Upcoming Wagons & Crossovers

revka · September 2003

To everyone - Just a reminder that if you don't own the photo, we ask that you please just post a hyper-link to the photo, instead of embedding it directly into the message.

Please note: Our Town Hall Member Agreement policy forbids postings that might "infringe in any manner on the copyright, trademark or intellectual property rights of any person or other entity." Feel free to email me (revka@edmunds.com) if you have any further questions/comments regarding this matter; please do not address this with me here.

And now, back to the subject of the Upcoming Wagon and Crossovers. Thanks! ;-)

Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards

maxx4me · September 2003

I'll believe it when I see it. Honda already makes an Accord Wagon in Japan, which they will NEVER send to the US because it will cut into their enormous profits made on their small SUVs. I would think the same logic would apply to a pickup truck, no?

odman · September 2003

Hey Maxx:
Accord wagons never really did that well in North America so it's no surprise that HMC is trying to have CR-V's and Odyssey's take care of that market (I'd love a European Accord Tourer!). The truck argument is a bit different -- America is unique in the world (apart from Thailand) for loving the idea of an open bed vehicle. Honda has missed out on this, and has seen both Toyota and Nissan capture additional sales, without sacrificing their SUV sales, by catering to that market.

Honda's truck won't be a real, body-on-frame style truck, but it probably doesn't need to be for the type of buyer who will want a Honda truck. I don't think it will be high volume, but it will have appeal, and from HMC's perspective, it beats handing the truck sale to Toyota or Nissan.

gmalltheway · September 2003

would this mean Honda might have to come out with a V8??? I wouldn't want even a Honda V6 in something that looks that big... For example the Base model Chevy Silverado with a 4.3L V6, talk about slow!!!

qbrozen · September 2003

The Pilot is over 4400 lbs. and gets along quite well with the current v6 and 5-speed auto. As a matter of fact, its quicker than several v8 trucks I could name.

gmalltheway · September 2003

the "truck" by Honda could never really compete with Silverado/F-150/Ram/EVEN Tundra without 4wd and good towing compacity and neither of those will come without a V8 and more low end torque.

robr2 · September 2003

I don't think the Honda truck has any aspiration of replacing the F150, Silverado, Ram, et all as a heavy hauling truck. AFAIK, the Honda truck will be offered in a full 4 door only with Pilot underpinnings - 6 cylinder only although Honda supposedly has access to GM V-8's as part of it's V-6 supply contract.

It will probably target the traditional Honda buyer who now leaves the fold when the need for a truck arises. They want the Honda ride and quality with pickup truck utility without having to pay for poor gas mileage and rough ride everyday. IMHO, it will target my family who wants the 4 door utility for family hauling but needs to haul plants, mulch, and the occasional bathtub. The AWD really isn't a required feature for us but I presume that's the only way it'll be offered.

Honda recognizes that it's customers go elsewhere for certain vehicles. That's why it created the current Odyssey, CRV, and Pilot.

gmalltheway · September 2003

I guess you havn't riden in a Silverado lately... well i have and it's far from a Rough Ride, and i've heard many things about the New f-150 and how it has a "car-like" ride.

robr2 · September 2003

You are right - the 03 GMC I recently drove had a better ride than the trucks I usually drive:

an 89 F150
an 88 Dodge Ram 50
a 98 Toyota Tacoma.

I guess what I meant is that the Honda truck will probably handle close to the vehicle it is based on - basically the Accord and it won't have to contend with carrying around a frame and transfer case. It will be a more of a trucklet. It will take some sales away from the big 3 by keeping current Honda owners but not enough to make a difference. Those guys need to watch out for Nissan and Toyota.

I'd be more inclined to drive this trucklet than a real truck in my everyday commuting life.

xplorx4 · September 2003

My guess is that the Honda truck, in addition to providing a more carlike ride, will also have very good fuel economy and low emissions. This new vehicle will basically compete with smaller vehicles like the Frontier CrewCab, the Subaru Baja, and the Tacoma 4dr. It will be interesting to see how the vehicle is classified; trucks do not have to conform to the same safety standards as cars.

ateixeira · September 2003

I agree with robr2, in that the Pilot Crew Cab won't try to compete with GM. Honda has an existing customer base of about 6 trillion customers, plus or minus a few, but you get the point.

