Mazda Protege5

waynerp · November 2002

my personal opinion: I believe kbb valuates used vehicles to favor dealers. Notice how many dealers' websites have a link to kbb so you can value your trade? Kbb seems to always be very low for trade-in values and high for dealer retail. Compare kbb to Edmunds - the spread for kbb (trade-in to dealer retail) will probably be much wider than at Edmunds. I wonder where kbb gets its funding?

stoli25 · November 2002

Do you know when there is a new/stronger engine coming on P5?

maltb · November 2002

totally re-designed 5 door

bluong1 · November 2002

sorry, it'll probably never come.

Bruno

cdnp5 · November 2002

I'm starting to wonder if spacecommander even owns a p5 because everybody else who owns one of these loves it. My P5 is now 13 months old and has 20,000 miles on it and I don't even drive it to work. I only look forward to another weekend of camping/hiking/biking so that I can drive the P5 for hours to another location. Taking the back roads where the road is twisty and fun only brings a smile to my face (and a white knuckle grip from the passengers as they hang on). Yes it is still able to keep on with freeway traffic without any problems. Most of my gas mileage is right on par with the ratings of this car and I have even beat it on occasions. I can't think of many if any cars that will beat its ratings for gas mileage every day. Remember they test the cars at 60mph not the 75-80 we drive everyday. If you drive this car 55-60 mph you will get better than avg results. Take the back roads and see what it is like to drive without cars around you. Hang on, here is another long sweeping corner.......Hey, where did that Corolla5 go? Oh yeah, had to slow down.

later,
d.

subyaudidude · November 2002

The used car market is particularly bad right now because of all the incentives manufacturers are offering on new cars. The low interest rates and "cash-back" deals on new cars are driving down sales of used cars, so the value of a used car isn't what it used to be.

iamz · November 2002

One more point; If you check out Edmund's "True cost to own", the P5 is on par with it's competitors. Over the 5 year span, everything averages out.

spacecommander · November 2002

I own a P5. I wouldn't waste my time on this message board otherwise. If you notice, my major complaint all along has been poor gas mileage. You are getting the gas mileage that the sticker promised? Congratulations! I am not. Perhaps there is something wrong with my car? I have taken it in to the dealer, but they act like they know nothing about this sort of thing and essentially tell me to get lost. Perhaps it's because the type of gas they sell us here in California? I don't know. Therefore I live with the problem, but enjoy the car otherwise. However, every now and then it gets to me that I spent a ton of money on a car that doesn't deliver what was advertised on the sticker. That's false advertising to me. And since I cannot get my money back, all I can do is go to places like this and vent a little. And believe me...I did a TON of research when trying to decide which car to buy. I bust my butt for my money and want to spend it wisely. The Vibe/Matrix was my first choice, but I couldn't get a good deal at the time so, needing a reliable car, went for the P5. I figured the 25/30 mpg advertised was the bare minimum I could live with. Had I known that I would be getting substantially less, I would not have bought the car. But that's how it goes.

Ted (who's tired of venting on this board and angry that someone insinuated that he's a liar)

maltb · November 2002

I've always found that CA gas robs me of a few MPG. Take a road trip to Oregon and you will notice the difference on the first fill up. At first I was shocked and then I too felt cheated by our Golden State.

dsm6 · November 2002

1) The "advertised" mileage of 25/30 is not Mazda's claim/advertisment/gaurantee, but is instead a government test result for comparison sake only - hence the claim "your mileage may vary"

2) If it is a matter of the particular gas you get in your location, any other car you buy will yeild results below EPA stated figures as well.

Sorry the P5 isn't working out the way you had hoped.

bluong1 · November 2002

that occasionally, few P5s get rather poor mileage, i.e., around 22 as opposed to 29-30 mpg. IMHO, there is something fishy with the consistency in the production of the engine.

Bruno

riopelle · November 2002

seems to be a repeated issue here. I tend to get 24/30, but have gotten as low as 22.

