Mazda Protege5

mustang87 · June 2002

yap, my mp5 is nuclear. its definetly made in the hiroshima. checked the VIN number against the decoder on the website. (link was posted about 20 posts back).

about dealers. don't give up on mazda because you encountered 1 bad dealer. my mom wanted a corrolla. the dealer abc we went to, screwed us over. i called our lawyer but he said that he won't be able to do anything about it and told us not to go to dealer xyz because he knew many people who got ripped off there. few days later we went to dealer xyz and to make the story short bought a brand new 2002 rav4 loaded for what dealer abc wanted to sell us 2003 corrolla for. rav4 is based on a corolla but it is still a lot nicer. oh yeah, the sticker on the rav4 was like 23k and we got it for less than 19k.

protege_fan · June 2002

Thanks for the info. I think something is messed with that decoder though. The plants are probably right, but the part where it says "5 for 2.0L, 6 for 2.0L w/ ABS" is wrong. My vin has 5, but I know for sure that I have ABS. Oh well...maybe it was supposed to say "6 for 2.0L w/ side airbags" or something??

jstandefer · June 2002

There shouldn't be any increase in performance using the "manual" mode vs. letting the computer shift for you. Actually, performance is probably just a hair better in Drive. There is a slight lag between the time you hit the "stick" and when the transmission actually shifts. The fully automatic mode will allow shifts at redline. I believe it is fairly hard to do with the manual mode... there is that lag time and the computer may intervene before you hit the rev limiter...

the_big_h · June 2002

I do that on a regular basis in my 'old' auto '00 ES, and now that I've got Mobil 1 into the engine, redline sounds NICE AND SMOOTH

:-D :-D :-D

jstandefer · June 2002

Both the Protege sedan and Protege5 are built in the Hofu plant. Prior to September 2001, the sedans were built in the Ujina plant. The Ujina plant has been closed as part of Mazda's restructuring. There are two Hofu plants. They build nine models including the Protege, Protege5, Tribute, and Atenza (Mazda 6). The number one plant was built in 1982; the number two plant was built in 1993. January 25th of this year, Mazda celebrated its 5-millionth vehicle produced at the plants which was a Familia Sport 20, a suped-up version of the Protege5. Both the Ujina and Hofu plants are located in Hiroshima, which is why it says Hiroshima as the assembly location.

protege_fan · June 2002

Wait a sec here....Hofu is quite a distance from Hiroshima. Not that I don't believe you Jerry, but it seems odd to call a plant the "Hofu plant" and have it located a few hundred (est.) kilometres away in Hiroshima.

Hofu

Ujina by comparison is located very very close to Hiroshima

Ujina

Anyway, I like your explanation and it sounds completely right. Maybe they use the Hiroshima name to distinguish between Hofu I and Hofu II.

th83 · June 2002

According to the people at Protegetech.com, the manual mode will actually let you exceed the redline. They upshifted at the redline and the transmission didn't respond until 6700 rpm. So, with the manumatic, it looks like you have to shift 200 rpm before the redline to get the tranny to shift right at the redline. Interesting...

vocus · June 2002

The Tiptronic feature in my VW does the same thing. It will let you overshoot redline by 200rpm. Maybe that "give" is designed into the computer or something.

maltb · June 2002

It's not like the engine is going to blow if you exceed redline anyway. You just don't want to run the engine beyond redline for extended periods of time. Anyway, you'll probably just run into valve float up there.

Most cars can handle the occasional mis-shift like the 5->4 shift I did yesterday while trying to hit 5->6. The Miata whined like a baby up to 8k, but it bounced right back.

silver_bullet · June 2002

All of these "sport automatic" transmissions, i.e. DC Autostick, VW/Audi Tiptronic, etc. are really just toys. As long as you still have a torque converter, you still have an automatic transmission -- which is fine if that's what you want or need. None of these transmissions will give you the control of a manual with a clutch - they all intervene in the gear shifting process in some way. I have a friend with a new M3 equipped with the SMGII gearbox. This is a true auto-manual, with a computer operated clutch (no clutch pedal). Maybe I'm a fossil, but I still prefer that third pedal

crikey · June 2002

I basically just wanted to know whether the sport automatic mode allows full use of peak horsepower by at least getting between 6000 and 6300 RPM. Since it lets the driver beyond redline, this is good to know. However, the sweet spot would probably be between 6000 and 6300 RPM. That is, assuming of course, that the lag between shifts is instantaneous. Otherwise, one would be better off just using the automatic mode.

