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Comments
The following Rant/Oratory/thinking aloud was froman email I sent to the guy running car-truck.com - and excellent source for Chrysler info. You guys are asking the same things I am - is anyone who cares listening?
"Please know I have owned a 1988 Jeep Comanche truck since mile 0 - currently at mile 250,000 +/-. And I'm in the final weeks before throwing some cash towards a 2001 Cherokee. Having followed Jeep with personal interest for these years, and reading your columns for a year or so, I hope my thoughts and concerns are close to the mark.
Going back almost 20 years ago, I can imagine the angst which occurred when the owners and fans of the J-10 chassis based full-sized Cherokee found out about the new down-sized XJ body. Shudder at the thought of Uni-Body construction! Curse the lack of a V-8, and carburation soon to follow. Locking hubs disappeared too! Yet it can be argued the XJ series kept AMC alive until Chrysler made one of its best ever investments. And this same vehicle must have brought in untold profit to Chrysler for nearly a solid decade, until it too was bought by Mercedes-Benz.
The features of the XJ which set it apart from every other SUV on the market today is also why I will consider only buying it. Sadly these qualities are viewed as hopelessly primitive by most of the automotive biased media. Yet the truck people still seem to respect it. Specifically two full solid axles, a fully cast iron in-line six motor and full-time four wheel drive far and away overcome the weak back seat. (limited legroom, small doors and no headrests!?!)
My number one question is why in the world didn't Chrysler hype this unique capability to the far ends of the earth? Along with this awesome capability is the astoundingly low price. They complain about weak sales, yet even with minimal advertising they still sell over 150,000 - in a slow year! This vehicle has more built in performance and after-market support than most, as well. True, marketing can do wonders for a mediocre product, but good marketing with a stellar product would be phenomenal. I see no reason why Jeep couldn't sell 300,000+ if they really wanted to.
Maybe Jeep really needed a new vehicle. This industry thrives on innovation and if Toyota and Ford can build several SUV platforms, so should Jeep. So build the Liberty. And if market research shows you could sell 50,000 more Cherokee's by adding a 6" stretch to the back door, adding a mom-friendly back seat (integrated car seats like certain mini-vans and head rests) - go ahead and do that too! Apparently they had discussed stretching the Grand Cherokee - and if they really need help, Boeing and the former McDonnell Douglas folks were good at stretching airplanes midway through the product life. Especially witness the unexpected longevity of the 737.
What scares me about the Liberty is this... What if it doesn't sell real well? Or if the appetite for new vehicles weakens even more and sales are even lower than slow? From what you have written and from what I've seen it does seem like a useful vehicle. Yet what will it do better and more cost effective than the Nissan Xterra and a whole bunch of 30 thousand something SUV's don't already do? Not only do they discard the proven durability of the solid front axle, they also abandon a very durable engine design. GM of all companies has rediscovered I6 advantages with their new 4.2L I6 multivalve aluminum motor destined for the 2002 Trailblazer - and it gets you 90% of its peak 275 ft-lbs torque way down at 1600 rpm! Now there is enough wizardry in this motor to give me heart palpitations and how it lasts for long term durability is any one's guess. Still its presence amazes me. Apparently the Trailblazer will start at about $25,000 invoice - this will definitely impact the price point of the Liberty. And where the little Hummer will come in at, with its attention to durability and capability also bears a glance as well. I really don't have any special love for GM. They make lots of good stuff, though and I think they are really on to something here. As far as Jeep though, where's the off-road leadership?
The Liberty is a big enough departure from a proven platform for me to have a real skeptical attitude towards it. Which means if I was in the market for a new SUV in a year or so, I'd be hard pressed to buy one. Maybe I'm like the big Cherokee fans of 20 years ago. and maybe the Liberty will be a run-away success. Sometimes, when a company has gotten themselves backed into a corner, they HAVE to make new products sell well and the senior leadership at Jeep and Chrysler will do whatever it takes to make it a success. Sometimes when a company is doing well, financial discipline and customer satisfaction aren't pressed quite as hard. If anyone knows about making a durable IFS system, I trust the designers at Jeep. But they must feel like there's a sword of Damocles hanging over their heads. Maybe it will be a real improvement in handling, ride quality and still able to take years of punishing trails. Maybe the 3.7L V6 will be successful as well.
But maybe there is something else going on as well. In many western states and in most of the National Forests, there are imminent measures to restrict vehicles to existing roads - many of which themselves are being closed or abandoned. There is a real struggle going on between folks of differing ideals and how this is going to play out will be determined by much larger issues than Jeep can control. Maybe the vox populi will in due time shun any vehicle such as the Cherokee. I certainly hope not. Personally I feel the market for these vehicles will enjoy a long steady if somewhat slower increase. There is such a strong sense of enjoyment so many people get from being in somewhat remote areas and we will use SUV's to get there for the foreseeable future. I sure hope the movers and shakers at Jeep really want to, and are allowed to be, a part of this.
