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The Current State of the US Auto Market

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited October 2013
    4) "Sonic is built in Korea"

    Low blow, man. You know I thought we were talking about the Spark.

    Ironically the Sonic *is* also built in Korea, just not the ones sold in the USA.

    People make honest mistakes, like when you said CR had never put ranked a GM car at the top of its class while the Corvette indeed was.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Actually, CR used to differentiate by transmission.

    I think I remember that. IIRC, they didn't have a completely different entry for a car versus an automatic, versus one with a stick, but would rather list the manual, and the automatic transmission in with other things like the engine, a/c, body, paint, interior, electrical, and so on.

    I remember they used to break out 6-cyl versus V-8, but that could be a bit misleading, especially during those times where there were often several different V-8's offered. For instance, a 1978 Catalina came standard with a Buick 231 V-6, and that was the only V-6 offered. But with V-8's, there was the Pontiac 301, Buick 350 (Pontiac's 350 was gone after 1977 I believe), Pontiac 400, and if you bought in CA/high altitude areas you got the Olds 350 or 403.

    In fact, that might be one reason why big Pontiacs tended to be rated a bit low in those years, compared to an equivalent Olds or Buick. Pontiacs relied heavily on the 301, with the bigger engines being a bit less common. The LeSabre offered the 301 from something like '77-79, but I think California models got a Chevy 305. And the 350 and 403 were more popular engines in the LeSabre than they were the Catalina and Bonneville. I think the Delta 88 tried out the 301 in 1977, but for 1978 offered only the 260, 350, or 403, all Oldsmobile engines, and all pretty durable.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    When did CR test a Corvette?

    Sorry to use your one example, but sheesh, there's been so much of that type of thing here over time.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    You're right. Under, say, "Dullsmobile XYZ 4-cyl.", they would have an entry for "Manual Trans" and "Auto Trans", and the same under "V6" for that model if it were available.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited October 2013
    You seem to think CR hates everything domestic, I merely pointed out that 4 GM vehicles (3 trucks, 1 car) were sitting at the top of their classes in the current Buying Guide.

    Don't shoot the messenger.

    If a Corvette hadn't been tested in a while, yet CR let it remain at the top of the ratings, that's pretty generous towards GM, don't you agree?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Would be nice to have that sort of break down by trans type, given some vehicles come with manual, CVT, or slushbox.

    May not be practical, though. There may not a big enough sample for manuals, given the low take rate.

    If you see a black dot the best thing to do is ask on these boards. Good example: the 1991-1995 Mazda 626 4 banger auto was lousy, but the V6 auto was fine. The manual trans was fine for both engines.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Good example: the 1991-1995 Mazda 626 4 banger auto was lousy, but the V6 auto was fine.

    I knew someone who had a 1993 Ford Probe 4-cyl/auto, which I think used the same drivetrain? Anyway, his transmission was shot around 30,000 miles, and again around 80,000 I believe.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Those CD4E transmissions would last 60k miles on a 626 if you were lucky.

    Some people replaced them twice.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited October 2013
    I am now celebrating recalls of Honda and Toyota. They DEFINITELY have had positive diagnoses of "GM Disease". Of course, that's "Old" GM Disease. GM has lost it's Recall Crown! (The Bigger They Are....)

    "Toyota’s Series of Recalls of Late"

    "In Jul 2013, Toyota announced that it would recall 185,000 units of some subcompact car models globally due to a problem with their electric power steering system. The glitch was making the steering heavier. The recalled vehicles include Yaris (know as Vitz in Japan) and Verso-S (aka Lactis in Japan) subcompact models. The recalled Yaris vehicles were manufactured between Nov 2010 to Mar 2012 while Vero-S vehicles were made between Aug 2010 and Aug 2011.

    In Aug 2013, Toyota recalled around 342,000 Tacoma midsize pickup trucks to fix faulty front seat belts. The recall involved car models from 2004-2011.

    In early Sep 2013, one year after Toyota recalled 780K vehicles to fix a problem in the rear tie rod, the company recalled the vehicles again after reports that the problem remained, reported The New York Times. The company had recalled 18K 2010 Lexus HS 250h autos and 760K Toyota RAV4 SUV of model years 2006 to 2011 in Aug 2012, following several complaints.

    Again in Sep, the automaker recalled 369,000 vehicles worldwide, including about 235,000 in the U.S., roughly 74,000 in Japan and 37,500 in Europe. This included 200,000 Highlander Hybrid models manufactured from 2006 to 2010 and Lexus RX 400h vehicles developed during 2006 to 2008 to fix a hybrid-system problem. Toyota also recalled another 169,000 vehicles including Lexus IS 350, IS 350C and GS 350 made between 2006 and 2011. Toyota recalled these vehicles to repair an engine bolt defect."

