Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

MINI Cooper

1313234363752

Comments

  • whitelighteninwhitelightenin Member Posts: 5
    thanks ray for your comments...the price is msrp plus the $385 for mini installed alarm...the thing that is not sitting well with me is the the car had an AUGUST safety inspection on it leading me to believe it was only sitting there since august...when i researched it further after i made my deal i found out they got the car in late JANUARY...all negoatiating was with them letting me know that the car came in the summer...the newer safety inspection looks like its been placed over the old one...i feel if i had known that the car was that old for a 2003 i would have pushed harder for less knowing that the 2004s were coming here in November...they also charge $131 for license and $195 for dock fees as well as tax...im trading in a late model car with very low millage and would have pushed harder on that side too...if i order a 2004 it will take 3-4 months based on where i live in Hawaii...havnt bought car yet...can you feel my pain?...hope the fact that it was built so early in 2003 wont mean more problems than the end of 2003 cars built...maybe im just worried about nothing...salesman is a great guy...aloha,paul
  • alanminialanmini Member Posts: 6
    750 miles on my new Mini (not an S) and I can report: The gearbox shifting is very stiff. The clock goes black now and then. And I get only 25 miles per gallon. Shouldn't a 1.6 ltr engine do better?
      Alanmini
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    The EPA estimate is 24 and most folks think this is fairly representative of what you'll get if you put your foot into it and/or do a lot of town driving.

    I'd give the gearbox another few thousand, but then compare it to a demo at the dealer.

    - Mark
  • hpulley4hpulley4 Member Posts: 591
    I get very good mileage in pure highway at decent but no overly high speeds (65-76MPH). Any higher and it drops. By decent mileage I mean mid to high 30s in US MPG.

    Around town I get less. Mid to high twenties up into low thirties IF and only IF I'm very light. When having fun the mileage definitely drops.
  • rayt2rayt2 Member Posts: 1,208
    Alan, 750 miles, your not broken in yet. I consistently get 35 to 37 mpg @ average speeds of 70mph while commuting to/from work. Around town 32 to 34mpg is my average unless of course I'm heavy into the gas, then all bets are off. That's with 14500 miles on car so far (2003 Cooper) Your still under warranty so have dealer check to see if anything is amiss.

    Paul, Alohaaaaaaaaaaa !
    Been to your great state half a dozen times and waiting to get there again to North Shore for surf competitions (when my wallet dictates of course) Last time there was in 96/97 Xmas/New Years. Had friends who lived in Waimaeha? (did I spell that right)
    Being in decent weather out there makes it tough every day you don't have the Mini, what did the price work out to on the 2004 comperably equipped? 2004 base S is 19400.00 plus options. 70 miles on odo means some ones been test driving it around. Even if you decide to buy it the warranty starts from the day you buy it so don't worry to much about it sitting on lot it hasn't done it any harm. The registration and document fees are typical with dealers, they don't seem to want to bargain with that.
    Good Luck on your decision, and as Mini says Let's Motor !

    Ma halo

    Ray T.
  • whoa99whoa99 Member Posts: 1
    I live in California, but I'm thinking of buying a new Mini from out of state. Any problems I should be aware of? We bought our Subaru from Washington state and had no hassles since the emissions are certified for all 50 states.

    Are Minis 50 state emissions, or do I *have* to buy the CA-spec model?
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    I have never hard of a CA model being different from a 49-state model and a lot of CA buyers have gone out of state - IOW, don't know for absolute sure, but I think it is a "no hassle" deal.

    - Mark
  • hpulley4hpulley4 Member Posts: 591
    My Canada delivered (and driven!) MINI has a sticker under the hood for California emission so I imagine all sold in north america are good that way. Shouldn't be a problem but I'm pretty far from Cali so I could be wrong.
  • arkytectarkytect Member Posts: 12
    It's really not that bad, you know. I bought a 2002 Cooper S from MINI of Hawaii last year and it's been a great car! I renewed my registration and it was $101. A new safety check costs $14.70, so you're paying about $15 extra to the dealer. I've never been able to get a Hawaii dealer to move on their doc fees, especially on popular cars.

