The Current State of the US Auto Market

circlew · September 2013

Good luck with the purchase. Hope it works out for you.

uplanderguy · September 2013

Thank you.

dieselone · September 2013

Wow. What a month. Toyota sold 44.7k Camrys. Honda sold nearly 40k Civics and Accords each. The Cruze had another good month with nearly 25k sold. Ford sold nearly 25k Fusions and 20k for the Focus. The Malibu had a decent month with nearly 17k. 13k Impalas sold, but I think that includes the old model too.

As for Trucks, the F150 is still on fire with over 70k sold, which is 9k more than the Silverado/Sierra combined. Don't know if GM is fully ramped up with the '14 models yet though.

uplanderguy · September 2013

http://www.ibtimes.com/toyota-recall-2013-highlander-hybrid-suvs-lexus-rx-400h-v- ehicles-recalled-safety-full-list-1402634

Maybe it's already been listed here, but Ford had a fairly large recall last week too, although it was on Crown Victorias.

uplanderguy · September 2013

As it ended up, we couldn't line up picking the car up with when the seller was home this weekend. Found out he lives there but works in S.E. OH, 2 hrs. 15 min. drive from us, so he said he'd trailer the car to where he works in OH and we could pick it up there next Tuesday...no extra charge (he drives a truck there anyway). Hard to say 'no' to that! Saves probably five hours each way for us, at least, and no hotel required.

dieselone · September 2013

I'd gladly wait a few days to save all of that time. Sounds like a win/win to me.

andres3 · September 2013

Well written AnythingbutGM!

I would say, since the largest automobile company in the world was driven into a ditch at a steep nosedive angle, into oblivion had it not been for massive multi-billion dollar bailouts, that a balanced forum would be decidedly biased against GM. After all, how can a company with such negative results the last 40 years have much other than criticism, complaints, and negative viewpoints?

Being a GM fan is sort of like being a Cubs fan? How do Cubs fans stay positive? Or maybe a San Diego Chargers fan? I'm not one.

stickguy · September 2013

odd arrangement. especially for something you got such a good deal on. Me, I would have made your life hard hoping you backed out, so I could relist and get more for it!

Where the car is at is about 20 minutes from me. And right across the river from Lemko, since the bridge runs from him to Cinnaminson.

xrunner2 · September 2013

Andres3 said: "Being a GM fan is sort of like being a Cubs fan? How do Cubs fans stay positive? "

There is a commercial here on radio in Northern Illinois for the Cubs. It has a parent coaching an infant to root for the "Cubbies". Pathetic. Probably a good amount of Cubs fans are brainwashed by their parents and indoctrinated to root for the perennial loser. Maybe a parallel here to children who grow up in an American brand "only" household (GM, Ford, Chrysler) and they too blindly follow the buying habits of their parents when they become adults.

stever · September 2013

There's always next year.

In the case of the automakers, the slogan may be "there's always next quarter".

uplanderguy · September 2013

Blindly=not considering a domestic in the year 2013.

And I certainly admire someone who stands by their favorite team, over a 'fairweather fan' only 'sheeple'! LOL

lemko · September 2013

I'm a fan of all Philadelphia teams win or lose.

stever · September 2013

I tend to follow players, so when Peyton moved to Denver, I became a fan of the Broncos. I'm following Detroit because of Kellen but I don't root for the Tigers. I follow the Yanks because of Robertson, but I really prefer the Mets.

So, I really like Miatas, but don't really trust CX-5s. Seems like they all have their hits and misses.

xrunner2 · September 2013

Professional sports teams provide value in terms of entertainment. If entertainment is poor, such as a movie rated at one star by a number of reviewers, why bother to waste time and money to go see it or buy the video? Likewise with professional sports teams that are performing poorly. Such as the Cubs or White Sox of Chicago this year.

Of course, some people just go to the ballpark for the ambiance. That would be Wrigley Field and the vines so say some fans. Cubs fans love that ballpark. Interestingly, it was termed a "Dump" by the manager of the White Sox in 2005, when the Sox won the World Series.

fintail · September 2013

Even the Flyers? :P

uplanderguy · September 2013

Good for you, lemko!