Several owners have brought their P5 in to have the fuel monitor checked. As for me, I think it's because the P5 begs to be driven hard, and leave it at that.

mnkyboy · November 2002

Here are my gas mileage numbers.

Keep in mind, I drive about 95% city...Also, when I got 31.3 MPG, that was the only time I ever drove continuosly on the interstate.

cdnp5 · November 2002

I'm wasn't trying to be mean but it sounded to me like you are really upset that you bought a P5. You still haven't said what kind of mileage numbers you are getting. How bad is it? What kind of driving habits do you have (heavy foot?) It sounds like everyone in CA get worse than normal mileage no matter what kind of car you drive though. Maybe somebody knows of a better dealer in your area that you can take your car for an inspection. Every dealer can be different which is a shame and can ruin that name of a good manufacturer. I do feel great that I can get between 29 and 34 mpg (US) in my car and I do drive 70-80 mph and a record smashing 38 (only once) on the backroads. Keep up your fight and find a good dealer or call Mazda NA to get some help.

d.

cdnp5 · November 2002

Since we are on the topic of mileage, does anybody have a roof box for their P5? How much of a difference does it make when you are on the highway. I've heard stories that a box can reduce your mileage up to 20%, is this true? I'm looking to get one for my car and was wondering.

Thanks,
d.

reitrof · November 2002

Hi cdnp5,

I have a 15 cu ft Sears on mine for a week this summer. The mileage didn't get hot too bad considering there were 4 of us and gear in the box and in the rear. Ended up getting around 27mpg on the highway doing about 70.

Didn't like the position of the box on the roof rack. Sits too far forward almost hanging over the window. I have a soft carrier which I am going to try this xmas and see if that is better.

HTH
Bruce

kauai215 · November 2002

You'll definitely see a reduction in fuel economy.

When we've carried two kayaks on a roof rack, the mileage has dropped 3-4 mpg. In fact, the kayak rack alone with its saddles reduces mileage 2-3 mpg. (We leave the rack on the car for the paddling season.)

The Cd (coefficient of drag)is increased, thus requiring more energy to punch the machine through the air.

Remember that the air resistance (the drag) increases with the square of the speed. In other words, at 60 mph the drag is _four times_ greater than at 30 mph even though the speed only doubled.

(This is probably a good thing, because otherwise we'd all be able to race along at 300 mph!)

Consider, too, that overall mass matters. It takes more energy to move a greater mass than it does to move a lesser mass. Chances are you're going to load up your car with greater mass using your roof box, else why buy it.

Your mileage will decline from the extra weight alone.

It would be interesting to see what mpg figures you record on the highway with just you and the empty roof box on board, as opposed to just you without the roof box. Things become more confusing when you add weight; I might not add as much as you, etc.

The suggestion that one might see a 20% reduction in fuel economy seems quite reasonable when anticipating a fully loaded vehicle complete with a full passenger load, everyone's luggage, heavy coolers, and vacation gear packed on board. And then you start filling up the roof box!

You'd drop from 30 mpg, for example, to 24 mpg (at 20% loss). Actually, I'd think you'd be _lucky_ to get 24 mpg in the example I described!

In fact, as I think of it, you might want to check the max vehicle load rating on your doorjamb sticker to make certain you're not exceeding the safe capacity for the vehicle. A lot of cars these days don't have much reserve capacity beyond a full passenger load. Just a thought.

Also, I'd pump my tires up to the maximum permissible (cold) pressure shown on the side of the tirewall when traveling fully loaded up. And don't forget to do a check on braking distances --- it could prove to be a real eye-opener, one of those white-knuckle moments, to discover just how much longer it will take to slow down with a max loaded vehicle. Best to get an idea of the problem _before_ an emergency arises, right?

