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Toyota Tundra Problems

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    bamatundrabamatundra Member Posts: 1,583
    You are not making a lot of sense here. The GM was not on the top of the list - with the F150. Open up those Chev blinders a little. Since the Chev is not on the top of the list, or the bottom, GM has dug a new hole. There isn't any shame in admitting this. It is simple logic.
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    hillhoundhillhound Member Posts: 537
    I give up. What are you talking about?

    "The GM was not on the top of the list - with the F150. "

    Where are you getting this F150 info from?? Are you seeing things? The only fullsize pickup I see on that particular list is...the Tundra.
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    bamatundrabamatundra Member Posts: 1,583
    You have not been shown the whole list. The F150 was on the top as the best. Some unfortunate Chev owners deleted that part of the list. Since the Lemonado is not on the top, or the bottom, that tells me that GM has dug a new hole.
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    quadrunner500quadrunner500 Member Posts: 2,721
    The original list had the 25 best, and the 25 worst vehicles according to complaints to NTHSA. The F150 was at the top of the list for fewest complaints.

    The 2002 Lemon List only shows the lemons, thus no F150.
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    kg11kg11 Member Posts: 530
    favorite troll.
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    bamatundrabamatundra Member Posts: 1,583
    It seems we are getting somewhere. The Chev pack has admitted that they were not at the top of the list. Now the healing can begin! Since the Lemonado was not at the top of the list, or the bottom - where was it?

    Heck - this is a very simple question that the Shakerado zealots refuse to answer!
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    ndahi12ndahi12 Member Posts: 235
    HOST, PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD. IT HAS NO VALUE TO TUNDRA OWNERS LIKE MYSELF. IT THE SAME BANTER OVER AND OVER AGAIN. IT IS A TOTAL WASTE OF BANDWIDTH. I BEG YOU CLOSE THIS THREAD.
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    bamatundrabamatundra Member Posts: 1,583
    I commiserate with you. It seems that a few unfortunate GM owners love to post to this site. They almost never post to Chev sites. What does this say? You be the judge.

    Sonja and Quad (both Lemon GM owners) have posted 40 times to this topic in the last 13 days.

    Moderator - can we please rename this topic "Quad and Sonja's playpen". That will keep Tundra owners looking for useful information away from this site. They will realize that it is not intended for adults. All will be well!
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    bamatundrabamatundra Member Posts: 1,583
    Hilly - the list that your wimperado cohorts edited originally was listed from best to worst. The F150 was listed best. There were 50 vehicles listed - the Shakerado did not even make the list.

    Hilly - your Lemonado was so bad that it didn't even make the list!!! And you sheepishly admit it! Wow! I'm glad that you finally have come clean. You shouldn't be so embarrassed by the Chev's no-show. Everyone already knows the knockerados are rightfully below the lemon list. Now the healing can begin.
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    h0udinih0udini Member Posts: 118
    couldn't care less if my truck is on attorneys Kimmel and Silverman's lemon list.

    Is this the best the GMC folks can come up with? Shameless lawyer advertisements?
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    kg11kg11 Member Posts: 530
    Nor on the BOTTOM with Tundra.That leaves the middle ,don't it?

    Houdini;"Is this the best the GMC folks can come up with?Shameless lawyer advertisements?"
    Is this the best the folks at Toyota can come up with?Tundra?
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    bamatundrabamatundra Member Posts: 1,583
    Well NO!!! If it was in the middle - it would be listed. It is not, because it is not worthy.

    If a vehicle is not on the list - it is below the list. Just where Chev knockerados belong.
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    h0udinih0udini Member Posts: 118
    probably change their lemon lists on a daily basis to attract new clients and extract lawyer fees in frivolous lawsuits.
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    hillhoundhillhound Member Posts: 537
    What Bama's trying to say is that since the Tundra appears on the lemon list it is a better buy than vehicles that do not appear on the top 25 Lemon List. As I've said before-his logic always requires a slight leap of faith.

