Mazda Protege5

audia8q · March 2002

if you want 10K posts....just post something on here like.....the P5 sucks, why would you buy one?.....hahahaha that should do it.

p.s....just kidding.

elec3 · March 2002

revka: Are you sure they're invited? Every Protege5 is still a Protege but not every Protege is a Protege5! Only Meade is nutty enough...ahem, I mean qualified enough by owning one of each to post in both topics

meinrad · March 2002

Has anyone removed the antenna? Is it easy to take on and off?

sunbyrne · March 2002

I resemble that remark. While I don't post with the same frequency as Meade (I actually have work to do), I do own both a Protege sedan and a Protege5. Granted, my wife drives the sedan most of the time, but dang it, I have both too!

shrique · March 2002

Very easy. You just unscrew it. Comes right off.

ppk_ppk · March 2002

Itz pretty simple to unscrew. I removed it last weekend to hav the car washed...

BTW, that raises a question I have been wanting to post about this. Do any of you feel that the antenna can be stolen pretty easily from a parking lot? Is it this way in all sports cars? Can't we have the unlock mechanism inside the hatch roof??? Any thoughts? - PPK

sharonf · March 2002

Thanks for the info on the lights. I kinda figured the ones on EBay would be for the regular Protege's.....but I'm not an EBAyer anyways....so that wouldn't be an option.
As I said, I don't have my P5 yet....waiting for the mid-cycle changes to come out....but I was hoping someone had the altezzas on with a picture so I could see what they looked like. As a couple of you said....I'd like to see them first....Since I'm thinking of a red P5....I thought they might look alright....break up all the red a lil....dunno....was just curious.
Thanks anyways,
Sharon

bjewett · March 2002

Anyone hear any more about a rumored spring/summer release of a turbo protege sedan (and maybe P5)?

mazdafun · March 2002

Since the P5s are getting to be "cool", I'm starting to hear reports of Mazda emblems being stolen. An antenna is not likely to be stolen (except by a scurulous P5 owner) since it's not easily identified with a brand image.

Still, if you're concerned, it's easy enough to take off. And spares are easily obtained through your preferred parts dept.

If you really want to lock it down, you could always make a modification by drilling a cross-hole and putting in a set screw with a "tamper-resistant" torx head. Stainless-steel preferred, of course.

riopelle · March 2002

Regarding bolting the antenna or permanently fixing it to its base - I don't recommend this as the entire antenna base can then be ripped off the roof, leaving you needing to replace the entire roof panel - mucho $$$$.

I found this out after investigating what do to when the antenna off my gti was stolen years back. VW recommended either going sans antenna or just taking it on and off as needed. Now that whip antennas are so common I think they are rarely stolen anymore, but I keep mine inside my P5.

meinrad · March 2002

Might have sold a few P5's at the Pittsburgh Auto show this weekend. We were walking by and made a comment about the moonroof wind deflector, which someone over heard and asked if we owned one. As more people realized we did, more questions got asked. They were all relatively young couples thinking about starting a family. They all had the same idea we had when we bought one. Just because we need a family car, why can't it be fun.

meinrad · March 2002

After the replies about how easy it is to remove I checked it out. I had never thought about it being stolen, but with how easy it is to take off, I guess it could happen. I probably won't worry about it though.
I ended up not needing to take it off afterall. I was going to run through the carwash since my car was covered in road salt. I was driving down to the auto show and wanted it to be clean. I'm not all that caught up in keeping cars spotless, but it was a nice sunny day Saturday, and the car was realllllllly dirty. But with the forecast for snow Sunday night I didn't want to pay for a carwash to last one day. So I took the bucket out Saturday morning, about 35 degrees. I froze my fingers off, but got the car clean enough. Of course we've got an inch of snow this morning the car will be covered in salt and crap again today.

riopelle · March 2002

Meinrad - You can go through the carwash with the antenna on since it is flexible, or the antendant may take it off for you.

