The Current State of the US Auto Market

andre1969 · April 2013

The reason some came with Chevy 350s is because they simply ran out of Oldsmobile engines.

You can partly blame California emissions standards, as well as the Cutlass Supreme for that.

In 1977, the Pontiac 301, 350, and 400 would not pass California emissions standards. The Buick 350 would not pass CA standards for 1978 definitely, but it may not have passed in 1977 either. So in Catalinas and Bonnevilles, they simply dropped the 301 and only offered Olds 350's and 403's. That might be one reason the Pontiacs didn't sell too well, not offering a smaller-sized V-8 in California for more fuel-conscious buyers.

Buick's LeSabre came standard with a Pontiac 301 for a few years, with a Buick 350 being optional and an Olds 403 being top dog. But in Buick's case, at least they substituted a Chevy 305 in California for the 301, which gave the LeSabre more choices. And, the Olds 350 for the Buick 350.

So, putting Olds 350s these other cars for California and high-altitude areas put a strain on the supply. As for the Cutlass Supreme, well, GM had anticipated that the downsized big cars would cut into sales of the old intermediates, and in most cases they did. Except for Oldsmobile. The '77 Cutlass actually managed to outsell the '76, and became the second most popular car in America that year. #1 was the Caprice/Impala, which were counted together for sales purposes by this time.

For some reason, Olds gave the Cutlass first priority when it came to the 350. So, AFAIK, no '77 Cutlass was sold with a Chevy 350. The Cutlass also didn't offer anything in the ~300 CID range, with the smaller engines being the tiny 231 V-6 and 260 V-8. So the vast majority of these were 350's.

And again, in California, the 1977 LeMans and Grand Prix gave up their Pontiac engines for Oldsmobile engines.

So, all this demand for Olds 350's left them in short supply, so they began putting Chevy 350's in the Delta 88. Some may have gone in the Ninety-Eight as well, but I'm not positive.

busiris · April 2013

I'm barely old enough to remember that fiasco. Apparently some owners weren't impressed by having a Chevy v8 in their Oldsmobile.

I seem to remember a large class action lawsuit against GM for engine substitution between brands without notifying buyers of the substitution.

isellhondas · April 2013

Well, a powerglide equipped '65 Impala with the "legendary" 409 only produced 340 H.P. I think a 300 HP 327 would probably at least match it's quarter mile times.

When equipped with a four speed, a person could order a 340 H.P. version, a 400 H.P. one or step up and get a 425 H.P. one that came with 2 4BBL carbs.

I once owned a 400 H.P. one and it had GOBS of torque. I think it would have whipped the 1967 GTO I once owned.

409's have been called "truck engines" and some say weren't it not for the Beach Boys they wouldn't have been so "legendary".

Say what you will, I put terror and thrill in the hearts of many when I took them for a run in my mighty 409.

Gawd, I wish I still had it!

uplanderguy · April 2013

My memory is that owners got $200, which doesn't sound like much but 35 years ago wasn't awful.

andre1969 · April 2013

My father had a '63 and a '65 SS. The '63 had a 425 hp 409. He sold it when he got drafted. When he got out of the army, he bought the '65, which had a 425 hp 396. Sometime in the early 70's, it threw a rod on a lonely country road, and he simply abandoned it! :surprise:

And today, he drives a 2003 Regal. And it's not even supercharged. Getting old sucks! Although Dad did once say that, if he had bought something like that Regal back in his younger days, it probably would have kept him out of a LOT of trouble with the law!

My uncle once had a '67 GTO. 400 with an automatic. I think it was gold. He paid $500 for it, and got in trouble with the law. He was speeding through some little podunk town in Appalachia, got the cops after him, but managed to evade them. Unfortunately, he didn't have the smarts to take a different route on the way back home, and they nabbed him on the return trip! I think Granddad made him get rid of it, because he was getting in too much trouble with it.

isellhondas · April 2013

Oh, I know ALL about traffic tickets! I got NINE in one year including one for racing a cop!

Funny now but not at the time and I'm not proud of that.

Somehow, my Ins.Co. never found out although I did get my license put on probation for a year. Never got in any kind of an accident though.

Your dad's '65 Impala was a rare bird with that 396. That was the last year for the 409. They didn't make very many 396's at all.

The 409's had a throaty rumble with glasspacks that few cars could match.

andre1969 · April 2013

Your dad's '65 Impala was a rare bird with that 396. That was the last year for the 409. They didn't make very many 396's at all.

