MINI Cooper

nyccarguy · December 2001

I was just breakin' B@&%S. If you've got the capital to sell cars at a profit, then more power to you.

qbrozen · December 2001

I WANT to be mad at people like rickrover who take advantage of a situation and actually degrade the whole automotive industry and make true enthusiasts hate it more and more. Just like I WANT to be mad at those 40-year-old men who have nothing better to do than wait outside a toy store for several hours before it opens for a chance to scoop up every last copy of the latest toy (meanwhile taking it out of the hands of a child who ACTUALLY wants to play with it) in order to turn around and make a profit on Ebay. However, I just can't get mad about it. Fact is that its the stupid people who pay the markup that makes greedy people WANT to do these things. If there wasn't a market for it, then it wouldn't happen. But, alas, there IS a market and therefore someone will take advantage of it. Just human nature I guess. Frankly, I'm almost envious of people who do that. I just can't bring myself to make poor suckers pay more than they should for something. If I could, I'd be a man with more money.

qbrozen · December 2001

ya know, you don't really need capital to do it. OK, so he gave $1000. That's not a lot. As long as you have good credit and they'll give you a loan on your 4th or 5th car, then you would have it sold before you even have to make your first payment. It doesn't take capital, just nerve.

rickrover · December 2001

I never planned on making a profit by getting my name on a waiting list, it started with that ML. I jumped on the waiting list in Colorado, just happened to be in the dealer getting a car serviced the day they started the list, put a $500 refundable deposit down. I had a really old Range Rover at the time that I was thinking of replacing and thought what the heck, if I like the ML I'll be one of the first ones to get one, if not I get my $500 back. A few months later I get a call from a guy in Aspen that wants my place in line and offered me $8k to get my place - SOLD! Who in their right mind wouldn't have? As it turns out the first time I actually saw and sat in an ML I thought it was a piece of garbage (still do). Around that time the New Beetle was comming out and I did the same thing - not thinking of selling it, got on the list, I was 26 or 27 and got one of the first ones. Total hyped up demand when it arrived, sold it at a $5k profit without a problem. The second one I made about $3k on after driving it for 6 months. The M5 was the same deal - $1k deposit, got one of the first ones (Le Mans Blue)and sold it the day I got it for an obcene profit, the second one I thought I was going to keep but again someone really wanted that car - Imola Red with matching two tone Imola Red interior - that one was hard to give up (but I got over it). I picked up my slightly used (3k miles) Estoril blue M Coupe that day. About that time the waiting list started for the new M3, same thing all over again, total hyped up demand when my Laguna Seca Blue M3 coupe arrived. I plan to sell the M Coupe and keep the Laguna Seca Blue M3 SMG coupe that should be here in a couple of months, I don't care what it's worth. I will own a Mini Cooper S for keeps and get rid of the GTI - in a couple of years.
The M3 SMG is a keeper, I'll drive the X5 until the wheels fall off (like my old Range Rover with 170k miles)the X is a fantastic vehicle.

I REALLY like my 2002 GTI 1.8t, I put a little over $1k in engine/ suspension upgrades. It's got 225HP and an extremely nice suspension under it now. It will be interesting to see how the Mini S compares.

smchale · December 2001

I'm in Germany this week and saw a new MINI. The interior is hot. However, it looks like there is no legroom in the backseat. Your kids may get their knees squashed. There also is very little in terms of a trunk, I mean, boot. You'll have to rotate the backseats just to transport 2 bags of groceries. My Honda Civic hatchback has more room.

I still want one - I just have to make more friends with people who own larger cars.

sphinx99 · December 2001

With no rear (based on the above post) how safe will this car be in rear-end collisions. I know there are a few other baby cars fully capable of getting squashed on the road, but at least the Miata has a trunk...?

qbrozen · December 2001

Well, you have to consider how much is between you and the car colliding with you in a side impact. I mean, with the right construction, that small rear area should be just as good and even better at protecting you in a rear collision than if you got hit in the driver's door.

I guess something of a concern should be if you had people in the backseat and that back window is close enough that their heads whip back THROUGH that window. OK, I could see that as a problem. Side impact airbags keep that from happening in a side impact.

