Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

lbthedawg · January 2002

any Japanese vehicle in a state that used salt on the roads.

peter78 · January 2002

When my Dad asked me for advice on replacing his 91 Previa, I read comments on the Sienna board. Every once in a while the word "sludge" comes up and the HOST would ask the person who posted the message to go to the engine sludge board. I read this site and other sites on the web. Also, I talked to a friend who owns a repair shop and he said the higher mileage 3.0 liter engines tend to overheat in the heads, (the head on the inside by the firewall) and the oil just bakes. Put all this together and I recommended to my Dad to look at the Honda or just wait. Right now he is just waiting, he does love the Previa. So I would say this site help me investigate more and Toyota lost a sale.
If I had a 3.0 liter engine I wouldn't freak out and sell it, but I would consider synthetic oil as a good investment. Most of the engine with high miles and a problem aren't going to Toyota, they are going to independents. If heat is effecting the engine on high mileage 3.0 liters, I would think Mobil 1, or another synthetic might be good insurance.

fxashun · January 2002

Even with it's horrific crash tests. I just love that van. They seem to be nearly bulletproof.

I've owned over 10 Toyotas with several over 130K miles. No sludge. But then again none of then had the 3L/V6. I changed my oil at 7500 or more miles just as the manual. If it takes oil changes at 3000 miles to assure trouble free motoring with this engine you might as well bought a Windstar.

deepdivot · January 2002

Am thinking of having my son inherit my Corolla and I take the wife's Camry, and get her an Avalon. I've owned 5 Toyota's in the past (6 if you count a Prizm). But the 3.0V6 is out as far as I'm concerned. 3K oil changes shouldn't be a necessity on a properly designed/manufactured engine. Ruined engines with as little as 5600 miles on them is a big concern, but perhaps an even bigger one is Toyota's attitude toward their customers.

sgergen · January 2002

You would go with a Windstar over a Sienna based on the oil change schedule?

Based on 3 years and 36,000 miles you're looking at a difference of 4 or 5 oil changes on the 7,500 plan versus 12 on the 3,000 mile plan. Let's go with a difference of 8 oil changes at a cost of ~$20.00 each (done at the dealer) for a grand total of $160.00 over a 3 year period. This is a difference of just over $50 per year, roughly $4.50 per month. You'll spend more than that if you use a synthetic (I would bet).

You'll spend that getting the Windstar towed 1 time.

Scott

isellhondas · January 2002

Well, it sounds like you buy into what you read here as I'm sure others do.

Hoax vs. reality...? I still don't know but I seriously have my doubts!

mtggirl · January 2002

"Mobil 1, no wax, no natural contaminants--no sludge build up" Yeah Right!

Host....We have all probably over-stepped the rules occasionally at Town Hall. What is important is not that we be perfect but that we respond to the encouragement of others to behave properly....so give gimp a break,let him back in.

majorthomecho · January 2002

Would I buy another Toyota? Yes. Would I buy a Sienna, a Camry, or an RX300? No, but that has to do with those vehicles not being my style rather than any danger of sludge.

As far as Gimp goes, who knows how many times the Host privately admonished him to tone down the personal insults and use of veiled profanity. I do know that he was publicly admonished about it a number of times, but he continued.

I believe in the theory of rehabilitation, but I think Gimp showed himself to be incorrigible. I am not sure when Gimp was kicked off exactly, but I think it was recently and it is too soon to even talk of letting him back on.

Now some might accuse me of baiting him, but I had some questions that only he could answer so I had to address the questions to him. He refused to answer them or refused to answer them in a straightforward manner which is why I kept asking him.