    The dealership, the only one on Oahu, is actually pretty good (are you on Oahu?). They replaced the front bumper turn signal for free when I mentioned it was cracked (possibly by a stone) when I took it in for two very minor items (missing nuts on air intake, rattle in hatch area). They also reprogrammed the key remote to my specifications at no charge. Plus, they wash the car after every service call if time permits. They have had my car twice (oil change and the visit mentioned above) and have taken very good care of me. I think, considering the quality of the vehicle, that your price is pretty reasonable. We could be on the west coast waiting several months and paying a premium for the same cars.

    If you don't want to wait for a special order and the car on the lot is what you want, then grab it. If it's not what you want, place the order. Meanwhile, you're missing great driving! Best of luck to you.

    Mike
  • stryderstryder Member Posts: 140
    The actual build date of the car is on its sticker, under the bonnet, it also I think is on the door sticker with the tire pressures.

    Anyway, A car that's a year old will have depreciated, so I'm still not sure why it should only be MSRP, except that you can get it a few months earlier as you've noticed.

    There might be more problems, but early 2003's didn't have many more issues then current cars, so its not a huge difference. I'd say make them tell you how old the car is (The dealership can also tell its build month through the computer)and if you get a good enough deal, but it. You won't be dissapointed, but you also won't be if you wait a few months, depends on what you want to do.

    All MINIs are 50 state legal. People have imported them from many different states to CA with no problems not just states like NY with strict emissions, just keep track of any fees and such, and try to find a dealer who has worked with CA buyers and you should be fine. With the waiting lists (or lack of sane prices), its quite a common car to import.
  • eman5eman5 Member Posts: 110
    Is there any aftermarket mod to boost hp/torque in a cvt-driven Mini? I'm one of those folks who'd really prefer an automatic transmission--but with some zip. I test drove a cvt and it seemed a bit anemic. Any thoughts out there? With the next-generation GTI and Audi A3/S3 and BMW 1 or 2 coming, will BMW add some power to a Mini with a cvt, SMG, or six-speed automatic?
  • ozone1ozone1 Member Posts: 87
    I'm not aware of any aftermarket CVT boost mods. It isn't built to even handle the supercharger in the S.
  • rluggrlugg Member Posts: 1
    Dear Friends,
    Has any one had a buying experience
    with Mini of Pittsburgh Pa?
    Do they typically get MSRP for non S
    Mini's on the lot?
    Has any one purcased one for less than MSRP?
    What other experience can you relate?

                Robert LUgg
                 Lock Haven Pa
  • rayt2rayt2 Member Posts: 1,208
    East coast dealers are typically getting MSRP for ALL Mini's and then some in instances. The popularity of the car dictates so.
    I purchased my Cooper in April and only option was paint color (Indi Blue) I paid MSRP, $17375 + 7 1/4 sales tax(1259.69)+$130 clerical exp. + $65 registration fee = $18799.69 total for the car off the lot. That same dealer, Prestige Mini, Ramsey N.J.,now has nothing on lot for sale other than the ordered cars coming in for the patiently waitng owners.
    Supply and Demand is the order of the day with Mini's right now.

    Ray T.
  • martin44martin44 Member Posts: 25
    Anyone driven both Cooper models? I like the extra horsepower in S, but also like the mileage range of the Cooper-get another 50 miles on a tank. I drive more city miles, but often go over to Lake Michigan in the summer. I have a 14 ft. kayak and use my Jeep to transport it now. I wonder if I could put it on a Mini?
  • rayt2rayt2 Member Posts: 1,208
    I test drove both models before deciding on the Cooper. The "S" is much quicker in response but thats a no brainer knowing it has a supercharger. I needed a commuter car to replace my aging 91 CRX. I get the same mileage as the Honda did (35 to 37mpg) but have a much newer & nicer car to boot along with a 3 yr. warranty that will last me maybe 18 months with the mileage I put on. I have 16k now and only bought car in April.
    I am considering a trade in for the "S" possibly in the spring but it's a "thought" right now.

    Ray T.
  • martin44martin44 Member Posts: 25
    Thank you for the response. I don't commute and will probably order the S.
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    There is a new club for you in Edmunds.com Owners Clubs. Click on the link at the top of the page to go to the MINI Cooper Owners Club!