SMchale - was it SO small that what I suggested could happen to the rear occupants?

richardjenkins · December 2001

Has anyone on this board actually driven a new Mini that has an old one? Or conversely is there anyone who owns an old Mini that is waiting to or has placed an order for a new Mini?

Just curious to see how the market in the US is reacting to new Mini; in so far as whether the sales of them can be traced to Mini enthusiasts or just enthusiasts.

--rich

smchale · January 2002

qbrozen: I'm not an engineer, but you do have a point. The clearance between the hatchback door and the backseat is minimal.

qbrozen · January 2002

My wife gave me a die-cast 1:18 new Mini for Xmas. The first thing I did was take a look at the rear seat and how close it is to that back window. I would have to say that it looks like it should be a concern for folks who may be carrying rear passengers. Of course, I AM looking at a model, but still something to take note of if buying.

jwilberding · January 2002

I am going to London/Manchester next week and am trying to rent one to drive for the week. Worse case scenario I will go to dealer and test drive.

I will report back how it drives I can tell you from going through the S at in person last week, that the fit and finish is much better than I expected.

mdmetz · January 2002

US pricing was announced at the Detroit show today -- $16,850 for the Cooper and $19,850 for the Cooper S, including destination. Prices for the car and the options are now available at http://www.miniusa.com, and my opinion is that they aren't gouging on options to make up for the low base price, either.

qbrozen · January 2002

I was expecting $22K on the S based on reports in the mags over the past several months. Its nice to see that its an even better deal. The one I would get would be just a hair over $21. Dammit! Now I'm a tad aggravated that I already bought a car. *sigh*

tommyp13 · January 2002

I got an email yesterday, and went to the website and checked out the press release (used to have a deposit on an S, but bought a benz c230 instead). Anyway, weren't there supposed to be something like 14 colors? I realize that some of them are on the base and not the s, and vice versa, but I'm surprised that they've really contracted the #. My favorite, oasis, isn't even available, and my second, root beer, is only on the base. Makes me glad that I went with the Benz.

I really like the option customization, though. I still hear that you won't be able to order exactly what you want for the first several months of production. It'll be an interesting introduction.

rickrover · January 2002

My Mini dealer told me they expect the first cars that hit the dealership to be "fully spec'd" meaning they will have most all the options. A fully optioned Mini S will be around $26K - all packages, navigation etc., etc..

obiwankenobi1 · January 2002

Great looking little car! Especially the "S"

Yeah, I can wait a couple of years for one and then get the price I want. Plus my current lease will be up in August 2005 so I am thinking around 2004 to purchase a Mini.

Only problem is, with me in the front seat (I'm 6'1) equals 0 back seat room. My seat was touching the back seat. No bueno!

But sign me up for a Cooper S with Dark Silver, white top, sunroof every other option!

yotsuya · January 2002

Minis are not large, or even small cars by US standards. Once the novelty wears off, sales will drop fast because few gringos will want a car taht small, and less expensive compacts will out perform it.

I'm hoping BMW will eventually bring over a proper compact to the States, something like the old 2002.

seminole_kev · January 2002

it isn't just size or performance, it's also quality. I can think of no small cars that will match it in quality for that price. Also, I think it will be tough to find a car that will match it in handeling. Maybe the Civic Si, Focus SVT and Mazda MP3 will come close, but those are bigger and heavier cars. (never thought I'd say that about a Civic, Focus or Protege!)

mazda_nut · January 2002

By just peeking in the form here, I can see there is quite some erroneous statements concerning price mark-ups and hype.

First - there will not be any sort of mark up of the new 02 at any authorized BMW dealerships. None. Possibly at second-hand lots there may be mark-up, but BMW has a strict policy of marking up the MSRP on any of their cars. I do not work for them, but lets say that it is in the family.

I am sure they (any of the authorized BMW dealerships) will rigg out many of the new Minis with expensive options - but why not? They can sell more and make more  but they do not mark-up the price.