Now enough about Gimp, back to the sludge.

mbbenz · January 2002

I don't know if anyone else notice but .... this mtggirl just signed onto Edmunds a few days ago (about same time the GIMP left the building), claims he/she have no idea what the heck SLUDGE is (read post #2978) and then log onto no other Town Hall forums other than this SLUDGE one and all of a sudden says:

Mobil 1, no wax, no natural contaminants--no sludge build up" Yeah Right

For someone who had no idea what SLUDGE was a few days ago (again read post #2978) and now he/she wants the GIMP back...........Hmmm, could this be the GIMP himself? You decide.

cliffy1 · January 2002

I don't believe a properly maintained Sienna will sludge. Everything I have seen here and elsewhere, indicates a distinct pattern or using questionable shops to perform oil changes. A receipt from Jiffy Lube is no garuntee that an oil change was actually done.

I do believe that the Sienna is more sensitive to poor maintenance than other cars, including Camrys and Avalons. This is because of how the engine is oriented in the engine compartment. The sedans have much more room behind the engine and it is my guess that this translates into lower operating temperatures. The Sienna engine is wedged in pretty tight with very little room between the fire wall and the rear exhaust manifold. This has to contribute to heat build up.

If oil changes are done on time and correctly, this excess heat shouldn't result in sludge. Miss one oil change however, and you could be in trouble. If you are following the 7500 mile schedule, this means you could be putting 15K miles on oil that is being exposed to high levels of heat and sludge would be inevitable. A Camry may be able to survive this interval once or twice in its life, but the Sienna may not.

Mind you, this is only a theory. The only difference between the Camry and Sienna engine is how it is positioned in the engine compartment.

Again, your best defense against this is frequent oil changes by reputable shops.

peter78 · January 2002

Cliffy1, I think your right about oil changes at a regular basis. I would even be tempted to change sooner than 7,500, and it is just not the 3.0 liter, I think all new engines can run hotter. I have a new 4Runner and I notice the hood is warmer than any other car I have had.
About Mobil 1 and "mtggirl" response. For someone that loves their RX, you have a strong opinion on 3.0 liter not being foolproof. No, sythethic oil is not foolproof. The reason I said Mobil 1, is mainly to steer people away from Castrol Synthetic and other products that are oil base synthetics. I do use regular Castrol GTX and it is a fine oil base product. I would still change your synthetic oil on a regular basis on your lovely RX, ("gimp"), I'm sorry "mtggirl".

jeffmust2 · January 2002

Check post #4202 on the Lexus RX300 board.

Can't hide that lovely writing style with a nom de plume. Or even a nom de sludge, eh Gimp?

brucer2 · January 2002

I doubt if Toyotas are, on average, maintained any worse than other brands of cars, but I haven't read sludge complaints about the others. I think this, "If you did.... you wouldn't get sludge.", is just a Red Herring. Floks with all kinds of other engines don't always do the "right thing", and they don't get sludge at less than 50k miles.

jj35 · January 2002

Deepdivot - You mentioned buying an Avalon - it has the same V-6 engine as the Sienna. Check some of the other sites with sludge reports (try the www.nhtsa.gov problems and issues/consumer complaints. Pretty sure I saw a few there.

Cliffy - I have heard mentioned before what you are saying about the Sienna engine being positioned differently. This could explain why we are seeing this problem so much more in Siennas than other models (at least it seems that way to me, but I am a Sienna owner, so maybe I just notice those more -- definitely more on the www.nhtsa.gov site). Do any of the other vehicles with this engine have it postioned like the Sienna? Wondering about the Lexus.

I did not exceed the recommended oil change interval on any of my oil changes. My first was at 7,100 miles, second at 10,000 and third at 16,000. I saw them change the oil at 16,000 mi. There was no mention of sludge, but I have been told that you may not notice sludge when you drain the oil. So if by chance the 10,000 mile oil change didn't happen (I did not see them drain and add oil) - then that means there could have been around 9,000 miles on my van between oil changes (I did see the 7,100 change, too). Is 9,000 miles enough to totally gunk up an engine with sludge so that it needs $3,300 in repairs? If so, I don't want to have to deal with it. There are no guarantees,now that I am going to Toyota, that they are actually putting in the oil. Because of the way their service bays are set up, I can't see them do it. While I am under warranty, I guess I am covered if it sludges again, but what about when the warranty is over? I guess it is obvious that I will never buy a Toyota again. And I am very nervous about keeping the one I have now past 36,000 miles. I started getting Castrol Syntec at my last oil change and thought that may provide extra protection, but recently I saw a report by someone with Mobil 1 getting sludge. I definitely do not want to live through another sludged engine and $3,300 engine repair.

cliffy1 · January 2002

The Highlander and RX300 engine are set back, but not as far as the Sienna.

