Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

sgergen · October 2001

How many more beligerant and offensive posts are you going to allow from Gimpy?

I don't think I stand alone when I say that with his attitude and name-calling he's crossed the line.

Actually, it's pretty sad that I even have to bring it up.

Scott

catgem · October 2001

I was thinking of you when posted,guess I forgot to include gimp or myself. I am looking for a job,had to take out a loan to pay for sludge. I would have felt MUCH better if Toyota had given me a break on the costs. It meant NOTHING to them that I had bought the car there!! I was a customer,shouldn't that count for something? i guess not!!! Their day WILL come!!!

isellhondas · October 2001

From the distant sidelines...my advise?

Give it a rest.

We all get your point.

csandste · October 2001

He's gone after me, but one of the reasons I read this topic is because of the passions involved. Give him a break. If I had a bunch of people telling me I didn't have a leg to stand on, I'd be po'd too.

a_l_hubcaps · October 2001

I am not currently a Toyota owner, so I really can't say what the deal is. However, I do know that my dad bought a 1985 Toyota Tercel new in 1984 and drove it on short trips daily for 14 years and 95,000 miles with no engine failure issues whatsoever. I know he didn't change the oil every 3K miles; it was probably well over 5K most of the time. The car was still running when he got rid of it in 1998 due to rust, a bad radiator, and chronic brake problems. From what I've seen, the bottom line is this: It's always good to maintain cars well and change oil every 3K miles. If you do that with any car, it should last a long time. However, Toyotas have a reputation for being able to take a lot of abuse and continue running. That doesn't mean you're *supposed* to abuse them. It's just that a product's ability to withstand abuse is an indication that it is extremely well-made. Old Toyotas from the 70s and 80s were known for their ability to withstand such abuse. Apparently, some new ones lack this ability, if the reports of sludge-induced engine failure are true. I agree 100% with the people who say that, if you follow the maintenance schedule, you won't have problems. They're right. But the fact that people who don't follow the schedule are having big-money failures at 25,000 miles indicates that Toyota solidity is not what it once was.
-Andrew L

sgergen · October 2001

Actually I have almost 28,000 miles now. I change oil every 3,000 miles (even though the dealer recommends 3,750). My local Toyota has an express lube as part of their service department so I have always had the oil changed there. Don't know what brand they use, but it's 5W-30 and there are no additional additives (at least per my receipt). I live in Minnesota, just on the south side of the Twin Cities.

Scott

gimpyrx · October 2001

They said, BRING IT IN, WE WILL HONOR THE WARRANTY! OH WELL.
C-YA.

suvshopper4 · October 2001

That's good news for you, gimpyrx.
May you get everything you deserve.

-"STILL clueless"

acuraowner · October 2001

This has kind of amazed me since reading through the majority of these posts. How can they claim "poor maintenance" even though you could have your oil change receipts for every oil change.

What are you supposed to do. Arm yourself with a video camera and record every time you check your oil, add oil or get your oil changed?

"Hi Toyota, Im filling up with gas so I am going to document that I am checking my oil".

Mr_Shiftright · October 2001

The offending posts have been deleted. Please be patient. Your Host can't be online 24/7.

thanks for the heads-up. I trust people will try to be more civil in this discussion, so the host doesn't have to watch over you all day!

best,
Mr. Shiftright

PS: And let up on gimpyrx, please, and gimpy, you can just calm down now.

fxashun · October 2001

I agree with you.

And the "abuse" of going 7500 miles between changes baffles me when it's in the manual. Where's the abuse?

adc100 · October 2001

Civilty on Edmund's is better than any board I post on. Let's keep it that way.

lokki · October 2001

Lexus honored a warranty claim for sludge.... despite the fact that the owner obviously didn't follow the oil change requirements....