    "Other than Toyota, many other players in the automobile market are witnessing a series of recalls. In Aug 2013, Dongfeng Honda Automobile Co., the Chinese arm of Honda Motor Co., Ltd. (HMC), announced that it is recalling all Siwei CR-V vehicles manufactured from Mar 2, 2010, to Aug 30, 2012 to fix a defective front shock absorber piston rod. Honda recalled almost 408,000 SUVs.

    Ford Motor Co. (F) and General Motors Company (GM) also announced multiple vehicle recalls to fix various issues."

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-shares-drop-vehicle-recall-154003739.html
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    You seem to think CR hates everything domestic, I merely pointed out that 4 GM vehicles (3 trucks, 1 car) were sitting at the top of their classes in the current Buying Guide.

    To add here, most rational people know that CR doesn't have an agenda (other than perhaps efficiency over driving dynamics). Of course their process isn't perfect, but MOST of their findings are generally correct, which means MOST of the vehicles they rate highly are good, and MOST of the vehicles they say aren't that reliable are in fact that way.

    Those who complain are just using their brand biases to combat the facts on which models and makes are better versus others. And most of the people know that inside, whether they want to admit it publicly or not.

    Heck, I had a VW Jetta that went 143K miles with almost no problems, but I don't have a problem admitting that VW hasn't been that reliable, regardless of my own experiences.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited October 2013
    "Heck, I had a VW Jetta that went 143K miles with almost no problems, but I don't have a problem admitting that VW hasn't been that reliable, regardless of my own experiences."

    If only some would be as balanced as you....;)

    Oh, wait! You can't be balanced if you stick with one brand despite the worst drop in market share in U.S. history!
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited October 2013
    Could it be that GM pricing can ruin another launch?

    "Critical acclaim for the redesigned 2014 Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra suggests that GM nailed the first part of that strategy. But as the new trucks hit the heart of their launch cycle, the pricing part appears to be running up against cold market realities.

    Many Chevy and GMC dealers say sales of the 2014 pickups have been disappointing since the June launch, stymied by stiff price competition from heavily discounted Fords and Rams.

    Silverados are "selling very poorly" at Dimmitt Chevrolet in Clearwater, Fla., General Manager Sam Pilato says. The dealership, which typically sells 10 to 25 of the full-sized pickups a month, didn't notch its first Silverado sale this month until Oct. 16."

    http://www.autonews.com/article/20131021/RETAIL07/310219846/price-gap-riles-gm-d- - ealers

    Embarrassing!

    "It looked like we're finally going to get into the game," says Rox Covert, dealer principal at two Chevrolet dealerships and two Buick-GMC stores in the Austin, Texas, area. The stores, which have a 120-day supply, compared with the typical 90 days, sell more than 3,000 Silverados and Sierras annually.

    "Then they raise the prices," Covert says. "It's like it kicks you in the head."
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Hmmm - dealers complain that this year's model isn't selling well against the last year's competition that have thousands of incentives on them.

    The problem isn't the pricing - the problem is that they should have launched in September.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited October 2013
    "Heck, I had a VW Jetta that went 143K miles with almost no problems, but I don't have a problem admitting that VW hasn't been that reliable, regardless of my own experiences."

    If only some would be as balanced as you....

    Oh, wait! You can't be balanced if you stick with one brand despite the worst drop in market share in U.S. history!"

    Do you mean that if you wanted another VW, you'd let a drop in market share keep you from one when you had good experiences? Rather shallow and "me too". I disdain "me too" thinking, personally.

    P.S. Read my posting about the 2010 Equinox from yesterday.

    P.P.S. I reiterate: Gee, per CR, a 2010 Camaro has the same overall reliability as the same-year Kia Optima. We know that has to be gospel.

    P.P.P.S. Another factual error of recent times: "Look at the huge list of TSB's for the car." Half were from before the car was introduced. LOL
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    If only some would be as balanced as you....

    Well, that's balance to me. To others, balance is....something different!
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Do you mean that if you wanted another VW, you'd let a drop in market share keep you from one when you had good experiences? Rather shallow and "me too". I disdain "me too" thinking, personally.

    Not sure whether this was addressed to Circle or myself... I think you're conflating two different posts...
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited October 2013
    Aimed at circle, who is always enlightened. I'm aware he added to your post.

    Only here, is a 803K recall post considered "happy for the recall", but only I make a comment about another poster's response of an earlier recall for far-fewer vehicles. Only here are there crickets chirping about the NACOTY selections, mostly from GM. Boy, there's some balance for ya.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Do you mean that if you wanted another VW, you'd let a drop in market share keep you from one when you had good experiences? Rather shallow and "me too". I disdain "me too" thinking, personally.