Now, you do realize that your engine and transmission are covered for 60K miles and not the 36K you mentioned right? It also sounds like you sue the dealer for oil changes. You really have nothing to worry about. When you get close to the end of the warranty, you may want to pay to have the valve covers removed and inspected just to reassure yourself.

cliffy1 · January 2002

One last thing... Since you're using the dealer for oil changes, and that seems to be the ticket to prevent a warranty claim from being denied, have you given any thought to buying an extended warranty? You can buy the Toyota warranty up until the basic 3/36 warranty expires.

mbbenz · January 2002

Why don't you just pull the dipstick and check afterwards. Some mechanics get irritated when you watch their every moves. If they do in fact change the oil and filter, your new oil should be clear like cooking oil. So clear you may have to reflect light of it to see it. The filter on these engines can be seen easily. Even if they change the oil but not the filter, your oil won't be that clear since you are mixing in some old oil from the filter with the new oil. My 2 cents.

cliffy1 · January 2002

Mark your oil filter. The oil filter is easy to reach and one swipe with a grease pencil on the top will let you know if they changed it.

mrdetailer · January 2002

is always a good idea.

JJ35, remember to comply with the suggested time intervals as well as the mileage.

davemm · January 2002

Is there a way to confirm that a synthetic oil has been put into your car? If I go to Toyota and ask for Mobil 1 or another synthetic oil how can I check to make sure they put synthetic in?

A test strip of some sort?

jj35 · January 2002

Thanks to all for the advice. I don't need to worry about the time interval for an oil change because I hit the mileage so much sooner. I average about 17,000 miles/yr. After my sludge at 17,000 miles, I started doing oil changes every 3,000 to 3,500 miles. The new dealer that put in the Castrol Syntec put 6 months or 5,000 miles for the next oil change on the window sticker. I know that is within the intervals in the manual, but should I wait that long, or stick with my 3,000 to 3,500 schedule, which I will hit in less than 3 months?

deepdivot · January 2002

I tend to take with a huge grain of salt single complaints. Even two or three complaints. (If I didn't, I'd be riding a bike or walking!). But the problems with the 3.0 engine have been mentioned so many times, not only in this forum but at many other places. When long term, die-hard Toyota fans start complaining, it's time to start listening. One good thing, if it can be called that, is that the biggest concern seems to be with the Sienna, which some have speculated is due to engine location or perhaps the weight of the vehicle, and I'm definitely past the minivan stage. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Toyota fan. Their vehicles are generally very well designed and built, and are also good values. But even the best companies make mistakes. I suspect they took the design to the limit on this one engine, and with manufacturing tolerances, different oils, different driving habits, etc., sometimes the limit is exceeded. Why take the chance?

mbbenz · January 2002

It is probably an overkill but if it makes you sleep better at night, then stick to the 3000 miles schedule. I mean it costs what $20?

mrrogers · January 2002

Back when I was a young man, I owned a 1972 Detomaso Pantera with the Ford 351 Cleveland V8 engine. They were known for running hot. The Pantera Owners Club discovered that if you ran an extra quart of oil in the engine, and wired the cooling fans to run whenever the engine was running, you could minimize the cooling issues. Conventional wisdom would be that if you run an extra quart of oil, and run the engine hard, the oil will foam, and cause lubrication problems. The fact of the matter is that most of the Pantera owners had arrest records for speeding as long as the Ten Commandments, so most of us just drove slow and shifted at 2200 RPM in an effort to keep our drivers licenses. All Lexus/Toyota 3.0 V6's have automatic transmissions, so it may be possible to minimize the high RPM engine operation with a conservative driving style. Does anyone think the extra quart of oil would minimize the sludge issue? How about a remote oil cooler and/or remote oil filter as a way to increse oil system capacity without the risk of oil foaming?

thewolverine · January 2002

Dave;

When I bring my Mobil 1 to the Toy dealer for a change I ask for the emptys - keep the original cardboard case and have them returned in that so as not to mess the carpet.