tgif888 · June 2002

Purchase my Protege5 yesterday, silver with Sport automatic and leather interior. Invoice is $17000, S-plan price is $16998. And I also use the 2.9% APR financing.

The car is great. Better than the Matrix. (I can hear rattles in the glove box on the Matrix).

Thanks everyone on the board.

jstandefer · June 2002

Isn't there a rev limiter on the automatic cars? In my 5-spd, the rev limiter kicks in as soon as the needle touches the 6,500rpm mark.

In actuality, shifting at redline is best for maximum performance in our vehicles. Remember, the gears act as torque multipliers. Let's say you shift at 5,500rpm in third gear to put the engine at 4,000rpm in fourth. Sure, you've put the engine at it's torque peak (for a brief second anyways), but what about torque to the wheels? Since the Protege's torque curve is so flat, you will never produce nearly as much torque in fourth gear than you can produce in third gear. The same goes for all gears... The lower gear will always produce more torque than is possible in a higher gear. Therefore, to be putting the maximum amount of power to the ground, shift at redline.

Wanna see a Protege torque curve? Injen Technology ran a dyno on my '99 ES sedan before and after they installed their cold air intake. I have the dyno scanned in on my website:

http://www.caliprotegemeet.1hwy.com/mycar.html

Believe it or not, my 1.8L puts more power to the ground than most 2.0L's we have seen dynos for. Over at the ProtegeClub forum, the technical gurus were actually not surprised...

-Jerry

vocus · June 2002

The S-plan price should have been approximately $250 below the dealer invoice. It should have been like 1.5%, not just $2.

bluong1 · June 2002

I'm not sure I agree 100% with you.

"Protege's torque curve is so flat". This is only true for rpm lower than the max-power rpm (6000 rpm). Here is what my math teacher tells me:

- The zero derivative of the power=(rpmxtorque) at 6000 rpm implies that the torque must drop faster than the rpm after 6000 rpm, i.e., drop quite drastically fast. So I believe the torque curve will be flat only until 5000 rpm, but not quite afterward.

- Power must more or less be conserved, i.e., the power at the wheel is about (-20%?) the power at the shaft, more or less uniform through the whole range of engine rpm. As the rpm of the wheel is determined by your current car speed, the maximum power IS maximum torque at the wheel, period.

- The only reason to shift at the red line is the when we shift up, the engine does not drop much bellow the maximum power peak zone.

Bruno

jstandefer · June 2002

Did you look at the dyno chart on my site?

Stock torque at the wheels per 500 rpm:

2,000 rpm -- 95 ft-lbs
2,500 rpm -- 99 ft-lbs
3,000 rpm -- 99 ft-lbs
3,500 rpm -- 104 ft-lbs
4,000 rpm -- 105 ft-lbs - Torque Peak 105 ft-lbs
4,500 rpm -- 103 ft-lbs
5,000 rpm -- 100 ft-lbs
5,500 rpm -- 96 ft-lbs
6,000 rpm -- 90 ft-lbs - HP Peak 102.8 hp
6,400 rpm -- 84 ft-lbs*

*Rev limiter won't allow adequate testing at 6,500rpm.

That's pretty flat for me... You should see a Honda/Acura torque curve. Anyways, a typical front wheel drive 5-spd vehicle will suffer a 15% drivetrain loss to power. Peak torque on the 1.8L is 120 ft-lbs at the crank... dyno shows 105 ft-lbs at the wheels... 12.5% loss on my vehicle.

