Upcoming Wagons & Crossovers

pocahontas · March 2001

Read about it here: 2003 Toyota Matrix. What do you think?

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rsholland · March 2001

Sort of a Rav4 on steriods. Interesting concept. I hope Subaru is looking closely at it. They're supposedly coming out with a new Forester in 2003, with a rumored higher-performance engine.

Bob

bgkanne · March 2001

The Matrix and a Pontiac sibling called the Vibe (I believe) will be out this year and are both being manufactured at the NUMMI plant in Fremont, California. I live/work not far from the plant and hope to take a tour of it. I think both of these vehicles will sell well, particularly with the high gas prices we have here, currently $1.70 a gallon and up in this area.

pocahontas · March 2001

For more information, join our Mazda 5-Door Sport discussion. This discussion is linked to both the Hatchbacks and Station Wagons Message Boards.

Thanks for your participation.

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pocahontas · March 2001

Here's a direct link to our new Lexus IS 300 SportCross discussion.

Thanks for your comments. ;-)

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pocahontas · March 2001

For more information, check out our new Mercedes-Benz C320 Wagon discussion. Happy Motoring!

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dohc32v · April 2001

The gas crunch is almost upon us, the popularity of Station Wagons is back, people are feed up with truck like SUV's and associated high prices and we are in the midst of an economic slow down. What's my point, simple, why doesn't Ford take a bold step and reintroduce a full sized Crown Victoria Station Wagon? It shouldn't involve that much additional engineering to adapt a square box on the back of the current Crown Vic platform and certainly the tooling costs wouldn't be that great. I know there are a lot of people out there, wishing someone would make a full sized American Wagon again, I being one of them. (I'm still hanging onto my 91 Mercury GM Station Wagon, that has 172K miles on it and I'm holding my breath waiting for a new full size wagon to be introduced.) Come on Ford, for Heavans sake take a chance. My guess is you will be totally surprised by the acceptance of the idea by the folks feed up and tired of SUV's. I want a car based pickup truck, not a pickup truck based car. Hell, the Taxi cab industry would pay back the develop costs for the vehicle, the first year it would be in production to say nothing of the other service industries in the country. Damn, I want a new full sized American Station Wagon. As an added incentive, Ford is the only company that has a platform and drive line configuration right now that can be easily converted into a full sized wagon. So they have a lock on the market! Come on Ford, do it and I can assure you I will be one of your first customers. I can also assure you, there will be a substantial line behind me also.

pocahontas · April 2001

The Pontiac Vibe is the twin of the Toyota Matrix. Read more information here. Also, please join us in our Pontiac Vibe discussion.

Thank for your comments! ;-)

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dohc32v · April 2001

Might be ok for hauling a sack of 50lb dog food back from the store, but what are you going to do with a 4X8 foot sheet of plywood? This is the problem with all the Station Wagons on the market today, they are all half size offerings. If you can't stick a 4X8 sheet of plywood in it and close the read door, it isn't a Station Wagon in my opinion. Call it a sports wagon or a dash wagon or what ever, I have no use for one. Ford give me a full sized wagon again ~ PLEASE!

bill_1 · April 2001

Well personally I think it might be a little unreasonable to expect many of the new cars to carry plywood with the rear hatch closed... but then most people buy cars for what they need to do with them 95% of the time. If you are going to be carrying plywood more than once or twice a year (You can always carry it with the hatch open and the plywood tied in.. it should work ok in most of these vehicles... I remember fitting 4x8 panelling in 1980 Subaru) then perhaps you should consider pickup truck? As it is something like a decent sized hatchback or "sport wagon" would cover the vast majority of needs of most drivers.

trifivenomad · April 2001

a new full-size Chevy Impala station wagon with rear wheel drive and an LS-1 motor. How do I convince GM to build it?

My '96 Caprice Classic sedan still runs, and looks, like new. Can't Chevrolet take the old tools and dies out of storage a build a new rwd wagon? You don't think they scrapped everything when they closed down production at the Arlington, TX plant?

How much money can we possibly be talking about to retool for a new big sedan/wagon?

GM spent $5 billion to create the Saturn division from scratch and I've heard they also spent $5 billion for the new pickup/tahoe/suburban/yukon/whatever. But, GM has 5 decades of experience building the car I want to buy.

Why can I figure out something so obvious; GM needs a new rwd big car, yet GM can't reach the same conclusion.