Isn't Lexus part of the evil Toyota empire who never accept sludge claims?

seelig · October 2001

but if someone feels great saying it, then who cares........i like to think that a few of us have hashed out some good scenarios. there's always a lot to learn, and edmunds is a great place to come to for useful info. even though i drive rados, i had a problem a while back that, through info posted by another member, helped me to get a steering shaft replaced. if a claim for this mechanical failure that resulted in the sludge was honored (even though regular maintenance wasn't followed), then it would be only right for the member to post his facts. at least that way all the other folks with this problem may take advantage of the possibilities. the proof is in the pudding..........

fxashun · October 2001

the invoice stating warranty repair on the RX. The VIN and address can be blocked out, just a copy of the invoice will suffice. Just for giggles.

hicaira · October 2001

It may be, in fact, what Lexus calls "Goodwill". Toyota (and more so Lexus) often provide goodwill repairs to customers. Unfortunately, it is inconsistant from dealer to dealer and is often based on how strong a relationship a buyer has to a dealer (how many cars purchased, service history, attitude, etc.) I do believe that it shows up as warranty coverage though.

Whether gimpy really deserves it though (more than, say catgem) is the questionable part.

HiC

hiwaysanity · October 2001

we're hearing only one side of these stories . . .

catgem · October 2001

Today I called the company which makes Revere cooking pots. I have a pan which had the handle come loose. They are sending me a brand new pot,free of charge,because my warranty covers me. No one questioned me as to how the handle became loose. The cost of a new pan is $30. The goodwill generated is priceless!!! Now,let us suppose that upon bringing in a sludged Sienna to Toyota,that they told you that apparantly something was done incorrectly with your oil changes,but as a gesture of goodwill,and because you had been such a good customer,they would split the repair costs with you!! Some cost to Toyota,priceless goodwill!!! The cookware people are doing it right!!!

adc100 · October 2001

I don't think it is really fair to compare the two-$30 pan vs $25,000 vehicle. Toyota feels that owner neglect is involved and needs to take a stand. Companies repair or replace "pocket change" items routinely in my experience.
Al

armtdm · October 2001

The actual cost to rebuild that engine in parts is truly peanuts. It is in the labor end of it. Since dealers claim they get so little money under warranty work they have a huge reluctance to take it on either.

catgem · October 2001

I would think that my lack of goodwill would be more costly to them ,than would the cost of helping with the repairs. And remember, I WAS one of their customers!!!

armtdm · October 2001

I agree with you.

I sort of understand the dealer's point of view that if a customer does not return for regular service there is a reluctance to go to bat for the customer for warranrty, which they have the ability to do. My problem is that it is such a hassle to return to them for normal service, tons of paperwork, higher priced, ( oil they use is not my quality synthetic) always trying to sell you more service then needed etc. and in many instances perform less then optimal work. So, I do a lot of basics myself and avoid dealers like a disease. This of course does me no good if I want warranty work but so far I have been lucky in that regard. Calling for appointments, paperwork, pushing unneededservice is simply not worth the hassle to me. I do it myself or I have an independent I trust.

So how do dealers gain back the service work, I wish I knew! I will bet 90% of all customers drop the dealer from service the month after the warranty expires. So extend the waranty to 100,000 miles and get the service back?

suvshopper4 · October 2001

catgem:
How much profit does Toyota make each time you buy one of their vehicles?
How much would it cost to repair your engine?

How much profit do you think Revere made from the pan (or, more likely, *set* of pans) you bought from them?
How much did it cost them to send you one new pan?

I agree, goodwill with one customer is worth a lot. But how much?

jj35 · October 2001

This is more than an effort of "goodwill". It is better described as good customer service. It can also be called "keeping a promise". Revere Ware guarantees the longevity of their product. If it doesn't hold up to their guarantee (promise) they will repair or replace it at their cost. Toyota, on the other hand, is not keeping it's "promise" that I got when I bought my Sienna in the form of the vehicle warranty. They will end up paying for the repurcussions of poor customer service - which indeed could be more costly than good customer service would have cost.

csandste · October 2001

if so, it's a complicated one being on so many different websites.

