Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

210delray · July 2001

... the bottom part of the invoice from one of her many contacts in the sludge world?

I hasten to add not to fxashun, but to the person whose name appears at the top of the invoice?

Just speculating. This is really getting curiouser and curiouser!

Has anyone checked if the part numbers are valid for a Sienna V6?

catgem · July 2001

You have sure been busy while I have been moving! Pilot, you seem quite revived! I am now here in suburban Chicago, just got back on line tonight,cannot believe how many postings I had to read. Pilot, I so wish you were right, and that I or my invoice were fake! When I got this car over a year ago, I wanted a reliable car. It was so weird when they mentioned sludge BEFORE they even looked inside! I was greeted by a letter notifying me that my case is slated for arbitration here within 40 days. Pilot, what kind of friend is your guy who says he calls Cobb County Toyota? He must be tired and frustrated, played out, as they say. Not you, of course, but your friend. However, anyone with common sense would know that it does not behoove CCT to discuss a case which might end up in court!!

fxashun · July 2001

Good point. I actually tried to call you today (to try and verify the invoice) then I thought about your move. Glad to see you (and your Sienna) made it OK.
Here we go again. Let's blame ...
1. Catgem for maybe providing a false receipt.
2. It's a fraud because of the way it's
presented.
3. IT'S CHARLENE!!!!!!
This forum is hilarious. What's so curious? Pilot has shown several times that his grasp of the obvious (and the truth) are at best precarious. This is just another example.

catgem · July 2001

Fxashun, you sure were right about the roads here! Lots of potholes, even out in the burbs....Who am I? I am not Charlene, or her evil twin. I actually e-mailed her when I first "got sludged", but her responses with attachments were really weird, so I did not continue. Well, I have not worked in 16 years, have been a homeschooling mom. Yes, I know, lots of homeschoolers are nuts, but Georgia does rank 49th in SAT scores, just wanted my kids to have a good education... and my spelling and grammar are pretty good. I will be returning to work this fall, as the kids will be in school. And by the way, movers are on my hit list also; had the move from hell. What can I say? Toyota really cannot discuss my invoice; what would that do to their case in arbitration? I have also sent them certified letters. Pilot, in your youth didn't you ever watch Perry Mason? Did you really think your pal would get those canaries to sing? I had fought them from the get-go, albeit nicely. I am the last case they would ever discuss with anyone!

cholowicki · August 2001

I am not Ms. Blake. I am not sure why you would suggest that, as my car is a Camry, not a Sienna. I have provided details and answered questions about my situation as people have posed them, but my main interest in posting here was to get in touch with others who had been through the arbitration process. Since Catgem is just starting the process (same as me), there wasn't much help for me here. I still check in time to time to see what the latest and greatest is on the topic, hoping to find someone else who has been through arbitration and is willing to talk about it. This is not the only place I posted, and if you are interested in contacting me, see my post on the complaintstation, as my e-mail address is available there. I have also posted or filed complaints with the FTC, NHTSA, Yotarepair, Lemonaidcars, & Camry man forum.

I followed Catgem's advise and sent a certified, return receipt letter to my dealership, copying in the Mr. Yoshi Inaba & the lease company, on Friday 7/27. I also faxed the letter to the dealership as a "head's up." Amazingly, I got a phone call from them within an hour. The main complaint in my letter was that neither the service rep nor the asst. sales mgr. would even look at my maintenance records or consider any other possible cause other than "poor maintenance." They have now contacted the factory rep to meet with me Aug.9th at the dealership to review my paperwork and discuss the situation. Honestly, I am no more hopeful that they will honor their warranty, but I guess we'll see.

I mentioned the underbody damage done to my vehicle in a previous accident (replaced radiator, coolant, condensor assembly, freon & freon oil. Repaired cor support, lower radiator support hardware. Replaced front Y pipe to exhaust, gasket set, exhaust bracket, trans pan & fluid.) Perhaps these repairs were not done properly, or there was something kinked or bent that they missed that is leading to the engine running hot and sludging?

