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Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
Civic, corolla, tercel, camry, stanza, dodge colt vista. All replaced by thirstier, less nimble and larger, but not necessarily roomier, SUV's.
Car manufacturers are playing on the anti-SUV backlash with cars that give the benefits of SUV's with better gas mileage and better ride quality. You are right that you won't be able to pull mountains but you will still be able to pull boats. Wants and needs are subjective to how you perceive them. I would say that as people have become more successful, their kids have grown, activities have increased and their wastelines have widened the additional room of a SUV and the new wagons would be considered a need.
I agree that for me most sedans are too small and that a SUV isn't necessary. However, I take a look at the wagons that currently do fulfill my needs and they are either too expensive, too ugly or too small. I'm excited to see what the near future holds and I'm sure I'll be purchasing a wagon in the not too distant future.
Just MO.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
Those small wagons were nice, and even had cult-like followings, but they never received the backing from the parent companies, so most had weak 4 bangers and low payloads. Not to mention very awkward styling (remember Tercel, Stanza?).
The new breed of sport wagons is styled better and have bigger engines, so they have a much better shot. I also think consumers are looking for more efficiency in the overall package, and wagons deliver.
-juice
You have to remember, these are trendy. They used to be bought for the functions they could perform, but lately it's been more about image.
For these, a crossover is probably better suited.
-juice
Now if we could just bring some civility and understanding to the people in some other topics.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
I have to admit the Highlander is a much more stylish vehicle than the station wagon I borrowed from my mom when I was a teenager! After I test drove it...it was all over for me as I felt it was the vehicle I was meant to own.
This class of vehicle offers a lot of advantages of both SUVs and wagons with only a moderate reduction in fuel efficiency. IMO hese cars will hit the sweet spot with a lot of folks.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
The lines have blurred. Those are very difficult to pin into a single category.
Highlander is a Camry wagon in a trendy SUV wrapper, and that's a good thing.
-juice
If it were up to me to decide on how to classify these two I would again put them under the wagon category and here's why. SUV's are traditionally truck based and generally body on frame. There are instances where they are unibody and it is becoming more and more prevelent. However, they are still targeted at the off-road, towing, tall stance, Testosterone segment (regardless of how you wrap the package). Minivans started as boxes on frames that were smaller versions of their full size parents. However, they quickly evolved to people haulers that were unibody in construction and more car like in their ride characteristics. I don't know this for a fact, but I would feel comfortable in guessing, that there is more swapping of parts between wagons/sedans and minivans than there are between wagons/sedans and SUV's. Minivans are also have a lower riding stance/step in height, generally have less towing capacity and use passenger type tires. To me both the Rendevous and the Pacifica fit more closely into the second category rather than the first.
I realize that there are other more technical considerations for classifying vehicles but this is my opinion. In my state the DOT hasn't even really classified how you should register SUV's. We can register them as cars if we mostly drive them as general transportation. My job really won't let me do that, so mine is registered as a truck but I also use it as a "car".
I think that the bigger question is will the auto industry try to create a new category for these types of vehicles or will they try and classify them into an existing one. The problem is that in recent history calling something a station wagon has been the kiss of death with respect to sales. Maybe we need to lobby Edmunds for a new category?
On another note, I personally think the Rendevous looks good on paper but is a mess in reality.
Sorry for the long post.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
Look at the Pathfinder - it's a unibody with the VQ series engine from the Altima/Maxima. So that would make it a wagon, except it has a low range and certainly seems to fit the definition of an SUV.
I guess the bottom line is it's hard to categorize them. Matrix ads even make fun of this, though I think the Matrix is very much a wagon IMO, albeit an attractive one.
Automakers? They want to call them trucks. Why? CAFE for trucks is 20.7, for cars is 27.5. So call it a truck and you not only meet the standard, you also help yourself sell more profitable trucks that don't.
It's absurd, but the drop-top PT Cruiser is considered a truck. The four door was because the rear seats were removable (like the RAV4), but Chrysler asked for and got an exception in the case of the convertible.