Mazdafun and Elec3 - thanks for the detailed stereo responses. For now I am likely going with upgrading the speakers to the Pioneers that Mazdafun recommended.

yogwap · March 2002

Hi everyone -

For the past couple of weeks I have been reading through all of your posts and those in the "other" message boards to help me and my wife decide what our next car would be. Our last one was totaled in a car accident leaving us with little time to make a big decision. We took the plunge and bought a shiny new black Protege5 last night. We pick it up on Tuesday. We also considered and test drove a Toyota Matrix, Pontiac Vibe, Ford Focus ZX5, Subaru Impreza TS Wagon, and VW Jetta/Golf/GTI. All in all the sum of the performance, features, interior design, utility, comfort, looks, and price of the Protege5 came out on top. Of course, we came THIS close to throwing all sensibility out the window and buying a Miata instead, but agreed that we'd wait a few years and make that our third car.

Can't wait until tomorrow night! Thanks for all of your help.

Will

mdaffron · March 2002

What part of the country do you live in? We have a pretty good group of Protege and Protege5 owners in the Mid-Atlantic that meets from time to time. Also please check out the Yahoo! group that I moderate:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mazdaprotege

Meade

vocus · March 2002

Is the antenna on the P5 any different than the one on the Protege sedans? I don't seem to remember if it is. On my Protege sedan (when I had it), I used to just slide the antenna down before going into the carwash. On the Jetta I have now, the carwash attendant always takes it off and hands it to me before I go in.

riopelle · March 2002

It's a whip antenna, Vocus, just like on your Jetta, and located in about the same spot - about 6 inches in from the center of the rear window.

yogwap · March 2002

Meade - I live in the Boston area. Thanks for pointing me to the Yahoo! group. I'll check it out.

One thing about my buying experience: I only wanted ABS and moonroof as factory options. The first dealership I went to didn't have any 5-speeds with ABS and tried to sell me something else. When I said that I wanted ABS, the salesman said they could order me one but that it was unnecessary because people who know how to drive don't need it. I was shocked. I've driven plenty of cars without ABS in even the worst of weather without incident but I wouldn't buy a new car without it. Anyone care to comment? I went to another dealer and got what I wanted - and for a lot less money to boot - but I couldn't get over what the first salesmen said to me.

Will

mnkyboy · March 2002

Well, imo ABS is just a added safety option that is really not needed unless you live in a enviroment that needs it. I think its a complete waste of money, since I didnt use it at all on my last car! (I owned it for 5 years) Also, several cases have been made that showed ABS being the CAUSE of the accident. If the person didnt have ABS, they wouldnt have been killed.

Its all a matter of preference tho, if you want it get it, if you dont want it, dont get it...

meinrad · March 2002

I don't like abs at all and didn't want it on my P5, although I ended up with one since it was on the dealers lot. But I would never specifically ask for abs on a new car.

yogwap · March 2002

mnkyboy: i agree that environment would influence the desire for abs. i've also heard that a lot of jeep owners say that abs can hinder offroading in certain scenarios. but i'll never take my p5 anywhere near the rubicon...

meinrad: why don't you like abs? to be honest, there has been only one time when i really needed it (and didn't have it), but it certainly never would have hurt me to have. i can deal with rain and snow - i safely drove during the blizzard of '93 when most of the cars were driven into trees - but imo when you hit a big patch of black ice you're pretty screwed with standard brakes.

cappyk · March 2002

First off, if you are listening to a car salesman and his line of BS, I've got some lake-front land in Florida to sell you. The ideal car for you is the one they have in stock, not the one they can order for you.

That being said, I think he's right. I'm not a fan of ABS. I've had them on two prior cars (1988 M5 and a 1998 Maxima) and found they truly weren't worth the cost. The M5's ABS makes a loud burping noise when activated and would mainly serve to freak out the driver even more in a panic stop. I never used them in a manner where it was of true benefit. (Except for driving with a buddy of mine in the snow. He's like, "Hey man, this car have ABS?" "Gee, let's see.")