In any case, I also requested a detailed, written estimate on the engine replacement along with an explanation of why the warranty is not being honored, to be faxed to me. The general sales manager agreed to send this to me, but I have not seen anything yet. I will provide this (once I have it), along with my maintenance records, to fxashun to post for your scrutiny. I am not interested in running Toyota's name through the mud, I just want the car repaired, under the warranty, without being blown off. My main complaint is with the total lack of genuine customer service that I have faced since this began on July 10th.

catgem · August 2001

You are really doing this by the book; Clark Howard (a consumer advocate) would be impressed. I will keep you all posted on the arbitration process. No response to MY certified letter. I guess Cobb County Toyota has been too busy talking to Pilot's "friend". It is so much easier to pretend that problems do not exist! Wish mine did not. I am also disgusted at the totally rude way Toyota has treated me. Even though my car is paid for, I am still a customer! In the current lingo, they have totally dissed me. In the arbitration hearing, I will get to make an oral presentation. I will make it short and sweet.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2001

Yes, please give us details of the arbitration meeting. Many visitors here are interested in the actual blow by blow of an arbitration hearing (you can leave out anything too personal)...more like how it is set up, who speaks first, how the meeting is conducted, and what the arbitrator does to "set the scene" beforehand. Thanks for that in advance.

RE: Engine failures---I know it may come as a shock, but EVERY manufacturer has premature engine failures. It comes with the statistical probabilities of mass production. I've seen Mercedes engines fly apart at 600 miles (rare, but it happens) and if you pick ANY prestige car dealership and sit in the parking lot for a day, you'll see some pretty nice cars coming in on the hook.

mrnimmo · August 2001

>>Mrnimmo... Sorry, I don't know were you got the idea I said it was goop on a GM, but sludge on a Toyota.

I didn't say that. You called it goop, and say it's not Chevy's fault and not a problem. (I agree.) Most Sludgies call it sludge here and say it means an engine is shot due to something Toyota did.

>>I know some goop on the cap can be normal(as stated in the post you copied). That is why I asked Brentwoodvolvo if the valve covers were removed. It takes more then goop on the cap for an engine to have sludge.

Agreed. The Sludgies seem to think that looking at your oil cap tells you something about whether or not there is sludge in an engine. Of course, most sludgies don't seem to understand ash, sludge, varnish, or other engine deposits or what it means when you find one. I would doubt than any of these avowed mechanical experts, who can diagnose major engine design problems by looking on the cap, have ever done any mechanical work in thieir life. And, of course, the Petroleum Engineer who was on her earlier, trying to enlighten, is part of the conspiracy (along with all the consumer groups, CR, and govt agencies) since he says it must due oil failure or lack of maintenance.

>>You are the Weakest Link... Goodbye!

Never liked that show anyway. I don't even remember applying! Besides, if Bill Walton ("dude, i don't remember the 60's... or 70's... or 80's) can do well, I wouldn't want to...

Wasted toooooo much time with these fools.

bearmer · August 2001

There is a well known tendency of all the members of GM's family of 60 degree V-6s to leak internally at the intake manifold gasket. These engines are the 2.8L, 3.1L and 3.4L. The leak contaminates the crankcase with antifreeze and the mixture begins to emulsify. An emulsion which looks like dirty mayonnaise collects inside the valve covers. This emulsion isn't the problem. Ethylene glycol destroys the lubricating properties of oil. By the time the emulsion is noticed, the engine has friction damage.

I don't own a Toyota, but I think there is more than one engine problem being discussed here. It sounds to me like the black sludge is cooked oil being caused by abnormally high temperature. If some of these engines are emulsifying their oil, has anybody checked for antifreeze in the crankcase?

hiwaysanity · August 2001

introduce common sense into this discussion? Don't you know that this can't possibly be an individual problem, it's a Toyota Corporate secret - thousands of engines and ripped-off consumers are involved!