More and more they are going to do anything and everything to try to call a car a truck.
-juice
Although the Pathy is unibody and utilizing Nissans versatile V6 it also markets its towing capacity, raised seating position off-road prowess and "masculine" appearance. All of these attributes go toward a truck. As you said difficult to classify.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
-juice
The new 4Runner is coming out next year and it won't be long before Toyota is offering some pretty heavy incentives to get them off of their lots. Sales on them will still not catch up to the Highlander. The Highlander is what most people want who are looking in this segment.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
4Runners already have rebates, $500 I think, and Highlander sales increase while 4Runner sales drop. It's an old model, though. 4Runner did have a high demand and sustained that for several years, so I'd still call it a success.
-juice
Based on the ratio of new SUV's shown during the last round of auto shows compared to the number of wagon/crossovers coming out. I think that the competition and debate over the similarities/differences between the two will continue.
Is anybody else out there cross shopping? Why or why not?
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
My wife will replace her sedan soon, and she wants the look of an SUV, but demands better gas mileage, sporty handling, and easy maneuverability. We're looking at all kinds of vehicles, but a crossover seems likely. Neither of us wants a truck.
-juice
I've put 11,000 miles on my loaded CXL and it's been nothing but a joy to drive and own.
In fact, the only mess I've seen is chocolate milk and cheerios in the backseat!
That was a big part of its appeal to me...I needed to tow my boat but I didn't want something that handled like a truck. Ok, it's no BMW, but it's far better than the truck based SUVs in its class in that regard.
Yes, it can tow 5000 lbs...it gets its stiffness from a zillion welds instead of a ladder frame...very stiff.
All of the goodies that come standard and the dimensional size look good on paper but, IMO Buick wrapped it in a very unappealing package and then took a second tier choice for their engine. My dad owns a Century and he really likes the Rendevous. It's just not my cup of tea, or maybe it's my cup of tea just the wrong cup.
li - It may not have been based on the hard body, but it certainly wasn't car based. I'm pretty sure that the original Pathfinder was body on frame but have been unable to verify this. Nissan did dip into their truck parts bin to outfit the Pathfinder.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
I'm not aware of any truck parts that are used on the current PF, but I could be wrong.
I would agree with your statement about car-based. Your example regarding the RX and the Camry is a good one. The flexibility of a vehicles architecture allows manufacturers more options at a lower cost.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
I think your assessment is fair, although aesthetics are highly subjective. Many people (myself included) find the Rendezvous to be attractive overall. Although the rear end is somewhat ungainly, it pays big dividends in space and versatiltiy.
As for the engine, the 3.4L was a logical choice for Buick since the platform was designed for it and it minimized R&D, thereby reducing costs. The engine is a good performer with surprisingly good low-end torque. Although not a quick car, the Rendezvous has completely satisfactory power for it's intended mission.
I agree that the Rendezvous could have been an "outstanding" vehicle had it been outfitted with a multivalve VVT engine. As it stands, the Rendezvous is merely "very good."
Oh yeah, with current incentives, a well equipped AWD Rendezvous can be had for about $26K, which is at least $10K less than a comparable ML320, MDX, RX300, etc. Since the Rendezvous can trade blows with these imports all day long, the Rendezvous becomes very attractive indeed!
A close friend's parents have a Colt Vista, I liked it then and still like it now. Great packaging and space for its size. Still runs and it must be 15 years old now.
I test drove a Rendezvous and liked it OK. Engine was a little coarse but you have to factor in the price. 3 rows of seats are rare at its price level.
-juice
However, I think I might change your mind about white...
http://home.attbi.com/~fishkin1/wsb/html/view.cgi-photos.html-.html
-juice
this is especially annoying given the little blurb on the login page that states that one only has to login in order to POST a message (viewing is not mentioned). Grrrr...
And now back to the subject of Station Wagon vs SUV. Happy motoring!