(I rarely carry extra passengers, but one day, many years ago, I had two extras in the back seat. I was zipping down one of my favorite twisty bits and braked at my standard braking point for a pleasantly challenging curve. Whoah! Had a bit of a fright, there. Brain fade --- I'd forgotten to allow for the extra passenger weight. Haven't made that mistake since. I acted as though nothing was amiss, of course. But _I_ knew. It's unwise to get into a scrap with the Laws of Physics. Just a friendly reminder. ;-)

A while back I saw that REI had one of those attractive and sleek-looking Thule aero boxes on a good sale. You might want to check them out. Thule has fittings for the P5 rack, as I recall.

bluong1 · November 2002

"Consider, too, that overall mass matters. It takes more energy to move a greater mass than it does to move a lesser mass. Chances are you're going to load up your car with greater mass using your roof box, else why buy it."

True, but this is one time energy to bring the car up to speed. When the car is cruising in the flat terrain, the Cx becomes a dominant factor, and extra weight doesn't cost any energy.

cdnp5 · November 2002

Thanks for all of that information. I guess I will just have to drop the cruising speed a little to adjust for the increase in drag. Also thanks for the tip on REI but sad to say since our dollar isn't very strong against yours right now it wouldn't be much of a deal for me. I've been investigating prices and it looks like our prices are the same or less than yours (no conversion) so after I convert my money I've paid alot more. I think right for me to buy $100 US it would cost me $155 Cdn. Now if you came to Canada to buy stuff you could save a lot of money. Its like every store is having a sale.

cheers,
d.

bluong1 · November 2002

Mazda also sales a roof cargo box. Part # 000-8L-G05, L 55", W 35.2", H 18.2", 13 ft^3.

Bruno

maltb · November 2002

try 0000-8L-G05

bluong1 · November 2002

mnkyboy · November 2002

How do my numbers looks from my chart above?

Please post your comments.

FYI, on 8-8-02, I installed a K&N Drop-in Filter. Didnt seem to help the gas mileage...

bluong1 · November 2002

do you have an automatic or manual tranny? With the manual, I would expect the mpg number around 24mpg for mostly city driving like your. Why the mpg numbers jump up and down between 20-24 mpg in few last tanks? May be you do not fill the gas tank consistently at the same level?

Yes, I also read that K&N filter doesn't help much.

Cheers,

Bruno

taddison · November 2002

Speaking of roof boxes, has anyone here put a ski box on top of a P5, as opposed to a shorter luggage box?

Do they prevent the hatch from opening all the way due to overhang, or can they be mounted far enough forward to avoid this? Are some brands better than others in this regard?

Thanks.

kauai215 · November 2002

"Thanks for all of that information."

You're welcome. :-)

"I guess I will just have to drop the cruising speed a little to adjust for the increase in drag."

Sure, you could do that. Sometimes I fret about my mileage, but then I work out the math, and I usually decide it's not really the problem I thought it was.

If you'll bear with me here, I'll show you how I'd look at this issue.

Assume fuel cost is $1.60/gal. in U.S. dollars. Further, let's assume that without dropping your cruising speed you get a mere 24 mpg with your roof box installed and the car loaded up. Let's figure the fuel cost of driving 1000 miles.

So, 1000/24=41.67 gallons of fuel used, @ $1.60/gal. costs $66.67.

Now, let's assume you could improve your fuel economy by reducing your cruising speed significantly and get 27 mpg, as opposed to 24 mpg.

So, 1000/27=37.01 gallons of fuel used, @ $1.60/gal. costs $59.22.

By reducing your cruising speed significantly you'll save $7.45 for every _one thousand_ miles traveled in my scenario.

You can play around with alternate figures, but I think the reality is that the additional fuel expense on your vacation will prove to be negligible.

I think I'd put on my roof box - and keep my boot right in the throttle, never mind the $7.45, if only to avoid being "trampled" on the highways by the faster cars! ;-)

When I work the figures, the dues for mounting a roof box and keeping up the pace in traffic seem quite reasonable given the additional convenience and flexibility offered by the box.

I'd get a nice roof box and enjoy it. That sleek, silver Thule box would look great on my silver P5.

Ideally, you'll probably want to buy a box that will permit opening the rear hatch fully without interference.

cdnp5 · November 2002

"By reducing your cruising speed significantly you'll save $7.45 for every _one thousand_ miles traveled in my scenario."