I know what would be cool; an all-wheel-drive Impala wagon or maybe an all-wheel-drive Pontiac Safari wagon!

dohc32v · April 2001

At this point, frankly I don't care who builds a full size wagon, I'll consider buying it. For reasons of preferring American Iron, I would like it to be Ford or GM, but I would strongly consider a full sized Japanese offering. The RX~300 is an absolute joke. I could haul more in the trunk of a Crown Victoria sedan than you could stuff in the back of an RX~300. That damn thing is nothing but a high classed "Fashion Statement". I looked at Mercedes new mid sized wagon. What a damn joke and it was $58K, as I recall. Good grief, Ford could knock out a full sized wagon on that stretched platform they plan to start building for the Taxi industry next year. If they could market a full sized Crown Vic Wagon in the $28 to $30K range, I'll bet they couldn't build them fast enough to keep up with the demand.

pocahontas · April 2001

Within 10 years, new vehicles will probably have diesal in their fuel tanks, and spark plugs may soon be "museum pieces"... according to this article from Edmunds.com's News: Why diesel is the torque of the future. What do you think?

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hicaira · April 2001

I think the Daily Telegraph correspondent missed the mark a bit - probably due to some underlying anti-Americanism .

Anyway, the real reason that diesels are not more available here in the states is due to the emissions. While cleaner in some respects (CO and CO2 for instance) diesels are MUCH dirtier in others (particulate matter and, if I recall correctly NO). The latter pollutants are both more visible and stink much more than modern gas emissions.

As to the overall jist though - that in ten years diesels will be the most common engine - there may be some truth to that. If, in fact, the Bush Admin leaves in place the current goals to reduce the sulpher content in diesel by 95%, this will eliminate the most noxious fumes and unburned particulates in current diesel emissions. That, combined with more refined diesel powerplants (quieter, faster starting) will create a demand for cars that offer 90% of the off-line performance of a typical gas engine with 30-50% better fuel economy. The author is correct when he says that diesels are as quick as any gas car once you are going but their torquey design will be better appreciated in the larger cars with 4000 lb + curb weights. SUV's being the prime candidate. Smaller cars will probably be better off with hybreds.

HiC

pocahontas · April 2001

Thanks for your insights on the subject.... ;-)

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pocahontas · April 2001

"Kia will offer the lowest-priced station wagon in the world when the 2002 Rio Wagon goes on sale in the summer of 2001." Read the complete story here: 2002 Kia Rio Wagon. Also, join us in our new 2002 Kia Rio Wagon discussion.

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pocahontas · May 2001

The 2001 Mazda Premacy is currently sold in Europe and Japan. Although there are currently no plans to market this vehicle in the USA, Mazda brought it to the 2001 Chicago Auto Show to gauge consumer reaction....

Read more about the Mazda Premacy here. Any opinions? ;-)

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george5 · May 2001

I'd also go for an Impala Wagon.

What's with the SMALL wagon prototypes that car companies are designing these days? They need to start designing FULL size wagons! People buy wagons for the extra room a wagon provides. FULL size wagons are what people want, not tiny wagons. The full size wagon that I would want to buy would have a front bench seat and a third row seat facing the rear, and it would be bigger than the Saturn LS Wagon that we now have on the market. Anybody else agree with me?

beth234 · May 2001

I agree with George. We could use a few more full-size wagons out there. A good amount of the eurowagons and such are pretty small for us (A4, etc.)

dohc32v · May 2001

The reason we only have pint sized wagons available to us is the Europeans and Japanese are developing vehicles for their markets. If you have been to Europe and/or Japan you will recognize that their roads, streets and parking accommodations are not designed for full sized American cars. Secondly Detroit has put their total focus upon SUV's because of the Government CAFE requirements and they are exempt from this if they build and market SUV's. A production standard sized Station Wagon, like a Crown Victoria, would come under the passenger car CAFE requirements. Hell Ford could gear up and start producing a Crown Victoria Station Wagon with a minimum of engineeing and tooling costs, but what would they gain from it. Loss of SUV sales and penalities from the Government for reducing their CAFE figure. So their is no incentive for Detroit to produce a Station Wagon. I personally would get in line to buy a full sized Station Wagon, if someone would produce one. I'm making do with the last big wagon that Ford produced in 1991. At 172,000 miles I will probably have to replace the engine one of these days, if they don't offer a new wagon on the market. You can blame Uncle Sam again for sticking his nose into the Automobile design business, for the loss of our beloved full sized wagons. So what do we have now, huge behemoth SUV's, that get 10 or 12 miles to the gallon and represent a serious safety hazard to all of us that drive sensibly sized vehicles. Another triumph by our Washington Bureaucrats!