I prefer to know how my brakes will act in a panic stop rather than allowing a computer to decide for me. Besides, driving in the snow can be so much fun. How can I scare my girlfriend properly with ABS foiling my plans?

So no, I would never pay extra for ABS.

Cappy

mazdafun · March 2002

It helps, if the driver didn't learn to modulate the brakes before ABS existed.

With ABS, drivers who learned on non-ABS-equipped vehicles reflexively back off the brake pedal when they feel the pulsation, thinking their brakes are locking up, slipping etc. This can lead to accidents. Drivers with ABS should relearn how to stop by practicing stomping on the brake pedal and staying on it, to get used to the feel. Most drivers would benefit, if they get used to the feel so they don't act reflexively to counteract the ABS.

Of course, if you like to drive like you're in a rally, you'll hate ABS as slipping is part of it.

mazdafun · March 2002

To be sure, the Pioneer TS-A6999s in the rear of my Pro are 6x9s. I think the speakers in the rear doors of the P5 are round (6.25 or 6.5in).

shrique · March 2002

I specifically wanted it on this car. I got into an accident where I wasn't able to think fast enough to pump the brakes and locked up all four solid with the wheels hard over to one side. If I would have had ABS I would have simply steered around him rather than sliding across the front of his car. Personally I like them. I'm more in favor of stability control systems and ABS etc after hearing an auto engineer that worked on BMW's stability systems. He stated that he would never buy his family a car without SCS.

Sporin · March 2002

I'm no big fan of ABS, especially on small, FWD cars. My P5 doesn't have it.

bluong1 · March 2002

I'm with cappyk. My previous car has an ABS and I never get use to the feeling when the brake pedal vibrates while the abs kicks in and I used to drive a lot on the snowing road in the mountains. I feel much more secure without one. It's a matter of personal preference I guess. Chacun a son gout!

Bruno

cbmorton · March 2002

I wouldn't touch a car that didn't have ABS. It's an absolute must-have for me. I once was in the same situation at a dealership, looking at a car that didn't have ABS and asking them to order one with ABS in. The salesman told me that small cars don't need ABS, only big ones do. What baloney! Same goes for the line about people who know how to drive not needing ABS. Give me a break. I consider ABS to be a defensive-driving aid. No matter how good a driver I think I am, there are a lot of other people sharing the road with me. I could still end up in an emergency braking situation due to factors beyond my control, and I much prefer to have ABS on my side. Fortunately, it comes standard on Canadian P5s.

protege_fan · March 2002

ABS is a must in most winter snow conditions. On PURE black ice, nothing will save you unless it's chains or studs on your tires. But for those times when there's lots of snow, ABS is great. I can't tell you how many times I've seen older non-ABS equipped cars hit snow/light ice, try to brake and start to skid sideways. I've tested my ABS numerous times this winter and it's worked well, and it has also helped in a few real-life occassions.

I should mention that I learned how to drive in a non-ABS equipped car and was taught how to pump the brakes. I have had no trouble making the transition to ABS.

Also, mnkyboy, you said that ABS was the CAUSE of the accident? I don't think so, unless the ABS system somehow failed. Rather, it was more likely that driver error using ABS was the cause.

newcar31 · March 2002

Actually, there are some cases where non-ABS cars work better. Your car will stop faster if you lock your brakes in snow. Can't do that with ABS. I had ABS on my Integra here in MN, and I didn't find it to be that helpful. I guess I never really got into a situation where I needed it. My 2001 ES without ABS and with snow tires works just fine and works better than a ES with ABS and no snow tires. The one thing that many people don't realize about ABS is that it cannot create traction.

vilainefemme · March 2002

Good, I'm glad I'm not the only person who doesn't like ABS. A female coworker and I agree, you don't feel in contol of the car. I certainly know how to drive in snow and it's way more fun on your own.