    KarenS/Senior Host/Owners Clubs
  • drivinisfundrivinisfun Member Posts: 372
    I have a 2002 Cooper CVT (8/2002 build, Pepper White with Black roof) with 18K+ troublefree miles and just a hair over two months ago, I took delivery of a brand new 2004 Cooper S (9/2003 build, Chili Red with White Roof. The '04 Cooper S currently has 2,300 troublefree miles...not once has gone back to the dealership for anything since taking delivery back on October 3rd.

    The Cooper CVT is my wife's daily driver...the car has been rock solid. We have done several roadtrips in it, including a 2,800 mile jaunt from Miami, FL to Williamsburg, VA and back in mid October. We drove it all over the place, including the Blue Ridge Parkway and the CVT was fantastic...the most fun "Automatic" we have ever owned barnone. The car has been great, no rattles, no squeaks, no electrical problems, nothing. Highway mileage is in the 37MPG ballpark and we have noticed that these cars after 12,000 miles the engine runs better and turbine smooth with excellent acceleration. Our Cooper CVT kept up with 18-wheel rigs and traffic throught the trip and in different terrains with absolutely no problems. These car's engines and transmissions seem to be fully broken in by 20K miles.

    My '04 Cooper S has been awesome. It is my daily driver (My wife does not drive manual transmission cars, yet). It is a different drive from the regular Cooper CVT. The Cooper S feels "Torquier" from the get go, while the Cooper CVT is quick and peppy from a dead stop. Sometimes I think it outaccelerates my Cooper S when I am following my wife, but after 40MPH or so, my Cooper S takes over and rules...the supercharger whine is sweet music to my ears!.

    The 6-speed Getrag transmission is firm but precise and the cluth pedal effort is excellent. My Cooper S hasn't had any issues with engine stumble and it accelerates from a dead stop out of 1st gear with gusto. I haven't done any pulley or intake upgrades yet, I think I will wait a bit longer to jump into the mods bandwagon. The car is bank vault SOLID..it feels like a pure breed German car!

    I ordered my Cooper S (I was in a 10 month waiting list) with the Harmon Kardon Stereo upgrade, MFSW, Anthracite trim, 16" Silver V-spoke wheels, Trip Computer, Rain Sensing Wipers, Automatic rearview mirror (A must have in the MINI), front fog lights, chrome exterior mirror caps and Cooper S OEM Chrome 3 slats front grille treatment.

    I highly recommend the MINI Cooper in either one of its 3 available flavors....5-speed, CVT or Cooper S. The most fun, best built, best looking, coolest cars on the road today.

    If any one has any questions about the Cooper (Specially the CVT) and the Cooper S, I will be more than glad to answer these for you. Since I own both cars, I am more than qualify to give you a honest and unbiased opinion about them.

    I will post a link to pics of my MINIs later on.
  • martin44martin44 Member Posts: 25
    Enjoyed your rundown on the Coopers. You are certainly an advocate for the car. I decided to order the Cooper S. The delivery date is sometime in March. I live in Ann Arbor, Mi. and closest dealer is in Detroit. He told me I ordered at the right time because the waiting time will expand greatly after the Auto Show in January.
  • hileatushileatus Member Posts: 10
    I'm really close to finally getting an "S". I'm considering sticking w/ the standard 16" wheels and performance runflats and getting a set of snows for the Wisconsin winters. Has anyone had any problems in the snow.........you East Coasters are winning so far we have had only a dusting in S.E. Wisconsin.
    So, how do the little buggers go in the snow??
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    With good snow tires, Minis are reported to be excellent snow cars up until you start dragging the low-slung body.

    Sticking with the 16's is a good move, not only for better snow traction, but for a more reasonable ride in the rough conditions in the midwest. I'm going with the 17's, mostly because they come in a package I wanted for other reasons, but I'm expecting a VERY rough ride and I may drop back to 1) non runflats or even 2) 16's later.