I'm one of those weird guys who doesn't watch sports, but trust me, it takes a special person to be a perennial Cleveland sports fan! I have some friends who are extremely loyal in that respect.

andres3 · September 2013

The fact is I had parents that were for good reason anti-domestic growing up as a kid in the 80's and a teenager in the 90's.

The '82 Accord 5-speed was a ultra reliable tank and it took getting hit at 50 MPH in a rear-end collision to knock it into being totaled.. Funny; we still used it for several weeks after that accident and it still kept on ticking; but insurance said it was totaled. I'm almost sure they fixed it up and resold it for profit. I think it was an '80 Audi Wagon my father got; it had a bunch of issues, especially electrical gremlins, a cracked dash, and uncomfortable super hot black seats, but it never needed to be towed. They got a mid 80's Subaru wagon that was underpowered but reliable. The previous Audi didn't stop him from getting a '87 VW Jetta GL. They also got a early 90's Toyota 4Runner. None of these cars required tow trucks to get around despite some issues with the VW/Audi's; which were mainly electrical and clutches from having 3 different drivers (Parents and older brother drove the Jetta). The Japanese cars were truly flawless or as close to it as possible.

After that it was '94 Camry, then Mom still drives the '01 Camry, and for Dad currently an aging Lexus ES 300 (all bought new except Lexus was used from Carmax).

So in between, in 1994 I convinced my Dad that we should try the new Dodge Neon since I gave him the marketing BS from Chrysler about how they changed, were new and improved, the "NEW" Dodge, new HQ building, and all that crap. He warned me about the reliability of American cars. I did not heed his wisdom, and pushed for the Neon (seemed like more bang for the buck at the time compared to the Civic). Really all I was looking at is new, under $15K, horsepower and 0-60 times though. If someone would have told me the 0-60 time goes to infinity when the car's in the shop; maybe I'd have chosen more wisely.

Based on those previous car experiences, my Brother has fully gone Toyota (T100 to Tundra to Lexus Large SUV to Corolla). Recently he got a early 90's Mazda 626 since he mostly just drives the gov't vehicle around due to his work.

He finally learned his lesson with $4 gas and stopped getting gas guzzlers with the Corolla.

My parents obviously like their problem-free Camry/Toyota/Lexus experiences.

For some reason my Neon experience hasn't led to any future sales for Chrysler for any of my close friends or family.

For some reason my childhood memories of the Honda and Audi/VW have led me to go back. My actual experiences keep me going back.

'03 Accord Coupe LX V6, '06 A3 2.0T DSG, '14 S4 on order....

I'm sure it's all just in my head, and my memories are all inaccurate. This delusion must apply to all Americans based on market share.

The part where the delusion gets fuzzy though is that I keep close track of what things cost me. I'm a penny pincher some would say. I did tow my A3 twice, once for a faulty battery, and once for a puncture in the gas tank causing a slow leak. Neither was really the car's fault, and I was just taking advantage of the free roadside assistance from Audi; never would have towed it if I was paying. I was busy and didn't want to waste any time trying to jump it, plus all I had were .99 cent cables that didn't really work.

So in all of my recollection, the one Domestic vehicle we had remains the only one that truly required tow trucks due to its own fault (4 times per 65,000 miles). Oh, and the "just maintain it properly" line is true with German cars, but is a load of crap in regards to American cars. All of our cars were equally maintained properly.

andres3 · September 2013

I honestly can't recall a tow truck ever visiting my childhood home except for my Neon (which was needed after it's first night in the garage). Even the Accord slammed into at high speed was able to limp itself to the desired location. I think the '87 Jetta after 100K miles quit on us on the way to the local grocery store (probably electrical issues), and that led my father to retire the car when it must of needed its first tow truck.

