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Comments
Why have you latched onto independent suspension as some sort of holy grail in vehicular design? You seem to want it for its own sake.
I have no problem with new ideas. However, anything new ought to be just as effective as what it replaces. You are basically saying, "Don't worry. Sooner or later it will be just as good".
Perhaps. But until then I'd like to keep what is already good. Onroad comfort is of little value to me when I'm in my Jeep. I have a minivan for taking the kids comfortably to grandmas house.
I asked this of kem but I should have asked you.
Can you name a single vehicle, traditionally used for offroad purposes, that has benefitted from independent suspension without giving up any offroad ability? Every single one I can think of was "dumbed" down as a result.
-mike
My comments were in response to your "flip" comments from your previous post. I'm not insulting you. In fact, I have a lot of respect for you. I just don't agree with you... and I DO have problem with your conservative thinking. That's all.
Why have you latched onto independent suspension as some sort of holy grail in vehicular design? You seem to want it for its own sake.
I have "latched on" to IFS/IRS because I see the enormous possibilities of such systems, off-road and on-road. It gets to me when I continuely read comments from people, such as yourself, who just can't see the light.
I have no problem with new ideas. However, anything new ought to be just as effective as what it replaces. You are basically saying, "Don't worry. Sooner or later it will be just as good". Perhaps. But until then I'd like to keep what is already good.
It's that kind of thinking that leads to nothing ever moving forward. You've got to take some risks, knowing full well that some of them may not work out. If aren't willing to take risks, nothing will improve, or move forward.
Can you name a single vehicle, traditionally used for off road purposes, that has benefited from independent suspension without giving up any off road ability?
I'm not sure what you mean by "traditional?" Hard-core off-road? Military? Off-road racing? General on/off road usage? They're all traditional, but they're all very different.
The Hummer and Unimog have certainly benefited from IFS/IRS. But I guess you might have expected that answer from me. As I mentioned before, there are many off-road racers using independent suspensions. Certainly the new IFS/IRS 2002 4-door Explorer (yes, go ahead and laugh) is certainly better off-road (and on road) than the model it replaced. Same with the new Montero. I haven't heard any complaints about the new IFS equipped Land Cruiser or 4Runner.
Bob
-mike
Those are the cold hard facts. There just aren't enough hard-core Jeepers out there to sustain the current product line, at volumes that are needed to remain profitable. It's simply economic Darwinism.
Bob.
http://www.edmunds.com/chat/freewaychat.html
Drew
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Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket and Accessories message boards
Anyone hear when the Liberty will be in showrooms?
Might I recommend a Subaru? We own two, and if it's just all-weather capability you're looking —and good comfort and great handling—they're just the ticket.
Bob
"I have 'latched on' to IFS/IRS because I see the enormous possibilities of such systems, off-road and on-road"
Oh? What enormous possibilities offroad are there? For what I want, I can only think of one; increased ground clearance. The Liberty certainly doesn't shine there.
"I'm not sure what you mean by "traditional?" Hard-core off-road? Military? Off-road racing? General on/off road usage? They're all traditional, but they're all very different."
By "traditional", I'm thinking back to the 70s, when you had the Chevy Blazer, Ford Bronco, Jeep Wagoneer, Land Cruiser, etc (others? - these are the ones that come instantly to mind). Which of those, or their evolutionary replacements, has successfully maintained an offroad image after moving to independent suspension? Certainly nothing Chevy or Ford makes. Toyota has done the best job, but the TLC is pricey. The 4Runner isn't bad, but in stock form still isn't a match for a Cherokee. Jeep, of course, doesn't count since they stuck with solid axles...
I'm not interested in racing offroad.
milt721:
milt721 Mar 9, 2001 12:09pm
If Jeep "sees the light" they'll make a Dana 30 a no cost option for the Liberty.
Sundance_gold: In this I definitely agree with rsholland. Why would you be considering Jeep if you have no need of offroad ability? There are many things to like about a Subaru Forester (if its an SUV you really want). Better fuel economy, decent ride, and decent light offroad ability (should you ever change your mind).
In fact, I would love to see Subaru try their hand at producing a "Wrangler-like" vehicle. Their boxer 2.5 engine and their AWD (with a "true" low range—and not the current "barely low" dual-range tranny found in other markets) would make an excellent starting point, IMHO. I realize, however, that's pretty much a far-fetched idea, and probably will never happen. However, one can always dream...
As for the IFS/IRS debate... why don't we give it a rest. it's obviously something we're not going to agree on. Peace?
Bob
Well as it turns out, Subarus, et al, seem to fit the needs better of many folks, than Jeep does, thus contributing to the steep declines in Cherokee sales. Jeep sales steadily increased over the past decade or so, because there was really no showroom competition. That's no longer the case. Choices abound, and Jeep sales are suffering as a result.
Bob
When:
Tues, March 13th (Tonight) at 6-7pm Pacific/9-10pm Eastern
Click on the link below to read more about/to enter the chat:
http://www.edmunds.com/chat/chiricochat031301.html
Drew
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Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket and Accessories message boards
-mike
I also will rebut all attempts to say Jeep had to do something because of declining sales. In 1999, they sold a record number of Cherokees, 165k. In 1998 they sold around 146k and they sold 141k last year, despite anticipation of the forthcoming Liberty (surely there are some people who might have wanted a Cherokee but decided to wait to see the Liberty). I still don't understand it.
A solid axle Jeep may be a niche product, but what DC is doing is angering the niche...
Yeah I like Subies. Not what I would choose for myself, but I think it ranks pretty high as a daily commuter/weekend fun kind of vehicle.