    - Mark
  • rayt2rayt2 Member Posts: 1,208
    First off, CONGRADULATIONS on ordering your "S" !!
    I have a 2003 Cooper w/no frills. The car absoloutely stinks on the stock 15" all-season tires in the snow. We just had 18" during our first snowstorm a week ago, even after the roads were plowed, so this is first hand knowledge. My buddy has the "S" and runflat 16's and he said it also was terrible. I just bought 4 Dunlop SP Wintersport M2 and had them installed last night. We have another storm forecast for Sunday/Monday so I'll see how much difference they make, I expect a huge difference !
    I will be upgrading in spring to 16" wheels and performance tires.
    The 16 & 17" runflat/performance tires we can equip. our Mini's with are just that and should not be used in the winter. IMHO

    Ray T.
  • eman5eman5 Member Posts: 110
    Anyone know whether there are any aftermarket armrests with storage and/or cupholders--or any plans for MINI to start offering such?
  • drivinisfundrivinisfun Member Posts: 372
    Try this company:

    www.minifini.com

    They just released their award winning center armrest for the MINI Cooper. I had the opportunity to see a prototype installed in a Cooper S a few months ago and was impressed with the quality of materials and overall fit.

    It is pricey...retails for about $250, but worth every penny of it IMO. It is only available at MINI dealers in the USA. It can't be bought directly from MINIFINI unless you live overseas.
  • cliffdallascliffdallas Member Posts: 1
    I live in Dallas, Texas and am thinking of buying a Cooper S. I would like thoughts as to whether I should get the 16 or 17 inch wheels (increased handling vs. comfort) and how valuable is the dynamic stability control? The car will not be my only car and will be used for fun as well as driving to work roughly half of the time (other cars in the fleet are my wife's new Infiniti G35-great car-and her old 1997 Dodge Grand Caravan). I will be replacing a 2001 Chrysler 300M. At $21,000 with few options, the car is much more of a value than $25,000 with a bunch of options. Thoughts?
  • eman5eman5 Member Posts: 110
    I sincerely appreciate your info and opinions. Hope you'll keep posting here, and that others will too...
  • eman5eman5 Member Posts: 110
    I'm trying to decide how to configure my future CVT. I'm following drivinisfun's advice, avoiding the packages. This forces me to make more choices, though, and I've already spent too much time on the miniusa site's "Build your own."

    Anyone: I need help in deciding between white vs. silver 15" wheels. And--talk about nitpicking--does a chrome exhaust tip matter? (I mean on a MINI, of course.) Do those white bonnet stripes fray or peel in a car wash? Thanks, guys.
  • ozone1ozone1 Member Posts: 87
    With regards to the white or silver rims...I think the white looks nicer, except be prepared to keep them clean, brake dust and dirt from the pavement make this an ongoing endeavor. I opted for the chrome package which gives you the chrome tipped exhaust and front and rear bumper inserts. I don't have the bonnet stripes, so I can't speak to those, but I have not heard any complaints about them.
  • rayt2rayt2 Member Posts: 1,208
    I have the 15" silver rims and prefer them over the white for the reason just stated by ozone "cleaning", the white can be a headache and need daily cleaning where as the silver do not show the brake dust as quickly. I also have the bonnet stripes and if they come off in a car wash it would be a surprise to me, the adhesive is very strong once it sets.

    Ray T.
  • whitelighteninwhitelightenin Member Posts: 5
    aloha folks...i bought a brand new s with the sports package which comes with 17 inch wheels...i also debated it and was learning against it UNTIL my salesman told me that the 2004 are better riding with the 17 inch wheels...HE WAS RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...i drove 3000 miles in my brand new car from sea to shining see and LOVE the 17 inch wheels...the suspension(spelling?) is better and different on the 2004 than the 2003...i drove both...just one mans opinion in this world of talk...aloha,paul
  • whitelighteninwhitelightenin Member Posts: 5
    the dynamic stability control(dsc) is worth it...go for it...check the higher prices you have to pay for it if you but a BMW...its a bargain to get it on the s which is only a $20,000 car with the option of geting dsc...i used it on my trip and it did make a difference...i looked at it as investing in my safety...how could i go wrong?...aloha,paul
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    Well, I just got back from a 2700-mile trip to bring my 2004 MCS home and the ride over broken and harsh pavement was pretty bad with the 17-inch wheels and runflats (Pirellis). Everything I have read says the runflats are the biggest factor in a harsh ride, followed by the 17-inch wheels which are very heavy.