Oh, my older brother had a phase where he was into old muscle cars and had a couple 60's GTO's. Unfortunately, Pontiac is domestic and I think those saw some tow trucks as well.

uplanderguy · September 2013

I've never heard that story before.

lemko · September 2013

Yup. Even the Flyers. I'm old enough to remember the "Broad Street Bullies" of the 1970s. I beleive the classic hockey movie "Slapshot" starring Paul Newman was loosely based on them.

lemko · September 2013

Never had any towtruck visit my household either unless it was the ultra-aggressive Philadelphia Parking Authority!

andres3 · September 2013

Sharing the same suppliers does not mean that Supplier A will give Honda the same crap they give GM. Specifications and quality control play a large part here. Lots of manufacturers make both excellent products at the high end, and complete crap at the low end these days.

andres3 · September 2013

You must have gotten a dog, or I got the V-6? My rental Avenger moved out smartly enough.

_____

That's one of the biggest reasons I trust CR over all others. Buying the so-called "dogs" just like everyone else seems to give more accurate information than accepting the "ringer" from the manufacturer for testing and reviews.

andres3 · September 2013

All I know is that a 6 year old Neon with 65,000 miles in "good" condition fetched an initial offer of $800 from the Toyota dealer my parents visited for trade-in value.

Was the Toyota dealer being snobby with that low ball offer? Perhaps, but it's a true story.

Frankly, I wouldn't have paid $8.00 for that car knowing what I knew.

andres3 · September 2013

I personally give myself credit for at least somewhat considering a domestic car in 2013.

I even test drove the new ATS both 2013 and 2014 models in 2.0T and 3.6 variants.

I had to shake my head at the ridiculousness of the overpriced sticker (50K typically equipped), and the fact the dealer must of had 25 or more ATS' on the lot; many of them still 2013 models.

Perhaps with so many on the lot they'd consider a low ball offer on one, but I also shook my head at the "shortened" 70K mile power train warranty.

I felt the car needed refinement and tuning in the suspension and drive train. They absolutely need a dual clutch auto-manual gearbox. And yes, all for about $30K if they are going to put cardboard-like ill-fitting moonroof covers inside.

robr2 · September 2013

Yup. Even the Flyers. I'm old enough to remember the "Broad Street Bullies" of the 1970s. I beleive the classic hockey movie "Slapshot" starring Paul Newman was loosely based on them.

The movie was based on the general style of play of minor league hockey in the 70's. Anybody with talent was in the NHL. To make a name in the minors, lots of players became goons in order to attract the attention of the big club.

The Charlestown Chiefs were based on the Johnstown Jets. At some point they renamed themselves the Chiefs in homage to the movie.

circlew · September 2013

Nice sales month in August. Here's a quick bottom line on share. (GM did quite well and reduced fleet sales also)

In terms of market share, Ford and Honda were gainers, Hyundai-Kia and VW were losers, while GM, Toyota, Chrysler and Nissan held their ground.

Wonder if that will change much going forward?

lemko · September 2013

Johnstown, PA was the setting for fictional town of Charlestown.

ohenryx · September 2013

I was out truck shopping with a friend of mine this afternoon. Hit Chevrolet, Ford, Toyota and Dodge dealers.

Chevrolet is very close to out of stock on the 2013 Silverados, and the 2014's are high. Ford has a lot of 2013's, no 2014's, and they're dealing. The Toyota dealership was a "pilot fish" operation, and we left after that became obvious. Never even got inside of a truck. I didn't know there were dealers still doing that. Incredibly stupid, alienate your potential customers before they can even look at your cars.

Dodge is high. Very, very high. About $8k higher, bottom line, as a similar model Ford. Hell, their 2013's are higher than 2014 Chevy's. Hard to imagine that they're actually selling any trucks at all.

crkyolfrt · September 2013

"The Toyota dealership was a "pilot fish" operation, and we left after that became obvious. "

What do you mean by this? Phishing for a sell? I don't get it..

dieselone · September 2013

"Hard to imagine that they're actually selling any trucks at all."

