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The Current State of the US Auto Market
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Comments
In case you've been living on Mars since 2007, GM went bankrupt, was bailed out against tax payers' wishes, and is still struggling and the tax payer is virtually guaranteed to lose 11 digits of money!
that's well over $10,000,000,000 (nearly double by most estimates) in losses thanks to the insane idea of bailing out GM.
I've read potentially $50 Billion after the fuzzy math is sorted out - but that's the main reason I won't buy anything GM from any country - of course, that's not a big shift in my position anyway given the majority of their product offered anyway.
Bailing them out would have been sort of ok by me, had it been done the proper way - with a pre-packaged bankruptcy FIRST, blowing out the bad labor contracts, crappy product, overdone dealer network, etc., THEN LOANING them the capital to move on, more like Chrysler was done in the 70's, - that money was all paid back, BTW.
Most professors agree - GM will still not make it, and will need bailing out again, or will ultimately fail without government subsidy forever - like the railroads. It wasn't cut enough, the culture hasn't changed, and the mission is still wrong.
Until the mission becomes making cars people want, and want to keep, and building them to last a minimum of 10 years or 150,000 miles before they break - instead of putting as much metal out there, if it means rental fleets, so be it, as cheaply as they can - they will not make it in this world. They still don't get it.
When you throw in all of the white collar corporate welfare (which costs many times more than blue collar welfare), the tax subsidies, tax exemptions, and other government intervention that benefited GM, I'm sure the costs to taxpayers in losses exceeds $50 billion.
I agree, making the company undergo some pain, letting them feel some pain, would make a bailout far more palatable. I'd still be against it though, on the grounds that Chrysler has had 30 years post-bailout to figure out how to make a car last 10 years or 150,000 miles, and they have failed to do so.
Our good friends have a new top model Durango. They absolutely love it, and this is after owning a 3 year old Acura MDX, before that a 5 year old Mercedes GL450 suv, and before that a BMW X5.
We rode in it a few times and I drove it once, and it's a a very nicely styled and finished SUV. Lots of power too from the Hemi V8. Once a bunch of us guys took it for a night out and the car accelerated with no lag or hesitation with 7 guys weighing about 200lbs each.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
A Buick with an identity crisis.
My roommate's dad had one, and it was very problematic, which really backfired for Chrysler because he's a fleet buyer and started getting Toyota Tundras for his business.
He's retiring, and his son's taking over. They're looking at Ford EcoBoost pickups to try to lower TCO.
But I'll echo the sentiment above, I had a Mustang, then a Chevy, then an Escort, before I started buying imports. I always had a reason why I changed brands, but not recently.
Could simply be because modern cars are more reliable, meaning all of them are. I just haven't seen a reason to change brands, except when you're shopping in a segment where that manufacturer doesn't compete (ex: very few brands still make minivans).
He's dumping the '04 JGC today for the Sorrento. Lifters clack away when it's cold so he'll warm it up before delivery!
I'm not used to that!
Hello, GM Board? Are you listening? Probably not but soldier on, anyway "Old Chaps"!
To be fair the DI engine in the new Sorrento has a characteristic clatter as well.
DI is great but they don't make the best sounds, especially if you pop the hood open.
Young Car Buyers Shift Preferences from Japanese to U.S. and Korean Brands
Focus > old Focus
Dart > Caliber
And all of them are more appealing to young buyers.
Well obviously you are a complete idiot for buying a truck that will break down once a week, cost $8000 a year in repairs and lose 90% of its value in six months.
P.S. I really like those Ram trucks and would take one over a Toyota that needs a new frame every 10 years.
Yeah whatever.
I have a friend that has put 20k trouble free miles on his 2012 Ram Crewcab Sport. It's a very nice truck. I have another friend that has an 08 Tundra CrewCab Limited with 70k miles and no issues. I've driven it several times and I like it. Particularly the powertrain, just gobs of power. The ride is bit jittery and the steering is to light IMO, but overall it seems like a solid truck. Actually I know several guys who've bought new trucks over the past year or so, Fords and GMs too. So far they're all pretty happy.
The Tundra wouldn't be my first pick by any means, but it would be the truck I'd put money on to go 10 years with the least amount of repairs compared to the domestics.
The guy I mentioned with the Ram sport traded in an '04 Titan with 160k miles. He said he never had trouble with it and really like it. He test drove every 1/2 ton and for him it came down to the F150 vs the Ram. He chose the Ram due to getting a better deal (Ram had some healthy rebates) and he was unsure of the Ecoboost even though he really liked it on the test drive.
