balance between sporty and conservative.

    I believe you have the years correct; mine is an '05. They have very high resale value, even though I'm not reselling anytime soon. Or at least until my tranny dies. ;)
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Relative to and defined by what? This is a "chart" where the three types of lies could come into play.

    They would especially be lies if they supported my point of view and didn't support yours!

    No matter, we get to play the same game as the competition, or not allow their game to be played on our playground. No other options.

    Well, the other option is the way actually is -- there are two games and it's the option you say doesn't exist. Not that I agree with it, either. Perhaps you could fling some money at Congress to get them to consider a change. I'm sure only a few $billion would help them see your point of view.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,122
    edited May 2013
    >Well my car is certainly not perfect. It has had dash rattles and a bit of a crunchy noise in the suspension. It should also have height adjustment on the passenger seat as it's too low.

    Now that's reality from a car owner. Honesty.

    >a bit of balance against those "perfect" statements!

    You certainly have to admit there was trolling of the GM topic with anti-GM, if not anti-US, repetition to the point past boredom. And of course there have been through the decades all those reports from other owners of how perfect their foreign brand vehicles were. That didn't match with the vehicles I had driven when shopping or had ridden in with friends. It also didn't match with occasional posts, sometimes deridden by fans in protest, on those other brand's discussions even here on Edmunds.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,027
    Prepare to hear that Big Three auto executives should be put to death, and to hear a word that no intelligent person has used in decades, referring to the mentally-challenged, used to describe those who prefer to buy domestic brands. Both have been used here by a regular anti-domestic poster--the same one, actually.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    That's true about the owner's manuals! My first car - a 1968 Buick Special Deluxe - had an owners manual that was a bit larger than the flyer they hand out at church. My 2007 DTS has one as thick as a Microsoft Office manual.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I did that same trick to my wife when I had my 1994 Cadillac DeVille. I was going 65 MPH on the turnpike, switched the display to metric, and it looked like we we going over 100! She's like, "Slow down! You're gonna get us killed!"
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Some of the early Lexi had bad leather. I see a lot of older ones with crumbling seats and steeing wheels though the rest of the car doesn't look bad. I understand the gauge clusters and power steering pumps were a weak spot.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,638
    I can still do a similar trick in the Park Ave. It has an analog speedo with only one set of numbers, and there's a button to toggle back and forth between English and Metric. If you're going 60 mph and press the button, the speedo needle will suddenly jump up to 100.

    Oh, and on the subject of Park Ave gauges, it turns out the fuel gauge needle did indeed go all the way around, and is on the wrong side of the peg. I tried the magnet trick to see if I could get it to move back around, but no luck. Got it to move about 1/2 inch, at least. I think if I can find a stronger magnet, it'll do the trick.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I'd either like to get rid of my Grand Marquis and get a new 2014 Impala or get rid of my Grand Marquis, get my wife either a new Buick LaCrosse or even a Cadillac ATS and use her current ride as my hooptie.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,122
    >I think if I can find a stronger magnet, it'll do the trick.

    That may work. Or you can drill a small hole through the plastic cover so you can use a paperclip to lift it back into place.

    This needle getting out of place happened when people had battery problems.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Check the sending unit. It's often the culprit of fuel gauge maladies. The car is 14 model years old, so little stuff like that is bound to break sometime. Heck, most folks don't have a car around that long. I doubt Cadillac thought anybody would hold onto a 1989 Brougham for nearly 25 years! :P
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I've never understood the appeal of these "mild hybrid" vehicles.

    Extra costs to purchase, higher maintenance, less trunk space, and all for not any real significant increase in mileage.

    And, if one thinks their dealership has difficulty repairing their traditionally-designed vehicle, just wait until they get ahold of a hybrid with a problem.

    Seems to me like more of a feel-good, I'm environmentally conscious decision than a rational one, IMO.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,027
    Check the sending unit. It's often the culprit of fuel gauge maladies

    I've said this before, but I definitely wouldn't pay for any fuel gauge repair without trying Techron (black bottle) first. It worked for me in our Uplander, and there are a bunch of things saying the same thing online, for all kinds of cars.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,027
    I'm not interested in any hybrid vehicle--for me, not worth the added cost--and the partial hybrids--haven't I read that trunk room is reduced because of it? Who the heck wants that?

    You read it here.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,638
    I've never understood the appeal of these "mild hybrid" vehicles.

    Same here. I wonder if GM should have simply bought the hybrid equipment from Toyota, like Nissan did with the Altima?

    I thought some of those "mild hybrid" trucks were a good idea, under the right circumstances. You didn't get much mileage boost, but they were good for construction sites and places where a portable generator would come in handy.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    What's Techron? Where do you get it?
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,027
    You pour it in a nearly-empty tank. It's made by Chevron. I can buy it at any cheapo big-chain auto parts store. It's like $11 a bottle, but I use it preventively in my cars now. Besides cleaning internal engine parts, it actually says on it, helps erratic fuel gauge sensors by cleaning sulfur deposits. It did work for me.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    Well, you know The three types of lies , right?

    The way it actually is (or has devolved to), according to our "I built it" pseudo-capitalists is a road to eventual ruin. It must change. My options are based on survival, which requires a more defendable playing field. A few billion? Chump change in 2013, just one beloved tax haven foreign aid dependent will suck down that much and more this year alone.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    It seems early 90s Japanese leather is hit and miss - either OK, or it completely rots away - with the bad ones being more common.

