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Mazda Protege5
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about dealers. don't give up on mazda because you encountered 1 bad dealer. my mom wanted a corrolla. the dealer abc we went to, screwed us over. i called our lawyer but he said that he won't be able to do anything about it and told us not to go to dealer xyz because he knew many people who got ripped off there. few days later we went to dealer xyz and to make the story short bought a brand new 2002 rav4 loaded for what dealer abc wanted to sell us 2003 corrolla for. rav4 is based on a corolla but it is still a lot nicer. oh yeah, the sticker on the rav4 was like 23k and we got it for less than 19k.
:-D :-D :-D
Hofu
Ujina by comparison is located very very close to Hiroshima
Ujina
Anyway, I like your explanation and it sounds completely right. Maybe they use the Hiroshima name to distinguish between Hofu I and Hofu II.
Most cars can handle the occasional mis-shift like the 5->4 shift I did yesterday while trying to hit 5->6. The Miata whined like a baby up to 8k, but it bounced right back.
The car is great. Better than the Matrix. (I can hear rattles in the glove box on the Matrix).
Thanks everyone on the board.
In actuality, shifting at redline is best for maximum performance in our vehicles. Remember, the gears act as torque multipliers. Let's say you shift at 5,500rpm in third gear to put the engine at 4,000rpm in fourth. Sure, you've put the engine at it's torque peak (for a brief second anyways), but what about torque to the wheels? Since the Protege's torque curve is so flat, you will never produce nearly as much torque in fourth gear than you can produce in third gear. The same goes for all gears... The lower gear will always produce more torque than is possible in a higher gear. Therefore, to be putting the maximum amount of power to the ground, shift at redline.
Wanna see a Protege torque curve? Injen Technology ran a dyno on my '99 ES sedan before and after they installed their cold air intake. I have the dyno scanned in on my website:
http://www.caliprotegemeet.1hwy.com/mycar.html
Believe it or not, my 1.8L puts more power to the ground than most 2.0L's we have seen dynos for. Over at the ProtegeClub forum, the technical gurus were actually not surprised...
-Jerry
"Protege's torque curve is so flat". This is only true for rpm lower than the max-power rpm (6000 rpm). Here is what my math teacher tells me:
- The zero derivative of the power=(rpmxtorque) at 6000 rpm implies that the torque must drop faster than the rpm after 6000 rpm, i.e., drop quite drastically fast. So I believe the torque curve will be flat only until 5000 rpm, but not quite afterward.
- Power must more or less be conserved, i.e., the power at the wheel is about (-20%?) the power at the shaft, more or less uniform through the whole range of engine rpm. As the rpm of the wheel is determined by your current car speed, the maximum power IS maximum torque at the wheel, period.
- The only reason to shift at the red line is the when we shift up, the engine does not drop much bellow the maximum power peak zone.
Bruno
Stock torque at the wheels per 500 rpm:
2,000 rpm -- 95 ft-lbs
2,500 rpm -- 99 ft-lbs
3,000 rpm -- 99 ft-lbs
3,500 rpm -- 104 ft-lbs
4,000 rpm -- 105 ft-lbs - Torque Peak 105 ft-lbs
4,500 rpm -- 103 ft-lbs
5,000 rpm -- 100 ft-lbs
5,500 rpm -- 96 ft-lbs
6,000 rpm -- 90 ft-lbs - HP Peak 102.8 hp
6,400 rpm -- 84 ft-lbs*
*Rev limiter won't allow adequate testing at 6,500rpm.
That's pretty flat for me... You should see a Honda/Acura torque curve. Anyways, a typical front wheel drive 5-spd vehicle will suffer a 15% drivetrain loss to power. Peak torque on the 1.8L is 120 ft-lbs at the crank... dyno shows 105 ft-lbs at the wheels... 12.5% loss on my vehicle.
If you multiply the gear ratios times the torque, you get the transmission output (to get actual output to the ground, you would have to factor the final drive ratio). At redline in 1st gear, 278 ft-lbs is being produced. This is more than any output in second gear. At redline in 2nd gear, 155 ft-lbs is being produced. This more than any output in third gear. And so on and so on... The multiplied torque in any given gear is going to be greater at redline than the multiplied torque at any engine speed in the next higher gear.
If you shift earlier than redline, you are giving up precious power. In many engines out there where the torque curve drops off dramatically, shifting before redline is highly recommended. But, working out the math in our cars, a shift at redline is best.