Of course they may be putting it into someone else's car (their own?) but I try not to get any more paranoid than I already am!

thewolverine · January 2002

Cliffy - What's your take on the PCV valve's reduced air flow (alleged) as a cause? Found this on Yotarepair.com.

wain · January 2002

Are the Sienna owners who claiming sludge using their vans in a manner unlike other people, ie are they heavily loaded a lot, or used in the mountains or all in hot climates?

and is the sludge mostly in Sienna? maybe thermostat setting is different??

sgergen · January 2002

First post in this forum declares that he/she lover her/his RX-300 and wants to know what "this sludge is all about".

First post in the RX-300 forum is anti-RX300.

Second Post in this forum is lamenting the loss of gimpyrx from TownHall forums.

Third post in this forum is an anti Toyota/Lexus 3.0l V-6 engine post and a request to have gimpyrx allowed back in.

mtggirl went from presumably knowing nothing about sludge or this forum (or the RX-300 forum) to forming an opinion on sludge, forming an opinion on gimpyrx, forming an opinion on the 3.0l engine and changing his/her opinion on his/her RX-300 (goes from loving it to hating it in mere minutes...)

And then people wonder why they are questioned about their "stories"...

Scott

mrdetailer · January 2002

I know that this is not a favorite oil since it is not a PAO synthetic. Rather it uses regular motor oil and uses a process called hydrocracking.

I have examined sludge tests for Castrol Syntec, and Valvoline Maxlife. On this test most conventional oils would increase their viscosity to approximately 250% in 75 hours. It turned conventional into sludge The Syntec and Valvoline Maxlife increased only by 50% and were not sludged.

It is much better than conventional, while not quite as good as a PAO synthetic. I would not be worried about Syntec at 4000 miles.

yaman · January 2002

As a Sienna owner-I have been following this topic with interest for a while now generally silently.Just an observation that our society has become a really sad place when so many of us feel that we need to check to make sure that people we hire to change our oil really do so.
Says mountains ( and all bad) to me

Mr_Shiftright · January 2002

I think the more TV you watch the more paranoid you get. Town Hall gives you a more balanced view of what's going on out there, I hope.

RE: oil as coolant---oil itself is not a very good coolant. It takes a long time for oil to dissipate heat. If you add more oil, say 7 quarts instead of 5, it will just take longer for the 7 quarts to heat up to the level of the 5 quarts, and then you have the same problem. An oil cooler will help of course, if it's big enough and in the right place in the airstream.

But if you count on oil to cool your engine, you are on a very slim margin.

wain · January 2002

checking to see if oil has been changed by yaman Jan 24, 2002 (12:02 pm)

Trust everyone - just check up.
You can check your oil in 30 seconds.
And one time they left the breather cap off.

bob57 · January 2002

Been taking one of my vehicles (NOT the Sienna) to Jiffy Lube for quite a while - which of course I stand there and watch everything like a hawk. At least where I go they initial and date the oil filter on every oil change. They also bring customers out of their waiting room to show and verify the oil level.
Don't know if it's a local thing or what.
Like Wain said above, just check it no matter who does it.

wain · January 2002

Jiffy lube here uses bulk oil - you have no idea what it is.

bob57 · January 2002

According to all the numerous signs in the bays and on the front of the building (did we say paranoid?) it's your choice of Pennzoil or Quaker State. I've used them (Jiffy) on a Honda I had the whole 160K miles specifying Pennzoil and never had any problem. Of course, that's not saying it was definitely Pennzoil. I haven't looked at their storage drums either but at every oil change the drained oil comes out looking pretty clean. I'm sure these guys want to hide when I come in there because I've got my nose into everything they do. "Let me see the oil from the filter...I want to see the crankcase oil too...".
This is NOT a recommendation for Jiffy - just my experience at only one place.

mrrogers · January 2002

I was wondering though that if you increase the oil capacity by say 20% by adding an oil cooler and/or remote oil filter, does it follow that the oil would last 20% longer before in failed (sludged)?

isellhondas · January 2002

I'm surprised they haven't thrown you out!

