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Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

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Comments

  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    Where does this sludge build up at? Im a little curious as I have never seen it before. Do the people with the sludge problems use quality filters?

    I have a 1995 Toyota Pickup, and it just recently hit 360,000 miles, no major repairs. Never seen any sludge at all, the truck still runs strong. Amsoil replacement every 5 grand. What is it that causes this stuff?
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    Every 5000 miles. Overkill, your jobber must love you!
  • pilot13pilot13 Member Posts: 283
    We spent half the time in Australia, and the other half in New Zealand---both great spots, but still happy to be back.
    Incidentally, the shock and revulsion there about 9/11 is every bit as deep as it is here.
    When we left, this thread had around 800 entries, and on return it's over 2000. Wow!!! Must have appeared in the Top 10 once or twice!
    However, a quick perusal of entries over the past 2 months shows thread content has been predominantly discussion (about 99.9% of the time), and very little about actual incidents.
    I checked a few of the other popular cartalk sites, and it's about the same there too.
    At risk of encouraging more of those "one hit wonders", it appears that actual reports are few and far between.
    Did some reading while away (mostly aviation mags), and came across a good article on engine oils--specifically the multi viscosity types. Seems that the wide spectrum multi viscosity oils tend to oxidize more quickly at prolonged high temperatures than originally foreseen. And while they provide excellent lubricating properties at lower viscocities, lubrication effectiveness really drops at the higher viscocities.
    Curious--a question for the really knowledgeable folks who drop in here occasionally--any comment on this?
  • jj35jj35 Member Posts: 283
    That was a short 8 wks! Or perhaps you had computer access while you were away? You posted on September 30 on the Toyota Problems discussion (post #1233).
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    I don't know the number, but I do recall seeing an inordinate number of cars in the shop for exactly the same thing. Most were 4 bangers but that is due to the fact that 80-85% of the Camrys sold have this engine.

    Again, these were cars that our used car manager bought at a Toyota auction. Those auctions are for lease returns and repossessions and nothing else. We didn't see anything like it from retail owners in our shop, nor did we see it on our regular trade in cars.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I previously posted that my last oil change receipt showed that the tech used 10W30. Someone else posted that they thought something must be wrong since they believed the recommended oil was 5W30.

    I wanted everyone to know that I called the service department and asked them what was the recommended oil. I did not tell them beforehand the reason for my question.

    I was told that for the Echo, they use Castrol 10W30.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I want to know if anyone who has had only Toyota performed oil changes (and did the oil changes according to Toyota's "recommendations") ended up suffering from sludge?

    If they did, did Toyota give them any problems for getting the engine repaired/replaced under warranty?
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    majorthom: you wrote that "the service department" told you 10W30. Is that the dealer's service dept (vs. Toyota HQ)?
    What does your manual state?
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I noticed that Gimp has been scarce since he announced that the bill for his engine was being picked up by the manufacturer.

    Do you think the new engine came with a gag order? ; )
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    The DEALER's service department.

    And either 10W30 or 5W30 can be used according to the manual although 5W30 is "preferred."
  • jj35jj35 Member Posts: 283
    When I click on your profile (it will show the last 5 or so posts you made on Edmunds), I see that you posted Sept. 30 (Toyota Problems), October 19 (Toyota Problems) and then the recent posts here. Does not appear to be an 8 wk vacation gap. Also, I tried to refresh my memory on the circumstances of your disappearance from this site -- went back to August when we took an informal vote on whether or not to keep this discussion going. I think you voted to not keep it going, and when it was decided by the host to keep it, you said that you were leaving. But those posts have disappeared - did Mr. Shiftright delete them? I can find Catgem saying goodbye to you in French (I am impressed Catgem -- I am unfortunately a one-language person), but can't find your post, Pilot13. Can you refresh our memory regarding your departure and why you decided to come back?
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    What did that post have to do with sludge JJ35?
  • catgemcatgem Member Posts: 246
    Inquiring minds want to know!!Thank you, JJ my French is from high school....
  • bruinhornbruinhorn Member Posts: 11
    it's all about credibility. When Pilot13 attacks others claims regarding, basically calling them liars, then he had better be prepared to defend himself.