    The modern base Lexus leather is nothing to brag about either, and I've read complaints about modern models with dashboard plastic that falls apart. Even the supposedly perfect have issues.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    It seems early 90s Japanese leather is hit and miss - either OK, or it completely rots away - with the bad ones being more common.

    That mirrors the experience of what I've seen over the years.

    American and European auto leather interiors seem to have had a significantly higher quality content than the Japanese leather.

    Or, maybe the Japanese make owners I know just don't take as much care of their interiors.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Generally speaking, the "best" cars and trucks are probably the best-selling ones, especially if their ranking stays high year after year (so that you don't get fooled by the initial rush to a novelty item).

    One can certainly find legitimate faults with any car, but, for instance, if we go back to when Lexus beating the stuffings out of Mercedes in the early 1990s, they picked off a lazy, complaisant competitor----not with a perfect product, but rather one that hit that sweet spot of "bang for the buck".

    Toyota figured that most Americans didn't care if the LS400 hugged the road like the Benz, or had that wonderful global reputation---they wanted a cushy, good looking luxury car that wasn't in the shop every month---in other words, there was an excellent opportunity to steal market share from Cadillac and Benz, both of which were vulnerable.

    Introducing the Lexus was a very shrewd move, and by and large, the Japanese "did their homework" and did not introduce a half-baked product to market, like some people we know tended to do. :P
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,027
    A good friend is driving his late parents' Lexus SC300. I'm largely unimpressed. He told me it cost $45K in 1995. It looks like a compact car with nice leather inside to me. But what do I know. (There, I keep on saying that! LOL)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You'd have to compare it to other 1995 cars of the time, and it measured up quite well for the "luxury touring" segment. It is a bit bland but it was actually not a computer generated design, rather "hand styled" like in the old days.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,027
    I remember a friend who would refuse to ride in the back seat of my Cavalier two-door to a Stude meet in York, PA, but he accepted riding in the backseat of my buddy's parents' SC300. Now, I didn't have soft leather in my car, but I showed him how there was actually more legroom in the back of a Cavalier coupe than a Lexus SC300. He simply refused to believe it...even after I showed him the numbers! People believe what they want to believe...or more likely, hate to admit anything! LOL
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    edited May 2013
    Designing your cars based on the competition (first LS was an obvious W126 copy) and dumping them as loss leaders (was any profit made on the original LS at <40K? no way) helps, too. Add good engineering and very kiss-kiss customer service, and the brand was bound to succeed. It has helped the market, if anything, to keep prices down - an E class would probably be 100K today if not for the competition. It also moved the customer service of some makes out of the dark ages.

    Regarding the original SC, a Lexus I like, especially if not wearing gaudy period-correct gold emblems. SC300 is an I6, hard not to like that. Very dated today, but was really something back in the olden days.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited May 2013
    People believe what they want to believe...or more likely, hate to admit anything!

    There's more than a grain of truth in that statement.

    Marketers rely on that bit of human "self-deception" to sell us all sorts of products and services, not to mention politicians and the tactics they use to get votes.

    That's why I really enjoy the show Brain Games now being aired on NatGeo. Watch a few of these 30 minute programs and one quickly realizes the extremes people and companies will (and quite often do) go to in order to manipulate us.

    As it relates to your incident, usually all it takes is a single commercial viewing claiming car A has more interior room than car B to convince someone that car A excels in every aspect of interior room, not just total. Once that mindset is put into place, its very difficult to dislodge that misconception.

    Politicians know this all too well, and its why they attempt to insinuate that an unpopular program or legislation implemented under their watch was really done under someone else's.

    If you can get your idea placed into someone else's mind first, you've got the best chance of keeping it there.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Regarding the original SC, a Lexus I like, especially if not wearing gaudy period-correct gold emblems. SC300 is an I6, hard not to like that. Very dated today, but was really something back in the olden days.

    I agree. It was definitely a better car than a Lincoln Mark VIII or Cadillac Eldo/ETC. Also, you could get the SC300 with a manual.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,638
    I think the problem with the Lexus SC300 is that there's also some temptation to lump it into the "personal luxury coupe" catch-all, which was still filled with cars like the Eldorado, Mark VIII, and Riviera. Cars that tended to put more emphasis on style and hedonism, than practicality or sportiness. It would probably compare more directly with the likes of the BMW 8-series of the time. Dunno if Benz really had anything directly comparable, as its hardtop coupes of the era seemed much bigger. And more upscale.

    The SC300 in those days was probably a lot like the Hyundai Genesis of today. Sure, it might be a very nice car, and might be competitive, but when you get into this class, it's all about brand image. And back in 1995, that's something Lexus was still working on.

    I'll say one thing for it...those SC's were much classier than that SC430 retractable hardtop thing that followed.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    edited May 2013
    The SC was kind of an in-betweener - not fullsize lux, not really sporty - more tuned to the softer side but could be had with a manual. More of a MB than a BMW.

    image

    MB still had the CE (E class hardtop coupe) back then (through 1995 here), but no manuals for NA - however in Europe you could get it with a 4cyl and manual. Heck, in Europe today, you can get the current E (hardtop) coupe and cabrio as a manual and diesel. A diesel convertible with a stick. Unimaginable here.

    The second SC is a ghastly thing.
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