The Pilot cannot tow without the owner adding a power steering cooler and a tranny cooler. Even then, IIRC capacity is 3500 lbs. Maybe they'll make those two coolers standard on the Crew Cab, but I doubt they'll go much beyond that.

Sales volumes won't be huge, but if they use the existing Pilot for most of it, it won't cost them much, and they could build it side by side.

It'll be a niche vehicle, though, not a high volume segment buster.

-juice

revka · September 2003

"Moving a bit beyond the aloof socialite market, and further into the family segment, Jaguar introduces its first ever station wagon, the X-Type Estate."

Read the full story here. Also, come share your thoughts in our new 2004 Jaguar X-Type Estate discussion.

Thanks for your comments! ;-)

Revka
Host of Hatchbacks & Wagons

qbrozen · September 2003

I mourn the death of jaguar.

yerth10 · September 2003

Excellent

Chevy Malibu-Maxx does have rear seat inclining facility.
Does Jaguar have it. A luxury vehicle is supposed to provide
comfort for all 5 passengers. If it does, then it will give
a serious challenge to luxury SUV's and sedans.

nwng · September 2003

just send us the mondeo and mondeo wagon

ateixeira · September 2003

I dunno, I like it. AWD, plenty of cargo space, more efficient than an SUV would be.

I'm not sure reliability is there yet, but it's cute to this wagon fan.

-juice

revka · September 2003

Speaking of vehicles aboard that you'd like to see here, come join us in this new discussion:

Wagons abroad that I wish were here!

I look forward to seeing you there! ;-)

Revka
Host of Hatchbacks & Wagons

wheelz4 · October 2003

Posted this in the Magnum forum as well.....what's up with these cars? (or maybe I should say, what's down!) With the trend to taller cars and higher hip points, why Chrysler would introduce a "chopped" wagon & sedan is beyond me. Either the seats must be positioned right on the floor, or you have to recline them like the rice racers do....this thing looks like it has zero headroom....the driving position must be akin to sitting in a bathtub. Here's one of the first production pics....check it out yourself.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/images/gallery/7371_image.JPG

ateixeira · October 2003

I think it's mostly visual, due to a high beltline.

Rear headroom looks tight, though.

-juice

herzogtum71 · October 2003

Wheelz4, I went to your picture link and actually like the look. But the picture doesn't identify the vehicle, and the previous page of posts didn't seem to make mention of it either.

wheelz4 · October 2003

......sedan version will be the Chrysler 300C.
To each his own, I guess.

herzogtum71 · October 2003

It sounds like the Magnum will be marketed as a muscle car for men and available only with V8. Not exactly what I'm after.

ateixeira · October 2003

I'd like to see a lighter, sportier Pacifica. V6 would be fine.

-juice

wheelz4 · October 2003

Said to be debuting at Detroit's Auto show, a new Small Crossover concept from Nissan. I would think the production version will look more along the lines of the C-Note concept or last years Evalia and Almera concepts. This sketch reminds me a bit of the Kia Slice 6 passenger crossover concept from last year. Priced right (i.e. well below the Quest), it could be high on my wish list.
http://www.autoindex.org/news.plt?no=613#

ateixeira · October 2003

I don't like it. There are hardly windows on that thing. The wheels are seriously 4 times bigger than the windows!

20" rims, so 5" windows?

-juice

wheelz4 · October 2003

....where they tend to over-exagerate wheels, tires and other features. I've seen some sketch drawings of Honda and Mazda models that look nothing like the real concepts/production models when they come out. Go to www.mazda.ca for example, click on Vehicles, Mazda3, Fun Stuff and then "gallery" to see sketches of the Mazda3 vs. the real thing. (the photos are macromedia flash so I can't give you a direct link). I think you'll see what I mean.
(BTW, the "greenhouse" doesn't look much different than the new Dodge "headroom-impared" Magnum)

ateixeira · October 2003

Yeah, good point. Concepts are also exaggerated compared to production vehicles.

