Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

mrrogers · February 2002

valve cover to inspect for sludge. I feel $50 is fair and reasonable.

maltb · February 2002

" I feel $50 is fair and reasonable."

Oh, so you've done the job before? I always love when people say something should cost X-dollars because it sounds right.

mrrogers · February 2002

later with regards to the oil change interval on these two Lexus/Toyota engines. I remember the Certifield Lubricant Specialist on this site posting that his data revealed that after 4,000 miles, one in ten Toyota V-6 engines could experience oil failure that could lead to sludge. Kind of makes a person wonder if Toyota's 3,750 mile recommendation is based on similar data?

innovations · February 2002

Valve Cover Pull.

I've seen numbers ranging from $30 up to $300. Unfortunatly, my dealership was the $300 quote. Since I'm not much of a mechanic, I'll need to depend on someone doing the work and haven't really heard what is a valid price for a 2001 Sienna. I suspect $300 is the extreme upper end of the range.

Has anyone actually paid a mechanic to do a Valve Cover pull and what price did you pay?

Thanks for any info!

fxashun · February 2002

Once again you are missing the point. Your statement would make a lot of sense if it weren't for the fact that MANY MANY MANY cars are bought at auction. Not just Toyotas but Bimmers, Benzes, Audi, Honda, Nissan, and most other makes but the memo specifically indicated Toyota.

Not to mention all the other sources that have indicated these vehicles. Once again if this problem were so universal wouldn't there be others here? I mean at least a couple. One maybe in the last few months at least. But no it's ALL Toyota. And not all Toyota, just those with the engines that strangely Toyota says has a problem. Go figure.

And one more thing I have failed to notice...If this problem were universal and caused be owner maintenance wouldn't there be other people that at least complained about it here on Edmunds? I mean in every forum there are people that complain about squeaks and rattles and dimming lights and alignment but there are no sludged or seized engine complaints on other forums that I have seen. And as I said before if this were a universal "owner maintenance" problem why did Toyota not include ALL their engines? Hmmm.

My e-mail's on my profile.

Oh yeah wait you reminded me of one more thing...You say that the Toyotas bought at auction are more prone to sludging since the owners may not have cared for them as well as people who buy. Another way of looking at it is that since most cars at auction are there at around 30,000 miles, that's about the time some engines are failing. Not only would that explain the high incidence of sludging but it also would cut drastically in the number of owner warranty complaints. If the cars are sold to someone off lease, they would have NO proof of prior maintenance.

john339 · February 2002

I wouldn't tag anyone on here an alarmist just because they question what is going with this specific set of engines and specific model year Toyotas. Obviously there is a problem, I don't see how anyone can say there is not. Many independent observers came to the same conclusion that there is a problem, and they came to this conclusion independently, by there own observation and experience.

As reported by Automotive News, expert, independent mechanics starting noticing a large number of Toyotas coming through their shops for sludge-related engine repairs/replacements. These Toyotas were all related by engine type and model year. (Incidently, these repairs at independent mechanics are most likely not counted in Toyotas now 3200 complaints.) These independent mechanics rightly question why there is a spike in this type of problem and why don't they see that same rate of problem on other manufacturers products or even other models of Toyotas.

CarMax has an economic incentive to watch out for problem cars. They evidently saw these problems back in 1999, long before any 'alarmists' on the Internet started talking about them.

Also, the Better Business Bureau came to the same conclusion that something is badly amiss, and that Toyota is not repsonding appropriately to it. The BBB even gave Toyota "an unsatifactory business performance record" because of this problem.

fxashun · February 2002

Check the date.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=carmax+sludge&hl=en&selm=FEY0OINerOiBE5JGIwyu9IKPNcsl@4ax.com&rnum=1

wain · February 2002

the toy 4 cyl valve cover gasket costs about $12.

How much labor?
1 hour maybe 2?

maltb · February 2002

According to Mitchel, the labor to R & R a valve cover, Left or Right is 3.4 hrs. The gasket is $13.12.

So assuming $80 per hour labor(depending on where you are), that gets you pretty close to $300.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2002

I think an "alarmist" is actully anyone who even suggests there is a "major" problem wiithout the some statistics to back it up.

If their Toyota is sludged, they have collected one statistic. If they meet 6 people on Edmunds with this problem, then they have a statistic of 7 failures. If Toyota gives a number or percentage of people complaining, then it's their Toyota and their Town Hall friends plus .1% of owners. So that's better. You can say with assurance 3007 owners.

Does this allow you to say "Toyotas catastrophic engine failures". No, then you are still an alarmist. Can you say "there's a problem here with sludging in some Toyota engines". Yep, I think that is fair, you are on solid ground and immune from the label of "alarmist".

It's like that Saab statistic I quoted....8% head gasket failure. This allows me to say, I think, that Saab had, at one time a "substantial head gasket problem on the blah blah models, years blah to blah". This does not allow me to say "All Saab engines have bad head gaskets".