    If GM pickups are not on the bottom (Lemon List with Bama's truck), or the middle, or the top 25 with F150s then where are they Bama???
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    kg11kg11 Member Posts: 530
    The 25 best and the 25 worst.Anything not on the list falls between ( the middle )
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    hillhoundhillhound Member Posts: 537
    The lemon list is compiled from NHTSA derived statistics and released by the federal government. It's fine if you're skeptical but your doubts won't change the facts. I'm glad my $30000 truck is not on the lemon list, that's for sure!!
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    bamatundrabamatundra Member Posts: 1,583
    You are being really dense on this one. Since the Shakerado did not appear in the first 50 listed from best to worst - it is BELOW THE LIST. Very simple. (for some)
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    h0udinih0udini Member Posts: 118
    Those words coming from the mouth of somebody who takes lawyers' words as gospel! No wonder you fell for that "Chevy - the longest lasting, most dependable trucks" garbage...
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    kg11kg11 Member Posts: 530
    One can work and one handles like a sports car( lol ).When I need a truck I don't drive the wifes Mustang.
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    bamatundrabamatundra Member Posts: 1,583
    You guys were just bragging that the F150 is number one! Where is the F150 on your list?

    The GM boys rearrange the data to suit their marketing dept. Answer a simple question - Where is the F150 on your list? If you answer number one - where was the Shakerado? Very simple question that Hilly cannot answer. Pathetic!!

    Where was the Shakerado on the lemon list? WAYYY down low. So low that Hilly cannot answer simple questions.
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    h0udinih0udini Member Posts: 118
    Year: 2002
    Make: TOYOTA TRUCK
    Model: TUNDRA

    Consumer Complaints

    2 Record(s) found


    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8002835 Make: TOYOTA TRUCK Model: TUNDRA Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 01/17/2002
    Component: BRAKES:HYDRAULIC:SHOE:DISC BRAKE SYSTEM
    Summary: WHILE DRIVING STATE SPEED LIMIT HEARD A KNOCKING ON FRONT END OF VEHICLE WHILE APPLYING BRAKES. *AK *TT

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8007816 Make: TOYOTA TRUCK Model: TUNDRA Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 04/01/2002
    Component: WHEELS
    Summary: CONSUMER STATES THAT THE STEEL WHEELS ON THE VEHICLE HAS STARTED TO RUST. CONTACTED DEALER AND THE DEALER IS NOT WILLING TO DO ANYTHING. NLM
  • Options
    h0udinih0udini Member Posts: 118
    Year: 2002
    Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK
    Model: SILVERADO

    Consumer Complaints

    29 Record(s) found

    Due to the large number of records return from the Consumer Complaints database, we did not display Summary description. To read this description for each specific compliance investigation, click on the Get Summary link.


    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 758087 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 10/16/2001
    Component: VISUAL SYSTEMS:MIRRORS:REARVIEW:INTERIOR

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 758357 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 02/17/2002
    Component: POWER TRAIN:TRANSMISSION:AUTOMATIC:INDICATOR:LEVER:GEAR

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 758551 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 01/14/2002
    Component: FUEL:THROTTLE LINKAGES AND CONTROL

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 758551 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 01/14/2002
    Component: POWER TRAIN:TRANSMISSION:AUTOMATIC

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 758622 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 01/05/2002
    Component: FUEL:THROTTLE LINKAGES AND CONTROL

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 759496 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 11/10/2001
    Component: ENGINE

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 759662 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure:
    Component: POWER TRAIN:TRANSMISSION:AUTOMATIC

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 761277 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 02/01/2002
    Component: POWER TRAIN:AXLE ASSEMBLY

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8000781 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 11/06/2001
    Component: INTERIOR SYSTEMS:ACTIVE RESTRAINTS:BELT RETRACTORS

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8000781 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 11/06/2001
    Component: INTERIOR SYSTEMS:ACTIVE SEAT AND SHOULDER BELTS AND BELT ANCHOR

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8000974 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: Yes
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 1
    Date of Failure: 12/10/2001
    Component: INTERIOR SYSTEMS:PASSENGER RESTRAINTS:AIR BAG:FRONTAL