My mother had once commended me on my driving skills when we hit a patch of ice and ended up in the ditch. It wasn't until years later that I finally told her that if the tires don't stop me, of course I'm gonna keep pushing the brakes!

vf
(Jessica - who's P5 doesn't have ABS)

ashutoshsm · March 2002

Not to sound trite or anything, but do you have the same opinion about the airbags and crash bars in the side of the car - 'never used them in the 5 years I owned the car, so a waste of money!'?

I hope not. Unless you DO plan to rally, there is no denying that having ABS is better than not having it. So long as you know to expect the pulsing sensation in your brakes, of course ;-)

On dry pavement, at the limit - it is POSSIBLE (for a small minority of drivers) to stop quicker without ABS, but in snow, emergency situations and the like - it is preferable to be driving an ABS equipped car.

newcar31 · March 2002

I disagree. I would rather NOT have ABS in the snow. Stopping distances actually INCREASE with ABS and snow. You will stop quicker in the snow if you lock the brakes.

meinrad · March 2002

The main problem I have with it is stopping distances are not always shorter with abs. On gravel and snow, locking the wheels can actually create shorter distances. Thats my experience and backed by abs people themselves.

http://www.abs-education.org/faqs/faqindex.htm

I completely agree that on wet, slippery roads, the advantages of ABS are real and useful. Being able to steer the car while breaking, and the ability to just slam the pedal, which is what most people do in a panic situation. But I've grown to dislike it, because I've ended up in the middle of too many intersections while my abs pumped. Personally I've never had a situation that abs has helped me, only many where it has hurt. Especially in the winter around here, they throw ashes at the intersections, when the snow melts it's just like sliding on gravel. There are many factors that go into it, but for me I prefer not to have ABS. I'm sure for alot of other people the advantages outway the disadvantages.

ateixeira · March 2002

The key with ABS is that you can maintain control around turns or on split traction surfaces. Even an expert without ABS will have trouble staying on track without it.

In those situations, to match ABS you would need 4 legs and 4 independent brake pedals modulating each individual wheel. Otherwise you cannot making full use of the 4 contact patches you have available to you.

-juice (owns cars with and without ABS)

newcar31 · March 2002

I agree with you. I don't deny that ABS can be helpful. I just don't think it's worth the money.

"Personally I've never had a situation that abs has helped me, only many where it has hurt"

Me too.

Another thing is that I try to buy cars that are as simple as possible. ABS is very spendy stuff to work on.

shrique · March 2002

Personally I've been in a few situations where I've had the ability evaluate performance with and without ABS. For me it's not the stopping distance because that is going to be a minimal distance differnce. For me it's the ability to steer while sliding. Plus if I need to have some fun that's what the E-brake s for. But seriously I recently slid down a VERY slick long offramp here in MN and even though I wasn't stopping as fast as I THOUGHT I would I can't evanluate that unless I drive hte same car through the same situation. During that LONG slide I was thoroughly amazed at how much control that I DID have. I've driven other cars that once you lock up like that you don't have a prayer of control when the brakes are locked you can try but you usually end up letting up on the brake to allow the car to right itself. I know that in those few circumstances you have the petal to the floor and ABS is pulsing away you FEEL like you have no control because your not stopping as fast as you would like but the amount of steering control you have is amazing.

BTW since that accident I had in my 89 Civic HB where I'm sure that I would have been able to steer clear. (dry pavment front wheels locked left) I've become an ABS convert. It doesn't give you the control you crave if you plan on racing your car but 99% of the time I'm doing no more than trying to protect my family.

sunbyrne · March 2002

I had a similar experience--the dealer didn't have a 5-speed with ABS. But my dealer was really good about it and didn't try to sell me one without, he worked hard to get me one that had the equipment I wanted and did so quickly.

Anyway, I wouldn't have considered the car without that option, but not so much for the ABS. Unfortunately, Mazda bundled side airbags with ABS, and I just wouldn't buy a new car that didn't have side airbags.