I've never been a Toyota hater, but their attitude convinces me that they have a horrible problem with customer service. This is more important to me than JD Power ratings or other statistical indications of quality. It's not just a numerical count that matters, its how the company treats you. Count me out. Catgem and others, I'd pull up some of the other sites that mention class action suits and jump on it!

hicaira · October 2001

As you said: "So how do dealers gain back the service work, I wish I knew! I will bet 90% of all customers drop the dealer from service the month after the warranty expires. So extend the waranty to 100,000 miles and get the service back?"

There is another way that dealers can keep the service. They can treat their customers with respect, they can stop pushing needless services, they can perform quality work at competitive prices, and they can offer special incentives (inexpensive ones at that) to regular customers. Unfortunately, very few dealers meet all those qualifications but they are out there and worth looking for.

HiC

armtdm · October 2001

Over the past 9 years I have seen my Toyota dealers, well, two of them, several times and have not been impressed with their product expertise or service. the most discouraging item has been disagreements over what maintenance needs to be done, that is between my Toyota Service Manual (not owners but service manual) and their service reps. We have had conference calls with Toyota where mechanic disagrees with the manufacturer. Anyway, I have little confidence in their technicians or expertise and after this board their warranty or word..

After 9 years, (great car basically) I would need a change of manufacturers if I decide to change cars, they have not impressed me on any front and a hassle to work with. Plus, I feel their current crop of vehicles are boring. My V6 in the 92 is the same basic V6 that is in the 2002 Camry, unlike other manufacturers they have not improved the engine as they feel it is great the way it is. From this board it could be gathered they cheapened the product as well.

hicaira · October 2001

I won't disagree with you on where Toyota has gone with it's product line (Much more interesting offerings from the competition - except for the Land Cruiser). After 6 toyotas, my next car will be something else. Not due to a lack of reliability or decent service though(I have always been lucky in both regards with Toy), but due to uninspired and overpriced offerings.

HiC

majorthomecho · October 2001

The service techs recommend more stringent maintenance that what Toyota does, but I am not too upset. This is because they are not doing anything different than the service techs at the dealerships of the other cars I have owned and these were Ford products.

I have a friend who owned a Neon and the Dodge dealership did the same thing with her.

Extra service recommendation might be a "problem," but it is not limited to Toyota dealerships.

fxashun · October 2001

was a 1987 FX16 GT-S not counting my Lexus. I owned a 1991 MR2 Turbo also among the many others. But I agree they don't make the product that they used to. The Supra was awesome but it was priced as such. They need to put the sportiness ack in the products they had back in the late 80's early 90's. But then again they are steadily growing so maybe we just are a fringe part of the market that they don't care about anymore.
That being said can't wait til 2005 when I can get myself a 2001 5 speed IS300.

210delray · October 2001

Now has 76K miles, haven't spent more than a few dollars on other than normal maintenance and wear items, such as oil, filters, fluids, tires, and wiper blades. (I'm excluding crash damage, which wasn't the car's fault -- the first time I hit a deer; the second time the car was hit in a parking lot.)

Decontented? Maybe, but it gets the job done!

stealth1969 · October 2001

I would like to make a point about the cost to Toyota about helping to fix the sludge. I have no plans on ever buying another Toyota. Not because of the sludge, but because of thier lack of customer service. They made about $1k on me. I don't know how much they made when they sold me the Seinna, but I would have been more than willing to buy more cars from them in the future. In fact my lease was up in August. I did not go back to the dealer to get another Toyota, I made other arrangments. Also when people asked me about my Toyota I told them about the lack of customer service and they decide to mot buy a Toyota. They would have made more then the $1k from me over time and I would have been a very strong supporter recommending Toyotas. But no. It is thier choice and now mine where I put my money down.

cholowicki · October 2001

I was perfectly happy with my '99 Camry until July 10th. My lease had 9 more months on it and my only question was whether I would lease a new one or buy out my current car. I also told anyone who asked what a great car it was, but not now. Thanks to the total lack of customer service I received from both Toyota and the Red Holman dealership, I will never buy another Toyota.

An excellent quality control statistics instructor once taught us that a consumer that is pleased with the customer service they receive will tell an average of 7-10 people about their experience. A consumer that is disappointed with their experience will tell 10-20 people, and if the consumer is angry or upset about their experience they will never stop talking about it. There is no more powerful advertising, positive or negative, than word of mouth. If Toyota hasn't figured that out yet, they will when it starts hitting their bottom line.