Even so, the basic shape looks like a door stop. Too dust-buster "Lumina APV" and not enough Murano-type style.

-juice

artdecho · October 2003

I guess we'll just have to wait for the Detroit show. It may look closer to this:http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshows/articles/92552/page011- .html

or the future Almera concept I can't seem to find a reference too.......may be back earlier in this topic.

wheelz4 · November 2003

Popular Mechanics (latest issue) is reporting that we will get a version of the Toyota Corolla Verso4 in 2006 to slot in between the Matrix and the Rav-4, as Toyota perceives there is a hole in their lineup there. They're (PM) showing a Corolla Verso with some RAV-4 styling touches grafted on. While I do believe there ARE some holes in Toyota's lineup (say, between the Matrix and the Sienna, which could be filled by the Wish or Avensis Verso), there's very little wiggle room between the Matrix and RAV-4, unless they're going to grow the next version of the Rav-4. And the Corolla Verso is really just a Japanese version of the Matrix anyway....ie. a somewhat tall 5 passenger hatch/wagon.........unless the 2006 version to be called the Verso4 would be a 6 seater to compete with Nissan's "Small Crossover" concept.....then it might make sense.

odman · November 2003

Automotive News reported that Canadians will be receiving the Chevrolet Vivant, a derivative of the Daewoo Tacuma/Rezzo. It's already being sold under that moniker in other markets. It will be the third model (after Epica and Optra) that Chevrolet is selling in Canada and not the US.
Lucky us.

http://www.wheels24.co.za/Wheels24/NewModels/0,,1369-1374_1427680- ,00.html

beebee13 · February 2004

Are these available now??? Are these future cars or something that I've missed altogether???
I am new to Mazda, and checking them out...
thanks,
Bee

mazdafun · March 2004

Basically a high-end version of the Demio/Mazda2, it should be here in NA next year. I think they've gotten enough positive response that they're going to do it. I hope so. I find it very promising.

wheelz4 · March 2004

Check out this link for the Mazda Flexa "concept"
which is, in reality, the new Mazda4 (Premacy AND MPV replacement overseas).
http://www.autoweek.nl/newsdisp.php?cache=no&ID=2293
I hope Mazda sees the light and brings this to Canada, anyway...where a compact van/sportwagon would be really appreciated. Then they can base the next MPV on the next Freestar platform (which will actually use the Mazda6 platform) and bring it in line with the Odysseys and Siennas of the world for those who like their minivans "maxi".
The 4 would be perfect for us, however, able to handle 6 (or maybe 7 in the production version) occasionaly, but really comfortable for 4, with adequate power and great fuel economy. Styling is awesome as well.

ateixeira · March 2004

I like every view except the rear. Too much sheet metal back there. Reminds me of the Lumina APV.

-juice

wheelz4 · March 2004

it's a little "hippo-like" in the rear but they may add some trim or contour the rear bumper differently in the production version. There's a great write up and tons of pix at the Mazda Enthusiast's "3Z" site......you may be familiar with it, Juice, since you have a Miata and used to have a 626.....under Edmund's rules, I can't supply a link or mention it by it's proper name.

stickguy · March 2004

they should definitely bring that baby over hear. Could be perfect for a small family, and might even be "cool" enough to get some folks out of an SUV.

ateixeira · March 2004

Actually no, but that's OK. I have a good Miata resource when I need it, and can barely keep up here at Edmunds as it is!

-juice

Kirstie_H · March 2004

A journalist is hoping to interview consumers who recently bought pre-owned crossover vehicles (such as the Acura MDX, Audi quattro, Ford Escape, Hyundai Santa Fe, Subaru Baja, Toyota RAV4, Volvo XC70, etc). Why did you go for a cross-over? Which one? How does it suit your tastes, lifestyle and budget?
Please respond to newswiz@earthlink.net and/or jfallon@edmunds.com by Friday, March 5 with your name, daytime contact information and some information about your vehicle.
Thanks!
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com