    On smooth pavement, the MCS handling is sublime, but it really gets skittery if the pavement is broken or rough.

    I'm going to be looking at replacing my nearly new runflats with non-runflats to try and get a little more compliance - I'm hoping the local tire dealer will give me some credit for the tires. Maybe I'm a wimp, but I can't imagine living in an area of rough roads and putting up with the ride of the car with the stock 17-inch wheel/runflat package.

    If I had to do it over again, I think I'd just go with the 16-inch package.

    On DSC, it's a nice safety option, but I've been driving my car pretty aggressively and that grip is so good that you really would have to be doing some pretty outrageous things on dry pavement and public roads to ever have the DSC engage. So I think DSC would mainly be a comfort on slick roads. If you were anticipating driving your Mini in snow/ice or lots of wet pavement, then I'd go for it, but otherwise, I could see letting it go.

    A basic MCS is an awful nice package for $20K. All the good stuff is there. The options are nice, but I think the best value is the basic car.

    - Mark
  • minietalminietal Member Posts: 14
    look into www.mossmini.com or www.minimania.com, they both offer armrest with storage. i don't think the fini armrest has storage. the armrest comes in both charcoal or black and silver or black trim. the charcoal complements well with the mini leatherette. i can't remember the price (maybe 150) but it is lot cheaper than the fini. the drawback to all the armrests i researched is that one loses the cupholder in the rear. -laura
  • thepozthepoz Member Posts: 3
    I have just ordered an 04 Mini S. Despite MINI's safety claims, I am a bit worried about its small size. Have any of you been in an accident with the MINI (hopefully, you weren't hurt)? How did the car hold up? Thanks.
  • the_manthe_man Member Posts: 15
    I'm very close to purcasing a new car, I either want a MINI Cooper S or a Ford Focus SVT. Has anyone been in this situation before? I Live the SVT all around, it is a very sporty car. It has good acceleration, road feel, and handaling. I like the mini because for the same reasons. Which one should I purchase?
  • rayt2rayt2 Member Posts: 1,208
    The obvious answer, when asking the question on this discussion board, is a Mini what else!
    I looked at the SVT in comparison. Ford does not instill a sense of confidence having owned enough of their products, so I went with the better choice IMO

    Happy New Year to all...........

    Ray T
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    I assume you know there is a direct comparison test between the Mini and the SVT on this very web site?

    The SVT won, but it all depends on your priorities. If you want a better all-around car with more room and comfort, the SVT is probably a better choice and it handles superbly. But if you want the go-kart handling and unique look/feel that only the Mini provides, your choice is clear. The Mini is Germand and BMW, for all the good (and bad) that entails. The SVT is an everyday economy hatchback with good selection of tuner performance parts.

    In these situations, I recommend you schedule a 45-minute test drive in a Mini. You'll either come away giggling and realize that this car is something very special, or you'll come away wondering what the fuss is about. This is not a car that inspires ambivalence.

    - Mark
  • bikerider1bikerider1 Member Posts: 12
    I've finally found a dealer who sells at MSRP AND can deliver in 8-9 weeks, not 6-8 months. It's an S with the sport option, electric blue, sport steering wheel, leather (blue and black). My wife and I will fly to pick up the car when in and enjoy motoring back. Thanks to all who had imput and made my decision easier. Dan
  • bikerider1bikerider1 Member Posts: 12
    The arm rest #100-606 from mossmini.com sells for $79.95. It does require using screws to attach. The slickest one I've seen is from minimadness but is around $250. Dan
  • andmoonandmoon Member Posts: 320
    I bought a wrx over a MCS because I didn't want a first year model and I didn't want to pay over msrp and wait 6 to 12 weeks.
    Now that some of the first year quirks have been worked out I am looking again.
    Does the cold weather bring out more rattles and noises in the cooper?
    Don
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    My 2004 MCS is rock solid and relatively rattle-free at 4K. But that's too early to tell much.

    Based on others' reports, I think they've turned the corner with the rattle problems in 2004 Minis, but you do have to have reasonable expectations of how quiet a car is going to be with the suspension settings and low-profile rubber on this beast. It is always going to be noisier and have more creaks than a WRX. Cold weather makes either worse, its just you start out with a stiffer, more-rattle-prone car in the MCS to being with. If this sort of thing really bothers you, I'd get a different car.