tatu1 · May 2001

The exemption for SUV's is a farce, a loophole that should be closed. Don't blame the government for trying to enforce CAFE requirements, blame the automakers for exploiting this loophole and making our energy crisis worse and our roads less safe.

dohc32v · May 2001

>>>>>Don't blame the government <<<<<<<< (My eye)

What you have witnessed is the Government sticking their nose into something they know nothing about, doing a botched up job of trying to legislate a policy no one wants to support and the free enterprise system and the market place thumbing their nose at the bureaucrats. Makes about as much sense as the California legislature passing a bill that 2% of all vehicles sold in California in 2002 will be zero emission vehicles. The chances of that happening are about the same as our colonizing Mars in the next ten years. Let the market place dictate to Detroit what it wants. If gas prices rise to $3.00 a gallon, you can bet Detroit will start producing smaller more fuel efficient vehicles. California won't license or permit passenger cars to be equipped with diesel engines, yet we have millions of behemoth pickup trucks and SUV's belching black diesel smoke all over the landscape. Another wonderious decision by our befuddled breaucrats. Shall I go on? We are in this energy crisis because the Government let a lot of silly damn tree huggers convince them that nuclear energy was dangerious, so we haven't approved a Nuke Power plant for the past 20 years. Mean while, the more forward thinking countries of Europe are generating 80% of their power from Nuke Plants. What we need in this Country is a few less breaucrates and politicians and a few more free enterprise, money hungry, risk taking, industrialists and capitalists. (And a whole lot fewer environmentalist that don't know their butts from their elbows.)

kjoo · May 2001

Fuel is outrageous to fill my ML cost 70.00. Americans are doing it all wrong. Volvo,Mercedes,Audi,Saab among other all doing it right midsized wagon with pep and still able to carry alot. The minivan replaced the wagon with the first chrysler and now everyone yuppie or not has a wagon. Drive down my street if their isn't a suv their sure to be a wagon.

dohc32v · May 2001

I do not consider a Mini Van a full sized Van or any SUV as a replacement for a car based Station Wagon. I want a car based truck (ie a large station wagon) not a truck based car (which are vans and SUV's). I want a nice car to take six people to dinner in Friday night, a vehicle to pack full of tree clippings and 4X8 plywood from Home Deport on Saturday and a nice car to take four people to the theater in Saturday night. Then I want to be able to pack the car up for a mini vacation at the drop of a hat and be able to accomodate two dogs plus luggage on the trip and travel in the comfort of a luxury car. That my friend is what the old Station Wagon use to do for people. I don't need a 1/2 pint Wagon like the Europeans offer or Fords version of a 1/2 sized wagon. I want a full blown luxury laden Buick or Mercury Station Wagon, that for all practical purposes is a car, but can haul as much as a 3/4 ton pickup truck and still get decent gas mileage. Comprenda ? I can assure you the product planners in Detroit aren't thinking about this type of vehicle. I can also assure you, if gas prices keep going up, somebody in Detroit should wake up and smell the roses, and put a Station Wagon rear body on a Mercury and/or Ford Crown Victoria or Grand Marquis. They have the base product, all they need to do is bring the wagon body back. GM is behind the 8 ball because they dropped all of their big RWD V-8 platforms in 1996. I suspect Ford would find that they would have a waiting line for full sized Station Wagons, believe my name would be on the list!

pocahontas · May 2001

some of may also be interested in checking out Edmunds.com's Future Telling section. You'll find a direct link to Future Telling in the Additional Resources box on the left side of this page.

Happy Motoring!

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guinvere · July 2001

Why oh WHY won't Toyota reissue a Camry wagon again? The Highland is too damn big!! Not too mention too high off the ground for my poor dog with hip problems. Listen, Toyota! You have three SUVs out there, give the consumers something that they want!

deliveryguy · July 2001

only in your dreams!!! full size station wagons were history years ago...
I think they call them "minivans" now! HA,HA
Gas down to $1.20 here in Atlanta, bring on the gas guzzling SUV's!!!!.....

luvboxrs · July 2001

Actually Toyota has FIVE SUVs (rav4, 4runner, highlander, sequoia and landcruiser) and I agree, it would be great if they made a wagon.

I am driving a 01 Nissan PF right now that I love very much, mainly because it drives like a car. I will replace it in a few years and I'm considering replacing it with a wagon. I agree with most of the posts here....the tiny new wagons are not even in the realm of anything I would buy. I need cargo room! I haul lots of computer equipment (computers, monitors, etc.) for my job and take a couple of dogs to the park on weekends. I gotta have some room in a vehicle.