    I am neither a sludge/Toyota proponent or opponent, but I do read these boards regularly to gather valuable information about the 4 vehicles that I own and I've seen a lot of bashing of owners who claimed sludge on their Toyota vehicles.

    I for one do not know for sure who is right or wrong but for others to attack these folks without any facts or knowledge of what happened is absolutely wrong. I would give every body the benefit of the doubt, Toyota or the sludgists, and see what happens down the road.

    One of my car is a Camry and we just love it but I still worry a little.
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    People complain about sludge and then are attacked by others, hmmm. Where IS the conspiracy?

    http://www.forums.vmag.com/mvsienna1199/messages/111.html

    Posted by Sienna Owner on October 16, 01 at 00:06:42:

    In Reply to: Re: sienna sludge posted by JJ on August 30, 01 at 03:41:10:

    There you go......now i know, you want to get free money from Toyota Motor Company..next thing you try to get from other Company through another Arbitration.
    So you lazy couch potato just try to make money from one Arbitration to another Arbitration.

    >: When you go to Arbitration, Toyota makes you sign >an agreement that you will not discuss it >afterwards. That is probably why no one posts the >results. I am not at that step yet.
    >
    >: By the way, thank you for responding to my e-mail.
  • seeligseelig Member Posts: 590
    who think extended service intervals are ok, check this site out, and pay attention to the last 2 paragraphs at the bottom of the page;


    http://www.unofficialbmw.com/all/misc/all_oilfaq.html

  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    for his extended service practices. As far as I was concerned his recourse was with Amsoil. Interesting that (apparently) Toyota finally accomodated him.

    Catgem and Cholowicki appear to me to be the grieved parties in this drama, however. Not Toyota.

    There are plenty of others out there all over the web, who are suffering the same complaint while being stiffed by Toyota, and they're not all abusing the service intervals.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I ran across one bulletin board, which I did not bookmark (sorry), but it seemed to be that when someone said anything that might even be remotely considered a defense of Toyota, others attacked them for the view. Also on that board, someone from Toyota posted and was subjected to some posts laced with profanity in return.

    I don't know if people think I was attacking Gimp on this board, but I really don't care. I think he was wrong in many of his assertions and that is why I responded the way I did.
  • pilot13pilot13 Member Posts: 283
    JJ35, you obviously feel you have some issues with me personally which appear to be troubling you. I'm not sure that these are real or imagined, but really, this forum is not the place to vent personal feelings or concerns about individuals. That has been made very clear by Edmunds, and I suggest you might be wise to revisit those rules.
    To Bruinhorn. I don't attack those who claim to have sludge. I've said it many times that sludge can occur in any make or model under the right conditions. Unfortunately, those conditions usually point to an owner not changing oil often enough. I take issue only with those who blame the manufacturer. I don't think that's right, and the fact that we're only hearing one side of the story reinforces my belief.
    To Seelig. The article you reference underscores my question earlier about broad spectrum multi grade oils. It's worth reading, and thanks for finding it.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I clicked on the link and there were like nine posts and there was one attack post. I don't think that proves evidence of a conspiracy against the people who claim sludge problems.

    Also, I find it ludicrous that Toyota has people whose job it is to surf the web, find bulletin boards dealing with sludge complaints, and post attack responses.

    I don't think it would have the effect they intend if they did such a thing and it would be cost prohibitive.

    Now about arbitration and not being able to disclose what happens, many people on this board posted they had sludge problems, did not indicate they were at the arbitration stage, and were never heard from again. Why? Surely, they did not get into arbitration the minute after posting their original claim.
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    I think the last two paragraphs are open to interpretation. You interpret one way I interpret another. Whatever floats our boats.

    Back to sludge.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Okay, here's what I read:

    "The extended oil drain intervals given by the vehicle manufacturers
    (typically 7500 miles) and synthetic oil companies (up to 25,000 miles)
    are for what is called normal service. Normal service is defined as the
    engine at normal operating temperature, at highway speeds, and in a dust
    free environment. Stop and go, city driving, trips of less than 10 miles,
    or extreme heat or cold puts the oil change interval into the severe
    service category, which is 3000 miles for most vehicles. Synthetics can be
    run two to three times the mileage of petroleum oils with no problems".