-mike
bblaha - The Cherokee got a workout. the son and friends took a camping trip with the boat. Boat/trailer 3100 lb, passengers and gear 1000 lb, Jeep 3300 lb = 7400 lb. It managed 12.5 mpg on 320 mi trip with that load. My son commented about the boat ramp being populated with large trucks/suv's with little tiny boats and they looked at him a little strange when the Cherokee pulled up with a 24 ft. pontoon behind it. The Jeep pulls it fine though. He said it really smoothed out the ride, like driving big Lincoln. I don't think these newer softer suspension systems will be up to the task though.
Somehow, I knew I was going to get taken to task for saying "niche". The number they sell doesn't exactly feel "nichey". Maybe there is a better word I can't think of...
paisan: I don't think DC is intentionally doing something to hurt themselves. They may very well sell more Liberties than they do Cherokees. What they've done, that I think they completely underestimated, is upset the Jeep offroad crowd by doing exactly what the crowd didn't want them to do; switch to independent suspension.
Jeep could have made improvements to the suspension without abandoning the solid axle. The GC is a has a better onroad feel than the XJ, yet it still is quite adept offroad (although I have a hardtime justifying that kind of $$ for it).
But no, DC made the Liberty just like every other SUV out there; solid axle in the back, independent up front. You don't benefit from increased ground clearance because of the rear, and the expense of lifting and maintaining is there because of the front.
If they were adamant about it, they should have done both the front AND the rear. At least then you can start to look for some advantages to the independent suspension offroad...
Speaking of Subies and niches, I test drove a new 5-speed WRX yesterday. For some reason I now seem to have a permanent smile on my face that just won't go away.
Bob
-mike
What new vehicle will Jeep enthusiasts buy? I don't know. For starters, we'll be recycling and repairing the old ones for many years to come...
The Range Rover is still solid (I've heard rumors not for long), but it costs too much.
If, after several years, the Liberty does as well as a 4Runner offroad, I'd probably consider one. As with most IFS SUVs, you can fix alot by by swapping in a solid axle. Solid axle conversions for the Liberty are already in the works (I think Rusty at least is working on one), so that remains an option.
But I don't know of anyone at either NAXJA or JU (places I mostly just lurk) that is excited about the Liberty and is looking forward to getting one. I don't think too many have thought very far along "what next if not Jeep?" lines.
Opps... didn't mean to start up the debate again. Sorry folks.
Bob
Once you are going to do a front solid axle swap, in other words modifications, might as well start with any IFS vehicle and work from there. I'm of the group that likes to keep my factory warrantee in tack, I'm sure DC will likely not honor warrantee items that are remotely linked to a solid front axle swap.
-mike
Sugar doesn't necessarily taste better, its just the food manufacturers haven't developed substitutes specifically to taste good.
The Concorde doesn't necessarily cross the Atlantic faster, its just the boating industry hasn't developed supersonic watercraft specifically for rapid crossings.
I like the way the Cherokee feels on the road just fine. I do not object to its "trucklike" ride.
-mike
ps. im sure that the auto makers COULD make a car that lasts 50 years, but theres no money in that. independent suspension is more updated, easier to redesign and produce thanks to today's technologies in the assembly plant.
another question. would a CVT work acceptably in an off-road vehicle?
Also, if you notice the error fast enough, you have 30 minutes to make any changes or fixes after you post a message. Just click on the Edit button that follows your message after you post it.
Steve
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Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
This KJ with a $28K price tag is maladjusted in it's environment. All the other SUV "cuties" are older and more defined/refined. The sales will probably be dismal anyway.
DC screwed their traditionally loyal buyers with this machine. And they have counted on alot of revenue from Cherokee repeat buyers that will not materialize. Jeep used to lead the way...It's sad to see them trying to follow the rest of the "useless" Kia's.
I have organized a petition that is designed to unite people that don't want the changes in the once proud line-up. The URL is :
http://www.petitiononline.com/hds2/petition.html
We are running it until August of this year. The signatures will be used to bring weight to bear on Daimler to entertain a meeting with us. A huge press/media rally is planned for late August in Auburn Hills. It will be really bad press for Daimler.
I'm also contacting Kirk Kervorian to ask what we need to do to support a lawsuit against Daimler. (more funds drainage off of their funds allotment)
-mike
Also, their "Ultimate 4-Wheeler" comparison test was won by a Tacoma TRD. Hmmm...
Bob
-mike
Most of the rest of your post is nonsense.
The Cherokee won't be around for a few more years. The Liberty is the Cherokee's replacement. Once Liberty production starts, Cherokee production ends. They're using the same labor.
Why on earth would anyone want an upgraded engine? I've never heard anyone complain about the straight 6 found in Cherokees, other than its fuel consumption.
More rugged capability?!? At its spot on the price spectrum, the Cherokee is as "rugged "as it gets...
paisan:
I don't take that as a ditch. Its very true. Owing to its lengthy production run, the Cherokee has a very attractive price. Far more people can afford them than can afford a LR.
-mike
In the UK, the Land Rover line up is a little bigger. Besides the Disco and the Range Rover, there is also the Freelander and Defender. The Freelander is an entry level SUV that is coming to the US soon. Probably start at $25,000. More of a "soft roader" though. The Defender is more or less a design dating back to WW2 from what I understand. Sort of a cross between a Hummer and a Jeep Wrangler. Popular in Africa. I'm not sure what it would go for if marketed in the US, but this is a very very bare bones vehicle, so I doubt it would go for Discovery price levels.
-mike
-mike
As to your question... other than those pickups, and the very expensive Land Rovers, there aren't any other choices. But of course, there's also still the Wrangler and Grand Cherokee... at least for the time being.
Bob