Yeah, and to think that he simply abandoned it when it threw a rod. He says that back in those days it was "just an old car", but one of my former mechanics said that even in those days, it was already a hot item. I think it was around 1971 when he abandoned it.

The first car I can vaguely remember Dad having was a beat-up '62 Corvette. That gave way to a '64 GTO 2 door sedan that he bought when I was in nursery school, which was also pretty ratty.

Apparently, my Dad was pretty rough on cars. He used to drive my Mom's '66 Catalina convertible a lot when they started going together and then married. My grandparents used that Catalina as a tradein on a new '72 Impala 4-door hardtop, and gave my Mom their old '68 Impala 4-door hardtop. I don't remember the Catalina, but I do remember Granddad talking about how it was worn out from my Dad abusing it!

berri · April 2013

My memory is that owners got $200,

Knew someone back then with a Delta 88 Chevymobile. I thought he got something more like $500 (maybe it was a rebate rather than cash?) Back in those days we actually had both a 76 Cutlass with an Olds 4bbl 350 and a 75 Malibu with a Chevy 2bbl 350 in our garage. My driving impression was that the Olds was smooth and quiet on the highway, but it sucked around town or trying to quickly pass. It had terrible lag which several dealers were unable to resolve. The Chevy was a much better car in town to drive since it wasn't afflicted with hesitation. Some claim the Olds got better mileage, but they seemed pretty comparable in our experience with them. I'd have been happy to had a Chevymobile and gotten the cash frankly!

tlong · April 2013

It has nothing to do with honesty. It's grating. And along the lines of what I call 'princess-y'.

I guess prissiness is worse than lyinge. :confuse:

tlong · April 2013

I don't know tlong; if I'm using the same phone company or cable company as my neighbor, I doubt the rates vary by 100% or more as do two seats by each other on the same airline at the same time. Now, different phone companies or cable companies, or different services, perhaps.

You may think of those two seats on the airline as the "same product" but they're really not. The person flying cheap probably bought way in advance because they were a leisure traveler. The airlines fill a certain percentage of seats on a flight at discount prices. As the time gets nearer the flight, the prices start going up. The person flying the high priced seat next to you bought the same seat, but the product was different - they bought a seat on short notice for the convenience. They are almost certainly a business traveler, and their ability to pay a much higher price is what allows you to fly cheaply. If the plane filled all seats at the cheap fare it would lose money every single time.

I know that you could be on a phone from the same company and the business across the street would pay much more for the same service simply because it was a business. The service could be exactly the same. In the same way as the airline, the phone company is charging higher prices for businesses than for individual service.

My cable bill has reliably gone up every year, so the year-ago raise I called and threatened to cut the cord. With no arguments and with not even a pass to a "retention specialist", they dropped my bill over $30/month for the exact same service. So my neighbor who didn't call would have the same service for >$30 more.

Just pointing out that just like airlines, other businesses regularly will vary rates to charge what the traffic will bear. Another example is the person who comes into the restaurant just before 4pm and gets the "early special" and the guy who comes in at 4:05pm gets the same food plate at a higher price. More open "seats" at the restaurant early means lower $$.

Good consumers spend wisely and shop around and get good prices on all sorts of things, just like you did on your Cavalier. Consumers who are less educated or not willing to make extra effort pay full price and help subsidize those discounts.

uplanderguy · April 2013

You continue to amaze me. "Standard of the World" is a 100-year old slogan of Cadillac's. Nothing more.

Using the same, single word 25 times in a commercial is grating as hell, as well as painting the prospective owner as a real 'priss' for certain...mentioning his 'luxury' coffeemaker (really!) and 'luxury' home and everything else 'luxury' the guy owns. Talk about class warfare!

Have you seen the commercial I'm talking about?

Remember back to "Introduction to Marketing" class and you'll remember all about advertising slogans.

uplanderguy · April 2013

Just guessing...work for the airlines or an industry that has an airline tie-in?

I remain convinced that in buying nothing else can the price for the same service at the same time result in pricing 100% or more different.

lemko · April 2013

It refers to standardized parts. Way back in the day, no two cars were totally alike. Cadillac learned how to make standardized parts for automobiles from firearms manufacturers.

uplanderguy · April 2013

For the vast majority of my life, it's the slogan I remember Cadillac having as well...about as ubiquitous as "See the U.S.A....."

The Acura commercial, IMHO, paints a pic of a really self-absorbed guy.

andre1969 · April 2013

Back in those days we actually had both a 76 Cutlass with an Olds 4bbl 350 and a 75 Malibu with a Chevy 2bbl 350 in our garage. My driving impression was that the Olds was smooth and quiet on the highway, but it sucked around town or trying to quickly pass. It had terrible lag which several dealers were unable to resolve.