    Very clear opinion here from Mr. Engineer: To wit:

    Anyone driving in the city most of the time should change oil every 3,000 miles

    If you use synthetics, you can go 6,000 to 9,000 miles.
  • fxashunfxashun Member Posts: 747
    doesn't need oil changes til the computer tells you to. What if the sensor goes bad and you run it til the 7500 mile maximum and the engine sludges will Benz fix your car? It is "recommended" that you wait for the sensor or 7500 miles.

    Just as Toyota "recommends" 5000 to 7500 mile oil changes which Catgem did but got no warranty support. Not to mention the new Acura RSX with it's 10,000 mile interval.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Cliffy, thanks for the response. Just one more question -- did the sludged Camrys require new engines, or could their engines be cleaned with minimal replacement of parts?

    jj- I too am somewhat puzzled by your questioning of pilot. Computers are everywhere these days, so it's not hard to "check in" from time to time, even while on the road. For example, in the lobby of my son's college dorm in NYC, there are 2 computers always on and connected to the internet. I was able to browse Edmunds, bid on ebay, etc., no sweat.

    Mr Shiftright -- appreciate the quote on extended oil drain intervals. It reinforces the point that many of us have made that auto manufacturers tend to define "severe service" too narrowly. Specifically in Toyota's case, city driving is severe only if there is extensive idling (as in door-to-door delivery), and short trips are defined as 5 miles or less, and only in freezing temperatures.
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    We need more of this sort of thing.

    With regards to Shiftright's post. That 2 to 3 times service interval for syns is worst case. Which no one will approach, but it is at least a limit for the most conservative of us.

    Mobil 1 ran an "Aunt Millie" test which spanned 5 years with no engine oil change except for sampling which did essentially allow almost 5 quarts during that period. The duration was 7000 miles. During half the period 2 1/2 years there were two 3 mile trips per day and the other half two 1.5 mile trips per day. After 5 years engine cleanliness was rated "excellent".
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    My definition (and I don't really care what the manufacturers say) is trips of less then 10 miles regardless of climate or outside temperature. Who cares about 100 degree weather, if the temp gauge is normal the oil is not being cooked. Stop and go, not sure that even makes a difference. Cold starts and failure to heat the oil is my severe service. teh car I purchased 2 years ago, a twin turbo with only 5,400 miles on it had the last oil change 1 1/2 years (about 2,500 miles) prior to my purchase with Mobil 1 and a dealer filter. Guess what, I had the oil analyzed, results were beautiful because the previous owner never started it and just let it warm up slightly and shut it down, he drove it at least 10 miles every time. I have had the same oil and filter in this engien at least 10 months a few times now but every time I start that engine I go at least 10 miles to assure hot conditions.

    High speed driving in 100 degree weather. . Ha, the puys that put on 30,000 miles a year all highway easily go 7,500 between changes with dino, this is the easiest wear on the engine and the heat should not be an issue with a proper cooling system. My $.02