I just bought a 2014 Ram 1500 Laramie. Yeah I could have gotten a better deal on a Ford, but I liked the Ram enough to pay more for it.

The F150 is a great truck, but I don't want to buy new the year before a new model regardless of how much money they throw on the hood.

Plus I don't buy new vehicles often, so I figured I'd buy what I wanted, not what I could get the best deal on.

circlew · September 2013

Best of Luck with the new Ram. It was Truck of the Year. It did quite well last month in the Top 10 sold.

Vehicle August 2013 Year-to-date
Ford F-Series 71,115 499,050
Toyota Camry 44,713 287,119
Chevrolet Silverado 43,603 328,269
Honda Civic 39,458 230,578
Honda Accord 38,559 256,926
Honda CR-V 34,654 207,643
Ram pickup 33,009 234,642
Nissan Altima 30,976 228,297
Toyota Prius 27,358 170,866
Toyota Corolla/Matrix 26,861 210,296

robr2 · September 2013

The F150 is a great truck, but I don't want to buy new the year before a new model regardless of how much money they throw on the hood.

Hmmmm??

Most folks won't be a first year model due to the learning curve but last model year usually are the best quality.

dieselone · September 2013

"Most folks won't be a first year model due to the learning curve but last model year usually are the best quality."

I understand that line of thinking, but if that is what most folks do, GM (for example only) wouldn't have huge discounts on '13 Silverados and none on the new '14 model.

ohenryx · September 2013

The term pilot fish in relation to a car dealership comes from the pilot fish to loan shark relationship. The pilot fish steers customers to a loan shark. The loan shark is a predatory, blood sucking monster, who most people would avoid at any time. He has to be, he is the one who makes you pay up, who sends around the leg breakers if you dont pay.

The pilot fish is a nice guy, he helps you out by telling you where you can get money if no one else will make you a loan.

At a car dealership employing this sales technique, the shark, the true salesman, stays in the background. He never greets anyone at the door, he does not show you around the lot, he does not take you for a test drive. The pilot fish does all of the above. And he knows absolutely nothing about pricing. He may or may not know answer questions about the actual car (gas mileage, performance, etc), but he will answer nothing, profess to have no knowledge of any kind about pricing.

Lets just go inside, and someone will answer all of your questions about pricing (or financing or whatever).

stickguy · September 2013

I think this is also known as a liner/closer store?

andre1969 · September 2013

I just bought a 2014 Ram 1500 Laramie. Yeah I could have gotten a better deal on a Ford, but I liked the Ram enough to pay more for it.

Congratulations! And welcome to the dark side. :P

js06gv · September 2013

So did you dump your Expedition? I've never been a Mopar guy, but I did at least consider a new Ram when I bought my F150 King Ranch in March. I really like what Ram has done with the interior lately. Their Laramie Longhorn edition rivals the King Ranch in interior trimmings. And while I'm very happy with the 5.0 motor, a Hemi would still have a little more grunt.

Congrats on the new purchase!

dieselone · September 2013

Thanks.

Yep, I traded in the Expedition. Overall it was good vehicle considering the abuse it endured. But at nearly 130k, it was time to go.

I really like the F150's. Like you mentioned, the interior of the Ram really drew me in. Plus the 8 speed trans is very slick (well until it breaks).

I'm not "mine is best...period" type. Particularly with trucks. I think they all have their advantages/disadvantages.

For whatever reason, I just liked the combination of looks (inside and out) of the Ram the best, plus I really like how it drives.

The F150 King Ranch is a heck of a truck. I have several friends with late model F150's and they all love them.

I just wanted something a little different.

crkyolfrt · September 2013

Interesting. I guess I have run into that..although only maybe a couple times..never knew there was a term for it. What I have run into though after a deal has been agreed upon, you are walked into the business mgr's office, and then be exposed to all the attempted up-sales..

