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I have a 1995 Toyota Pickup, and it just recently hit 360,000 miles, no major repairs. Never seen any sludge at all, the truck still runs strong. Amsoil replacement every 5 grand. What is it that causes this stuff?
Incidentally, the shock and revulsion there about 9/11 is every bit as deep as it is here.
When we left, this thread had around 800 entries, and on return it's over 2000. Wow!!! Must have appeared in the Top 10 once or twice!
However, a quick perusal of entries over the past 2 months shows thread content has been predominantly discussion (about 99.9% of the time), and very little about actual incidents.
I checked a few of the other popular cartalk sites, and it's about the same there too.
At risk of encouraging more of those "one hit wonders", it appears that actual reports are few and far between.
Did some reading while away (mostly aviation mags), and came across a good article on engine oils--specifically the multi viscosity types. Seems that the wide spectrum multi viscosity oils tend to oxidize more quickly at prolonged high temperatures than originally foreseen. And while they provide excellent lubricating properties at lower viscocities, lubrication effectiveness really drops at the higher viscocities.
Curious--a question for the really knowledgeable folks who drop in here occasionally--any comment on this?
Again, these were cars that our used car manager bought at a Toyota auction. Those auctions are for lease returns and repossessions and nothing else. We didn't see anything like it from retail owners in our shop, nor did we see it on our regular trade in cars.
I wanted everyone to know that I called the service department and asked them what was the recommended oil. I did not tell them beforehand the reason for my question.
I was told that for the Echo, they use Castrol 10W30.
If they did, did Toyota give them any problems for getting the engine repaired/replaced under warranty?
What does your manual state?
Do you think the new engine came with a gag order? ; )
And either 10W30 or 5W30 can be used according to the manual although 5W30 is "preferred."
I am neither a sludge/Toyota proponent or opponent, but I do read these boards regularly to gather valuable information about the 4 vehicles that I own and I've seen a lot of bashing of owners who claimed sludge on their Toyota vehicles.
I for one do not know for sure who is right or wrong but for others to attack these folks without any facts or knowledge of what happened is absolutely wrong. I would give every body the benefit of the doubt, Toyota or the sludgists, and see what happens down the road.
One of my car is a Camry and we just love it but I still worry a little.
http://www.forums.vmag.com/mvsienna1199/messages/111.html
Posted by Sienna Owner on October 16, 01 at 00:06:42:
In Reply to: Re: sienna sludge posted by JJ on August 30, 01 at 03:41:10:
There you go......now i know, you want to get free money from Toyota Motor Company..next thing you try to get from other Company through another Arbitration.
So you lazy couch potato just try to make money from one Arbitration to another Arbitration.
>: When you go to Arbitration, Toyota makes you sign >an agreement that you will not discuss it >afterwards. That is probably why no one posts the >results. I am not at that step yet.
>
>: By the way, thank you for responding to my e-mail.
http://www.unofficialbmw.com/all/misc/all_oilfaq.html
Catgem and Cholowicki appear to me to be the grieved parties in this drama, however. Not Toyota.
There are plenty of others out there all over the web, who are suffering the same complaint while being stiffed by Toyota, and they're not all abusing the service intervals.
I don't know if people think I was attacking Gimp on this board, but I really don't care. I think he was wrong in many of his assertions and that is why I responded the way I did.
To Bruinhorn. I don't attack those who claim to have sludge. I've said it many times that sludge can occur in any make or model under the right conditions. Unfortunately, those conditions usually point to an owner not changing oil often enough. I take issue only with those who blame the manufacturer. I don't think that's right, and the fact that we're only hearing one side of the story reinforces my belief.
To Seelig. The article you reference underscores my question earlier about broad spectrum multi grade oils. It's worth reading, and thanks for finding it.
Also, I find it ludicrous that Toyota has people whose job it is to surf the web, find bulletin boards dealing with sludge complaints, and post attack responses.
I don't think it would have the effect they intend if they did such a thing and it would be cost prohibitive.
Now about arbitration and not being able to disclose what happens, many people on this board posted they had sludge problems, did not indicate they were at the arbitration stage, and were never heard from again. Why? Surely, they did not get into arbitration the minute after posting their original claim.
Back to sludge.
"The extended oil drain intervals given by the vehicle manufacturers
(typically 7500 miles) and synthetic oil companies (up to 25,000 miles)
are for what is called normal service. Normal service is defined as the
engine at normal operating temperature, at highway speeds, and in a dust
free environment. Stop and go, city driving, trips of less than 10 miles,
or extreme heat or cold puts the oil change interval into the severe
service category, which is 3000 miles for most vehicles. Synthetics can be
run two to three times the mileage of petroleum oils with no problems".
Very clear opinion here from Mr. Engineer: To wit:
Anyone driving in the city most of the time should change oil every 3,000 miles
If you use synthetics, you can go 6,000 to 9,000 miles.
Just as Toyota "recommends" 5000 to 7500 mile oil changes which Catgem did but got no warranty support. Not to mention the new Acura RSX with it's 10,000 mile interval.
jj- I too am somewhat puzzled by your questioning of pilot. Computers are everywhere these days, so it's not hard to "check in" from time to time, even while on the road. For example, in the lobby of my son's college dorm in NYC, there are 2 computers always on and connected to the internet. I was able to browse Edmunds, bid on ebay, etc., no sweat.