Not that the new ones aren't.
Sorry but I feel compelled to refute your post. FACT: If the US sold all 300M
shares of GM stock today it would amount to about $10B leaving about $10B still owed. That would mean they would have paid back about 80% of the bailout.
Incidentally that $10B is about what our government borrows in 2-1/2 days, and what it spends in 1 day.
shares of GM stock today it would amount to about $10B leaving about $10B still owed. That would mean they would have paid back about 80% of the bailout.
You're forgetting the years of income tax breaks the Feds are giving GM.
Do you remember the Dodge Neon? Complete utter trash.
I feel violated that they were legally allowed to sell those :lemon: here in the USA.
Oddly enough, my uncle, who went with me when I bought the Ram (we used his '97 Silverado as a trade in), said that if the Dodge dealer pissed me off, let's go look at the Toyotas!
The construction company he used to work for used to buy Toyotas for their light-duty trucks...stuff like the old T-100 and first-gen Tundra. They tended to have good luck with them. When that company got bought out, around 2007, they sold off a lot of their inventory fairly cheap, and he considered buying one of their Tundras, but didn't have the money at the time.
I do prefer the Ram over the Tundra, but I don't really see anything wrong with the Tundra. But, whoever thought the day would come that a Dodge would have a less plasticky looking interior than its Toyota competition! :P
Btw, care to explain your theory for these trucks?
link title
Hmm, checked the carfax on a bunch of these and didn't anything regarding frame replacement and these are 10 years old... :confuse:
925 more = misprint?
When the current Tundra was introduced 6 or so years ago it was an impressive truck. But since then Ford and Ram have gone through several updates. I really like the Ram.
I'm going to buy something in the next year or so. I'll look at the new Suburban and updated Expedition again. I really like the Durango, but it's a bit small for us. As for pickups it's a toss up. I'll checkout the new Silverado too.
Last night on TV our local Ford dealer had a commercial for up to $9k off of f150 SuperCrews. That almost makes me want to go buy one now;)
shares of GM stock today it would amount to about $10B leaving about $10B still owed. That would mean they would have paid back about 80% of the bailout.
Incidentally that $10B is about what our government borrows in 2-1/2 days, and what it spends in 1 day.
It never ceases to amaze me why apologists always like to quote some totally unrelated number to justify their aim.
"We could feed X number of people for a year for what we spend on FAA Air Traffic Control daily".
Totally unrelated numbers, and the conclusion is just as meaningless.
He went to the Toyota dealership and came home with a Tundra, fully loaded. AFAIK, he's had zero problems with his Tundra, and really likes it.
Just one example, but it shows how a poor dealer experience can run off sales.
FWIW Dana paid Toyota $25 million in a settlement since they supplied those frames.
The interior on the Tundra does feel cheap and plasticky, though, especially for the price levels. The updated one looks better, but we'll see.
shares of GM stock today it would amount to about $10B leaving about $10B still owed. That would mean they would have paid back about 80% of the bailout.
Incidentally that $10B is about what our government borrows in 2-1/2 days, and what it spends in 1 day.
It never ceases to amaze me why apologists always like to quote some totally unrelated number to justify their aim.
"We could feed X number of people for a year for what we spend on FAA Air Traffic Control daily".
Totally unrelated numbers, and the conclusion is just as meaningless.
I agree 100%.
FWIW Dana paid Toyota $25 million in a settlement since they supplied those frames.
Also, wasn't that related to the Tacoma?
Anyway, I have a good friend who's owned 3 Tacomas consecutively and hasn't had an issue with any of them.
http://www.aboutautomobile.com/Complaint/1999/Chevrolet/Silverado+1500/Frame
Huh? Only Ford doesn't make minivans.....
Uplander (Upchucker to me) GM
Caravan - Town & Country (Fiat)
Quest (Nissan-Renault)
Sienna (Toyota)
Odyssey (Honda)
Sedona (Kia/Hyundai)
CX-5 (Mazda)
R-350 (Benz)
AND, Malibu sales are heavily weighted to fleet/rental sales.
GM won't survive without more Gov't help. Only the Buick in China will give them some longevity, but they'll continue to bleed in the US.