Thank you very much for your time and effort reading this and thank you so very much for the work which you put into your website. I very much appreciate it.
"
-mike
You're absolutely right, when the down-sized Cherokee first debuted, it too bore the brunt of much critisim. Unibody? Off-road? NEVER! In a few years, I predict the Liberty will be accepted by most of the critics too.
Bob
The point I was making was back in 1984, the Jeep unibody was also heavily criticized—because it was new and unproven—in the eyes of many Jeepers of that era. When the Wrangler switched to a coil suspension—the same thing. We're seeing it again with the Liberty, with its many new features.
Bob
On the flip side, Jeeps have historically evolved at a pace that would make a snail seem like greyhound. That being the case, and the fact that the auto industry in general has seen huge advances in recent years; just gives folks that much more to complain about.
If Jeeps had evolved at a (faster) pace like most other vehicles, the Liberty would not be that big a deal. It would be just be another new model.
Bob
P.S. That's also the reason why Jeeps still have manual transfer case engagement. The Command-Trac (NV231) and Selec-Trac (NX242) transfer cases are also used on Duango/Dakota/Ram but they have electronic engagement. They reamin manual on Jeeps because thats how the current owners want it.
They should have put coils in the rear and fixed the interior in the XJ.
The Liberty should be a Dodge.
Bob
Press Release
SOURCE: Chrysler Group
Chrysler Group Sets Starting Price for All-New 2002 Jeep(R) Liberty At Well Under $20,000
AUBURN HILLS, Mich., March 26 /PRNewswire/ -- The Chrysler Group today announced that its all-new 2002 Jeep® Liberty will start in the U.S. market at just $17,035, which includes a $585 destination charge. Liberty will stand apart from the competition with its unrivaled combination of exceptional on- road refinement and legendary Jeep capability.
``With the all-new 2002 Liberty, the Jeep brand is delivering a unique combination of ruggedness, capability and on-road refinement, to set this vehicle apart from the competition, in true Jeep tradition,'' said Chrysler Group President and Chief Executive Officer Dieter Zetsche. ``Liberty combines the legendary Jeep capability that our customers have come to expect with a new level of on-road refinement -- all at an extremely competitive price to broaden our buyer base even further.''
The Jeep Liberty Sport features the 150-horsepower 2.4-liter Power Tech engine with a 5-speed manual transmission. All Sport models include driver and front passenger air bags, AM/FM stereo radio with cassette and CD changer controls, unique 65/35 split rear seat with one-handed folding operation, patented rear flipper glass/swing gate system, center rear shoulder belt, user-ready child seat restraint anchorage system, P215/75R16 all-season tires and rear defroster and wiper/washer. Four-wheel drive Sport models start at $18,545 including destination.
The Limited Edition features the all-new 210-horsepower 3.7-liter Power Tech V-6 engine with a multi-speed automatic transmission. The 3.7-liter engine is optional on the Sport model with either a 5-speed manual transmission or a multi-speed automatic transmission. Both Sport and Limited Edition models are available in either two- or four-wheel drive.
The Limited Edition starts at $21,795 including destination, featuring the 3.7-liter V-6 engine and automatic transmission. In addition to the standard Liberty Sport features, the Limited Edition includes AM/FM stereo radio with CD player and CD changer controls, air conditioning, power windows, power locks, speed control, keyless entry, height adjustable steering column, fog lamps, cargo compartment cover, P235/70R16 all-season tires and 16`` aluminum wheels. Four-wheel drive Limited Editions start at $23,305 including destination.
Liberty is the first Jeep vehicle with available side air bag curtains. Available on all Jeep Liberty vehicles, side curtain air bags ($390) provide additional head protection for both front and rear outboard occupants.
The all-new Jeep Liberty was designed and developed to expand the breadth of the Jeep lineup and broaden the brand's international appeal. Not only for traditional Jeep buyers, this vehicle will also attract the new generation of sport-utility vehicle buyers, who value on-road refinement and ruggedness.
``The Jeep brand has always been known for its outstanding capability and ruggedness with vehicles such as Wrangler,'' said Tom Marinelli, Vice President Chrysler/Jeep Division Global Brand Center, DaimlerChrysler. ``Grand Cherokee melded this reputation with luxury and now the next great Jeep idea, Liberty, expands the depth and breadth of the Jeep brand even further.''
Liberty will be available early this summer, starting with the 3.7-liter V-6 automatic -- expected to be the most popular powertrain combination. The 2.4-liter engine will join the lineup at normal fall introduction.
Liberty was engineered by the Jeep Platform Team and is being built at the all-new, state-of-the-art Toledo (Ohio) North manufacturing facility. As DaimlerChrysler's newest assembly plant, the Toledo North Assembly Plant represents the culmination of best practices from the company's worldwide operations for lean, flexible, high-quality production.