    I just think balance in product usage comes from exploring different brands...not just from one brand that failed miserably in the marketplace....but that's just me!
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited October 2013
    You let the marketplace decide for you. I don't worry about what most writers who aren't as old as I've been driving, tell me what I should buy. I buy what's best for me and image is something I could care less about.

    Over the years, when I've had rentals of much-ballyhooed-cars, I almost always come away with 'what's the big deal about that?'.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    "You let the marketplace decide for you."

    Au contraire, mon ami! I decide the best product for my needs. All 3 of my current fleet are better than the domestics that fit the formula.

    The marketplace is a reflection on good manufactures and not so good manufacturers. The bad ones are the ones that loose market share. When I needed my new vehicles, the domestics were producing not so good products.

    The domestics are improving but so is the competition.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...for my Mercury Grand Marquis from Ford. Said something about rust affecting some steering component leaving the car unsteerable.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    lol! So true!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited October 2013
    GM added Direct Injection to every engine in the lineup.

    The pickup segment is very conservative, so it may take a while for those buyers to recognize that benefit. Look at what that did for Hyundai and Kia. They went from "good....for the price" to just plain "good".

    CR put the Silverado at the top of the pickup class, Dodge a little behind, and Ford's now aged F150 in 3rd place, with the import brands well behind.

    I'd say GM did a good job with the update, even though I'm not a fan of them cosmetically speaking.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited October 2013
    "GM added Direct Injection to every engine in the lineup.

    The pickup segment is very conservative, so it may take a while for those buyers to recognize that benefit."

    What's the benefit? The DI 5.3 has 40 less HP and 22 less ft-lbs of torque vs a Hemi and only offers an additional 1 mpg. Also consider the new Silverado weighs a few hundred pounds less and uses a tall 3.08 rear axle ratio for FE ratings.

    Same with the Ecoboost. It will walk all over a 5.3 Silverado while giving up only 1 MPG. The F150 is heavier too and doesn't offer an axle ratio taller than 3.31 on a 4x4.

    So I really don't see that DI is a huge advantage on a normally aspirated engine.
    Overall I think the GM trucks are nice. They definitely are as good and likely better than the competition in some areas. I just couldn't get past the boring styling inside and out.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    In CR tests it pulled a trailer to 60mph quicker than the Hemi did and still managed 1mpg better overall.

    More performance under load, better efficiency sounds like a win to me.

    I bet it pollutes less, too, given the fine atomization of the fuel.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited October 2013
    Pickuptrucks.com saw different results. The ecoboost f150 and ram were neck and neck with a sizable advantage in non/towing acceleration (1.5 secons quicker 0-60 towing 8,500lbs. Nontowing mileage was similar with the Ram slightly ahead of the Silverado, but the silverado got better mileage while towing. The Ram tested had the 3.55 axle and the Silverado had the 3.42.

    The CR review used a Silverado with 3.42 axle and the Ram had the standard 3.21. Yet still CR found the Hemi to feel more powerful and the 0-60 non towing was better in the Ram and basically a draw towing 5k lbs.

    As for gas mileage, 1 mpg isn't a big enough deal to me to choose one vehicle over another.

    "Our 5.3 delivers ample power, but it lacks the thrust of the 5.7-liter V8s in the Ram 1500 and Toyota Tundra. The transmission upshifts smoothly and quickly, but it’s reluctant to downshift, making the truck feel underpowered. It also takes a prod on the throttle to get the truck going."

    Reluctance to downshift drives me nuts and is one thing I do really like about the 8 speed in the Ram. It is quick to downshift and is very smooth overall.

    All this said, there really isn't anything wrong with the Silverado. I didn't buy one mainly because of the styling inside and out. I also liked the F150 alot, but I liked the interior the best in the Ram, plus the Hemi simply sounds way better than the Ecoboost v6. The Ecoboost is definitely stronger, but the Ram is plenty fast and I certainly didn't buy a truck to go racing;) Though some don't feel that way.

    When I pull you to younger guys in a F150 or Silverado, seems they always want to race. It's like I'm driving a Challenger or something and they think they're in Mustangs and Camaros. Crazy!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I may have asked this before, but is the 3.21:1 axle standard on the Ram these days? Mine was supposedly standard with the 3.55:1, but the window sticker listed the 3.21:1 as a no cost option.

    The EPA estimate was still listed at 14/20, regardless. I would think the taller axle might make some degree of difference, though? Maybe slightly better on the highway cycle, but slightly worse in the city, because it would rely more on the lower gears? But with the way they round off, maybe the laboratory numbers ARE different, but they would both round off to 14/20?
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    3.21 is the standard axle now with the 8 speed. I believe for FE testing they use the tallest axle and do not retest for other ratios. So the EPA ratings don't change based on axle ratios.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited October 2013
    ...since I'm quite certain if it were a GM, Ford or Mopar, it would've been posted here already:

    http://autos.aol.com/article/consumer-reports-lexus-is-250-infiniti-qx50/?icid=m- - - aing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl14%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D395106

    Note that not "recommended" is not the same as their "Not Recommended". I had to point this out here last year in their test of midsize sedans. ;)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    CR must of really not liked those two cars to score them lower than a Lincoln MKZ.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    You can tell he rushed that to press..I guess proofreading wasn't on Michael's list of priorities.

    CR, and their reporting, reminds me of life's pendulum.

    Plus, it's evident that no successful business can escape the temptation of media pawns.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    They just weren't the flavours of the month..
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    It’s a good day for Toyota, as the Japanese automaker’s brands swept the competition in the 2013 Motorist Choice Awards from AutoPacific and IntelliChoice, winning five categories out of 13.

    2013 Lexus CT 200h right side 300x199 imageNow into its eighth year, the Motorist Choice Awards recognize vehicles with high consumer satisfaction ratings and lower-than-average ownerships costs. Awards are split across 13 vehicle categories and are divided between “Popular” and “Premium” options. AutoPacific and IntelliChoice determine the winners after surveying more than 50,000 new car buyers on satisfaction with their 2013-model-year purchase, while also surveying and monitoring various cost of ownership metrics.

    The segments are also based on lifestyle categories instead of vehicle segments, five of which were won by Toyota and Lexus
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    "Lifestyle categories"...;)

    Sure that's not from "Town and Country"?
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Regarding proofreading...I'm unable to locate a single typo in that article. He uses the proper "its" and "it's", unlike so many bloggers.

    What errors did you find?
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    "The sedan missed out on the vaunted "Recommended" label mainly because it is still to early for Consumer Reports to have reliability information."
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    As was pointed out in the comments to this article, the Toyota dominates is extremely misleading. Toyota took five categories, and so did Nissan, not exactly dominating the competition is it? Also who knows what the criteria are? If the vehicles were actually desired don't you think that some of the "winners" would sell a lot better than they do ( and would not be being discontinued like the FJ?) I know you didn't write the article or do the survey so not trying to shoot the messenger here, just pointing out that this award doesn't seem to mean anything in terms of how the cars sell and that the article itself is not quite accurate in its conclusion. Now foreign makes did do better than the domestics in this survey, but again what was asked and to whom?
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Though apparently the is250 Awd at least scored poorly enough that even if the reliability is up to Lexus standards it still would not be recommended much like used to happen with some domestic cars. The Q50 scored better and from what I read may be able to be recommended if it is reliable.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    That's dumb of him...but that's it to have warranted your post about his bad proofreading?
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    That's dumb of him...but that's it to have warranted your post about his bad proofreading?

    If his job is a paid position, then yes! Who is he...family??
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    edited October 2013
    >If his job is a paid position, then yes! Who is he...family??

    I have learned to be careful criticizing typos or grammatical errors. I find that I make some in posts and someone will point them out later.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    And here I thought that CR was always pro-Asian nameplates...

    Just more proof that this is not the case.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I have learned to be careful criticizing typos or grammatical errors. I find that I make some in posts and someone will point them out later.

    Almost everybody on this board is way more literate than the average person in this country.... even the people with whom I don't agree.....
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    After 20 years of fawning, it's utterly amazing to me.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2013
    I think the fading daylight is making some of us grouchy (we've had snow here already and that really is irritating. ;))

    There's a law that says that whenever you point out a grammatical error, your post will have one as well.

    Okay, so here's the State of the US Auto Market in black and white. (Detroit News)
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >“Car manufacturers are seeking ways to create variations of white, silver, black and gray that are specific to their brands and that complement different vehicle types.”

    Quote from the article. Now that's a job description I would have loved to work toward. They could never prove I had been ineffective at achieving my goal.
    :)

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    "The sedan missed out on the vaunted "Recommended" label mainly because it is still to early for Consumer Reports to have reliability information."

    I know that. Last year, while the '13 Malibu tested fairly well, a poster here posted "'13 Malibu Not Recommended" ! (exclamation point mine).

    It was the same scenario that you were pointing out, however.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Mustangs are red or black or most anything but white. You'll note that the least favored color in the Detroit News link is green, and that was the choice for the new Corvette in the Edmunds fleet.

    There goes the resale value, lol.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited October 2013
    (directed to no one in particular)

    it would be bad form for anyone to criticize CR as bias or corrupt when it praises a foreign car, and then later on laud it for praising a domestic one, don't you think?
This discussion has been closed.