Mr Shiftright -- appreciate the quote on extended oil drain intervals. It reinforces the point that many of us have made that auto manufacturers tend to define "severe service" too narrowly. Specifically in Toyota's case, city driving is severe only if there is extensive idling (as in door-to-door delivery), and short trips are defined as 5 miles or less, and only in freezing temperatures.
With regards to Shiftright's post. That 2 to 3 times service interval for syns is worst case. Which no one will approach, but it is at least a limit for the most conservative of us.
Mobil 1 ran an "Aunt Millie" test which spanned 5 years with no engine oil change except for sampling which did essentially allow almost 5 quarts during that period. The duration was 7000 miles. During half the period 2 1/2 years there were two 3 mile trips per day and the other half two 1.5 mile trips per day. After 5 years engine cleanliness was rated "excellent".
High speed driving in 100 degree weather. . Ha, the puys that put on 30,000 miles a year all highway easily go 7,500 between changes with dino, this is the easiest wear on the engine and the heat should not be an issue with a proper cooling system. My $.02
Besides, other then (likeToyota) doesn't care what you say or prove, sludge is owner negligence, but how could anyone ever say that you drive severe conditions, do they video tape you every day to prove it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 99 % of drivers do a combination of city and highway and I would not classify that as severe.
But it's not quite that simple. Recommendations are one thing, and the reality of operating a machine as complex as an automobile is another.
I noted in Fxashun's last comments that Mercedes now features a sensor to advise when oil changes are due. I'm not sure how this works, but I would guess that either an optical, or solids detection sensor is used.
As vehicle owners, we can easily do the same thing much less expensively. It's called "Checking the oil"--not just for the proper level, but for color and feel. Regardless of the mileage between changes, if oil looks dark, feels gritty, thin, or gunky, it's time to think about changing oil.
I wonder how many of those who have gunked up engines really looked beyond cursory checking of oil levels, and/or simply following recommended intervals?
;-)
I can tell you I looked beyond just cursory checking of oil. I "check my oil" every fill up. There was no gunk, grit, it wasn't thin or dark on the dip stick. However, there was sludge in my engine, the light honey colored variety. Yes, "checking the oil" is important, but will not always show a problem when there is one.
Yes, owner neglect is ONE cause of sludge, but not the only.
And you're correct about the Complaint Station site--it's a disgusting example of a bunch of neurotics completely out of control. I make a point of avoiding that site.
My Camry was leased in June '99, so I apparently missed out on the "sweet" lease deals. The car only made it 2 years before the engine seized up and it blew a rod. No chance of repairing - replacement was the only option.
I have all the documentation for maintenance of the vehicle, which was useless up to this point. Hopefully it will be more useful in court. I did routinely check the oil, but prior to this incident I knew very little about engines. I don't know if I would have really noticed a change in the color, and I never touched it, so I would never have picked up on it being gritty. Unless it came out as lumpy or a solid, I wouldn't have noticed it. I believed that by changing the oil regularly I had nothing to worry about.
Last thing, gag orders were never mentioned in my arbitration. Maybe that only comes up if they find in your favor?
I had to laugh at the statement "Thank the government for Freedom Of Speech." The government did not give us our rights. The Bill of Rights merely codified the rights each of us by being alive.
With all the reasons for there to be sludge there has not been one single explanation why no other engines, Toyota engines included, that have the multiple sludge postings that the 3.0 V6 and I4. There is no certain set of circumstances that effects these engines that doesn't come into play under any other number of engines. Other than the fact that these engines seem to develope sludge on a more consistent basis, they are no different than any other motor.
csandste: Inspection of the dipstick can provide an early warning about sludge. It's worth checking.
I looked in the Honda thread at the posts that said that the engines were siezed. The names in some of the posts were HondaHater, HondaVictim, and HondaOwner. And not a single one of them claimed to have receipts proving oil changes. Whereas I have personally seen all of Cholowicki's documentation.
Once I brought my car in to have a flat fixed and have the oil and filter changed. I could have fixed the flat myself with one of those do it yourself expresso plug kits but figured why not have it done right seeing I needed an oil change anyway. So I left the car with the grease monkey and came back to pick it up at the end of the day. Charged me $12 for the flat repair and $23 for the oil change. The guy that worked on my car wrote up the bill. I paid the bill and headed home. Once home, I checked the dip stick to make sure he filled it up to the proper level. The stick had oil on it as black as coal---the oil obviously wasnt changed. I checked the tire repair and found that he had just inserted a plug like I could have done myself in 2 minutes instead of the proper inner patch. Well, I headed back and asked him why he didnt change the oil. He stated that he must have forgot. I said to him: "Yeah, but you didnt forget to charge me!" I also mentioned the improper flat repair and demanded a full refund which I received. Needless to say, I will not be heading back to that station for any future repair or maintenance work. Some unsuspecting customer would have driven the car for another 3,000 to 7,000 miles with dirty oil and a clogged filter. Dont think that would be too good for your engine.--Motto: Buyer Beware
BTW...Results are in....ANOTHER 99 RX-300 33,000 miles with......GLYCOL & 4,500 mile oil changes HMMMMMMM......$$$
TIME WILL TELL!
Gota go before I "PO" anyone.
AMF!
I think someone might have been misled...........?
Looks like I should have stayed here!
Not a sludged one in the bunch. Only 1 or 2 even had the service records with em, and a couple appeared very poorly maintained.
Bill
Seriously though, where is this other RX that has sludge? Your post did not make it clear.