    Besides, other then (likeToyota) doesn't care what you say or prove, sludge is owner negligence, but how could anyone ever say that you drive severe conditions, do they video tape you every day to prove it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 99 % of drivers do a combination of city and highway and I would not classify that as severe.
  • pilot13pilot13 Member Posts: 283
    I agree that some owners seem to take recommended oil change intervals as their exclusive criteria, and feel that they need not concern themselves with operating parameters for their vehicle. If, or when something goes wrong, it's easy to say "Recommendations were followed, therefor it's got to be the manufacturer's fault".
    But it's not quite that simple. Recommendations are one thing, and the reality of operating a machine as complex as an automobile is another.
    I noted in Fxashun's last comments that Mercedes now features a sensor to advise when oil changes are due. I'm not sure how this works, but I would guess that either an optical, or solids detection sensor is used.
    As vehicle owners, we can easily do the same thing much less expensively. It's called "Checking the oil"--not just for the proper level, but for color and feel. Regardless of the mileage between changes, if oil looks dark, feels gritty, thin, or gunky, it's time to think about changing oil.
    I wonder how many of those who have gunked up engines really looked beyond cursory checking of oil levels, and/or simply following recommended intervals?
  • jj35jj35 Member Posts: 283
    I apologize. I really don't mean anything personally. Was just trying to point out an inconsistency. You said that you weren't on this site for 8 wks because you were overseas, yet you posted elsewhere during this time frame. It is really irrelevant to the sludge issue. So I will drop it.
    ;-)
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    I think most of them were not replaced, but refurbished. This means completely taking the engine apart and replacing only those parts that can not be salvaged. Many parts were sent to a local machine shop for cleaning. I am guessing that this was less expansive than a total replacement, but I fail to see how. The labor involved was intense. I saw some that were in the same service bay for a week.
  • jj35jj35 Member Posts: 283
    If you want to see some vicious comebacks to people claiming to have engine sludge, go to http://www.thecomplaintstation.com, click on T on the alphabet on the top of the page then go to Toyota. This site is nearly completely about Toyota engine sludge, and because people can post anonymously, they get pretty nasty. Not a good site, but you will definitely get a feel for how nasty people can be on an unmoderated site. Cheers to Mr. Shiftright and the good manners of the people posting here for keeping this site comparatively civil!
  • jj35jj35 Member Posts: 283
    Just checked the complaint station site mentioned in my above post and it seems a little cleaned up over the last few days. May have to go back a few pages for the nasties. Seems the people causing problems on that site found something better to do. Maybe their engines sludged!
  • stealth1969stealth1969 Member Posts: 162
    I would not recommend going 10k to 15k on an oil change in a Seinna. Servere service 5k times 2 to 3 times longer with syn oil, normal severe would be 15k to 21.5k, you would be asking for problems. Going 2 to 3 times longer with syn might work for other cars, but not for a Seinna. Expecially if the car was under warranty (uless you partake in the adc100 form of documentation).

    I can tell you I looked beyond just cursory checking of oil. I "check my oil" every fill up. There was no gunk, grit, it wasn't thin or dark on the dip stick. However, there was sludge in my engine, the light honey colored variety. Yes, "checking the oil" is important, but will not always show a problem when there is one.

    Yes, owner neglect is ONE cause of sludge, but not the only.
  • pilot13pilot13 Member Posts: 283
    But I sure wondered what your intent was. I did keep in touch with North America through the internet while away. Our son lives there (in Sydney) and I used his PC. He is ex Air Force, and now works as a helicopter design consultant for the Australian Military.
    And you're correct about the Complaint Station site--it's a disgusting example of a bunch of neurotics completely out of control. I make a point of avoiding that site.
  • cholowickicholowicki Member Posts: 81
    I was just catching up with the thread, so here are a few comments relating to the last 40 posts or so.

    My Camry was leased in June '99, so I apparently missed out on the "sweet" lease deals. The car only made it 2 years before the engine seized up and it blew a rod. No chance of repairing - replacement was the only option.

    I have all the documentation for maintenance of the vehicle, which was useless up to this point. Hopefully it will be more useful in court. I did routinely check the oil, but prior to this incident I knew very little about engines. I don't know if I would have really noticed a change in the color, and I never touched it, so I would never have picked up on it being gritty. Unless it came out as lumpy or a solid, I wouldn't have noticed it. I believed that by changing the oil regularly I had nothing to worry about.

    Last thing, gag orders were never mentioned in my arbitration. Maybe that only comes up if they find in your favor?
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    at the dipstick is BS IMHO. Oil is meant to hold impurities. Don't let them bully you, ladies.
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    Certainly no major sludge posts for Honda, Hyundai, Nissan or Subaru. Some interesting reading for Toyota.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I have seen the site before, but I went back and I wanted to comment on something said at the bottom of the first page.

    I had to laugh at the statement "Thank the government for Freedom Of Speech." The government did not give us our rights. The Bill of Rights merely codified the rights each of us by being alive.
  • fxashunfxashun Member Posts: 747
    there are sludge posts.

    With all the reasons for there to be sludge there has not been one single explanation why no other engines, Toyota engines included, that have the multiple sludge postings that the 3.0 V6 and I4. There is no certain set of circumstances that effects these engines that doesn't come into play under any other number of engines. Other than the fact that these engines seem to develope sludge on a more consistent basis, they are no different than any other motor.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I looked at the posts (three of them) for Honda under sludge which were all done by the same person it appears, but what I found interesting is that Honda is exhibiting the same behavior that Toyota is alleged to be exhibiting. That is putting the blame on lack of maintenance.
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    majorthom: How about we thank the Magna Carta's writers? We may "have" rights simply because we were born, but tell that to the King.