If you multiply the gear ratios times the torque, you get the transmission output (to get actual output to the ground, you would have to factor the final drive ratio). At redline in 1st gear, 278 ft-lbs is being produced. This is more than any output in second gear. At redline in 2nd gear, 155 ft-lbs is being produced. This more than any output in third gear. And so on and so on... The multiplied torque in any given gear is going to be greater at redline than the multiplied torque at any engine speed in the next higher gear.
If you shift earlier than redline, you are giving up precious power. In many engines out there where the torque curve drops off dramatically, shifting before redline is highly recommended. But, working out the math in our cars, a shift at redline is best.

-Jerry

bluong1 · June 2002

Thanks, I couldn't read the torque curve on your website. I'll crank all these numbers and eventually get back to the topic!

Bruno

dsm6 · June 2002

The new pros all have the 2.0. With more rotating mass from a longer stroke than your 1.8, it should shift some of that high end to lower rpms, so power should fall off more quickly toward redline which stays the same at 6500 rpms, or are you forgetting why you don't like the 2.0 as much as the 1.8? ;-)

shrique · June 2002

I just got an email back from the mazda email addy that was posted earlier (Thanks whoever posted that!) and they are going to send me out a bottle of touchup paint. Apparently they have a fullfilment company that's not doing what it's supposed to.

jstandefer · June 2002

If you click on the thumbnail of the dyno chart, you should get a very large picture. I believe the full size is pretty close to 800 x 600. If you have Windows XP, it may resize it to fit to the visible area of your window. If this is the case, use the "full size" button that appears in the lower right corner. Hope this helps!

-Jerry

bluong1 · June 2002

OK, I'm convinced now. I cranked the numbers. Combining with the gear ratios on Mazda webpage, the integrated power band tells me that the optimal shift point should be even higher than 6500 rpm (possibly 6700-6800, depending how the torque drops after the largest rpm on your data sheet) and at any gear.

BTW, are you sure the torque at 3000 rpm is 99 ftxlb? It should be around 102 to be consistent with the rest.

Bruno

dsm6 · June 2002

Those numbers were for the 1.8. The original discussion was with respect to the new sportshift auto. This feature is new to the 02s. If it is an 02, it has the 2.0, not the 1.8. The 2.0, as pointed out above and in a post in the sedan forum, has a different power curve that drops off more steeply toward redline.

bluong1 · June 2002

I know, I know. I just assumed that the torque curves of both 1.8 and 2.0l engines are correlated well as the rpms at torque peak and power peak are amazingly similar.

If you know where to find a torque curve of the 2.0l engine, I'll be happy to do the same and post the result.

Bruno

jstandefer · June 2002

"BTW, are you sure the torque at 3000 rpm is 99 ftxlb? It should be around 102 to be consistent with the rest."

It really is 99 ft-lbs. On the 1.8L engine, you get a big power surge between 3,400-4,000rpm. When I drove the 2.0L, that's the first thing I noticed... no power surge.

You can try this ProtegeClub thread for two different dyno sheets of the 2.0L without mods. You can see the higher torque at lower rpm, but it does fall a lot steeper past the 5,000rpm mark, just as you predicted.

The torque curve on the 2.0L is actually pretty different than the 1.8L. The 2.0L has high low-end and low high-end torque. The 1.8L has a bit less torque, but it's pretty consistent throughout the rev range. Another thing I noticed with these 2.0L dyno sheets is how erratic they are. Both sheets are from seperate cars and different shops. They both bounce up and down, where mine is pretty smooth. Can anyone explain that?

-Jerry

bluong1 · June 2002

Thanks to Jerry for indicating where to find the torque data of 2.0l engine.

Optimal shifting are:

1-2: 6750rpm (rev limited), average power 94hp
2-3: 6420rpm, average power 99hp
3-4: 6330rpm, average power 99.5hp
4-5: 6230rpm, average power 100.1hp

Bruno

stoli25 · June 2002

Have you ever driven Golf? How is it comparable with Pro5?
I'm thinking of buying one of those two.

the_big_h · June 2002

you really took your time analyzing all these power data, nice work!

and yes, I can confirm on the 3400-4000 'surge' for the 1.8L that Jerry talks about. That's when it gets fun, even for an automatic

actually, you can feel the surge beginning to ramp up right around 3000, and then by 4000 you're in the back of your seat!

jstandefer · June 2002

But, you have to give Bruno a lot of the credit for calculating the optimum shift points for both engines! Thanks Bruno!
-Jerry

protegextwo · June 2002

Boxes, Size Small:

Chrysler PT Cruiser
Ford Focus ZX5
Pontiac Vibe
Mazda Protegé5
Suzuki Aerio SX
Toyota Matrix XRS
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/comparisontests/2002/june/200206_comparo_boxes.xml?