That's interesting...you'd think that the Olds would be better, having the 4-bbl carb?

One thing I know they changed, from '75-76 was the standard axle ratio. It wasn't a huge difference, but in '75 they used a 2.56:1 axle on your typical 350+ CID car, but for '76 it was a 2.41:1 I wouldn't think a small difference like that would change things much, though.

As for hp, I think the Chevy 350-2bbl only had 145 hp in 1975. Not sure what the Olds 350-4bbl had in 1976, probably around 170?

But, HP doesn't mean everything, and can be deceptive. My '76 LeMans coupe has, depending on the source, either 165 hp (Consumer Guide) or 175 hp (Motor's Repair Manual, 1976 edition). But it definitely feels slower off the line than my '79 New Yorkers, which have 360-2bbls and only 150 hp. The NYer and LeMans are probably close in weight, and gearing is similar as well (2.41:1 for the LeMans, 2.45:1 for the New Yorker).

I think one reason the NYer does pretty well taking off is that, even though it just has a 2-bbl, it has a huge throat, whereas the 4-bbl on the LeMans has fairly small primaries, and the secondaries don't open up until they're good and ready.

Oddly, the NYer gets better highway economy as well. It can break 18 mpg with little effort, and there's been a few times I've even hit 20-21. But, I think about the best I ever got out of the LeMans was 17.5. Even 16 is a major accomplishment. The LeMans is better at highway passing though. Probably because someone put a shift kit in it though, rather than anything GM did to it when it was first built.

lemko · April 2013

I still use some slogans myself. When somebody unjustly disses a car I drive, I use Packard's slogan "Ask the Man Who Owns One."

A coworker who was shopping for a new car and knew I'm a big-time car buff asked my opinion on Buick, I replied, "When Better Automobiles are Built, Buick Will Build Them."

My wife asked which car we were taking on a trip upstate, her car or mine, I responded, "Mercury: the Man's Car!"

uplanderguy · April 2013

I always liked Buick's "Wouldn't You Really Rather Have a Buick?". To me, it cuts right to the chase!

The dealer we bought from in my hometown sold Chevy and Cadillac for many years. I remember once seeing an ad in the paper that said their name and had "Chevrolet" and "Cadillac" to the right, with a large space between the two brands, vertically. In the middle it said, "There's really nothing in-between!". I thought that was rather brash!

Funny thing is, probably fifteen years later, they did add Olds and Buick when that dealership's owner retired.

busiris · April 2013

Just pointing out that just like airlines, other businesses regularly will vary rates to charge what the traffic will bear. Another example is the person who comes into the restaurant just before 4pm and gets the "early special" and the guy who comes in at 4:05pm gets the same food plate at a higher price. More open "seats" at the restaurant early means lower $$.

You can add ocean cruise lines to your example, and it fits in vey nicely. Ships make most of their profit on the last 10% of the rooms sold, which is why the last minute travelers often see larger discounts than those booking months ahead. The first 90% goes to paying the cost of the cruise. So, in your analysis, I pretty much agree with you.

A business pays more for phone service because a business uses a phone far more in peak times than an individual, and they use phones to make money. Give a business the option of metered service .vs. flat rate, and most will still prefer flat rate, because they know this as well.

Cable companies can offer discounts from their customary "standard" rates, but who is going to buy cable when the company offers it at $49.95, only to find when you call to order you're told you have to pay a $10 monthly surcharge, just because there's a shortage of installers?

However, ...

I think the origin of the pricing "question" was started by dealers charging in excess of the suggested retail price, which by law, they are entitled to do.

Personally, if I went into a restaurant, looked at the menu and prepared to order the $20 steak, and the waiter told me "the steak is in higher than normal demand tonight, so its going to cost you $25", I suspect I would simply walk out.

Even if I really had my taste buds set for a steak, and decided to pay the "surcharge" that one time in order to get it, that would be the last meal that particular restaurant served me.

Same goes with cars, TV sets, you name it.

circlew · April 2013

All the GM slogans backfired when they went bankrupt. Goes to show how much weight they REALLY carry.

andre1969 · April 2013

One slogan that I thought backfired, or ad campaign at least, was when they tried to use Meatloaf's "Paradise by the Dashboard Lights". They kept playing the "let me sleep on it, baby-baby" over and over again, and the draw was that they'd let you take a new GM car home overnight and if you didn't like it, could bring it back. Of course, there were probably catches such as mileage limits, you break it you buy it, etc...