moontom · April 2004

I'm in the early stages of shopping for a wagon or small ute (shortlist is Ford Focus ZX5, Matrix, Rav4, Vibe, Mazda3,opinions on all are welcome) and wanted to share something astounding I learned in my first day at dealers. I'd emailed Pontiac to see if the "refreshed" 05 Vibe would have side curtain airbags: the email customer service response said NO. the local dealer confirmed this. went to Toyota to drive a Matrix, the salesman there had just returned from a class on the '05 Matrix and he said that YES, in fact, Toyota was making side curtains an option on the '05. Amazing. I know there's some debate between these two vehicles, but in my mind there isn't anymore. how GM can possibly think it's better to not offer this safety device is beyond me.....

ateixeira · April 2004

Well, if that's important to you, the only small SUVs in that price range that offer head protection are the Saturn Vue and the Subaru Forester.

On Vue it's optional, curtain air bags, that is.

On Forester, it gets standard side head/chest protection air bags, but for the front passenger only. Still, with that setup it managed the best IIHS side impact score ever obtained, plus 5/5 stars from NHTSA on side impacts (front also got 5/5). IIHS front offset Best Pick, too. Perfect scores. Even the bumpers get a Good rating.

So if you're shopping safety, try a Forester X, about $19k for starters street price. AWD and ABS are also standard on every model.

-juice

joey2brix · April 2004

Escape and Rav4. I think it might take longer to get SAC on smaller cars will less headroom.

oldntired1950 · April 2004

For my money, the Malibu Maxx beats all of the vehicles you mentioned. My Maxx LT has standard side curtain airbags, leather seating, seat heaters in front, and a storage area that is more versatile than anything I've seen. The back seats move about 7" fore and aft and recline and with the 3 position back shelf, storage is great. Mileage has been exceptional, more than doubling the numbers I was getting on my Jeep Liberty. JMHO, but I find the Maxx to be hard to beat.

ateixeira · April 2004

That's right, Toyota just added those. You sure the Escape's aren't just side chest protection? Maybe that's a new feature.

-juice

nedc2 · April 2004

They're what Ford calls a "Safety Canopy System"; the airbags cover the glass portion of the side windows and deploy from the headliner in side impacts and rollovers to prevent ejections, glass injuries, etc. they also remain inflated for an extended time.

maxx4me · April 2004

moontom: you were told incorrectly. Here's the correct info on the '05 Vibe from Pontiac's home page:

Additional features on the '05 Vibe include:

Available "Moon & Tunes" package with integrated sub-woofer
Available StabiliTrak vehicle stability enhancement system
Available leather seating
New fabric patterns in Slate and Graphite colors
Standard passive suppression advanced air bag system on passenger side
Available side curtain air bag system coupled with side thorax air bags (in seat)
Available programmable automatic door locks (available with automatic transmission and power package)
Tire pressure monitor standard on GT and AWD models
Available OnStar (with one-year Safe & Sound services)

ateixeira · April 2004

Good for them, then. The interior is supposedly improved also, right? Plus the base engine is the 2.3l now. They should have used the PZEV version from the Focus, though.

-juice

trend39 · June 2004

Greetings. I am not a car expert but a general consumer with an eye for detail, value, quality
and excellent gas millage.

I started looking at vehicles two days ago and have been absorbed reading review after review.
I like the SUV's but will not tolerate the low miles/gal. There are some smaller vehicles, but I'm over 6 feet tall and that limits me. I'm also single and am tired of the plain looks of Accords and Camery's. I'll use to love them but now I consider them fuddy duddy compared to what the Y-generation has turned some of us older folks wanting the youth look too. I want utility for trips to the mountains. A few years ago I was a fan of the Suburu Outback lifestyle approach. A friend bought one and it was a gas guzzler.

So you can see where a cross-over appeals to a consumer like me. Price has to have a ceiling of $19k and that includes the popular options.