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8002354 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 01/09/2002
    Component: ENGINE

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8002777 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 01/10/2002
    Component: COMMUNICATIONS:HORN ASSEMBLY:BUTTON:RING

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8003017 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure:
    Component: SUSPENSION:INDEPENDENT FRONT

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8003017 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 01/23/2002
    Component: BRAKES:HYDRAULIC:ANTI-SKID SYSTEM

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8003017 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 01/23/2002
    Component: ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:BATTERY

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8003017 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 01/23/2002
    Component: STEERING:LINKAGES:TIE ROD:END

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8003037 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: Yes
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure:
    Component: INTERIOR SYSTEMS:PASSENGER RESTRAINTS:AIR BAG:FRONTAL

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8003533 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 01/14/2002
    Component: FUEL:THROTTLE LINKAGES AND CONTROL

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8003535 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 01/14/2002
    Component: WHEELS

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8004247 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 01/01/2002
    Component: POWER TRAIN:AXLE ASSEMBLY

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8004500 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 01/01/2002
    Component: BRAKES:HYDRAULIC:ANTI-SKID SYSTEM

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8006810 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure: 03/28/2002
    Component: ENGINE

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8006987 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure:
    Component: STRUCTURE:BODY

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8008295 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure:
    Component: STEERING:COLUMN

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8008364 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK Model: SILVERADO Year: 2002

    Incident: No
    Fire: No
    Number of Injuries: 0
    Date of Failure:
    Component: ENGINE

    Get Summary

    Check to order research. Submit below. ODI ID: 8009061 Make: CHEVROLET TRUCK M
  • Options
    h0udinih0udini Member Posts: 118
    on the Silverado, it won't all fit into the one Edmunds post. Go here to read the whole page: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/complain/central2.cfm

    So, according to the NHTSA's complaints, the 2002 Tundra has 2, and the Silverado 29. Tell that to attorneys Kimmel and Silverman!
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    bamatundrabamatundra Member Posts: 1,583
    I don't know why GM owners post here. Maybe they are trying to bolster their weak trucks. Did they realize just a little too late that they bought the wrong truck? Just a guess.
  • Options
    h0udinih0udini Member Posts: 118
    this question I posted in the GM engine knock topic:


    According to several of the GMC folks over in the Tundra problems thread, the GMC knockerados aren't on attorneys Kimmel and Silverman's lemon list: http://www.lemonlaw.com/lemonlist.html


    Doesn't this mean there's nothing wrong with GMC's knockerados?

  • Options
    hillhoundhillhound Member Posts: 537
    h0udini May 13, 2002 9:59pm

    there are things wrong with some GM pickups, but according to the "Lemon List" there are more consumer complaints per vehicle with the Tundra than with any GM pickups. Sorry if you belive Bama's tripe but the data is there in black and lemon yellow. There is no indication, as he claims, that there are any vehicles with more complaints than the Mazda MPV which appears to be at the top of the list.
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    bamatundrabamatundra Member Posts: 1,583
    You haven't answered my simple question - "Where is the Lemonado on the list?" The most reliable truck - the F150 made the list(#1). What happened to the Shakerado? There are 50 other vehicles listed - none of them the Shakerado. I predict total silence from Hilly.

    Good Luck on this one now!
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    h0udinih0udini Member Posts: 118
    when the Tundra's complaints warrant class-action lawsuits, extended warranties, buybacks, and lemon law benefits on the scale that GMC is experiencing right now.

    As Chevy says, "We'll be there" waiting...till hell freezes over!

    And for the record, the F-150 WAS on your lawyers' lemon list as the best vehicle. The Mazda MPV is too, being the worst. That means the GMC trucks HAVE to be in there between the two, or they were simply omitted for some reason...
  • Options
    hillhoundhillhound Member Posts: 537
    Top 25 Best and Worst Vehicles The Center for Auto Safety analyzed complaints made to the government by Americans having problems with their vehicles. Below are the models that received the fewest complaints, and those that received the most. Models introduced in 2000 and 2001 are not represented due to a lack of data.