Very interesting where they rated the Vibe/Matrix?
-Larry

bluong1 · June 2002

I did test drive both. Please see the post #1586.

Bruno

Sporin · June 2002

Car & Driver comparo actually. :-)

I think it's interesting that they still chose the P5 even with the Matrix's 50 hp advantage.

Just proves our point again... power isn't everthing.

amonte · June 2002

I'm sorry if this was already covered - but what's S-Plan price?

tgif888 · June 2002

It is a Ford partner's price. Ask your HR department to see if your company is Ford's partner.

jstandefer · June 2002

The S-Plan is a special pricing program mainly for Ford Motor Co. (Ford, Mazda, Mercury, Lincoln, Volvo, Jaguar, Land Rover, etc.) suppliers and partners. The price is set by the manufacturer and is on the vehicle's invoice. The dealer cannot change this price, though he may opt to not sell a vehicle at S-plan pricing. This rarely happens and if it does, it typically happens to a limited vehicle like the Protege MP3 (of which only 1,500 were built).

S-Plan pricing is generally a few hundred dollars below the vehicle's invoice price. However, it varies depending on the vehicle.

You used to be able to join the Experimental Aircraft Association and immediately qualify for the S-plan. However, beginning December 1, 2001, the program has changed and you must be a member for a year before qualifying for the S-plan. For those of you planning on buying a Ford Motor Co. vehicle, it may help to join the EAA for $40 per year so that you save on your next purchase or lease. To see the EAA's special partner program with Ford, click here.

-Jerry

vocus · June 2002

It's funny that you mention the EAA, because I joined back in February 2001 to get a good price on the 2001 Protege I bought. I got it for like $263 below the factory invoice. The dealer was really mad, because I was waiting to sell my car and he couldn't let the car that I wanted go because I had already told them to hold it. (This was back when the 2001s first came out, and were pretty scarce.) But it is definitely a good deal, if you are so inclined.

rlenihan · June 2002

I recently test-drove a P5 5-speed and liked just about everything about (price, looks, handling), but I couldn't get over the noise. The performance was OK but to really get any oomph out of the car I had to really wind it up, which caused the engine to whine loudly and irritatingly. It was kind of a like a high-pitched nasally voice crying "not so haaard!!!" (think Joe Besser of the 3 Stooges). Also, when I took it out onto the highway I noticed a lot of noise at cruising speed (70-75 mph), mostly from the engine, although there was a lot of road noise from the tires and wind noise from (I suppose) the roof rack.

Anyway, my question is this -- is this something that diminishes after break-in or do you just have to get used to it? I'm in the market for a small wagon/hatch-back that's fun to drive and around 15K. I really liked the P5 but I'm not sure I could put up with that whining all the time.

mustang87 · June 2002

the tire noise is due to a low profile tires and soft rubber. remove the roof rack and the wind noise is gone. funny, i don't hear any engine noise on my car even at 80+ mph. btw, you do use stereo, right? so whats there to worry about.

bluong1 · June 2002

Engine: occasionally, I also hear more engine noise between 70-75 mph. Running over 80mph or bellow 60mph will produce less noise. It only happens (again occasionally) at few first miles on the road. I found the car is decently quite after warming up correctly. It could be there is a resonance at that specific rpm. I notice that all the cars I own so far (5) have the some sort of resonance noise, the frequency might change, but they all have it (OK, I never own a Mercedes or Roll Roys). Just test drive another P5 and see if you hear the same or not.