My research found a few vehicles:
Ford Focus 5 door: xlnt little car, xlnt reviews by everyone one. As I read about it, I came across Ford's venture with Mazda and SAAB to make
the Mazda3 which is a super enhanced Ford Focus.
I read the few reviews and was ready to buy one immediately. The Mazda3 is climbing in recognition and sells. I sat in the Focus and the Mazda and was super impressed with the differences at basically the same price. Mazda3 is an amazing vehicle with many luxuries that come standard. I consider the 5 door close to a "cross-over".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Mazda3 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayPage.action?pageParameter=- Mazda3c&sectionParameter=

http://www.newcars.com/nctd.php?nctd_id=537&page=0

http://www.theautochannel.com/N/F/news/2004/05/13/194539.html?%7B- LF%7D

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/mazda/3/100364240/roadtestarticle- .html?articleId=101737&editorialpage=page003

*** http://mazda3forums.com/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=226c4febdf280f7- 495e6efb022fc844e

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Today I ventured to Toyota and Pontiac to check out the differences between the Matrix and Vibe.
Right off I liked the agressively fun body style
of the Vibe. The Toyota person most people end up buying the Vibe and its visually evident why.

Sitting in them both was a pleasure. Huge head room. Cockpit like "in control" front seats.
Large cargo and xlnt knee clearance and head room for back seaters. And excellent fuel economy.
I love it !

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Mt gripes:

Cross-overs need more HP and torque at lower rpm's. The Ford focus can tow 1000 lbs. The Matrix/Vibe 1500 lbs and the Mazda 3, although with the highest of the others is not rated for towing. Very big dissapointment because this
vehicle is a no brainer strong buy recommend.

What is the use of a cross-over if it can't tow effectively? That is the only thing that is missing and needs to be implemented. I need towing ability for pulling motor cycle trailor, or a tent trailor or a U-haul Trailor up hills.
Forester can do it but my head touches the ceiling.

I wish the Mazda3 with its higher torque and horsepower could tow, and I wish the Matrix / Vibe
had more of each without haxing to add the costly converter that doesn't match perfectly with the gear ratios.

**************

The perfect cross-over is not there yet, but close.

trend39 · June 2004

I just found this and oh am I excited !

Weights & Capacities MAZDA MAZDA3 NEO

Towing capacity - with brakes (kg) 900
Towing capacity - without brakes (kg) 500

http://www.carsales.com.au/pls/carsales/!cs_content.new_specs?vehicle_code=20040115.16:43:31&sort_type=&current_rec=2&make_name=MAZDA&model_name=MAZDA3

ateixeira · June 2004

Nope - those capacities are in Australia, for the Australian models, which might use different springs, shocks, and tires, all affecting the payload and tow capacities.

I'm not sure that the US version is rated to tow at all, but check into it.

What are you planning on towing? If it's a small utility trailer, under 1000 lbs, most likely anything will pull it.

But honestly, have you ever watched a FWD vehicle pull a jet ski up a wet ramp? It ain't pretty. Remember, weight shifts to the rear tires, which get no power.

A lot of the cars you're shopping are, in my opinion, basically hatchbacks. At least the Vibe and Matrix offer AWD, but only with 123hp. That's not gonna do so well hauling a trailer.

Expand your list to include the Subaru Outback Sport (not the big Outback), you get AWD and 165hp. That will do much, much better pulling your jet ski up the ramp. Maybe even a matching pair of jet skis. And AWD means no ugly tire spin noises. 2005s are supposed to get better mileage, the heavier Forester gets 23/30 now, for instance.

I think you can get AWD in a Suzuki Aerio, also. Those had 140hp and IIRC were getting a power boost this year.

Other options? Try a small SUV, like the Honda CR-V, Toyota RAV4, or Subaru Forester. You can get basic models of those for about $19k. All have engines 2.4l or bigger and AWD as options.

The Honda gets 21/25, the Toyota varies but some models get up to 28mpg, and the Subie now gets 23/30 (2005 models), so all are fairly efficient.

Good luck.

-juice

ewmavm · July 2004

I sold my chevy pickup truck and have only a 93 T-Bird which I intend to keep as it has been a great car for us but we need something that has hauling capacity for fairly large objects,gets great gas mileage, looks good (not clunky) not too big, not too small and hope to keep the price under $25,000.
Could be a smaller SUV or a wagon. Oh yes,
and has ample power to take on the hills.

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