All are taking deposits  from $500 to $1000 for the std. Cooper or S. This money, according to the web site, is 100% refundable should you opt out at any time  regardless if you specd out a Mini for order (may vary from dealer to dealer). I hear of one case where one dealer had some issues with ordering a Mini with a power sunroof and deposit reimbursement. Check your dealer to be sure.

The MSRP for the standard Cooper and S does include destination charges - all you pay is TT&T beyond that (with options of course). Also, not all BMW dealers are authorized Mini dealers  you need to check for your own area.

If you want to see more about pricing and dealer lists and what other people are reporting, try these links:

www.mini2.com

www.miniusa.com (official site)

www.minimania.com

Just trying to set some facts straight.

-PJB

sphinx99 · January 2002

Well, their strict policy against markups definitely does NOT apply to M3s at the two Detroit area dealerships.

stickguy · January 2002

Or M5s, or the X5 at first.

Actually, I think it is illegal for BMW to tell the dealer what to charge. There is something particular in the Saturn franchise agreement I think, but a BMW dealer is an independant business.

qbrozen · January 2002

dealer can do whatever they want. Manufacturer has no control. And, as already pointed out, tell all those people that paid a markup on their bmws that "dealers don't add a markup".

silver_bullet · January 2002

Dealers are free to charge whatever the market will bear, as others have pointed out. You are just being naive if you believe otherwise. BMW/MINI dealers are going to behave predictably during the initial high demand period -- outrageous markups over MSRP and fully loaded "take it or leave it" cars are going to be the norm, IMO. Sure, there will be a few dealers who may sell a car at list to an established Bimmer customer, but this won't be what Joe Average can expect.

rickrover · January 2002

Dealers can charge whatever they want, the manager of my Mini dealer said he's not sure how much over MSRP they are going to tack on their Mini's. Because I'm a repeat customer, I will get mine at MSRP. I actually got close to $3K off my 2001 X5 from them then got another $1k off from the BMW club. Can't beat that. M3's and M5's, even Z8's are all MSRP at this dealership if you are a repeat customer.

rezo00 · January 2002

I like the mini but its way overpriced... you could get a toyota celica for just a little more... and it will do everything better. except the lack of heated front window and seats...or if you really want a value go buy a buick century for 17grand... thats not msrp but thats what they roll out the lot for, especially with $2002 cash back. 200hp instead of 115...a lot more car for your dough... If the mini was $15 grand it would be worth it, but not $18-20.

jwilberding · January 2002

As others have stated you are totally wrong. Although Mini-USA "strongly suggests that dealers sell for set price, it is completely up to the dealer" Maybe in some situations and locations throughout US dealers won't stick it to consumers, but they will in So CAL. Supply and demand drives prices and right now BMW is enjoying the fact that they have had high demand products for the past few years...they know it and stick it to those who don't know what they are doing when buying a car OR simply don't care if they pay more than MSRP. I know a lot of car brokers and preferred customers will get first dibs on the Mini and avg. Joe consumer will have to either stand in line, pay extra from the dealer to be the "first on the block", pay a broker or do what I am going to do.....wait until the demand drops off!
To some extent you can't fault BMW dealers, but I believe that what comes around goes around. Give BMW a couple of quarters without setting sales records and watch them squirm.

rickrover · January 2002

BMW has had many high demand cars in the past, lots of dealers stick it to thier customers (who don't seem to care) and BMW continually sets sales records regardless. Remember that most BMW buyers are not aveage Joes when it comes to income, want what they want and don't mind paying extra for it. I'm not one of those BMW customers, I've built a solid relationship with a couple of BMW dealers and don't pay above MSRP for any hot BMW.
If you like BMW's an excellent way to get your first one is to buy a certified used BMW for several grand less than new, it comes with a 100k warranty built in. This is an excellent way to get started owning your first BMW. I've got to admit if I was looking at a Mini as my first BMW, I'd spend that $20K+ on a nice used two or three year old 3 series - way more car than the Mini.

jwilberding · January 2002

I do have that relationship with many dealers due to nature of my job, but I am not going to call in favors in this situation. I was not saying that BMW would squirm or that they were concerned...they are putting out some great products. I was just merely stating that if things go downhill a lot of people would not feel to sorry for them.