But, all I kept thinking was, what if you bought a car that was a turd, then you'd just be thinking about the end of that song..."Praying for the end of time, so I can end... my... time... with you!"

uplanderguy · April 2013

Has anyone here seen the Acura commercial I'm talking about? Some have opinions, but I've not heard if anyone's actually seen it. (On Edmunds? An opinion without seeing something?!!!!

)

busiris · April 2013

LOL!

Reminds me of Microsoft using the Rolling Stones "Start Me Up" song when it introduced Windows XP. At least, I think it was XP.

If you start me up
If you start me up I'll never stop
If you start me up
If you start me up I'll never stop
I've been running hot
You got me ticking gonna blow my top
If you start me up
If you start me up I'll never stop
You make a grown man cry

anythngbutgm · April 2013

Too funny Andre!

anythngbutgm · April 2013

I wouldn't say it's honesty, more like arrogance... Big surprise there :sick:

lol, "The Standard of the World" means squat outside of the RenCen. Never mentioned in any competitors commercials for as long as I can remember. It's usually the Big 3 European brands and lexus nipping at each other.

Maybe when Mercedes starts offering Landau roofs, gobs of Chrome and Bling, Wire wheels and curb feelers then they'll reference Cadillac as competition. Wouldn't be surprised if they have a picture of a Ganged out Escalade in the cafeterias just get a chuckle out of what the "Yanks" think qualifies as a Proper Flagship.

uplanderguy · April 2013

Maybe when Mercedes starts offering Landau roofs, gobs of Chrome and Bling, Wire wheels and curb feelers then they'll reference Cadillac as competition.

Do you live in Florida, and have you seen a Cadillac in the last four decades?

The reality of your comment is as ridiculous as my saying a new Camry looks like this:

http://www.classycars.org/toyota.1961.toyopet.html

What's arrogant is mentioning the owner's "luxury coffeemaker" (and I quote) in an ad for an Acura.

ateixeira · April 2013

Up - we chat up commercials in this thread, let me grab a link for you:

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ee92e94/7083#MSG7083

We were just laughing at the luxury this, luxury that, ad from Acura.

uplanderguy · April 2013

Appreciate that; I don't look at that thread and it's good to see someone besides me thinks it's rather asinine. Here, talking about an entire commercial only gets compared to a 100-year old Cadillac slogan.

hpmctorque · April 2013

That Packard tag line is clever, but it would never pass the political correctness filter these days.

tlong · April 2013

You continue to amaze me. "Standard of the World" is a 100-year old slogan of Cadillac's. Nothing more.

I appreciate that I'm amazing.

Saying "nothing more" is sort of a get out of jail free pass for Caddy. What if they said they were the best horseshoe maker in America? If it was 100 years old but wrong, wound't that make it a bit ridiculous?

That might have been a good slogan 100 years ago. After the last 30 years and a BK, it's kind of arrogantly laughable to me.

When customers KNOW there's not much behind a slogan, I'd say it's counter-productive. JMHO.

tlong · April 2013

Just guessing...work for the airlines or an industry that has an airline tie-in?

Not even close.

tlong · April 2013

It refers to standardized parts. Way back in the day, no two cars were totally alike. Cadillac learned how to make standardized parts for automobiles from firearms manufacturers.

I always thought Henry Ford was given credit for creating the assembly line, which required standardization of parts.

hpmctorque · April 2013

Here's my take on superlative tag lines versus reality:

"The Ultimate Driving Machine" is no more realistic for BMW today than "Standard of the World" is for Cadillac, because BMW has gone soft. While the BMW slogan may have been appropriate a few years ago, when they rewarded drivers with a sharp, precise, responsive handling experience, combined with a supple, well controlled ride, most BMW models have become porky cruisers in recent years. Nice cruisers, for sure, but no longer the "Ultimate Driving Machines."

One could argue that while Cadillac is going in the right direction, and quickly transforming itself from your grandfather's Cadillac to models that can challenge the best foreign luxury brands, BMW is no longer the "Ultimate." No? Well, let's take another look after Cadillac has it's 2014 CTS, and its 7-Series and S-Class counterparts on the road.

While Cadillac's chances of ever again becoming the "Standard Of The World" (that it arguably was from, say, 1949 through the mid or late 1960s) may not be great, I'd predict that BMW's chances of again truly becoming "The Ultimate Driving Maching" are even smaller. It's hard to be the clear "Standard" or "Ultimate" in a world where there are no bad luxury vehicles, and where most are very good.