Bruno

dsm6 · June 2002

Thanks for doing the shift point analysis for the 2.0. I see that my suspicions about the differences between it and the 1.8 were correct.

bluong1 · June 2002

you are welcome. Of course you were correct. I'm very curious myself that is why I do this analysis. These torque curves are extremely useful and tell us much more about the engine than just the maximum hp number alone. Too bad that most of car makers don't give out theses curves anymore. The 2.0l engine has a lot of torque at low end, about 10% more torque than the 1.8l up to 5000rpm. However after 6000 rpm, the 1.8l still have a lot of punch where the 2.0l run out of steam. In fact, for most of us, nothing is new about it. The numbers just prove the observation.

Bruno

shrique · June 2002

You know for me that's perfectly fine. I tend to be a low shifter anyway when I'm just winging around town.

Thanks for the number crunching. I just don't have that kind of patience. (GRIN)

ggilliom · June 2002

Well, I drove a friend's new 5-sp Jetta 1.8T today at lunch, and I experienced the turbo surge that's been discussed. It is amazing. (I'm surprised some of the lousy drivers out there can handle it, actually!)

In my mind, as much as I love the P5 (and will probably still buy one, because it'll be about 4-5K less than a Jetta I'd want), there is no question the Jetta is a much quieter ride. I mean, I could barely hear the engine at any point while zooming up a freeway onramp. Likewise at cruising. The AC at 2 makes far more noise than wind, road, or engine. Frankly, I don't know how they do it. It's like, Camry quiet..you wonder, "is this thing on?"

The P5 can't compete with it in terms of sound dampening. But it definitely can on many other levels (seat comfort, reliability, price, and uniqueness being big ones for me).

dsm6 · June 2002

I'd add handling to the list of ways in which it can compete.

The Jetta is nice, but was too expensive for me.

bluong1 · June 2002

what do you mean by "zooming up [the Jetta] a freeway onramp"? YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY *ZOOM* WITHOUT A MAZDA!!! ;-)

Bruno

xeones · June 2002

I don't know about the rest of you, but I love the fact that I don't see a P5 beside me at every stop light and intersection.

The Jetta is smaller inside, doesn't have the same handling skill and has boring styling.

Most important of all in my book is the Jetta really isn't much of a value when you look at what little more you get for the big price increase...DON'T FORGET the Jettas we get are born in Mexico.

In my book the only REAL competition for the P5 is the Subi Impreza. You may pay more, but at least you get a bigger engine and 4 wheel drive, albiat with a smaller interior.

Matrix? go drive one they are ok in a straight line. Try some curves and the GM roots come through with the torsen bar rear. Also styling is too close to the Pontiac Aztek.

Just my humble opinion.

Mark

scozim · June 2002

I was at the dealer today discussing the P5 I want and he threw out an interesting twist that is real tempting. Said if I wanted they could order up a set of the 17" Racing Hart wheels that were on the MP3 and put them on the P5 with some new rubber. While it may make the ride a little rougher it's got some real appeal. Has anyone gone this route?

bluong1 · June 2002

recalibrate the speedometer? with bigger wheels, the handling (and look?) should be better, trading against some small reduction of comfort, fast acceleration, and possibly fuel economy. It's your call.

Bruno

pciskowski · June 2002

These seem to be getting worse as time goes on. I guess that is the price for such a firm ride. Has anyone else had/fixed/located the following? I am putting the general location because I haven't been able to find the actual culprits yet. Ashtray, drivers window, front seat belt anchors (both sides), instrument panel. The ashtry and instrument panel seem to buzz when accelerating in 3rd.

ggilliom · June 2002

I *knew* I'd get in trouble for saying "zoom" in reference to another car...

:-)

The Jetta price definitely jumps when you load it up with the standard P5 options.

shrique · June 2002

Wow that's quite a list. Most of the squeaks and rattles that I had went away quickly or were atributed to things like change and Jewel cases.

In regards to a VW. Nice cars easier ride than the P5 but if you put the VW 2.0L against the P5 the p5 wins every time in my book. If you want a smoother easier highway cruiser that still handles pretty good the VW is a way to go.

Mazda Protege5

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