Personally, I would rather have a couple year old M coupe for the same money as the Cooper S. The car still intrigues me though. I will be in London next week and plan on at least test driving one...will report back as I mentioned earlier in the post.

jcphenry · January 2002

that BMW USA dosen't make the mistake of gouging on the Mini. Initial enthusiasm is just that and leaving a bad taste in the mouths of prospective
buyers of this untested car might seriously backfire if anything should go wrong with these cars. Honda has a good reputation among youthful
buyers and has two highly competetive products launched (Acura RSX-S) and about to Launch (the new Civic Si). VW is powering up the new beetle to appeal to performance-oriented buyers. The old mini is a relatively rare entity in the USA
with no track record at all except as a collector car. I would bet not many people will tolerate big markups in this economy. VW had a good headwind economically for its new Beetle launch, BMW will not.

jwilberding · January 2002

If mini has the problems they had with the launch in UK (sparks at gas tank door) they could be in for a PR nightmare. People will still buy though! Look what happened to the X5...a couple of engine fires and people still bought. The new beetle turbo S has 180 hp with the tweaked 1.8t and you are right...a great alternative to the mini.

rezo00 · January 2002

but the beetle is still a pure girls car...

chem123 · January 2002

Just reading this thread suffices for me, but I now have a couple of things to say:

1) I admire your car dealing prowess (no joke).

2) What class do you autox in and what mods have you done?

novcenthusiast · January 2002

A used Mcoupe for price of Cooper S? That's about 10K less than the least expensive used Mcoupe I've come across. Please tell me how I can purchase a used Mcoupe for 20K.

deecee5 · January 2002

I poked, probed, examined and sat in several Mini's yesterday. IMO, it looks better in person than it does in pictures. It was quite stunning. I found it quite roomy up front but very cramped in the back. Even stripped, the Cooper and Cooper S are nice but you can drop a lot of change on the options (bigger wheels, metallic paint, sunroof, leather, computer etc.). I like the layout of the dash but found it a bit plasticky - even the brake and clutch arms/pedals are molded plastic. I would seriously think about buying one once the demand drops and when a dealer is closer than 60 miles away. A very cool car.

thor8 · January 2002

The Mini will always have a sweet spot in my heart, I first saw them in a road race overseas in the 60's and I could not believe how that little thing outran and out handled cars like mustangs and the like. Giggles at first from the crowd turned into respect at the end of the race.

sphinx99 · January 2002

I saw them at the Detroit show as well. Mixed reaction. The thing was extremely light and thin, started to make me do the blasphemous (on this board anyway) and wonder how well these things will actually sell. They're cute and probably a blast to drive, but they are light as a feather, will get mangled in an accident (laws of physics still apply), and are rather pricey. If you're going for a light, fun to drive $20k car that doesn't have a ton of room, why would you choose an unproven, boxy Mini over a convertible Miata that weighs the same, performs the same, is as fun to drive, costs the same but also has a convertible top?

When sitting in the Mini I was thinking, "the Miata has already won over many of the buyers of this car."

I guess we'll see how the thing holds up & how it sells a month or two after launch. I'm a bit skeptical. It's light, low on practicality, and by no means cheap. I'm sure they'll sell a bunch of copies in the first few months, but I'm not sure whether demand will continue to be strong in a nation in love with four-door sedans, flatbed pickup trucks and SUVs. Pricing will be key. $18k or $20k might sound cheap, but it really isn't when you start thinking about how little you have to pay for a sporty, fun to drive Ford Focus.

qbrozen · January 2002

but I certainly wouldn't cross-shop a Mini and a Miata. By no means do I consider the Miata an everyday driver here in the northeast. The RWD, combined with the low weight, and the convertible top do nothing to make me want to take it out in the snow. And let's not forget that, although that back seat may be a little small in the Mini, it is still way more room than the Miata. And lets not get into performance until we can actually get some comparable numbers for the 2. I think the Mini S will blow the Miata away on the track.

sphinx99 · January 2002

Yeah, but no "track" car ever sustained multiple years worth of good sales. It has to appeal to the regular joe.