To me, at this time Ferrari or Porsche have a stronger claim on Standard Of The World and The Ultimate Driving Machine than either Cadillac or BMW.

lemko · April 2013

Cadillac predates Ford by a year. Henry Ford was actually involved with Cadillac before he had his own company. Cadillac was a company independent of GM and predates GM by 6 years.

anythngbutgm · April 2013

...have you seen a Cadillac in the last four decades?

LOL, didn't realize they built this 4 decades ago?

uplanderguy · April 2013

Other than searching online, have you seen a single one of these on the road? I mean, a single one? I haven't, and I'd wager that most posters here have not, either.

andre1969 · April 2013

I thought I read somewhere that Oldsmobile was actually the first to use assembly line techniques to build cars? I think Ford just gets so much credit because they did it on a much wider scale, and with a much cheaper, more "everyman" type of car.

andre1969 · April 2013

Those cars are hideous, but to be fair, you can't blame GM for them. Those atrocities are aftermarket jobs. I thought I read somewhere that Cadillac actually forbade dealers from putting those aftermarket roofs on cars, but I'm sure there are loopholes to get around it.

You know why things like that exist? Simple. Because there are still some people who WANT them!

uplanderguy · April 2013

I've seen Benzes and other cars 'tricked out' like that. Like andre says, one can't generalize and blame the manufacturer and biggest cross-section of customers for that. That'd be as bad as me saying that all Lexus employees and customers have cameras with them at all times.

lemko · April 2013

If it makes any of you feel better, I actually saw a new Lexus ES decked out like that! The dealers and buyers are the ones to blame for this tacky added-on garbage, not the manufacturer.

fintail · April 2013

I've only ever seen one MB with a vinyl top stuck on, and it had a bad run-in with late 70s California. A few were probably concocted in Florida, too. But, even googling it comes up with little.

Caddy should revoke a dealer's franchise for that. However, that crap really sold once upon a time, so those short term profits probably outweighed the damage to brand equity.

uplanderguy · April 2013

The original comments remind me of something I came to, myself, almost thirty years ago--those who believe they are the most enlightened and open-minded, are often the most narrow-minded.

andre1969 · April 2013

It happens to the best of them. :sick: But in this case, take note of the license plate, and take it with a grain of salt.

fintail · April 2013

There's a Kia Amanti in my area decked out like that. It's horrible.

I've also seen something like this:

busiris · April 2013

Those cars are hideous, but to be fair, you can't blame GM for them. Those atrocities are aftermarket jobs. I thought I read somewhere that Cadillac actually forbade dealers from putting those aftermarket roofs on cars, but I'm sure there are loopholes to get around it.

As long as emissions systems, and any other safely/regulated systems aren't touched, its legal to modify a vehicle, whether at the owner or dealer level. Part of that "free speech" thing.

You know why things like that exist? Simple. Because there are still some people who WANT them!

You hit the nail on the head.

What looks worse, cars like those here in these pics, or pickup trucks jacked up so high one needs a step ladder to enter/exit? At least trucks like that don't need to be put on a rack for oil changes.

To compliment Uplander's adage, "Good amounts of money and good tastes are not always complimentary".

isellhondas · April 2013

There was a Cadillac Dealer in the L.A. area that had two bays in their shop dedicated to installing aftermarket garbage.

These guys would install ugly Vogue tires on gaudy rims. They would install thick padded vinal tops with "carriage bars". They would mount continental kits on the rear bumpers and put "trunk straps" on the trunks. They wold mount hideous Rolls Royce type grills on cars etc.

One of the installers told me that it wasn't uncommon for a Cadillac buyer to pay an additional 5000.00 at that ime for these horrific add ons.

ateixeira · April 2013

That photo looks chopped but I'm sure they exist at Leisure World.

Rounder cars look especially bad with vinyl roof conversions.

I've seen the kits called "simulated convertibles". :sick:

fintail · April 2013

Nope, it's real. Here's another (note the plates):

Vinyl top, cabriolet roof, roadster top, etc.

I've also seen a Fusion (original style), of all things, wearing the same horror.

fintail · April 2013

That's what it comes down to - money. Probably moved a few extra cars too, so the suits were appeased. But, money and sales at what cost.

ateixeira · April 2013

When will this die? Ugh...

andre1969 · April 2013

When will this die? Ugh...

I dunno. You'd think that as the older people who associate whitewalls and those aftermarket roofs with luxury die off, demand would drop off. But, that kind of stuff is still fashionable among the wanna be pimps and such. :sick:

The Current State of the US Auto Market

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