When you say it like that I will be still cruising at my regular speeds. I usually do forecasting before trips to see how much time/gas it will take.

"I'd get a nice roof box and enjoy it. That sleek, silver Thule box would look great on my silver P5."

I also drive a silver P5 and have seen those boxes. Thule should do their website like Tirerack where you can try on the box to see what it look like before you buy it. LOL

This weekend the snow tires are going on. I'm sure right after I change my tires over it will warm up again. That's ok, that means another camping trip.

Cheers,
d.

kauai215 · November 2002

I'd be happy to send you a bill, if you'd like. I'm happy to accept the currency of our good friends and neighbors to the north!

Actually, you could repay me by telling me about your snow tire experience.

We put Blizzaks MZ02s on our '99 Civic Si. They were superb in the snow and ice. (Sold now, including the tires. Replaced with the new '02 Si.)

In the dry, ummm... it was 'oribble it was. I think we had three days of actual snow and ice on the roads last year in Wisconsin. The plows and the salt quickly remove it all. Still, if I could find a tire substantially better than the four-season regular tires on the snow, that doesn't compromise dry/wet road handling and responsiveness significantly, I'd be interested. My lady is not happy driving in the snow. (She drives our '02 Civic Si most of the time. Another fun car.)

My guess is: 'taint no such animal. But, I'm still looking.

I'd appreciate your feedback on your snow tires.

Have you driven your P5 with the OEM Dunlops in the snow? If so, how'd you like them? I just got the P5 this past spring, and it has yet to see snow. Light snow is predicted here for tomorrow.

I enjoy snow driving; it's fun. But alone --- not around other drivers. (One of my "Basic Rules to Live By, Behind the Wheel: (1)Don't get involved in the other guy's mistake." It's a good rule, I think, but snow makes that tougher to live up to.)

mnkyboy · November 2002

I have a manual, should have stated that earlier, sorry. Im not sure why the mpg varys like that. Sometimes I rev really high, other times I take it easy. This is my first manual car, so ive been driving for about 11 mths now. Maybe I have to get better?...

bluong1 · November 2002

I have no idea how much experience is needed to save a substantial amount of gas... ;-). To be honest, I personally never reach your best mileage number, so I don't think there is anything to worry about your car. I recall someone who get bad mileage and experienced a rotten egg smell. That's more serious I think. May be you just have a more nervous driving style than mine when cruising inside the city. I'm rather calm and patient when there is a dense traffic and I'm rather good to find a right lane and judging obstacles so that I don't break too much and better using the inertia of the car. Once, I brought my car (not the P5) to a dealer and ask them to check for the brake pads, and the guy look at me and reply: "do you brake at all? They are like new!". However, with the P5, I do a lot of heel-and-toes shifting and I think it costs me a little more brake pad.

Bruno

hardoo · November 2002

You wrote, "However, with the P5, I do a lot of heel-and-toes shifting and I think it costs me a little more brake pad."

I've been driving stick for fourteen years, and while I've often read of heel-toeing (and imagined it), I've never understood it fully. Could you explain?

As an unrelated follow-up question: what are everyone's thoughts about breaking in a new car? I've heard everything from not exceeding 55 mph or 3000 RPMs for the first 1000 miles to the notion that engines no longer need to be broken in at all. Thoughts?

P.J.Heff

bluong1 · November 2002

Patrick,

imagine your are approaching a 90-degree corner while in fourth gear at 50 mph.

In normal technique, you have two ways to down shift:

a) you brake to drop the speed to about 10 mph. The tach will drop, and you push the clutch as you goes around the corner. When you want to accelerate again you move the shifter from fourth to second gear, let out the clutch and the engine away. There is two bad things about this:
- you go around the corner with the clutch pushed in and using only the brake to control the car speed. As the brake applies equal pressure on both wheels, you get better chance to lock the exterior wheel.
- when you realize you can accelerate again, you need to downshift, which will cost you time.

b) You start to slow down a little using the brake then shift from fourth to third gear during the straight line. When you release the clutch, you have to release slowly, otherwise the car will buck and causing wear-and-tear on the clutch, transmission and engine mounts. In order to downshift smoothly, it requires you to plan your braking way before the corner with moderate deceleration. Again it will cost you time.