Because of my past experience with American made cars, I'd look first at imports and it would be great if Toyota, Nissan, Lexus or Honda would come up with a nice, sporty, fun to drive mid-size or bigger wagon.

dudleyr · July 2001

A Passat wagon has considerably more room than a Pathfinder, and a Legacy is about the same, so there are some big import wagons out there. The A-6 wagon, Volvo, Saab, and MBenz are also bigger, but so are their price tags.

It also depends on what you are putting in the back. I have a large storage bin that would not fit in the back of my Taurus wagon, but easily fit into the back of my Corolla wagon. (both are long gone)

However,I do agree it would be nice to see an accord or camry wagon. Really the Highlander with Front Wheel drive is not too far from a wagon - just a bit taller and more cumbersome, but it is off my list because it is only available with an automatic tranny.

It is suprising how many more options used to be available on cars. Remember when you could not only get a Camry as a Wagon, but also with 4 wheel drive, and even with a diesel engine. I would buy a 4wd diesel wagon tomorrow (I am hoping for a Passat with the diesel option by the time I purchase again). Imagine go anywhere, carry anything, and pay almost nothing in fuel.

pocahontas · August 2001

A four-wheel-drive gas/electric hybrid. Read the complete story here. What do you think? Thanks for your comments. ;-)

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qbrozen · August 2001

we'll see if they can pull it off. Some great ideas all in one package, but may be a bit too .... difficult to produce. At least too expensive, anyway.

yanker · August 2001

The bigger Saturn is a nice looking vehicle but Consumer reports says they have horrendous reliability problems. I too wish Toyota would build a decent looking wagon in the Camry series

FrankMc · September 2001

but they are now concentrating on the "SUV" market. The new Camry wagon is called the Highlander (give it some SUV styling cues, and charge alot more than you could if you called it a Camry wagon)

Frank

ateixeira · October 2001

I'm a wagon fan, and I gotta say there are some nice looking alternatives showing up! I like just about all of them except for that Mazda Premacy, which is ironice because we own two Mazdas.

You won't see full size wagons any time soon because SUVs have a much wider profit margin. That plus CAFE ensure it.

Lexus has a pair of SUVs, too, the LX470 and the RX300, so you could say Toyota sells 7 of them.

Sport wagons are making a comeback, though. It's about time!

-juice

rkeenley · October 2001

There are a lot of photos of upcoming hatchbacks here, but darn few (if any) wagons. Agree with dohc32v and others that a genuine station wagon has to be big enough to hold a 4x8 sheet of plywood with the hatch closed. Unfortunately, they don't seem to make them anymore. I own a `94 Camry wagon with a third seat and it's great - drives like a car and packs like a truck. Want to get a new wagon, but for the money, nothing comes close. I guess maybe the Passat is about as close as I'll get.

ateixeira · October 2001

I disagree. If the roof line goes beyond the top of the rear doors, it's a wagon.

Even in the case of the Protoge5, it's a wagon. Call it a small wagon if you'd like.

-juice

dudleyr · October 2001

It is hard to say what qualifies as a wagon. Even a VW Golf 2 door hatchback has a roof that extends past the rear doors.

I used to think that having a window behind the rear door was what made a car a wagon, but I saw a geo metro 4 door hatch the other day and it had a window behind the rear door.

ateixeira · October 2001

OK, let me rephrase that. You have to have 3 windows along the side, including a D-pillar, too.

The Golf is odd just because it has a very wide C-pillar. There is no D-pillar because no window resides behind the door. So it's not a wagon.

The Matrix, Vibe, Protoge5, and SportCross all have a 3rd windows and a D-pillar, though they are small.

-juice

PS They do make a Golf wagon in Europe, with an extra window and a D-pillar. Oddly, it's not the same as the Jetta wagon.

FrankMc · October 2001

There are so many choices and different approaches. There are a range of vehicles and at some point a line get's drawn and the vehicles are put together. Some like Chrysler PT Cruiser is called a "truck" to defeat some CAFE requirements, . If we can't figure out what a truck is (as opposed to a car), we will never agree on what a wagon is (or a SUV, or a mini-SUV, or a hatchback, or a ....)

Frank

ateixeira · October 2001

You're right, totally. The lines have blurred.

The PT is actually classified as a minivan, go figure. They may not do a convertible because it would lose the truck categorization.

So these aren't wagon in the traditional sense. Maybe we should call them sport wagons, or fastbacks, or 5 doors.