    csandste: Inspection of the dipstick can provide an early warning about sludge. It's worth checking.
  • spokanespokane Member Posts: 514
    Although mentioned some time ago, perhaps it's worth repeating that motor oil life can be adversely effected by coolant temperature. Armtdn correctly said "Cold starts and failure to heat the oil is .. severe service." A thermostat which looses it's calibration can keep the oil from warming adequately with the result of higher engine component wear rates and possibly much faster deterioration of the motor oil. The passenger compartment heater may perform OK even though the oil is too cool to purge itself of moisture. Dashboard temp gauges are are not very accurate so the reduced temperature may be seen as a very slight change, possibly over a period of months, on the gauge. Sludge accumulation would not be surprising in ~6000 miles in combination with quite a few short trips and a coolant temperature of ~160F. If in doubt, the thermostat can be easily checked by suspending it in a pot of water on the kitchen stove. Use a cook's thermometer and watch carefully as the temperature increases to see that the thermostat begins to open within a few degrees of the spec, about 195F on most modern engines. Better yet, test both the old and a new thermostat simultaneously and compare their behavior. For an engine which has been damaged by sludge and repaired, but still has its old thermostat, this check could be particularly important.
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    obviously you have a problem. But lots of oil turns dark after a couple of thousand miles. I've always heard that visual inspection of oil (i.e. color) is not a reliable indicator of oil condition.
  • fxashunfxashun Member Posts: 747
    the Benz C-Coupe is that check this out...It doesn't have a dipstick. You can't even check the oil.

    I looked in the Honda thread at the posts that said that the engines were siezed. The names in some of the posts were HondaHater, HondaVictim, and HondaOwner. And not a single one of them claimed to have receipts proving oil changes. Whereas I have personally seen all of Cholowicki's documentation.
  • easyrider300measyrider300m Member Posts: 1,116
    Here is a copy of a post from my forum: Mechanics: Horror Stories --you may want to visit that forum to see other stories of incompetent and dishonest mechanics---here is my post:

    Once I brought my car in to have a flat fixed and have the oil and filter changed. I could have fixed the flat myself with one of those do it yourself expresso plug kits but figured why not have it done right seeing I needed an oil change anyway. So I left the car with the grease monkey and came back to pick it up at the end of the day. Charged me $12 for the flat repair and $23 for the oil change. The guy that worked on my car wrote up the bill. I paid the bill and headed home. Once home, I checked the dip stick to make sure he filled it up to the proper level. The stick had oil on it as black as coal---the oil obviously wasnt changed. I checked the tire repair and found that he had just inserted a plug like I could have done myself in 2 minutes instead of the proper inner patch. Well, I headed back and asked him why he didnt change the oil. He stated that he must have forgot. I said to him: "Yeah, but you didnt forget to charge me!" I also mentioned the improper flat repair and demanded a full refund which I received. Needless to say, I will not be heading back to that station for any future repair or maintenance work. Some unsuspecting customer would have driven the car for another 3,000 to 7,000 miles with dirty oil and a clogged filter. Dont think that would be too good for your engine.--Motto: Buyer Beware
  • gimpyrxgimpyrx Member Posts: 198
    Just watching all of yall...........

    BTW...Results are in....ANOTHER 99 RX-300 33,000 miles with......GLYCOL & 4,500 mile oil changes HMMMMMMM......$$$

    TIME WILL TELL!

    Gota go before I "PO" anyone.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Gimp, I am sorry to see you have a low opinion of your own posts. ; )
  • gimpyrxgimpyrx Member Posts: 198
    ALL you do is stir up s...!
    AMF!
  • pilot13pilot13 Member Posts: 283
    Seems to me someone said somewhere that the tone of remarks in this topic was much more civilized and genteel now, thanks to my absence during Sept. and Oct.
    I think someone might have been misled...........?
    Looks like I should have stayed here!
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    Just sent a load of 35 high-mile Toyotas to the islands...

    Not a sludged one in the bunch. Only 1 or 2 even had the service records with em, and a couple appeared very poorly maintained.

    Bill
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    LOL. Gimp, you come in here and post a message with a very provocative title and you get upset when I make a joke of your poorly worded title.

    Seriously though, where is this other RX that has sludge? Your post did not make it clear.
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