;^)

catgem · August 2001

That having been said, if it is even one engine, Toyota should stand behind their product, and fix it. If it happens to only a few of their cars, how costly would that be? If it is happening to more than a few, the question is why??

hiwaysanity · August 2001

They should indeed. If it's their problem. That's really the only question being batted around here. There seems to be little doubt the engine was sludged. Well, as I said before, it could be a dealer scam, but that is pretty doubtful.

The only question, in my mind anyway, is why did it sludge? There are at least as many possibilities that don't involve Totota responsibility, as there are that do. If the car sufferred under-car damage in a prior accident, that becomes a prime area of suspicion, especially if it involved the cooling system. That brings the repair facility that repaired the accident damage into the picture.

bob57 · August 2001

There are three Sienna's on my block (including mine). Two are 91's (high mileage) and one is a 92. The only person having "ANY kind" of problem was me - the rear wiper blade had to be replaced - under warranty.
What sludge? None in ours....!

lancerfixer · August 2001

You know, seeing as the Sienna was introduced for the 1998 model year.

fezo · August 2001

Nice spike. You were set up well....

black01coupev6 · August 2001

lancerfixer · August 2001

Well, I know Toyota makes great cars and all, but I don't think they've yet installed the "Warp the Fabric of Space-time" option on their vans.

lancerfixer · August 2001

Sometimes the ball just falls into your part of the court just right.

210delray · August 2001

... who said his friend or relative once had a 1978 Corvair!

bob57 · August 2001

Re: My previous post (1163) - while I was sleeping....
My brain was running 10 years behind - hey, I was close

)
I meant '01 & 02 Sienna's.
I was talking to my wife about what I had read and what I posted on this chat and she was looking at me rather weird - come to think of it, she always looks at me weird..... Then she wanted to know who had the '91 & '92 Sienna's. At this point of realization & a mouth full of dinner I had to beat my son off the computer with a $10 bribe before everyone commented on this.
I was obviously just a "tad" too late - like, are you guys living on this thing or what?
I just wanted to make the point (prior to my Alzheimer's outbreak...) that the Sienna has been a fine automobile in my opinion. I have driven Honda's for the last 12 years and they too have been trouble free - except for the salesmen...

hiwaysanity · August 2001

Good return!

smwls8 · August 2001

but that is not the issue. The issue is the way Toyota(and Lexus) fail to honor their warranty if possible under any excuse. Look at Car and Driver magazine's experience with a 40,000 mile test of a Lexus RX300. Lexus refused to repair a low mile RX300's shifter boot on an AUTOMATIC transmission due to "driver abuse"? I guess moving the shifter from park to reverse to drive is considered abuse if the shifter boot works loose to the point the shifter won't move out of park without herculean force being applied?

This is not a blanket characterization of all Toyota stores, but it has happened too frequently to get my business, regardless of the quality of their product.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2001

Nice save, bob! (You people are SO talented here on the court).

I'm sorry, I'm not buying this "unusually high combustion chamber temperatures"....ALL modern engines run at very scary temperatures (which is why many cars do not have numerical heat gauges--owners would freak out). A hot engine is generally a happy engine, within reason of course. And if "all" Toyota engines ran so hot as to cook their oils, well, then, this would not be a viable product to sell, would it?

To the contrary, sludge is more commonly found (very often actually) in marine engines, and that is because they run too cool and do not reach proper operating temperatures. You wanna talk sludge, talk to a marine mechanic. Any of you around Town Hall?

fxashun · August 2001

Is caused by it's own set of circumstances that pertain to that environment. The sludging was explained to me that these engine run hotter in the upper cylinder area. this breaks down the oil at a faster rate than most engines. If you change your oil every 3000 miles there will be no problems. But 5000 and 7000 is pushing it a bit in severe circustances. That's what's at issue now. Should Toyota fix engines that have sludge when proper maintenance has been shown? The owner's manual has been deemed the culprit.

marshal1 · August 2001

I just want to remind everyone that we're on the internet. It's basically the wild, wild west of the printed word. Anything and everything gets posted. Including fact, fiction, opinion, propaganda, delusions, distortions, etc. You must research and verify what you read before you accept it as fact. This message board is one of the worst I have seen for inaccurate information being accepted as gospel. P.T. Barnum once said that there is a sucker born every minute. On the internet, there is a sucker logging in every second.

mrnimmo · August 2001

I try to leave, but I cannot. But then the volleyball game catches my attention.
I'm addicted to SLUDGE!!!!