You are the kind of guy who probably should be changing your own oil!

antiosama · January 2002

So anybody know of a way to remove some minor sludge at home? I have a 95 ES300 with 105K miles. I recently took it to the dealer and had them do the Engine Flush which costs about a $120. ANyway they did it, but when I take off the oil lid their is still oil sludge right under the oil cap. there's a lot of it. Anyway to remove it?

mrrogers · January 2002

attachments. You may want to read the section on sludge removal. Good luck!

Mr_Shiftright · January 2002

mrrogers---good question but I don't know. At any rate, increasing oil capacity doesn't really get at the problem, does it?

mrrogers · January 2002

is probably not a cure all. My late Father never liked those downsized oil filters either. I remember him searching in a filter catalog for a marine oil filter for his Volvo 142S. It seems the Volvo marine engine used a bigger oil filter than the automotive application. Getting back to the Toyota Sienna sludge problem, what are your thoughts concerning whether the PCV system redesign in 1997 for the ULEV engine is a factor? I wonder if Sienna owners should consider retofitting the 1996 PCV system?

cliffy1 · January 2002

Funny this should come up. Just today, we had a brand new Avalon towed into our dealership with 20 miles on it and the customer complaining of smoke coming from the tail pipe. Our service advisor was a bit shocked and opened the hood and checked the oil.

He noted that the level on the dip stick was very high. When he questioned the customer, they told him that they had added 3 extra quarts! Why they did this is a mystery.

We drained it and put the appropriate amount of oil back in. It left with no visible smoke.

bob57 · January 2002

I used to do it all myself. I've built up so many quater mile racing engines (blew a few up too...), changed oil & filters a million times, rebuilt carbs (hated that) & tinkered for 45 years I just got tired of the greasy hands and dirty fingernails. Purchased a Honda 15 years ago and couldn't crawl under it (too dang low & my mid section too high) I just called it quits then, slowed down and let someone else do it all now. (the grease didn't look all that good on this gray hair either)
Of course, in reference to my post above, I didn't go stupid and blind (yet). But, if you ask my wife you'll get another story on that part

)

catgem · January 2002

In the past week or so,I have gotten at least 20 forwards from Charlene Blake...has anyone else???

bob57 · January 2002

You're just lucky I guess....
lol

Mr_Shiftright · January 2002

there ARE e-mail filters.

catgem · January 2002

Have never before blocked mail,but have had my daughter do this for me now...there were just so MANY of them....I really do not understand,had one contact with that person 6 months ago....why all these messages now??

210delray · January 2002

Are her e-mails still asking, "Got Sludge?"

jj35 · January 2002

You could try to send her a reply and ask to be taken off her mailing list. I am also on the mailing list (it is quite long and I assume it is composed of people who have contacted her at one time or another about engine sludge). The recent flurry of activity is probably due to the start of a new site a week or so ago to serve as a forum for people who have had engine sludge in Toyotas. It has been started by Jamie Ott who is serving as moderator and you can contact him for info on joining at toyotasludge@yahoogroups.com. He is going to try his best to screen out the crazies so it doesn't turn into another complaint station-like site. Moderators DO come in handy. (Thank you Mr. Shiftright.)

catgem · January 2002

I figured it was nothing ominous,but it was a bit annoying to get so many forwards,many of them duplicates. It must be hard when you have a long mailing list...figured there was no bad intent. I just do not like forwards,unless from a friend,or really relevant. Will check out the new site,but wish SOMETHING would really happen with Toyota...like a news story. I am a member of Consumers Unioon,and am very disappointed in their silence on sludge.

Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

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