Plus, I guess I am immune to their technique then. OTOH though, there are a few turn-offs that I see every once in awhile from the salesman's level. If I know more about the car I'm interested in on their turf, than they do, that is a huge turn-off. It sorta depends I guess on the brand and how many offerings they have if judging a level of excusing their ignorance. Still though, if I were a salesman at a new brand that I was not as familiar with, I would educate the you-know-what outta myself so that I could come across as confident about my brand (and the varied models within it, no matter how vast) and be as helpful to a potential customer as I possibly could.

Another turn-off is, if you catch them not really listening to you...responding yes to something said that I don't really think they would have said yes to had they been listening..if that happens I am then in full use-'em mode..

So if the guy that greets me, knows a LOT about the car, then lies to me that he has no clue as to pricing, well....I'll use him/her for purposes that are useful to me, and then I will use the shark (if there are no other choices) to do the paperwork and take my money. The thing is though, I have never ever fallen into the category were I had to pay higher rates due to my credit rating...even back when I financed cars when I was in my early 20's. (I haven't financed since then, unless it was 0%...and even then, only if the math proved that no better cash deal could be had by committing my own invested cash) for over 30 years. So I guess I have always been in the driver's seat as long as what I was buying was mainstream or the colour, options etc were not in short supply.

There is a local Toyota dealer I popped into the other day as I intended to drive a hybrid so that I can put to rest my curiosity about them..and maybe end up owning one...who knows..I intend to use them for my purposes and in the end there will be an ultimatum on the table which will amount to primarily $. It will be an opportunity for them to right some wrongs they tried to get away with when I bought a new Matrix back in 03. Things like instead of freight being 1099.00 they tried to get away with 1199.00 and thought I wouldn't notice. And instead of having had the contract filled out correctly including the extra 200 buck Red Tag days discount, tried to sweep that under the rug too.."Well, we already have the contract typed up.." To myself...well gee...isn't that a shame.. you'll have to type up another one..
And there were quite a number of other negative issues regarding the delivery of it..ranging from a botched front license plate hacking, to a mark on the headliner that was there AFTER the lot boy had 'detailed' it.

Nope...if I decide on a Toyota on the next car, I am going to 'tax' them for their attempted sneaky dishonesty. And if they don't 'pay up' when I'm ready to sign-up, they won't sell me the car. Instead they will have no return whatsoever on the wasted gas, time, and miles I intend to put on their cars when I do my test drives. Instead, I will go to the next dealer a little farther away and suggest that since I already know exactly what I want, they need not invest any of that time and $ so that potential outlay can be kicked back in my direction...or maybe we'll split it..

The moral here as I see it...don't mess with me if you are a dealer that exercises in dirty, sneaky practices. There will be some customers who are not at their loan-shark mercy and that customer could come back and retaliate with their terms..

uplanderguy · September 2013

I swung by the nearest Chevy dealer to me. I'd guess his new-car inventory is about 100 units. I saw one Impala. By far the biggest stock was '13 Malibus, then Cruzes (including '14's). I did not see a single '14 Malibu. For a short family like me, now is probably a good time to get a great deal on a '13 Malibu. As I'd said earlier, we're picking up our '09 Cobalt Tuesday; hope it's what it's supposed to be (eBay).

The '14 Camaro was a black SS model with black wheels. I was surprised to see new taillights...retro Chevy in that they look somewhat like a "triple" unit on each side with a smallish backup light in the middle red lens.

I've only ever liked the "new" Camaro from the rear. This '14 had the largest tires I think I've seen on a car. It stickered for $37,945....yikes. Built in Oshawa, ON (that doesn't bother me...I looked at new '73 Monte Carlos that were built there), 70% U.S. and Canadian parts content (not bad), but both engine and trans made in Mexico, which I personally dislike for a number of reasons, none having to do with quality.

crkyolfrt · September 2013

GM must use more than one type of 4 cylinder 2.4. If you have ever read the horror stories that continue to go on with new daily victims of the Equinox, then you'd see why I ask. I don't think Malibu or La Crosse and Regal owners are having anywhere near that level of grief are they? Or maybe they are..

The GM Oshawa plant has a fairly good build quality reputation don't they?