Folks, if these engines run hotter, that is an easily documentable fact, is it not? Oil temps and water temps can be easily measured. Head temps can be measured, albeit with slightly more trouble. So all you guys and gals (only one person as far as I can tell) running off to court or mediation will have evidence--actual facts--in hand, not just speculation from the never-turned-a-wrench automotive experts on this board, right?

fxashun · August 2001

Comes from "always-turning-wrenches" ASE certified mechanics. Also other people with the same "speculation" have asked mechanics and got the same answer. But once again this is turning it back on the engine. The question is now should Toyota honor the warranty work for people who have sludge and reciepts. Because if all engines sludge it seems the other makes must be honoring the warranties because thier engines aren't being reported.

joe3891 · August 2001

By the # of posts per day I would call this social sludge.

smc13 · August 2001

Just out of curiousity, has anyone tried taking the VIN number of the vehicle and gone to carfax.com to look up the vehicle history?

cholowicki · August 2001

how to document the temperature measurements in a completely seized up engine??? If there had been any indication of a problem before this point, that might have been an option.

fxashun · August 2001

Refer to post 1150.

sgergen · August 2001

I think the point of #1179 was not that the VIN was altered or in dispute, CarFax.com would give the vehicle's history and tell if it had been trashed.

I doubt she would have left that detail out of the scenario though.

Scott

smc13 · August 2001

I was thinking that maybe carfax.com would have a listing of the repair that is in dispute. I haven't used carfax.com so I don't know how much of a vehicle history it shows.

zueslewis · August 2001

like any other major manufacturer has warranty representatives that make it their job (because it is) to deny warranty claims when possible. As a former service manager, I've had to argue for consumers on many occasions (which goes completely unappreciated by the consumer) and have lost many arguments to the factory rep.

They're just like insurance adjusters - they'll pay the claim as long as all the planets align and we find the answer to world peace - but if there's ANYTHING the least bit out of place - FAHGEDABOWDID!

fxashun · August 2001

But if you ask me that's just another one to add to the list of excuses.
1. Oil change place.
2. Lack of maintenance.
3. Driving very severely instead of regular severe.
4. Changing oil brands.
5. Oil companies making cheaper oil.
6. People flat out lying.
7. Others I've forgotten.
8. Now we have accidents causing sludge.
Even if any of the above were actually causing this, why is it only these two Toyota engines. Toyota has a lot of other models that are as dependable as....well....a Toyota.

pilot13 · August 2001

As you no doubt know, there's a fine line between the two, Fxashun. That list is only a small portion of all the possible variables, wouldn't you agree?
Surely one of the more common reasons (or is it an excuse?) is your No. 6--and that's already been nicely illustrated here, hasn't it.

hiwaysanity · August 2001

had to argue with customers who wanted warranty coverage they didn't deserve?

In a former life I managed a tire store, and warranty adjustments were almost always difficult. Some customers deserved some credit from the company, others did not. You must have experienced both situations also.

Who is to say which is the case here? We are hearing only one side.

