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Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
Accord with the 2.4 Ivtec and might be here late
summer of 2002.It might cut into CRV sales so this
may not be gospel.If uou had a choice of either
with the same equipment for the same price which
would you choose? The wagon would handle better and if it had a 5 speed would be fun too.The high
view of the road is nice too.I'll take one of each.
On the other hand, the Passat AWD with the V6 is a pretty good alternative to the Sub, but I think it is more expensive by several thou $$, right?
Mazda 6 hatch, Odyssey (old gen), and new accord five-door all do not have AWD, unless I am mistaken. And as far as Aerio, you are right, it is in a group with some smaller hatches, not a competitor for Sub H-6. I would say Impreza is the best of the smaller group, but definitely costs more than Aerio, and maybe more than Matrix AWD as well, I am not sure. I am also sure you get more feature content and a better built car going with the Impreza!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
This makes me sound like I am a big fan of SUVs and I am absolutely, ardently the opposite of that, but I am also frustrated at the number of people who continue to buy SUVs that they will never use more than 10% of the capabilities of, meanwhile using more gas, creating more pollution, and heck, even wrecking the roads faster with their huge heavy vehicles. Not to mention driving a vehicle that they are not well enough trained to drive, thereby creating a danger to all the rest of us who drive cars.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'm sure the Accord will be more substantial feeling, plus handle better.
4Motions at fitmall.com, a local no-haggle dealer, run $30k and up. Subie LL Bean are about $4 grand cheaper, while VDC are about a grand cheaper. But VW doesn't (yet) offer stability control, so the LL Bean is more comparable.
A WRX wagon costs more than a Matrix AWD, but an Outback Sport wagon is cheaper and much closer in terms of performance.
-juice
A 1996 Caprice Wagon was rated 17/25 MPG with 330 HP and 330 Ft-Lb of Torque.
The 2003 Expedition 2WD XLT with the 4.6 is 14/19 with only 232 hp and 291 lb-ft and 1000 lb more weight...
The 5 speed V6 2WD Explorer is only 16/21...
My father's 83 Caprice averaged over 22 in mostly highway driving.
-Brian
If I'm wrong I'm sure somebody will correct me.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
-juice
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
my state registration info has 'station wagon' on it
They list it as a 5.7 with 330/330 for a 96 Caprice Wagon here on the Edmunds site. The Sedan is listed as a 4.6 L 200hp/240lb-ft
The 95 Wagon is listed as a 5.7L 260hp/330 lb-f. and the Sedan as 4.6L 200hp/235 lb-ft.
Highlander is very nice but it's kind of pricey once you equip it. We tested one that was $26k at invoice and didn't have AWD or leather. IIRC the Camry wagon could be had for low 20s even well equipped.
Honda announced prices for the Pilot, so an EX with leather would set me back $30,710, plus about $775 for a 7/100 warranty means it's also out of my price range.
So how about an affordable Accord wagon?
A decade ago they didn't sell well, but people coming out of SUVs want the space so I think they'd sell better in today's market.
Subaru has had growth in every year since 1995, and nearly doubled sales in that time, primarily with wagons. They are still small but they used to be tiny.
-juice
BTW, as far as Subie, I would agree they are a small carmaker in terms of their annual sales, and the road is not flooded with wagons as a result, but I will also say this: around northern California, you can't throw a stone without hitting one of those outbacks. There are a lot of those on the roads now. So there must be a market for wagons - Sub increases their sales every year...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Plus, you'll recall the last Camry wagon came with a V6, and the Highlander is only heavier.
Still, as an affordable people mover, I can see the appeal.
-juice
How much does a V-6 highlander 2WD go for? Around $27K right? A little high I agree, but still in the ball park. And I bet dealers have plenty of V-6, 2WD highlanders around.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In the end the price seemed high for the equipment level, though I can definitely see the appeal. We paid $17.8k for a Legacy L wagon instead.
-juice
Legacys are far underrated in the US, especially in the south. If only they'd beef up the interior, it'd be the only car to get.
But in our price range (under $18k) there isn't really anything much better. Even on Accords and Camrys, the interiors are only good when you step up to the EX or XLE models.
-juice
A Jetta GLS wagon with 5 speed would have cost about what I paid, but that's a compact with 115hp. The 1.8T would cost about a grand more than I paid, and would still lack AWD and be one size smaller.
A Legacy is closer in size to a Passat, really. We considered the Passat, but not the Jetta, which doesn't rate as highly in reliability. Still, it's nice that VW offers wagons.
-juice
I am still getting over the fact that in '97 I bought a 100K extended bumper to bumper for my Subie, and never even got $50 back from it! What a waste of money that was! But I guess in the long run I would rather have a problem-free vehicle than to have to use my precious warranty!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
-mike
Honda Civic Hatchback is my favorite SUV then! Look at the great gas milage it gets!!!!
-mike
But I think his point was that you can divide SUVs into 2 classes...real SUVs and SUV-look-alikes. I would venture that the defining difference between the 2 is that real SUVs can do serious off roading, towing and hauling...unlike the others which cannot and are really "tall wagons" or MVs that look SUVish.
Of course, the ability to do heavy duty tasks might not be a definition of SUVs that everyone agrees with...especially since about 75% of SUV owners (IMO) don't use them for those purposes
(:-O)
-mike
More of such "hot-air" terms are "crossover vehicle" (in my time that would be a neighbor who didn't manage to stop in time before reaching my fence), "SUT", and countless others (shall we start a list? I am afraid to ask).
Bob
There's a heck of a lot of marketing hype centered around the SUV, but to say that the term SUV is "purely a marketing term" is simply not true.
...not based on any particular engineering specification.
I disagree.
The typical SUV (real SUV, if you will) is very identifiable with clearly distinctive attributes:
- Truck frame, stiff and heavy for heavy duty tasks like heavy hauling, towing and off roading
- High ground clearance for off roading and snow clearance
- 4WD for off roading, heavy snow applications and some towing tasks
- Large engine with a transfer case to provide high torque for heavy duty applications
- an enclosed cargo area, accessible from the passenger space, with climate control to enable "normal" passenger use as well as heavy duty applications
- a flat, decent-sized cargo area for hauling applications...this is just to eliminate the Wrangler as an SUV ;-)
SUVs like the Tahoe, Suburban, Expedition, 4Runner, Explorer, Trailblazer, and many others all fall under this definition (oops, the Trooper, too...sorry Paisan ;-) ) There are car-based SUVs that have all the other characteristics, too, like the Grand Cherokee and the Pathfinder.
No one with at least a basic understanding of vehicles is going to confuse these with any car, wagon or MV. SUV is a fairly meaningful term.
I agree, though, that those not familiar with the differences between a "real" SUV and the others, could be confused. Maybe that's why so many folks are buying SUVs when they don't need them ;-)
Now, the other, "non-real" SUVs like the RX300, MDX, X5, Highlander and others (and almost all mini-utes) only have 4WD, increased ground clearance and an enclosed cargo area...and those things are available in many other vehicles.
So, in short, I think your claim applies to some SUVs, but not the "real ones".
More of such "hot-air" terms are "crossover vehicle"
IMO, it's still a useful (although more vague, of course) term. Basically means "non-real" SUV.
I am afraid to ask
Apparently not ;-)
The Jeep Cherokee, Grand Cherokee and Liberty all have "beefed up unibody" structures, not the traditional body-on-frame structures that you mentioned. Same with the new (and very capable) VW Touareg/Porsche Cayenne. I think(?) that's also true for the current-generation Montero. Not sure about the all-new Range Rover.
Bob
IMO, these vehicles are still "real" SUVs...so I guess I would revise the frame attribute to be truck-based or "Beefed up unibody".
The 4runner had a frame-ectomy around the same time as the pathfinder. I'm not sure about the Trailblazer. Even with a full frame, a Chevy Tahoe gets 4 stars for a side impact, whereas my '98 VW New Beetle gets 5. But I don't think my Beetle is an SUV just because its tougher.
Whatever you do, don't ask Mazda what an SUV is. When their minivan wouldn't sell they tried pushing it as an SUV. A couple of years ago an auto-magazine put it into an SUV comparison, and when they went off-road the front sub-frame fell off the van barely a car-length off the road!
In their marketing wisdom, Mazda have replaced it with an exact clone of the original, tiny Honda Odyssey which Honda dropped because no-one would buy them.
Honda now sells one of 2 front-drive vans available that can take a 4'x8' sheet inside and close the rear door. The other is the Eurovan. Interesting, but the 4x4 (Synchro) versions of VW's van fits your definition of SUV. But I don't believe you can buy them in the US. They're only in Europe, Canada, England, South America, ...
For instance once you hit 30mph, the suspension drops down and the sway bars re-connect to the suspension. Now lets say you are in a mud hole up to the door handles and you want to "spin" your way out it with the wheels spinning at say 31mph. You are gonna be SOL because the suspension is gonna drop on you @ 30mph.
Offroading has a lot to do with finnesse and sometime you just need traditional suspension systems to accomplish that. Not that the Cayanne is a BAD vehicle, but they should stop touting it as an "offroader" like the TLC and G500.
-mike
-mike
Since we are having such a difficulty defining a "real SUV", what are we to think of the "non-real SUVs" as you yourself have dubbed the "crossover" vehicles?
And how would Forester square with your definitions, then, and why? To me it is just an AWD wagon that handles like a wagon. It is no tougher than many former domestic wagons (and no one called them SUVs). Is it a non-real SUV? A crossover vehicle? A non-real crossover vehicle?
4Runner's frame rails are boxed and significantly upsized. This beefier frame contributes to improve torsional rigidity for increased stability and handling, and quells cabin noise with less road and drivetrain vibration.
That's from Cars & Trucks.
And this from Truck Trend:
...the original 4Runner had a beefy frame under a separate body, and the newest version is no different. The full-length boxed section frame rails are connected with nine fully welded crossmembers, while a Class III tow-hitch receiver is built into the rear-frame crossmember. The rigid frame is a good place to mount a substantial suspension...
Here's a link to the Truck Trend article.
The Trailblazer (like the cousin Envoy) is truck framed.
Interesting, but the 4x4 (Synchro) versions of VW's van fits your definition of SUV.
Neither the VW van nor the bug can tow over 3500 lbs or haul over 1200 lbs, AFAIK. So, no...they don't fit my definition.
I agree about the Mazda and also about others like that...there's a lot of "not-so-real" SUVs out there. But I think the real ones are pretty well defined.
And what's wrong with that? ;-)
Well, I never mentioned chronology, but I'm still not sure that that's true. The old TLC and Suburbans fit under that definition as well and they've been around a long, long time.
In addition, since the range of the "SUVs" is so wide, it necessitates making the specs so flexible as to encompass many vehicles they were clearly not intended conceptually to include.
I'm not disagreeing with that. The term itself "SUV" includes stuff that defies definition. I'm just saying that I think it's possible to define what a "real" SUV is and that there's a clear set of vehicles that fit there. I totally agree the simple term SUV is misapplied and is not, by itself, a clear term in the marketplace.
And how would Forester square with your definitions, then, and why? To me it is just an AWD wagon that handles like a wagon.
Yup..and a light duty one at that. It's small and unpowered. Suitable for some, but no SUV, for sure.