On the whole I think ABS is a win. No offense to anyone, but (as usual) I prefer large-sample data on things like this to individual opinion. My last conversation with a guy who makes his living as an auto safety expert witness tells me the data support ABS as safer overall, particularly in bad climates.

However, here in flat and never-snowy or icy Houston, I'm still not sure I would have paid extra for it if it were a separate option apart from side airbags. I do like the EBD though, which you need ABS to get. The brakes feel like they hold better when the car is more loaded, and that I like.

maltb · March 2002

Most of the ABS comparisons you see are with 1 or 2 channel ABS systems. Almost every new car uses 4 channel ABS which can be much more effective on surfaces with varying traction.

So newcar, it can create traction that you otherwise wouldn't have as you CAN'T modulate all for wheels. If you are good, you'll control the front to back, but never all 4.

bjewett · March 2002

One problem with locking up the brakes (snow or otherwise) is the possibility of a spin (if say one side of the car is getting slightly better traction). Or, as Bedard/Car and Driver has pointed out, if you were trying to brake a non-ABS car at the threshhold of lockup - the presumed optimum braking conditions allowing the shortest stop - it is quite likely that one tire will lock up before the others, since tire/braking systems are not perfectly uniform among all tires. I suppose there are circumstances where mashing the (non-ABS) pedal is preferred.

My next car will have abs, primarily for the rainy season (my main concern). I like the idea of steering and braking not being (almost) mutually exclusive...

douglam · March 2002

I would suggest those who think they should pump the brakes during hard braking to get ABS because that's the WRONG way! what's correct is to perform threshold braking, you should 'squeeze' the brakes until it's at the threshold just before the wheels begin to lock up. This way you'll maintain control while performing braking. If you pump and release, it's not going to do you any good, unless you can brake and release as fast as a ABS system

protege_fan · March 2002

They don't teach threshold braking in driver's ed classes up here in Canada...at least in my town they didn't.

Tup · March 2002

Well, this has become the ABS forum. There is truth in these posts, ABS is a good safety feature. However, as others have pointed out, in snow it can increase your stopping distances. When your wheels lock up in snow, your front tires actually plow the snow in front of them and that snowplow effect helps to stop you faster. Going down a snowy hill with ABS engaged I've found myself going much farther than you would expect....possibly into an intersection. That said, you just have to learn how they will react under these conditions and adjust because the overall benefit of not locking up your wheels during emergency stops is quite valuable.

reitrof · March 2002

Has anybody been able to buy one of these or are they still on backorder?

newcar31 · March 2002

I see what you are saying, but ABS still doesn't "create" traction. It may assist you in USING the traction that you already have, but it does not "create" traction. Tires grip the same with or without ABS. The only real benefit that I see with ABS is the ability to steer and brake at the same time while maintaining some sort of control.....which is an excellent thing.....that I won't pay extra money for. My snow tires were cheap, and I will outstop (and maintain control) any stock tired, ABS equipped Protege.

mustang87 · March 2002

if you are in a hard braking situation you must be smoking crack if you think you will remember to pump your brake pedal on a non-abs car. you just slam it. maybe some of you will remmember to pump it (and thus it will increase your braking distance anyway which is not good) but the other 99% of drivers on the road will not. this is where abs comes in. it pumps the brakes for you. if you slam on them you have a good chance of locking the wheels up and loosing your steering. if you are on a wet road forget about walking away from the accident. i don't know about snow. never drove on it. but here in florida it rains every day in the summer. i have no abs but i wanted it. didn't have time to wait for another yellow car.

and somebody awhile back said they don't want to wash the car for one day because it will get dirty again. the reason you wash your car (and you should wash it often) is not only to make it look good but to make sure that the dirt that was collected on it does not get embedded into the paint. sure it will get dirty tommorow but if you don't wash it the dirt will just pile on in layers, get into the paint, damage it and you will never be able to get it out.

mazdafun · March 2002

I said they back off because the ABS pulsing surprised them.