I used to weld frame rails for the Van plant about 30 min west of there back in the 70's. There was no dope smoking or drinking in the parking lots on break that you tend to read about here in these forums. I have no reason to suspect that the Oshawa plant would be any different.

I have to say, I like the Corvette-like taillight styling cues on many cars GM has done in recent years...even with the Cobalt. And yes, I too like the rear end of most GM cars lately better than their fronts. I guess if I bought one, I'd have to back it in at home so when I go out in the morning I get to see its best side first thing, haha

uplanderguy · September 2013

I have read of oil consumption isues with 4-cyl. Equinox models (as I have with a friend with a '10 4-cyl. Camry), but our Malibu uses zero oil between changes. Fact, I just checked it yesterday. I'm the kind of owner, though, that wouldn't let that happen...I actually check my oil level every so often (maybe I'm lucky).

berri · September 2013

That's interesting. We have a cousin who recently traded in his F-150 for a RAM. He said he did it for two reasons: The Ram drove and road better and his Ford was giving him too many issues after it was out of warranty. I guess he'll find out one way or the other down the road. Personally, we had several Fords and didn't have the best of luck with them either. I don't think your decision is necessarily any riskier than buying an F-150.

robr2 · September 2013

GM must use more than one type of 4 cylinder 2.4.

What I could find on wiki is that the 2.4 is an Ecotec III engine and it's been used in various versions on many different models. It is slated to be replaced by a 2.5 version of the Ecotec III.

berri · September 2013

I'm not sure, but from what I've read I believe there is a before DI and a DI version of the GM 2.4L. Personally, I don't understand why they haven't converted all of their 4 cylinder models to the supposedly much improved 2.5L engine. Mediocrity is not the road to success. "Good e'nuff" is what got them into BK in the first place.

robr2 · September 2013

There have been many versions of the 204L Ecotec. Here is a link to the wiki article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Family_II_engine#Ecotec

I don't know exactly which engines are in which models but since the 2.5L was only introduced for the 2013 for the ATS and Malibu - and now the Impala - I presume their are production and/or marketing reasons for not converting all vehicles over at the same time.

It looks like the Ecotec 2.4L goes back to 2006. Before that there was a 2.4L version of the Quad 4 engine.

Michaell · September 2013

It looks like the Ecotec 2.4L goes back to 2006.

True - when we bought our '06 ION, it had the option of the 2.4L engine.

Too bad we didn't get it. :-(

nvbanker · September 2013

"I know why I continue to buy Chevrolet. It's value, low-cost maintenance, and a competent dealer. Plus, for many reasons, I prefer to buy an American brand. I've bought four new Chevrolets that were built forty miles down the road. All were driven high miles by me, reliably and economically. People who live here, and also live in the town where I grew up forty miles on the other side of the plant, work there. There's no bad in any of that."

You are absolutely right - nothing wrong in any of that, and we are wrong to criticize your choices - which I don't believe we have done. What most of us are saying is, you defend the Chevy as "state of the art, world class, excellent, which is fine, because it's not a "bad" product in the way a Yugo was a "bad" car. But they are also not the undisputed "jewel" of the industry you say they are. Pretty much universally here, I see consensus that the Chevy is a low-end, baseline, cheap, noisy, vibrating and harsh car that runs pretty well, lasts pretty long, and gets the job done in an unremarkable way. Not bad, but not particularly good in any way in particular. In no way, class leading, state of the art, or premium. The Malibu may actually outlive the Kia, but they aren't refined, and saying they are doesn't make it so.

nvbanker · September 2013

"The F150 is a great truck, but I don't want to buy new the year before a new model regardless of how much money they throw on the hood."

I certainly don't criticize your choice - but your rationale escapes me. The truck that outsells the one you bought 2 to 1, outsells every other vehicle sold in the country for 32 years straight, is a better deal - but you didn't buy one because a newer model is due out next year? Usually it's the first year out model to be more afraid of, not the last year, which is usually beyond bullet proof.

The Current State of the US Auto Market

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