-Jerry
Bruno
-Jerry
BTW, are you sure the torque at 3000 rpm is 99 ftxlb? It should be around 102 to be consistent with the rest.
Bruno
If you know where to find a torque curve of the 2.0l engine, I'll be happy to do the same and post the result.
Bruno
It really is 99 ft-lbs. On the 1.8L engine, you get a big power surge between 3,400-4,000rpm. When I drove the 2.0L, that's the first thing I noticed... no power surge.
You can try this ProtegeClub thread for two different dyno sheets of the 2.0L without mods. You can see the higher torque at lower rpm, but it does fall a lot steeper past the 5,000rpm mark, just as you predicted.
The torque curve on the 2.0L is actually pretty different than the 1.8L. The 2.0L has high low-end and low high-end torque. The 1.8L has a bit less torque, but it's pretty consistent throughout the rev range. Another thing I noticed with these 2.0L dyno sheets is how erratic they are. Both sheets are from seperate cars and different shops. They both bounce up and down, where mine is pretty smooth. Can anyone explain that?
-Jerry
Optimal shifting are:
1-2: 6750rpm (rev limited), average power 94hp
2-3: 6420rpm, average power 99hp
3-4: 6330rpm, average power 99.5hp
4-5: 6230rpm, average power 100.1hp
Bruno
I'm thinking of buying one of those two.
and yes, I can confirm on the 3400-4000 'surge' for the 1.8L that Jerry talks about. That's when it gets fun, even for an automatic
actually, you can feel the surge beginning to ramp up right around 3000, and then by 4000 you're in the back of your seat!
-Jerry
Chrysler PT Cruiser
Ford Focus ZX5
Pontiac Vibe
Mazda Protegé5
Suzuki Aerio SX
Toyota Matrix XRS
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/comparisontests/2002/june/200206_comparo_boxes.xml?
Very interesting where they rated the Vibe/Matrix?
-Larry
Bruno
I think it's interesting that they still chose the P5 even with the Matrix's 50 hp advantage.
Just proves our point again... power isn't everthing.
S-Plan pricing is generally a few hundred dollars below the vehicle's invoice price. However, it varies depending on the vehicle.
You used to be able to join the Experimental Aircraft Association and immediately qualify for the S-plan. However, beginning December 1, 2001, the program has changed and you must be a member for a year before qualifying for the S-plan. For those of you planning on buying a Ford Motor Co. vehicle, it may help to join the EAA for $40 per year so that you save on your next purchase or lease. To see the EAA's special partner program with Ford, click here.
-Jerry
Anyway, my question is this -- is this something that diminishes after break-in or do you just have to get used to it? I'm in the market for a small wagon/hatch-back that's fun to drive and around 15K. I really liked the P5 but I'm not sure I could put up with that whining all the time.
Bruno
Bruno
Thanks for the number crunching. I just don't have that kind of patience. (GRIN)
In my mind, as much as I love the P5 (and will probably still buy one, because it'll be about 4-5K less than a Jetta I'd want), there is no question the Jetta is a much quieter ride. I mean, I could barely hear the engine at any point while zooming up a freeway onramp. Likewise at cruising. The AC at 2 makes far more noise than wind, road, or engine. Frankly, I don't know how they do it. It's like, Camry quiet..you wonder, "is this thing on?"
The P5 can't compete with it in terms of sound dampening. But it definitely can on many other levels (seat comfort, reliability, price, and uniqueness being big ones for me).
The Jetta is nice, but was too expensive for me.
Bruno
The Jetta is smaller inside, doesn't have the same handling skill and has boring styling.
Most important of all in my book is the Jetta really isn't much of a value when you look at what little more you get for the big price increase...DON'T FORGET the Jettas we get are born in Mexico.
In my book the only REAL competition for the P5 is the Subi Impreza. You may pay more, but at least you get a bigger engine and 4 wheel drive, albiat with a smaller interior.
Matrix? go drive one they are ok in a straight line. Try some curves and the GM roots come through with the torsen bar rear. Also styling is too close to the Pontiac Aztek.
Just my humble opinion.
Mark
Bruno
:-)
The Jetta price definitely jumps when you load it up with the standard P5 options.
In regards to a VW. Nice cars easier ride than the P5 but if you put the VW 2.0L against the P5 the p5 wins every time in my book. If you want a smoother easier highway cruiser that still handles pretty good the VW is a way to go.