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Station Wagons Boards
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
We tried a Highlander, but the rear seat was a park bench, and prices were high ($26-28k the way we wanted it). It was smooth but felt big.
We tried a Camry SE and a Honda CR-V, but it was hard to find a Camry 5 speed with ABS, and the shifter was clunky. The cheapest Honda with ABS was $21,500, and it didn't feel as substantial as the others to me.
Got the Legacy wagon for $17,827, and that's with AWD, ABS, cruise, keyless, A/C, power everything, 4 disc brakes, etc.
The first tank yielded 24.6mpg with the A/C on most of the time, in mixed driving. Not bad. We're totally satisfied with it.
-juice
They have tried to find an in-between with all the mini-SUVs, but then they made them too pricey, like the highlander.
It is too bad, because for most of these buyers, a wagon is all they really need.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
size wagon with power and quality for under
$25000.The Mazda 6 coming soon is a start.Then maybe Honda will follow.The Legacy wagon is a
good choice but it is underpowered and to get the V6 the price goes too high.The Passat is also good but overpriced unless you get the 1.8T.I think the 1.8t wagons sell well and are hard to find, though.
The CR-V would have cost us $4 grand more, the Highlander about $8-10 grand more than we spent, so no thanks.
Murano should arrive soon to compete with Highlander, and Pilot too. But I doubt either will be nimble and fun.
Legacy's boxer 4 has 165hp, not bad really. The H6 (not Vee) will make its way into the Legacy line this year, and prices have dropped substantially. I was just shopping these - you can get an H6 sedan for just over $25k, or an LL Bean wagon for about $26.3k. So those might just be the car you're asking for.
The catch is they only come in automatics. Passat wagons are nice but 1.8T manuals are rare, especially in wagon form. With 4Motion the price is way too high for me.
-juice
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
If you want a wagon, they start at $26,017. The press reviewed mostly VDC wagons, which MSRP for a high price, but the selling point on those is the stability control system that VW doesn't offer yet (Audi does, VW will next year).
The same dealer sells VWs, and 4Motion models start at $30,433.
All prices include freight, too. We bought our Legacy from them and they added only tax.
-juice
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
Having owned one, I agree that Subaru wagons are not the quickest cars out there, but I would not say they are underpowered either. I do wish the new H-6's had an available manual transmission. And it will be great when they put the six-cylinders in all the legacy models, which I figure they are probably on their way to doing. A Legacy GT wagon with the six sounds pretty cool to me!
Someone told me another reason people buy SUVs as opposed to other cars is the feeling of safety in them - the "tank as a commuter car" mentality. I guess it is pretty hard for wagons to fight that as well.
And by the way, I don't know if the new Mazda 6 wagon, when it comes, will have a V-6 option, but I would be surprised if it were less than (roughly) the price of the H-6 Outback if it does. Of course, if Taurus brought back its wagon, that would have a V-6 and be cheaper...wait, doesn't it still have the wagon? I am sure it does not have AWD available, however, and for that matter, neither will the Mazda 6.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Mazda MPV now has the 3.0L V6 and traction control, not to mention a host of other safety features.
It's a great small people hauler for less than $25,000.
The Aerio is pretty small, so it's more of a budget alternative to the Matrix/Vibe and Impreza wagons. But the Zook gets 140hp, the Vibe twins just 123hp with AWD, while there is 165hp for the Subie. Or stretch to a WRX wagon and blow them all away.
I like the Mazda 6, saw it in person at the NY show actually. Very nice, should be a hot seller. Wagon and 5 door hatch are particularly appealing. Too late for me, though. 219hp + FWD = torque steer, usually. We'll see. It would really benefit from AWD.
-juice
http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_036502
http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_032997
I also love my Oasis (first gen Odyssey) If they still made something like that it would also fit your description. Not quite as minivan like, and seats 7. Much more nimble than current Odyssey as it weighs abut 800 lbs less - really just a tall Accord Wagon.
http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_033650