Heel-and-toe down shifting solves the problem. It allow you to downshift and braking quicker without jerking the engine. You can maintain the engine 90% of the time at the higher RPM, ready to accelerate. And most importantly, you go around the corner with the left foot off the clutch. Here is how it works:

1. Begin braking for the corner with your right foot canted a little to the right, closer to the throttle pedal.

2. Push in the clutch with your left foot.

3. Move the shifter from fourth gear to neutral

4. This is the hard part. With your right foot still applying pressure to the brakes, roll the outside edge of your foot outward and downward to touch the throttle pedal. Use the outside of your right foot to blip the throttle. Blipping the throttle means temporarily raising the engine rpms to match the wheel speed. The exact amount of revs needed is dependent on a variety of factors, but it is usually between 1,000 rpm to 2,000 rpm more than the current engine rpm for a one-gear downshift. If you do it right, you can release the clutch faster without jerking the car (to little throttling) or make it jumping forward (to much throttling)

5. Move the shifter from neutral to third gear.

6. Release the clutch with your left foot

When I start learning this technique, I begin to practice the double-clutching first, i.e., moving the right foot temporary to the brake pedal to a throttle pedal to raise the RPM. After I get better feeling about the amount of RPM to raise, I then focus on braking and throttling in the same time with the same foot.

Cheers,

Bruno

subyaudidude · November 2002

my mother-in-law is looking at a P5. The dealership is tryiing to get her to buy an undercoating and paint sealant package. Normally, I'd say skip it, but she lives up in Edmonton and obviously with the snow and resulting salt I'm thinking a bit that it might not be such a bad thing to have. Anyone else have any thoughts. It'll come w/ a lifetime warranty if she orders it when she orders the car. TIA.

protege_fan · November 2002

In Calgary they don't use salt...they use gravel. If anything, she should get that 3M/stongard stuff or a hood protector.

I didn't get any of the undercoating or paint sealant. IMHO, they are both too much for what they are. A paint sealant? Sounds like wax to me. Undercoating? $5 can from Canadian Tire. And if you look under the Pro, you'll see that there is undercoating that has already been applied.

Just my $.02.

mazdafun · November 2002

The P5 already comes with undercoating from the factory.

The sealant won't work any better than a good application of wax. I'd give it 3-5 months tops.

The 3M clear urethane film works great though. I have it on the headlamps of my 99LX and no stone chips or cracks in them. Wish they'd had the full front-end kit when I bought my Pro, but it wasn't a popular-enough car for them to provide a custom-cut kit. Stongard has headlamp and front-end kits (partial and full) now.

stangelj · November 2002

I'm in Calgary but spent most of my life in Edmonton--very little salt used compared to other parts of the country. Besides, today's cars are such a quality that it's not required. There is also the odd horror story of aftermarket undercoating trapping moisture and causing corrosion.

phoenixmp5 · November 2002

I know this topic has probably been beaten to death, but is anyone running the Infinity Reference series speakers in their P5s? I bought them over a year ago which greatly improved the sound. Great improvement over Junk, is still pretty weak though, so I'm considering either replacing the deck or using low level converters on the factory deck to increase power to the speakers.

The only reason I'm posting this is to find out if anyone is satisfied with any of the above configurations using the Infinity Reference series. Unfortunately, unless I can locate a 4ohm shielded sub, I can't install one because the magnetic field will destroy the computer equipment I carry for work.

I realize sound is a personal preference and I'm just looking for improved clarity and dynamic range.

imapseudonym · November 2002

If they really press the sealant and undercoating stuff at the dealership, sometimes this will work to get them to just drop it:

"Oh, if the car really needs these extras, it must not have been made very well, maybe I should look at the Matrix again..."

audia8q · November 2002

I don't remember if I posted the Mid cycle updates for the P5 yet....so if I already did plz forgive me..