210delray · October 2001

For every disgruntled Camry or Sienna owner, there's probably 10 Taurus or Windstar owners who've soured on their purchases, ditto for Intrepid and Grand Caravan.

fxashun · October 2001

A couple days ago I got ticked at the local Wal-Mart. But where else am I to go? No ones cheaper than Wal-Mart. So I trudged back in in a couple of days. I don't think there's enough actual engine failures due to this problem for Toyota to worry about. Folk that know more about this than we do have obviously run the numbers and deemed this a beatable issue.
Remember the guy in "Fight Club"? His job was to mathematically determine the risk a company had if they didn't resolve certain issues.

lbthedog · October 2001

To say that there are probably 10 times as many "disgruntled owners" of other vehicles, kind of puts this into perspective. Not to say that this acceptable but the perception is this allowable because it is being done by "Toyota". Some people will be angry that the ashtray door on their Saturn fell off. Some people will be angry because the motor in their Sienna coagulated. Both may be sour on their experience. From what I've gathered here and there, Toyota blew it. Either they have a serious mechanical problem or some overzealous marketing guru re wrote the maintenance schedule so he could pitch "7500 mile oil changes". A few owners are paying for their screw-up. Funny thing is, I get the impression that Toyota figures this whole thing will blow over. We'll see.

jjstokes0430 · October 2001

I just purchased a new Grand Prix Pontiac from a dealer that has provided me with good service for many years. Is my new Pontiac the best car I could have bought? I doubt it. GM has always treated me fairly especially my local dealer. I probably would have bought a Toyota but all the negative comments have scared me off. Maybe Toyota had better start paying attention to their customer service issues.

majorthomecho · October 2001

I did a search through Google.com using the words Ford engine sludge and I found some things that might be of interest.

This first link goes to an article about sludge in a Ford product.

http://www.cardogz.com/columns/auto/archive/2001_04_09.shtml

This second link goes to an article about sludge in a Chevrolet product.

http://www.startribune.com/cars/21259.html

And for those who think that it is strange that Toyota specifically mentions sludge in reference to the warranty, well, Ford mentions sludge also. Click on the link below and then scroll down for the section entitled, Parts And Services Not Covered.

http://www.qualitycareservice.com/6004.asp

fxashun · October 2001

The first one had no reciepts, the second was an 1987 model and the third specifically mentions negligence first. That would go along with the first link in which the guy specifically asked the customer for receipts. Toyota does not care about the reciepts. In addition there compare the number of sludged posts in Ford that are low mileage engines of any one type to the number of them under the Toyota V6 or I4 there is no comparison.

majorthomecho · October 2001

The point is that the first deals with someone who went beyond the oil change interval although in this case, it does not look like the oil was changed at all.

The second deals with the fact that engines other than those from Toyota do get it.

The third was for people who thought that it was strange for Toyota to specifically mention sludge in their warranty information. I think the wording is secondary.

Toyota does imply that sludging is caused by negligence. They do say it is important for you to follow the guidelines in the service manual.

FWIW, a search through Google returned more than just those three hits, but I did not have time to go through and look at over four thousand web pages.

BTW, I give people benefit of the doubt that Toyota does not care about the receipts, but remember, we are only hearing one side of the story.

cliffy1 · October 2001

Over the weekend in another topic, I was asked about recurring problems on Toyotas. I was asked if there were any beyond sticking power doors. I responded with information about the 90 to 97 truck engines.

Upon further reflection, I made another post talking about engine sludge. Yes, I have seen a large number of Camrys with sludged engines. There is a catch to this though and the problem is rapidly disappearing.

You see, every one I saw go through the shop was a three year old car. Every one was at the end of its lease. The retail trade-ins never seemed to have this issue. It seems, lease customers didn't care enough about their cars to bother with pesky things like oil changes.