Also in the Jeep lineup, Grand Cherokee continues production at the Jefferson North (Michigan) Assembly Plant and Wrangler at the Parkway (Ohio) Assembly Plant. As previously announced, Jeep Cherokee production will end mid-2001.
Base Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Prices by model
MSRP Destination
Jeep Liberty Sport 4x2 $16,450 $585
Jeep Liberty Sport 4x4 $17,960 $585
Jeep Liberty Limited Edition 4x2 $21,210 $585
Jeep Liberty Limited Edition 4x4 $22,720 $585
SOURCE: Chrysler Group
(sorry rsholland, but I just can't resist this next)
Apparently, they didn't run the article through editing though. This is the way the sentence is supposed to read:
Not for traditional Jeep buyers, this vehicle will attract the new generation of sport-utility vehicle buyers, who value on-road refinement.
Bob
I'd agree with RSHOLLAND about the stampede to the dealers too. Imagine the sight of the Jeep lots when all of the Cherokees are gone and they have no Liberty's to sell. Think they'll be training their sales people on "selling up" to the GC???? Of course who would want to buy a Cherokee after seeing the Liberty pricing and design? If there are any Cherokees on the lots, they'll be going for rock bottom pricing....Golly, maybe DC wasn't so dumb after all. No, wait, they are.
The main thing that concerns me is the intiial quality of the Liberty. As I look for a vehicle, I am assessing intiial consumer satisfaction, recall issues, etc. Jeep hasn't been very good witgh first year build quality of late and that is of great concern. So, debate IFS versus IRS, etc, but I am extremely concerned abot them screwing the thing together properly.
I literally can't believe that price...
1) DC announced it was cutting incentives, bonuses, hold backs and perks to dealers.
2) DC Announced it wants a 15% cut in supplier prices by MY 2002.
3) The PT Cruiser phenomena.
So, how does this work???
Well, DC makes a ton of money on the front end by cutting the savings from incentives, bonuses, perks and hold backs to dealers. Combine that with the 15% savings from suppliers and DC makes a ton of money and is happy.
With this, it is now up to the dealer to make their money as they will not be making any from DC.
So, how do dealers make their money? Well, the PT Cruiser was produced in such small controlled quantities that dealers had no choice but to ask upwards of $5000 over sticker. Does anyone really believe that Chrysler didn't know they had a runaway hit on their hands? The lack of quantity was planned, pure and simple. With the Liberty being far and away the best "deal" in the class, the demand for the vehicles will be enormous. Max production will be 180,000 units for the US market, but after about a year. So, with small quantities out there, Jeep dealers then jack up the price and whammo, they are happy.
Oddly, it makes sense and could work. Come summer, paying 30K for a loaded Liberty may not be out of the question. You're simply paying $3500 over sticker.
Bob
Consider too, the stress of years of "Normal On-road driving" over potholes, frost heaves, buckled pavement and the odd curbside impact have on any suspension... Not to say solid axle will never need any work or alignment - I just don't fear breaking something expensive when this happens in a Jeep.
-mike
Bob
With the new Ford Explorer, there were hundreds being tested out for squeaks, rattles, and other small things that might cause a recall down the road. Ford, apparently, had enough wth the Escape and Focus recalls costing it upwards of a billion dollars. Even I have to admit that I liek the new Explorer...
Anyhow, as far as the "low hanging" IFS...Well, Liberty materials state that the fron wheels have 8 inches of suspension travel, so I doubt it'll be a big deal.
It would be wise to wait several weeks after the release to buy one. By waiting, you will be able to see what the crash test results are and see if any immediate recalls come out. You will aslo be able to read new owner reports to see what design flaws and quality issues turn up and decide if they are important enough to delay or cancel your purchase plans.
By waiting you will avoid the price gouging and mass wild hysteria that will ensue when the model slowly trickles into dealer showrooms in the intial weeks of the model's debut.
When you buy the first year model during the first weeks/months of the release, you often have service problems. There are often spare parts issues with parts on back order waiting for production and delivery. Also, the mechanics are not very experienced with the new vehicles, so repairs will take longer.
Enjoy!
Drew
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Bob
Drew
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It appears to be 285/50x16. Even playing with it in Photoshop, it was hard to tell. But I think that is what it is.
Bob
Are you sure it wasn't 60 or 70?
Bob
How tall are the tires is the more important question as far as SUV's go.
So, how tall is it?
My gut feeling, judging by the image, is the tire is at least as tall as the biggest stock tire offered on the Liberty. It's just MUCH wider, which accounts for the lower profile.
Bob
Unless Tirerack.com's stock isn't complete, it doesn't have a 50 series on a 16 inch wheel.
I've been trying to enhance it too, but I sure can't read it...
I was using Photoshop's brightness/contrast to lighten the tire to see the size. What I didn't do, and perhaps should have, is to increase the resolution from 72 to around 300, and then checked it out. I still think my call was pretty accurate.
Also remember, concept vehicles often have tires that are not yet (if ever) offered to the public.
Bob
Bob