How will the Mini handle inclement weather? Probably better than a Miata, but I have a feeling it won't hold a candle to most compacts just due to the low curb weight and low traction alone. Most of the reasons you gave against the Miata actually also apply to the mini. Hence my concern. It's pretty impractical given what the MSRP is, and on top of that it's a lightweight box that will be dwarfed in size by most cars on the road. I just see a potential plymouth prowler effect here. Great reviews, fun to drive, wins all the accolates, but people decide to buy the Focus or Corolla instead, which offer 80% of the fun and 200% of the overall practicality and safety at 75% of the price.

nyccarguy · January 2002

Who gave the Prowler a good review besides the Plymouth Press Release?

sphinx99 · January 2002

I remember seeing it get quite a few around its introduction, the typical "Wow, this is so different, and different is better!" Plymouth treatment. The metaphor is a bit of a stretch, and not 100% accurate but the question still stands and the metaphor still does illustrate it. Why would someone buy a Mini Cooper when they could get a Focus that is heavier and roomier for $5k less?

silver_bullet · January 2002

I used to own a 2000 ZX3, and while I agree it is a very good car for the money, it falls down due to the iffy assembly quality and cheapness of some of its parts. I'd love to have a higher quality three-door hatchback that is more compact than the ZX3, but two things will keep me from buying a MINI: No dealers in my state (TX), and the final price of a MINI with a decent level of equipment is higher than I can justify.

alf3 · January 2002

Sphinx99...funny how different perceptions differ depending on what side of the Atlantic you live. The new MINI has been somewhat chastised in England for being relatively overweight for its size!

I own a 2000 Focus ZX3, and absolutely love it - love the style, room, power. Don't even really mind the cheapness of some of its parts, as noted by silverbullet, due to its very low upfront cost. Mine has been incredibly reliable over 74,000 (yes!) miles, outside of the recalls.

The MINI, imho, is in a totally different niche than the Focus. The Focus is a very mainstream car using good mainstream Ford parts. The MINI, as you are probably well aware, borrows a great deal from the BMW E46 3 series parts bin - not a bad thing. Take a look too at the list of standard equipment on the MINI - you'll find many features of the E46 included in the price - EBD, CBC, head airbags, throttle by wire etc - lots of items that Ford simply cannot add in to the Focus at the price the Focus is offered. I watched a video on a MINI this morning showing the MINI's tachometer - very similar to the tach in BMW's M3 and M5 - and very cool !!

Bottom line - the MINI is a fine car by all accounts, as is the Focus. I have my order in for a new MINI, and I'll genuinely miss my ZX3. Good luck with your vehicle choice.

rezo00 · January 2002

With minimal options a mini can easily run 20-22 thousand...that puts it in accord class...

alf3 · January 2002

Actually, the Cooper is equipped quite nicely with a number of options included (including destination) at the MSRP of $16850.

Having said that, you can option out a Cooper or Cooper S to $20-22k. That doesn't put the Cooper into the Accord or Camry class; maybe the same price range, but certainly not the same class.

If you are looking to spend 20-22k on a family car, then perhaps an Accord is for you. I doubt that BMW will find many buyers cross-shopping MINI with the two family sedans noted.

cayennered1 · January 2002

I can tell you this. When I was at the Detroit show this last Monday, the Mini display was in my opinion by far the busiest . It was fairly small but packed with people.

Does this translate into sales? Maybe, maybe not but what it does say is that there is something ultracool about this little car that has people fixated on it whether they will end up buying or not.

I agree that its miniscule size makes it a questionable choice for many simply on the perception of safety issues. Still front airbags, side airbags, head airbags, DSC, Traction Control 4 wheel ABS are not chopped liver.

What will sell this car is something you don't find on a Focus, Miata, Corolla, or most any other car. Only the Beetle can touch this car for outright cuteness, funkiness, uniqueness and just plain coolness.

Yes the car is 5 grand more than the average compact. But it has numerous features that you only find on more expensive cars.