Maybe some warranty coverage is deserved here - I sure can't tell, and I don't think anyone else can either from what we've seen. The only thing I am reasonable sure of is that there is not a major sludge problem at Toyota, that is being covered up to screw consumers out of what they deserve. If anything, the cases we've heard of here are isolated occurances like those that occur with any car.

catgem · August 2001

1. Why Toyota so quickly denied my claim, and mentioned sludge BEFORE they even pulled the oil pans. Makes you wonder if they have ever seen this before. That having been said, I do not think that this is a widespread problem. I do think that they HAVE seen this happen before, hence the rapid referance to Sludge.
2. Why the pilot insists on calling me a liar, simply because Toyota is (as any idiot would know!!!)not at liberty to discuss my cases, for LEGAL reasons!!! DUH!!!! Go ahead, pull my car history. There is none, except routine maintenance. Pilot, why don't you go back to the board on how the Apollo moon landing never happened?

fxashun · August 2001

Then there would be people here with Corollas Echos and other makes of cars since every one of those circumstances can happen to any other car. It seems strange that this is isolated to the 2.2I4 and 3.0V6 only. Which ONE of those excuses/reasons can be isolated to ONLY these engines.
The only constant among nearly every post about sludge is these engines.
Going back to an analogy I used a long time ago... Sure someone CAN catch lung cancer without smoking. And some smokers won't catch lung cancer. But it seems smokers have the highest occurrence of it.
Just like these engines seem to have the higher occurrence of sludge.

lokki · August 2001

It's better than the Kennedy Assasination theories.

Statistics? We don't need no stinkin' statistics!

All those poor millions of Toyota owners, buying those cars and then having to buy new engines.... clever Toyota, clever. Sell people a car and within a year or two sell them an engine at a cost of 25 percent of the value of the car, and then when they come in for service... brainwash them so they forget! Only a few escape the Manchurian Candidate treatment.... but no one will believe them!

Only the faithful Faxshun is left to tell the tale.

Catgem is the only case I've see so far that I have much faith in. We have another claim but nothing documented like Catgem has been willing to do for us.

But even so, that makes two... if we count all cases ever heard of, what do we have? Perhaps 100? Out of millions of Toyotas....Come on!

Unless..... The CIA is involved with Toyota... that would change everything. Somebody call Oliver Stone.

210delray · August 2001

When I took my Toyota Camry in for the blue smoke problem, sludge was also mentioned to me BEFORE the valve cover was pulled.

But if you describe the symptoms your car is having, a good mechanic can diagnose the possible or even likely reasons -- so to me it's not that surprising if your car is smoking and sputtering that oil sludging would be mentioned.

But I had no problem getting warranty coverage, no factory rep was called in, etc. for getting the valve stem seals replaced. No sludge as it turned out, with 5000-mile oil changes.

210delray · August 2001

Your post slipped in ahead of mine. But we do have the answer:

"The owner's manual has been deemed the culprit."

You know, those sneaky owners manuals, always up to no good when you're not looking.

marshal1 · August 2001

You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself any direction you choose. You're on your own. And you know what you know. And you are the one who'll decide where to go.

marshal1 · August 2001

I work at Sears by eharri3 Aug 02, 2001 (09:53 am)
I sell lawn tractors, mowers, and other high end equipment. I'd say roughly ten percent of the equipment returned has actual manufacturing defects. Roughly 9 out of ten returns though are due to owner negligence or improper maintenance. Examples: People hitting rocks with their lawn mowers and then complaining because they had to pay 200 dollars for a new crankshaft, or people who don't know how to make the right mixture for a two cycle engine and then try to return their weed wacker when it smokes and is hard to start because they put in the wrong mix. I must say, it's pretty frustrating to have people abuse their product or use it wrong and then blame me for selling them something defective.

Any dealers or service techs with similar stories? Obvious cases of improper or negligent maintenance, but the owner wanted to complain and blame manufacturer's defect anyway in hopes of getting free repairs?

smarttrac · August 2001

Have a '98 Toyota Sienna that has under 30,000 miles on it and had oil changes every 5,000 miles. It started smoking and Toyota told us that it was because of "lack of, or improper, maintenance," and will not be covered under warranty. Not interested in receipts I had for all servicing. "They could have charged you for an oil change and not done it" was the explanation. I have a friend who manages the used car service department for a large dealership conglomerate and preps 600 trade-ins per month. He said that sludging is a common problem on Toyota and Lexus 3.0 V6 engines and showed me three cars with the problem that he currently was working on.
Toyota will not do anything about this problem unless it becomes public knowledge and threatens their reputation for reliability.