My '85 in contrast, looks pretty bad because the rocker panels and lower doors are starting to rust pretty bad, as well as around the rear wheel openings. But, underneath where it counts, it still seems pretty solid.
Sedona is also out of production. I'd like to see the KV7 concept reach production, though.
CX5? Oh, you probably meant the Mazda5. Yeah, that's a vanlet I guess, but very small, and only seats 4+2.
R350 doesn't have sliding doors
So really just 4 options. I consider Grand Caravan/Town & Country/Routan just one set of clones.
Having said that, it was easy to find plenty of trucks with 250k miles plus, without any effort actually, so they're still quite durable.
Since 1974, I've owned Ford, GM, Dodge, Toyota and Mitsubishi trucks.
Living in the South probably has influence, but I've never experience frame rust on any of the trucks I've owned.
In fact, looking back over all those vehicles, not a single one ever left me stranded, and most of them never had any significant drivability issues, although some of them did experience other problems, none of them being severe.
Maybe I have just been extremely lucky...
My '85 Silverado was bought new, by my Granddad, that summer. It got used quite a bit, until he got sick in late 1989, and then passed away in 1990. After that, it tended to sit around a lot. My uncle would drive it every once in awhile, and so would my grandmother. I was living with her at the time, and I'd take it to college about once a week. But, since it didn't get used all that often, we tended to park it out of the way, off the driveway and on the grass.
Grandmom gave it to my Mom and stepdad around 1994 or 1995. They didn't use it much, but would put it into service towing their boat, hauling hay, stuff to the dump, etc. And again, since they didn't use it all that much, they'd often park it out of the way...and on the grass.
Mom sold it to me in late 2002, and at that point it only had about 109,000 miles on it. And, by then, it was starting to rust. I lived in a condo back then, and would usually park it out on the street. At least it was on pavement, but it was against a curb. Sometimes it would be back at my grandmother's house though, and again, on the grass. When I moved into the house, it didn't have much of a driveway, so again, the truck was often on the grass, until I had my garage built in 2005, and a large gravel driveway put in in early 2006. Nowadays, the truck is at least on the gravel, but the years have taken their toll. It's up to around 139,500 miles, and the drivetrain is running strong, so I'm guessing it'll be rust that sends it to its grave.
As for my uncle's '97 Silverado, it was his main source of transportation until 2002, when he bought an early 2003 Corolla. I forget how many miles it had on it when it got demoted to "second vehicle" status, but I do remember the second transmission rebuild was around 108,000 miles.
Sadly, if they had simply parked those cars on top of a $10 6-mil layer of polyethylene, placed out on top of he dirt floor before the cars were parked long term, the cars would have been in much better shape.
:P :P
Uplander (Upchucker to me) GM
As ateixera pointed out, it's been gone for five model years. Stop by a Chevy dealer often?
Perhaps the one's that didn't go to fleets took that long to sell off, and there were some sitting at dealers?
By golly, I think you've got it!
I know, it always works for me when I get pulled for speeding...
"Why, yes, officer. I was doing 60 in a 25 mph zone, but there are drivers on the Interstate running 90-100mph, so you should excuse me and go after them!".
Works every time...NOT!!!
I think it's fairly obvious that numbers come into play here. GM (and Ford and Chrysler) had sold many, many, many more trucks than Toyota, yet Toyota had the issue enough that it became a large issue for them...and not the others.
Agreed. Sort of like all the talk of Honda trannys and Toyota sludge - issues that were big for those brands, but long in the past and noteworthy mainly because of those brands' high reliability. When GM or C have tranny failures, it's not even news...
Somebody just posted about a second tranny rebuild on a truck (I believe it was a Chrysler) in ~110K miles. I've driven six different cars I've owned to over 100K, two of them over 200K miles. Honda, Acura, VW, Mazda, Toyota, Mercury. I've NEVER had a transmission repair in any of them. None of them were US-nameplate trannys, even the Mercury Villager (Nissan engine/tranny).
Every model has its weakest point, and folks prone to make a point at any cost can always find ammo on the Internet to prove their point.
Like I stated in an earlier posting, since the mid 70's, I've owned every domestic brand pickup truck, along with a few imports. I've never had any issue with frame rust.
Tacomas had a higher incidence of rust, due to inferior materials provided by a sub-supplier (which accepted responsibility for the inferior product).
The problem of inferior quality subsystem components can happen to any manufacturer.
Obviously, I NEVER stop by a Chevy dealer...... Ever.