Starting in '96 and continuing through the '98 model year, Toyota had some unbelievable lease deals. The residuals were very high and therefore, payments were very low. You would have been a fool to buy one rather than lease it at the time. Our leasing penetration ran over 40% on all units and this was much higher on Camrys. All those leases ended between '99 and '01.

In the '99 model year, Toyota realized that it was in trouble on these leases. They were loosing millions at auction and they dramatically lowered residual values which made leasing far less attractive. Leasing penetration has dropped to less than 20% overall and even lower on the Camry. About the only people leasing are those like myself that know they are too impatient to keep a car until it is paid off or those who can write it off as a business expense.

With fewer "off lease" cars coming in to the dealer, the sludge issue seems to have resolved itself. Back in '00, the lease contract was amended to include strong statements that maintenance is still required on a leased vehicle and Toyota will charge the customer if they don't.

I know this doesn't answer the concerns of some people here, but it does show that Toyota is very cognizant of how and when engine sludge occurs.

pilot13 · October 2001

We've been out of the country for the past 8 weeks and just getting caught up on the ongoing "saga of sludge" here. First post we see is yours, and it makes sense.
It appears not much has changed--still a great big question mark as to whether or not we're seeing reality, or just a whole lot of creative fiction. (I tend toward the latter!)
Your observation certainly has merit, and I offer another observation
re other makes with sludged engines:--One of my former employees told me about his leased 99 Voyager self destructing due to a badly gunked up engine. He was quite honest about it and admitted that he neglected to change oil for 12K. He didn't have the heart to try for warranty and paid full up for the repairs. Apparently the engine was full of gunky/gritty crud, and the engine finally just seized solid.
Furthermore,I'm convinced the reason we don't hear too much about other makes is because the Toyota thing is continually spammed all over the net by a small group of energetic folks with a major "mad". If the same amount of energetic spamming occurred with a competitive make, the same thing would happen.

fxashun · October 2001

the sludged engines of people who have reciepts, own thier car, and got no warranty coverage. No one ever said that it didn't occur in other makes, just that it occurs most often in the two engines mentioned here. In addition there are great lease deals on many diferent makes, heck the Accord LX lease deals have been awesome, but no trail of sludge.
By the way the Accord is the number one selling car this year. And no sludge.

cliffy1 · October 2001

I never said it did. Read the title and text of my post.

Also, Honda never did lease like Camry did.

fxashun · October 2001

pilot13 · October 2001

A couple of posts earlier I noted that after a long absence nothing much seems to be changed here.
Logic, common sense, and civility apparently have no place in this forum, and trying to utilize those attributes would appear to be a lost cause.

adc100 · October 2001

Nice to see you back. There have been some changes. New posters have come-expressed their all too familiar sludgist incantations and then dissapear into etherspace. Happy Halloween.

Al

catgem · October 2001

I hope you have been somewhere safe....I am still here,(and I might add,I am nowhere else on the Net),as are JJ,Cholowicki,and Gimpy....I am still mad,but am busy looking for a job. I would have felt less ripped off if Toyota had been kinder. I will never forget the DSM telling me that he did not "have to look" at my records and receipts. Even if you conclude that all the sludge is due to owner neglect,shouldn't Toyota treat their customers a bit better??

seelig · October 2001

i do not own a toyota anymore, i still follow toyota related topics. partly due to when my pappy was still around, and worked for a toyota dealer. they never treated customers the way i'm reading about in here, and a couple of other threads i follow. what's up with them anyways? i always thought it was the american manufacturers job to treat customers like dirt.....LOL even though i believe that proper maintenance is important to keeping a warranty valid, it doesn't excuse the fact that toyota has built some real stinko's, and the way they are dodgin the bullet should be a crime.

210delray · October 2001

And welcome back, Pilot13. I thought you had deserted us for good.

I was treated very well by Toyota, but of course, I didn't have sludge.

Cliffy, very interesting about the lease returns. How many of these Camrys had sludge -- 10, 100, or 1,000? What was the mix of 4-cylinders vs. V6 engines? And last, can it be true that some were NEVER serviced during the lease term (that is, no oil changes)?

Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

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