In either case, all drivers need to learn how to handle their vehicles at their limits (including getting used to the increased stopping distance on loose surfaces). I know for one that ABS DID NOT prevent my wife from hitting a bollard on the outside of a turn on a loose snow-covered surface. The ABS kept her brakes from locking, but sure didn't help her steer on the snow. No lateral grip in that situation. Probably should've given it a little gas and pulled her car to the side to avoid it, but that's 20/20 hind-sight.

Unfortunately, driver's ed only covers the basics, and usually only under "good" conditions.

If you've got ABS, practice some "panic" stops to get used to it and learn to steer whilst braking. If not, then learn to threshold brake & steer instead of stomping and locking. Neither will help a driver who stomps and freezes (the steering wheel, that is).

hpulley4 · March 2002

As others have said, you squeeze non-ABS brakes to the point of highest stopping ability and if you lock them up, you quickly release and reapply when you feel the wheels rolling again (the trouble is, if you do this in an ABS-equipped car, you'll defeat it). You don't just pump them madly as that increases the stopping distance whether or not you have ABS. You don't slam them either, you squeeze them so there is a moment to detect the threshold.

Is non-ABS the best in every situation? No, but I wish all those expensive sensors could tell when it would be best to lock up the wheels and when it would be best to keep 'em rolling. That way you'd have the best stopping in all situations.

Me, I've had situations where dogs and other cars have jumped out in front of my car and I've locked up all 4 brakes in snow and JUST stopped in time without ABS. Any added distance slapped on by ABS would have meant dead dogs and crunched cars. OTOH, I've locked up all 4 on ice and bumped someone (just bumper scuffs) and perhaps ABS would have helped me in that situation -- I don't know.

I live in Canada but I've been through enough winters that I know what it feels like when I'm starting to slide - I let up on the brakes, steer and reapply them. You can steer and brake without ABS. Saying you can't is BS. Sure, once you've locked the wheels up completely you have to wait for them to roll before you can steer but those of you saying "you'll never think to pump the brakes in a panic situation" are thinking very highly of yourself when you think you will have the awareness to steer around an accident and not go off the road in the process in the same panic stop situation.

The main thing car manufacturers should offer, IMO, is choice. Some want ABS, some don't. Why can't they put some of each on their lots? If their marketing research says 80% of people want ABS, then build and stock them that way. Don't use sales lines to convince them that whatever they have on the lot is the best. I'm shopping for a new 5-door right now and cars that only come with ABS give me second thoughts.

meinrad · March 2002

My last take on ABS. In my experience, I've never needed it, but I may in the future. Still doesn't warrant it for me. I suppose I could wear a helmet everwhere I go, it would be safer if I ever tripped and fell down but I think it's overkill. And thats how I feel about ABS, it can be good, but just really isn't a priority for me.

And washing, I mentioned earlier about not wanting to "pay" for a car wash that would last one day, so I went outside and braved the cold to do it myself. I agree with you about getting the dirt off to some extent. If my car is realllllly dirty, then I go out of my way to get it clean first chance I get, regardless of the weather forcast. But if it's just a little dirty or dusty, I'm never gonna bust my butt to get it clean knowing it's just going to get dirty during the next days rain.

Sporin · March 2002

"The only real benefit that I see with ABS is the ability to steer and brake at the same time while maintaining some sort of control.....which is an excellent thing.....that I won't pay extra money for. My snow tires were cheap, and I will outstop (and maintain control) any stock tired, ABS equipped Protege." -- newcar31

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Add to that... I couldn't have a moonroof due to headroom issues. I absolutely didn't want side airbags because I am a big guy and have serious worries about the safety of such a device with someone my size.

If ABS is on a car I am buying or a cheap, stand-alone option, then I would take it. But as long as it is bundled with things I neither want nor need, I won't pay extra for it.

Mazda Protege5

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