armtdm · August 2001

I don't really care if the sludging is a common issue or not. What I care about is that if the owner (even if only one out of a million) followed the manual and the engine sludged for whatever reason, nitration, PCV bad, air filter bad, plugs, etc. if the oil was changed at 5000 as the manual says it should be, then at 15,000 miles it has to be covered under warranty. I see no way out of this by toyota and that is why I continue to read this board, unless someone can say that it is owner error, there is no logical reason for an engine to sludge at 15,000 miles if the oil anf filter was changed every 5000 miles. Within 15,000 miles there are no other maintenance items to do, it has to be a warranty issue! Oil changes are the only maintenance at under 30,000 miles, if done and engine blows it is Toyota's obligation to repair, period!!!! A bad PCV, air filter, plug is all warranty at this mileage.

zueslewis · August 2001

have I had to argue warranty coverage with a customer. I had a lady with a '97 Camaro Z-28 that came in with a check engine light and the vehicle running rough, no acceleration, etc. My tech pulled no codes, so he went further and checked the oil - it was black (like used oil is, and that's another story) and 1 1/2 quarts low.

Stumped, we pulled the drain plug and it took verbal motivation to get the oil to come out.

When I asked her when she last changed her oil, she stated and I quote "it hadn't given me a problem, so I didn't worry about it". We had a 33,400 mile LT-1 that had NEVER had the oil changed. Can you say SLUDGE?

She was pissed, wanted to sue, wanted get her brother in to beat me up, etc when I explained she would have to buy a new $6300 LT-1. Called Chevrolet Customer Assistance, which was the WRONG thing to do since they directly called me and I told them what was up.

Note to consumers - if you want a service advisor to squeak a warranty repair order through and the circumstances aren't perfect, don't whine to the manufacturer, make them call the advisor and make the advisor tell the truth and shoot you in the foot. DOH!

I worked for Super Shops for 3 years - high performance auto parts and lots of tires and wheels - I know what you mean about the difficulty of tire warranty adjustments. How do you "warranty adjust" a tire that has the white letters beaten off it because it was curbed 117,000 times?

john319 · August 2001

A new poster who had never posted in Edmunds all of a sudden comes into this topic and tell of their 30k miles Sienna and Sludge. The more I read these posts the more I see how much BS is written on the internet.

fxashun · August 2001

SAY that they have SOME proof on maintenance. Unlike your LT-1 story, Catgem's Sienna only had 16K on it. That lady admitted she didn't change her oil but Catgem says she DID have SOME proof on maint. These scenarios are totally different.

Post1198-How else do people pop up on Edmunds? I'm not defending or refuting post 1195 but how else are new people going to post here. There's bound to be new people here now and then. Instead of flaming the new person wait and see what they have to say. Geez. I don't remember seeing your screen name in here much either.

I lawn mower with a broken crankshaft and a chunk out of the blade and deck are pretty easy to explain. A tire with no sidewall is easy to explain. But no one has been able to explain why certain engines have been singled out to have sludge even though maintenance reciepts show oil changes. Post 1196 said it best.

zueslewis · August 2001

know where the sludge situation comes from - at the Chrysler dealer I worked at, we had a '98 Sienna come in as a used car, we did the normal check, then delivered it to the new buyer. A few days later it was towed in, check engine light on, not running well, etc. We couldn't get any definitive codes out of it and pulled a valve cover finding a quarter inch of junk. We took it to a Toyota dealer where they promptly refused warranty work on it - and we HAD the maintenance records from the previous owner showing pretty regular maintenance. Talking to a guy at the Toyota dealer off the record, he told me about "very poor oil flow through the heads and deck", but "Toyota wasn't about to open that can of worms". He said Toyota would turn these cases down one at a time!

Our dealership ended up buying the van back, tearing down the motor and cleaning everything - $1800 in labor, $200 in parts and 4 cases of carb cleaner and hours in the parts washer.

Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles