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Comments
Once I decided to move from my Sedan to a wagon I already was prepared to give up 5MPG. I get 33 MPG everyday in my SL-2. I get 24 in my B-2500 and I get 35-40 in my SC-1. Fuel savings is one of the reasons I looked at a Forrester. Yes I could rent a truck instead of having my own pickup. I could rent one for the difference between what a Forrester and my sedan get in gas every month. Some of the new small wagons might qualify as more fuel efficient but not many. The Matrix or the Vibe might prove to be gas sippers I don't know. There is a reason that they sold 4.5 million SUVs in the US last year. It wasn't because people cared what the minority thought they needed but rather what the buyers felt they needed. No one knows what another person "needs". We should be careful as we decide what cars should not be made. Far more people enjoy their SUVs than sports cars but few of us would ever suggest that people stop buying sports cars just because they aren't "practical" for every day use. Wagons are providing and alternative to moving from a Sedan to a small SUV. If we ever limit what cars should be bought by what some small group feels is "needed" life will be dull indeed. If I were to suggest to some of my sport compact cars friends that the Forrester was a sporty car or one that should set the standard to what they "needed" I would have far fewer friends
Sedans can't nearly match the carrying capacity of wagons. That's before you even look at the roof rack, which I use often.
Wagons are versatile, offer utility, and are far more efficient than SUVs. I'm not saying SUVs should sieze to exist, of course not. There are people that actually have boats, and even a few that really do venture off road. But what I'm saying is that 90% of those buyers would be better served by wagons, or crossovers, or whatever label you choose to put on them.
I don't understand your gas mileage argument. A coupe does not meet my needs, not even close. Ever pack for a road trip with a toddler? Even the sedan won't cut it for me.
-juice
I'm looking to replace my wifes car within the next year or so and can't wait for the new crop of crossovers. My wife won't drive a minivan or my SUV because the size scares her. I've driven the VW Passat V6 AWD and had a hoot of a time. It's just too small with too few seats. Putting a rocket pack on the roof rack doesn't make for a comfortable passenger seat or help the gas mileage.
SUV's are great for the people that NEED them, most of us don't. Most of us need/want a vehicle that seats more than 5 with cargo room for those passengers. The Northeast isn't the only part of the country that gets snow and AWD is nice here in the Midwest also.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
Also speaking of quick wagons how about the jetta with the 180hp 1.8t - quick and economical (0-60 under 7 and over 140mph). Certainly quicker than any SUV(not counting those goofy limited production things). That is another thing that seems funny to me. Some people will say things like I need the extra power of a V-8 so I gotta have a full size car or SUV/truck. They buy a Suburban/F-150/town car that has a huge V-8, but accelerates about as fast as a 4 cyl Accord with an automatic because of all the weight it has to carry, and of course it handles like the queen mary. Mean while an average sized car with a 4 cyl. engine runs circles around them.
To me the SUV carries around all that bulk, to be used such a small part of the time (by most people not all - in SD some farmers/ranchers stuff 6-8 people in one, and go 20 miles to the nearest paved road in the winter while towing horses/cattle/hay etc. - now that is using an SUV, and I do not begrudge them one bit). The advantages of a wagon such as better handling, braking, ride, acceleration, economy, manueverability, parkability etc. are used all the time.
The Legacy GT is pretty sporting. A buddy of mine took one to a "Friday at the Track" event and hit 106mph on the straightaway. With the instructor behind the wheel, they passed a Ferrari Testarossa (with the owner, of course).
I have a Miata for the quick errands and stuff like that. But the Forester doesn't penalize you too much, it's the most fun to drive small car-based SUV. In fact that's why I bought it.
-juice
Of course, aftermarket chips are very popular for the 1.8T and make a world of difference for just a few hundred dollars.
A GTI with a 5-speed hits 60 in about 6.8 to 7.2 seconds, depending on the source. The Jetta is likely .5 second slower due to added weight.
Still plenty quick, and fun to drive too.
-juice
Remember, just because you have the space doesn't mean you can carry more. You still have a payload limit.
Also, I can put 150 lbs on my roof, while most SUVs are only rated for 75-100 or so.
Do they necessarily handle worse than sedans? Not really. BMW claims their 3 series wagon is actually 10% stiffer than the sedan.
Can you name one SUV as quick as a WRX wagon? For even 50% more money?
-juice
To reinforce the wagon as a fun ride, a few years ago Volvo raced their wagons overseas instead of the sedans because they were both more aerodynamic and I think stiffer.
Generally speaking though, I have to agree with boaz. Wagons and the new crossovers are 'tweener vehicles WRT SUV's and sedans. You can find exceptions to the general rules but his description basically fits.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
I like wagons and think they are the perfect compromise. Perhaps the weight gained will cost you a 5% performance penalty, if that, but an SUV might cost you closer to 20-30% performance penalty.
-juice
You can probably modify the seat track to lift the seat a bit. I've done this on my Miata, and I know of people who did this to their Outback.
But you can only do so much, since you still have to reach all the controls.
-juice
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
-juice
PS I found out yesterday that 37% of all wagons sold are Subarus. That's impressive.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
To each his own
-juice
Of course we don't have traffic here (have not waited more than 1 cycle for a light in many years) so I don't have to worry about looking over it. ; ^ )
A lot of potential station wagon buyers have bought SUVs because they wanted four wheels pulling when the going gets tough. Manufacturers were quick to give us a large assortment of 4WD SUVs at the same time they were dropping station wagons from their lineups.
My point is that a lot of soccer moms have been driving Explorers or Grand Cherokees because they needed 4WD, not because there is anything else about a big SUV that attracted them. When more vans have AWD, they will sell. When more station wagons have AWD, they will sell. If people could have chosen a good AWD wagon ten or twenty years ago, they would have been very popular.
Two examples for you right there.
I agree that you might be right with some cases, but I still think the vast majority of people pick SUV's for the wrong reasons.
The roads are closed or no travel advisories issued well before I start having any problems with driving. The worst situation is when there is a white out (happened this weekend) but 4WD does not help with visibility - in fact having your lights higher up just makes it harder to see through the snow.
We also have these big trucks with blades on the front that we call snow plows. If they have plowed anybody with a decent vehicle can get through. If they haven't nobody can - when there is a bad storm.
To those that buy AWD or 4WD for driving in extreme snow conditions - do yourself a favor and buy 4 snow tires. The most dangerous part of driving in the snow is not being able to stop! That is where tires will help you, not your vehicles drive system.
I am amazed at how freely people will spend thousands of dollars for two more driven wheels, yet they wont spend a few hundred for snow tires (that actually make their summer tires last longer).
I guess the problem is that nobody knows you have the tires, and it doesn't make sense in this country to spend money if nobody can tell you have. ; ^ )
Subaru has climbed from a low of 100k sales per year to almost double that rate. The new Forester and the Baja arrive this year, too.
-juice
So at least a few have the need. I'm sure you're right about why most people get them, though.
-juice
Where I live the lumber stores deliver for free, so I don't have to drive a behemoth just so I can bring home building materials once a year.
Of course there is still that image thing ; ^ )
There are also other options out now for 3 row seating other than the Suburban. You might want to try the Explorer(V8 and 3-rows, see Edmunds latest comparison on the home page), Trailblazer XL (and its twins in GM/Olds/Isuzu), Durango (get the 4.7 for better mileage), Montero (anemic engine) and MDX (slightly upscale). If you can wait 2 or 3 months you will also have the Honda Pilot (very similar to the Acura MDX).
You may also be surprised at the crew cabs that are out right now. I'm not sure if they seat 4 or 5 but it is definitely an option for you. Ford and Chevy make a full size crew cab. Ford, Chevy, Dodge and Nissan make a smaller one that can still carry your supplies and tow a load.
Just some suggestions. I hope it helps.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
Honda Odyssey
Dodge Grand Caravan
Honda Pilot (I think they said plywood fits)
Various Crew Cab compact pickups
Ford F150 Crew Cab
Dodge Ram Quad Cab
Avalanche
Or...how about a utility trailer? I think Costco is selling one cheap right now. Then you could own just about any car you want, so long as it's equipped to tow.
-juice
While there are lots of things to consider other than ability to tow over 3500lbs, I think the Astro is the only MV that can handle that (class III hitch). It has AWD, too...but I don't think it can handle a flat 4x8 sheet.
Other than that, the Astro is a pretty good hauler with lots of room. Might be an alternative.
I saw the new one in person. Compared to my 1998 (the original model), it's not much taller or bigger. It is more space efficient, with more space in the back seat (not a lot, though).
Their cut-out allowed me to see the aluminum bits used in the bumper frames, chassis, and hood. So I believe it's 90 lbs lighter, as Subaru claims. The same 2.5l will provide power, but next year a 217hp turbo is rumored. That will easily lead the class in power/weight ratio.
-juice
The Forrester Turbo has been around in Europe and Japan for a while:
http://carview.msn.co.uk/mvip/trims/SUBFOR0017.asp
With only 177hp, it apparently goes 0-60 in 7.7 seconds. Not shabby, that speed would be enough for me. If it had 212hp, it would be something like 6.8-7.0 i bet.
The 2003 gets a version of the WRX engine tuned for more low-end torque. WRXs can hit 60 in as little as 5.4 seconds, but I imagine the heavier, more torquey but less powerful Forester will take just under 7s, as you say.
-juice
Strange thing is that here in the South (GA), we all have 2WD SUVs. We're basically paying all that money just for the utility of the space. In comes the wagon...
This time around (last month) I settled on a hardly used Mercedes E320 wagon with 14k mi. It offers much of the space and utility of the med size SUVs I've owned, and it's much easier to get in and out of (even the minuscule 3rd seat in the rear). Sure, I was hesitant to buy a used vehicle at first, but the beauty of it, as far as I'm concerned, is that for about the price of a new SUV with all the options I'd like (lthr, sunrf, etc), I have a luxurious wagon that in a couple of years will be worth much more than any SUV I would have bought. And, hey, while there are plenty around, at least not everyone on the block has one!
I'm convinced wagons are making a huge comeback for, among other things, the very reason I bought one.
Congrats on the E320! It's got a big booty but it's still a class act of a car.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
The E-class wagon is a keeper. That thing will still be doing duty 20 years from now.
-juice