What makes me drool over this car is purely the fact that it has what virtually no other car has. Namely, personality in spades. Colors that get you noticed, interiors that are like nothing anywhere else. Have you checked out the metal tubing type door trim, center mounted speedo, dash mounted toggle switches from the 60's. This car is special. I sat in a two tone black and tan leather model and I just loved it. The idea of a yellow Mini with black roof and two tone black and tan leather interior makes me feel excited. How about dark silver, black roof and red cloth interior. That's right "red". I remember when you could buy a car with an interior other than black, gray or beige. These are the intangibles that make the Mini such an exciting car.

Still, it's size is a real issue. As much as I'd like to do the deed it will be a serious issue to overcome. I'm single, to buy it would mean that it was my only car and I don't know if I can go so small if I have no alternative transport. I can tell you this though, if I were a two car family there'd be no stopping me.

sphinx99 · January 2002

Be careful about crowds at NAIAS suggesting success.

At last year's show, the Thunderbird was by far the most crowded exhibit. According to the hype of the show, everyone was going to be driving them within months. It was going to be the most spectacular launch in the history of automobiles. Ford had a huge section of the cobo center floor (upstairs no less) with Thunderbirds of every conceivable color sitting there. That part of the center was packed. It had personality in spades, colors that got you noticed, and an interior that was like nothing anywhere else. Everyone said it was special. This car would single-handledly revive Ford and put the rest of the world on notice.

Well, you know how that one turned out. Everyone nodded, then went to the Chrysler dealership and bought a Sebring.

This isn't to say that the Mini won't be a smash hit. But "personality" actually does not sell cars. More often than not, it actually puts an incredible dent in car sales; for most people, human beings should have personality, not cars. The Mini's commercial success will depend on value, fun, utility and reliability, just like nearly every other car sold in the U.S.

cayennered1 · January 2002

I agree with your assessment of what sells cars. I simply was pointing out that the unique nature of the Mini creates a potential market just as the VW Beetle's styling lures buyers.

As for the T-Bird I never liked it and even neat colors and retro interiors couldn't lure me to it. Throw in that 40000 dollar price tag and you can forget it.

You should remember that the market for the Mini will be a combination of nostalgia seekers and Gen Xers seeking something truly unique. A $20000 price tag is not off putting. The $40000 T-Bird tag will limit the car's appeal.

For the same money you can drive a 3 Series ragtop.

I think the Mini will have limited success but then that may be ok. It's not a mass market vehicle. If it sells 20-30 thousand that would be quite good.

sphinx99 · January 2002

I think 20k-30k would be a fine target and quite doable. I don't think they'll be able to sustain that for more than a couple of years due to market saturation but they will definitely sell enough of these to have an impact on the U.S. highways for a decade to come. However, just as the Thunderbird had its achilles heel (that $40k pricetag) the Mini is going to have to find a way to overcome its compactness and ultralight curb weight.

jcphenry · January 2002

can be fleeting when it comes with a $20-22K price tag. Unlike the Beetle, the Mini was never really the mass market car of youth that the VW was, at least in the U.S. It's appeal in re-release will be in its uniqueness as a new vehicle, with relatively few buyers having even seen, let alone owned one of the original models.
I agree with the above poster, few will cross-shop the Mini with the Miata; the only similarity
the Mini has compared to the Miata is in general price point and the fact that both are likely to be owned as second vehicles. Miata seems to have more in common with the VW Cabrio in open-top appeal and sportiness than it has with the Mini.
The more likely comparison will between the Mini and the new Beetle and the new Civic Si. These will be real contenders for the Mini's market.

qbrozen · January 2002

"Most of the reasons you gave against the Miata actually also apply to the mini."

Um, actually, the only similar trait I gave is the low weight.

"no "track" car ever sustained multiple years worth of good sales. It has to appeal to the regular joe."

Need I point out the Integra?

By the way, I think the T-bird is doing quite well considering its high price and limited appeal based on practicality. The waiting list is still quite long in most areas and people are paying well over MSRP. I'm not saying that you can't find one sitting at a dealer somewhere - heck, when the PT Cruiser was still demanding a premium, the dealer around the corner from me had half a dozen sitting on his lot at any given time.

MINI Cooper

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