-juice

FrankMc · October 2001

I think if SUV's had been called Utility Vehicles rather than Sports Utility Vehicles their sales would be down. I think whomever invented the term was a marketing genius. Station Wagon, old fashioned... sports wagon ... trendy

Frank

nakins · October 2001

Maybe I looked in the wrong category for posts about the MX sport tourer. I wonder what the chances are for it being produced in either it's current form or just a gas engine model. I think this car is great. Just the body style alone makes this car sit on the top of my want list. I'm a middle aged man, and have been a motorhead all my life. This car is well thought out to give a good balance between form and function, style and substance. I hope I get a chance to buy this car. I read that the 626 wagon replacement might look something like this. I wouldn't care if they didn't have the sliding roof glass, although it would be nice. Change the headlights and taillights, and even the grill if you want, but build this car! I want one!

ateixeira · October 2001

Mazda will have an RX coupe, likely with suicide style rear doors. They'll use the same chassis for the next Miata, too.

So the parts are all in place, they just have to make the decision. The Protoge5 is cute but many folks may find it a bit small.

-juice

revka · October 2001

According to articles I've read, Mazda's current plans include only the 2003 Mazda 6 sedan for North America. However, we could also see the wagon version over here if Mazda feels there's a market for it. Read more about the Mazda 6 in Edmund's Preview of the 2003 Mazda 6, by D. John Booth.

What do you think? ;-)

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ateixeira · October 2001

I love it! Who says wagons can't be stylish? Very nice!

219 hp, 5 speed auto, side and side curtain air bags, chain driven cams, ... sounds good. Make AWD an option and they couldn't build enough of them.

-juice

robr2 · October 2001

My feelings too. I recently decided I want a wagon/mini-ute to replace my Accord. We have an Ody but with 2 kids you gotta have lots of room to carry their stuff in the other car as well. AWD would be nice but I've lived in snow country forever and survived without it.

With rumors of Mazda and Honda planning wagons for 2003, I'm starting to have options for a midsize wagon without going into the $30K+ area (hopefully). Sorry Tex, I can't deal with the lack of a real sliding sunroof in the Subes!!

Things are going to get interesting in this arena next year.

ateixeira · October 2001

I agree. Honda's jumping in too?

-juice

robr2 · October 2001

The rumor mill gets hot!!!

I've read here the rumors and thoughts of many people that Honda may offer an Accord wagon in North America because:

2003 expected new model release - perfect time to do it.

The Avancier and Aerodeck are good base points to work from.

The supposed Honda version of the MDX is going to be even bigger than that - somewhere near Tahoe size. An MDX sized Honda might compete against an AWD Honda Wagon.

Wagons (rather Avants, Variants, Tourings, Sportcrosses, 5's) are hot right now. I don't think Honda wants to miss out on these categories now. The last Accord wagon came out when SUV's were starting to heat up. Imagine if Honda introduced a real Odyssey a few years ago.

Since Honda plays it close to the vest, we'll know when they want us to know. Until then, I will keep hoping the rumors are true.

As an aside - the proper pronunciation is Te-sheerrrrrrr-ah, correct? I'm half Portugee/half Brazilian myself.

ateixeira · October 2001

Avancier looks much nicer than Aerodeck.

Other names used include Estate, Versatility, and sport wagon.

Your pronunciation is perfect. Lots of Portugues names end with "eira", and most are a type of tree.

-juice

hpulley4 · November 2001

While I much prefer any kind of hatchback to a sedan, I still like tradional wagon designs much more than the tall cross-overs. Anyone who uses a wagon regularly knows that you don't always pile stuff all the way up to the ceiling as it reduces visibility (large boxes are the exception here). With smaller items you have to tie stuff down so it doesn't fly around the passenger compartment. Cross-overs that have high cubic feet numbers but small floor space area in the back are often less useful than wagons which have a good amount of floor area in addition to a large total volume.

I find tall vehicles are less stable than regular car sizes. They are more top heavy and more prone to being pushed by cross-winds. I chose a wagon because I didn't want an SUV so a cross-over isn't for me.

Personally, I was sad to see Saturn's large wagon didn't even get mentioned in the article. More evidence of a poor marketing program for Saturn. This is too bad, as the first-year problems in 2000 are gone and the 2001 and up is a nice, reliable vehicle with a good solid ride and good value for the price.

ateixeira · November 2001

It's hard to fathom they wrote an article about wagons and did not even mention Subaru. You have the Impreza TS and WRX, Legacy L and GT, and several Outback wagons.

-juice

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