    - Mark
  • curligirlcurligirl Member Posts: 2
    I'm on the brink of purchasing a mini, but having problems deciding on a few factors. Hope someone out there can give me some sound advice.
    *Cooper or CooperS? I live in So.CA so weather isn't a big factor and would use the car to drive in the suburbs and commuting.
    *Color- Thinking of Indigo w/white top or Anthracite w/black top. Looking for color that won't show dirt or scratches easily.
    *Complaints- I've heard some problems with windshield cracking,problems w/run flat, ac/heat not strong enough, makes rattling noises and brake dust.
    *How does it compare with a Mazda 3?

    curligirl
  • eman5eman5 Member Posts: 110
    Does anyone out there have the Sirius setup installed? Are there any exposed wires running to the antenna? It's a roof-mounted antenna, right? Are you glad you bought it with your Mini?
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    Enjoy!

    Follow-Up Test: 2003 Mini Cooper S — John Cooper Works
    http://www.edmunds.com/used/2003/mini/cooper/100167528/roadtestar- ticle.html?articleId=101220
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    The MC vs. MCS choice is mostly a personal judgment on whether the extra power is worth the extra money. Additional factors you might consider are whether you like the tarted-up look fo the MCS more (I think the MC looks better), whether you want an auto (then the MC with CVT is your only choice), and whether you want the six-speed Gertrag gearbox in the MCS which is widely acknowledged to be a much better and more robust transmission than the 5-speed in the MC. (The 5-speed does not take well to ham-fisted shifting and beginning-driver clutch technique.)

    When the day was done, for me, the extra power and better gearbox of the MCS overrode my misgivings about the overdone exterior and increased cost - I got the MCS.

    There are a lot of people complaining about various reliability issues with the MC and MCS, above and beyond the noise level stuff you're talking about. I wouldn't get a Mini if you are the sort that expects perfection in your car, but if you are willing to look past an occasional fault and extra service visit, then go for it. But the Mini is not a car for someone who is really picky about having any problems with their car - Hondas and Toyotas are definitely more trouble-free.

    The Mazda 3 looks like a very nice car and probably objectively is a better car than the Mini. But the Mini has a unique personality and attitude. Drive both and decide if you want to go competent or funky. The Mini is long on personality, but you've got to be sure that its personality suits you or it can just be annoying.

    - Mark
  • curligirlcurligirl Member Posts: 2
    Thanks so much for your imput. I'm going to go to a dealer this weekend. I did some more research and I think that the CS is the right choice for me. I was told that in the long run it's the way to go and will hold it's resale value longer. (Not that I would sell it right away; have had my Mazda MX-6 for 14 years.)

    Curligirl
  • stryderstryder Member Posts: 140
    Sorry I haven't posted in a while, somehow I got unsubscribed... anyway,

    I'm wondering what the build date of the JCW MCS that edmunds.com just tested. My gut feeling for the suspension differences would be that MINI very quietly changed the suspension in the early summer (sometime around May, the exact date eludes me) to make it 'better' but they never exactly explained what they did. They seemed to be pandering to sites like here that called the Sports Suspension + too harsh, so its very logical they would have quietly provided an '03 test vehicle with the new suspension to make everyone happier.

    Perhaps someone should contact MINI and find out the real details so the article is more complete?
  • zoloft2004zoloft2004 Member Posts: 1
    Hello everybody,
    I am planning to buy Mini Cooper but unfortunately there is no MINI dealerships in New Mexico. Do you guys know if BMW dealerships can service these car under warranty.

    Thanks
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    I believe the correct answer today is that a BMW dealer can service a Mini, but they can't do warranty repairs for warranty reimbursement.

    There have been several threads on Mini2 about BMW relaxing this requirement for owners who live a far distance from an official Mini dealership, but nothing has occurred (yet).

    Others would disagree, but at the present time, I would strongly advise against buying a Mini if getting to a dealership is at all difficult for you (you'd have to go to Phoenix right?). While many of these cars are fairly trouble-free, way too many are not and having a problematic car with a distant dealer would turn an annoyance into a nightmare.

    - Mark
This discussion has been closed.