    Best (Fewest complaints) Worst (Most complaints)
    1. Ford F-Series 1. Mazda MPV
    2. BMW 3 Series 2. Kia Sportage
    3. BMW 5 Series 3. Ford Excursion
    4. Volkswagen Golf 4. Ford Windstar
    5. Mazda Truck 5. Mercury Cougar
    6. Volvo C70 6. Volvo S40
    7. Volkswagen Beetle 7. Honda Passport
    8. Nissan Sentra 8. Honda S2000
    9. Infiniti G20 9. Mitsubishi Eclipse
    10. Acura RL 10. Isuzu Rodeo
    11. Saab 9-5 11. Ford Explorer
    12. Chevrolet Prizm 12. Land Rover Range Rover
    13. Toyota Corolla 13. Audi A6
    14. Infiniti QX4 14. Hyundai Tiburon
    15. Nissan Altima 15. Honda Odyssey
    16. Lexus RX300 16. Lincoln LS
    17. Nissan Maxima 17. Jeep Grand Cherokee
    18. Acura TL 18. Volkswagen Passat
    19. Saab 9-3 19. Buick LeSabre
    20. Pontiac Bonneville 20. Suzuki Grand Vitara
    21. Mazda Millenia 21. Chevrolet Blazer
    22. Mazda 626 22. Chevrolet Impala
    23. Lincoln Town Car 23. Toyota Tundra
    24. Ford Focus 24. Dodge Dakota
    25. Honda Accord 25. Dodge Neon
    -------------------------------------------------

    Looks pretty self explanatory to me. If you guys don't like it shut up or post links to prove it's wrong. Looks like two separate lists, best and worst, with vehicles that don't make either list falling in the middle. If I'm wrong fine but it looks to me like one of you two should be able to find a complete list that shows which vehicles rank lower than the Mazda MPV. No indication they rated ONLY 50 autos LOL!-looks like they looked at all of them and picked the 25 best and 25 worst. Nice try Bama.
  • Options
    bamatundrabamatundra Member Posts: 1,583
    Why didn't your Shakerado even make the list? Another example of Chev schlock quality. It amazes me the you would even want to show this list. If I was a Shakerado owner - I would hide it.

    There are 50 vehicles on the list. The Shakerado is worse than ANY of the 50 listed. I guess that Shakerado fans like to beat themselves up. Go figure!
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    hillhoundhillhound Member Posts: 537
    Prove it. Show me a complete list that shows which vehicles rank below the Mazda MPV for customer complaints. If you're so sure the Lemon List is really just the lower half of the 50 best autos and every other auto in the country not appearing on one of the two lists ranks below the MPV then post a link and back up your mouth.
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    bamatundrabamatundra Member Posts: 1,583
    50 vehicles are listed. They are listed from best to worst. The Shakerado is not included. Does this mean that the shakerado is really best, but not listed? In your wildest dreams.

    The fact is that the lemonado could not even make the list of the top 50.

    You can keep pounding your head into a wall, but the fact remains - the Lemonado is worse than any vehicle on the list. Really not a surprise - Consumer Reports has listed both the '99 and '00 shakerados as used vehicles to avoid. Hilly will conveniently ignore this fact. Used car buyers will not.

    I predict that Hilly will take it in the short hairs on trade-in for his knockerado. He will pay top dollar for a Tundra. He will be happy at last.
  • Options
    ndahi12ndahi12 Member Posts: 235
    that most of you waste your time like this. Just go to the source and find out the truth. The source is the NHTSA. I searched the site and could not find any list. I find it very curious that a lawyer web site will have such a list from NHTSA and the NHTSA web site does not have that list.

    Houdini posted the complaints on the 2002 Tundra vs. the 2002 Rado and the numbers are verifiable. You can go to the web site yourself and find out that what Houdini is saying is correct. He even posted a link to NHTSA.

    I have asked Quad in the past to show me a link to the center for auto saftey where he got the list from and Quad has not produced a link at all.