Starting with late nov production the P5 will not have the roof rack as a standard feature and is now an option...but mazda has added a 100 watt subwoofer under the cargo floor and a under cargo floor storage tray. no charge.

We should start to see these vehicles in early Jan. 2003.

Rich

cdnp5 · November 2002

I put the snows on the P5 last year just after Christmas but we had the same problem (or good thing) as you did and didn't receive much snow. I purchase a set of Nordic Ice (or something like that) from Canadian Tire for 25% off. They are made by Michellin for Cdn Tire and their tread pattern is very similar to their snow tires (Alpine?) or the Pirelli 210. I think we had two or three helpings of snow and then they all melted about one week after it came down. I would find the streets that were not plowed yet to get a good idea of what it would be like in snow. I found the traction was great! I could really toss the car around and it would just come right back into line. Stopping and starting improved greatly but as everything, there are still limits. In the dry the car would feel slower to turn (quick turns that is) and feel a little sloppier than normal (by P5 standards that is). I'm sure this is because of the softer/larger sidewalls. In the wet it was about the same. I had one drive down the freeeway in very heavy rains and I felt very secure at speeds up to 85mph (some of those trucks just don't slow down and you have to get past them). Most people use the Michellin winter tires on their cars and I've heard very good things about them. They have two similar tires but the upgraded one (Arctic Alpine or the other one) is suppose to be a sportier version of the first which might give you what you are looking for. Try going to the snow/ice tire section of Edmunds, this is where I saw the feedback. I got caught on the highway in a early snow storm about three weeks ago with the D5000's still on the car and it wasn't much fun. I could spin the tires from 1500 rpm in third gear with ease. I took my time and made it home ok but it made a 2 hours trip become 3+ hours. I see some people drive with them on all winter but why would you want want to. If it only snowed once in the winter it was still worth putting the snow tires on for. Hopefully that will help you.
I agree that driving in the snow is fun and even more fun with snow tires and I love being able to start/stop/corner better than the SUV's. Four wheels spinning without traction gets you nowhere.

cheers,
d.

bluong1 · November 2002

I wonder how they do that. That's a good thing. However, I think the stock speakers lack clarity rather than low frequency spectrum. Thanks Rich.

Bruno

mnkyboy · November 2002

That sounds a little far fetched. Do you have any documentation on this? Where will the spare tire go if you put a subwoofer and storage box in the cargo area?

bluong1 · November 2002

the spare tire must go to the roof. ... but wait, they also remove the rack, oh well, I give up...

audia8q · November 2002

as a mazda dealer I have all the documentation, just came over yesterday.

mnkyboy · November 2002

I didnt say you were lying, I just sayed it sounded pretty crazy, far fetched. Do you know where the spare tire will go? Can you please post this documentation? Thanks.

audia8q · November 2002

wouldnt it just be easier to wait and look at the car and see it for yourself?

mazdafun · November 2002

Is it the rubber mat with the side walls that goes on top of the cargo floor?

maltb · November 2002

You are thinking that it is in the spare tire well when I think it is on the side of the trunk.

bluong1 · November 2002

Yes. With an uneven surface to keep things out of freely moving, and you can clean it with soap.

taddison · November 2002

The addition of a subwoofer and some under-floor storage is great - most other wagons have a storage area here (including the Matrix/Vibe, I think), so this helps them compete, and better sound is always a plus.

I too will be interested to see how they have implemented it, as there is currently no room for anything under the cargo floor. Perhaps they dropped the metal floor down a few inches, though I don't know if there is space underneath to do that.

I've also heard of a subwoofer (can't remember which vehicle) that actually sits in the well in the middle of the spare tire...

It's interesting how they seem to update the P5 mid-cycle (i.e. not on a U.S. model year boundary). I would guess that this is because the major market for this vehicle is outside the U.S. where updating the model year number six months before the actual end of the year isn't considered important...

Mazda Protege5

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