    SO ONE MORE TIME, I AM ASKING THE GM GUYS FOR TWO THINGS:

    1. FIND A LINK ON THE NHTSA WEB SITE THAT SUPPORTS WHAT THE LAWYERS ARE CLAIMING.

    2. FIND A LINK ON THE CENTER FOR AUTO SAFETY WEB SITE THAT SUPPORTS WHAT QUAD IS SAYING.

    I will believe you if you can post such links. Until then all that has been said is a waste of bandwidth
  • Options
    h0udinih0udini Member Posts: 118
    Do you need a lawyer to interpret everything for you? If not, take ndahi12's advice, go to the NHTSA website and compare the Tundra's complaints to those of the Silverado's. Get it straight from the horse's mouth. The GMC complaints dwarf the Toyota's, both in number and severity.

    In short, quit hanging on every word attorneys Kimmel and Silverman say, be a man, think on your own two feet, draw your own conclusions.

    This may be a surprise for you, but you probably shouldn't believe everything you hear, especially from lawyers. Or GMC's advertising campaign, either, or you'll be in for some hard knocks (no pun intended!).
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    losangelesemtlosangelesemt Member Posts: 279
    I posted about 10 hours ago lol ... good job guys. At least the topics not dead, if we could just keep the back and forth somewhat civil then all is good lol.

    KG ... lol well I believe this thread to be open to anyone who can remain respectful to the topic and posters at hand. Just because one may not own a Tundra doesn't mean they aren't knowledgeable about them. Some people like myself, are here to simply learn more about them before we plunk the money down.

    There used to be a Toyota Tundra OWNERS forum and I tried very hard not to post there as I'm not an owner. Sometimes an occasional topic would get carried there one way or another but I tried to remain respectful from a non-owner perspective. Since this topic isn't owner specific it certainly should be open to all. It doesn't take a degree to figure out what's acceptable in these rooms and what isn't. I don't know of any Edmunds topic that has stayed completely on track, but plenty of them remain civil.
  • Options
    quadrunner500quadrunner500 Member Posts: 2,721
    ...invented by Alexander Graham Bell!

    Says right here:

    >The 2002 Lemon List

    Thanks to the efforts of the Center for Auto Safety, we are able to provide you with the vehicle complaints on file with the National Highway for Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). Each year, thousands of Americans call their government to register complaints about their vehicles. The federal government collects this information but has never released it to the general public. The complaint index is based on a ratio of the number of complaints for each vehicle to the sales of that vehicle.<

    Ndahi, let's review.

    1.) It says "thousands of Americans call their government...

    2.) It says the information is "collected by the federal government but never released to the general public."

    Translation: You won't find it clicking links. It's why lawyers get big bucks for doing research, and you don't.

    (And besides, for the lawyer conspiracy you seem to be inferring, you'd have to accept that the other 24 lemons were faked also. Why don't you just call the number and ask them?)

    1-800-LEMON-LAW
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    ndahi12ndahi12 Member Posts: 235
    So somehow these lawyers are priviliged and have information that no one else has. Quad, I have a bridge to sell you. You must be really naive if you buy that.

    The first principle of sound research is to CORROBORATE one's evidence by evidence from a second, third and even fourth party. This evidence that you posted cannot be corroborated either by the Center For Auto Safety nor by NHTSA. So it is not reliable. These are just a couple of lawyers out to make a buck.

    Think for a minute. Why would NHTSA withhold such evidence from the public when it allows the same public to post complaints directly to their web site? Doesn't that seem odd to you. It does to me. Why would NHTSA provide this info ONLY to these two lawyers? Why not other lawyers?

    You still have NOT posted a link to the Center For Auto Safety best and worst list that you keep posting over and over again. When will you provide me with a link to their web site so I can read/see for myself? What are you trying to hide?
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    PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    This is NOT a contest to see who can create more posts in the other guy's problem topic.

    I'm shutting down the topics where you guys continue this nonsense. Should it start up again, you're gone. Plain and simple.
This discussion has been closed.

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