Am I being too harsh here?

joe1948 · February 2002

The Sienna front valve cover is easy to pull and has a built in rubber seal so there's no gasket to replace. The local dealer here wanted $40.00 but I did it myself. These $300-$400 estimates I see astound me and I can only assume that they involve pulling both covers and even that would be too high IMHO. It's almost as if they're trying to discourage you from investigating this issue. Once you pull the front cover once and see what's involved, you could probably do it again in 30-60 mins. start to finish. Just depends on how fast you like to work. The cover bolts are not torqued very tightly and surprised me on how easily they broke loose with a small ratchet. I too have the "mystery grit" at the oil fill opening but my valve train was very clean. This was mostly with dino oil at 3-5K changes.(98 with 47k miles) I am going to Mobil 1 though but increasing the interval to 7.5k.
Perhaps this rubber seal is supposed to be replaced, but mine is not leaking after about 500 miles (with synthetic oil). I had a 78 Mazda GLC that required checking valve clearances every 10,000 miles. It too had a built in rubber seal. I removed the cover each time for about 100,000 miles and never had the gasket leak. Luck, maybe so but I always thought this type of cover seal was far superior to the old replacable gasket type. No, I'm not an auto mechanic any any means and I don't have a shop manual for this vehicle but maybe this info will be useful.

cliffy1 · February 2002

If you only pull one, the cost should be pretty low and one is all you need. It is possible that a dealer didn't understand the question and quoted $300 to pull both. The back one is not easy to access. The whole intake manifold would need to come off.

maltb · February 2002

go easy on Shifty...he's probably the most reasonable and levelheaded host out there.

wain · February 2002

the 4 cyl has only one valve cover
whats the labor charge to change it?

maltb · February 2002

Less than 1hr per Mitchel, but that's not a fair comparison.

zielinw · February 2002

You have got to be kidding.

Attacking Mr. Shiftright for giving his opinions. We should be so lucky. Take a look at his bio. I would rather have some informed well thought-out opinions, as opposed to the other types.

But, whatever floats your boat!!!

fxashun · February 2002

Almost as fun as the Leganza board was until they said we can't talk about nothing but the Leganza. Who wants to talk about the Leganza?

cgoetze · February 2002

It depends on how you define catastrophic. To some the gradual failure of a major component (the engine) is catastrophic, i.e. the engine fails to start. To others it would need to be a sudden failure, the engine seizes at 60 mph. Both definitions can apply.

isellhondas · February 2002

You have no idea how fortunate we are to have Shifty as our host. Not sure how Edmunds landed him but we all can learn a great deal from him.

He reminds me of a well educated talk show host.

teo · February 2002

Yep, and he can be nasty at times too. Sure he has that "delete" button at his fingertips. Knowledgeable guy that sometimes comes off a bit rough on others that don't agree with him.

Just an opinion.....

fxashun · February 2002

When it comes to scrambling posts. Not that Pat's not cool wit me an all. :::sheepish grin:::

catgem · February 2002

about the oil filter never having been changed(with 3 oil changes!). Yes,I was billed at Texaco for filters. The Toyota service writer was a tall blond guy named Jesse. I would think that the filter would have come up at arbitation,as evidece of my "neglect". I am willing to let it go,sice it is human nature(especially in Big Business) to deny,deny,deny. As well,sice I did not SEE the oil filter replacements being done,who is to say?

fxashun · February 2002

I know if I had been your tech or service writer I would have immediately called this to your attention since that would have been a slam dunk case against that Texaco. And to cover my @#$ I would have typed it in all caps on the invoice, highlighted it, and circled it. I know I didn't see it on the invoice you sent me. But as long as you get your money back.

shopper101 · February 2002

I agree with fxashun that the dealer's claim sounds improbable. They would have revealed it much earlier if it were true. They have no motivation of withholding this crucial information until the case is settled.

Toyota settled the case by paying full refund, but it gained an important point: it's not the engine design flaw; it's the lack of maintenance.

I can imagine the Toyota's database will have the following entry:

case XXX, owner: "catgem," amount settled: $4600, cause: lack of maintence. This may be true. But the way it plays out does not look credible to me.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2002

Sure a host can have opinions but if ever anyone feels the Host is butting in too much I certainly don't mind backing off on posts. Besides I only post in just a few topics that interest me. It keeps me interested. I mean, who wants to just be a "cyber-cop", that's no fun. So if I'm in your topic this is a sincere compliment.

But you let me know, it doesn't hurt my feelings to stay out, really.

Teo, was I mean to you? Sorry. Sometimes, though, people really do confuse the fact that the Host is not censoring your opinion but only the method of delivery (e.g., delivering a pizza by handing it or by throwing it are two very different ways of handling the same basic object).

mrrogers · February 2002

helpful. I encourage you to continue posting.

joatmon · February 2002

Shifty,

I think you bring a needed perspective to this topic. You don't seem to have a dog in the fight.

I think I'm like many observers who just want to know what really caused a well built, reliable mark to stumble.

1. Is it an engine redesign not well tested?
2. Owner neglect, especially leasers?
3. Jiffy weforgotto Lube?
4. An oil brand that doesn't handle the heat well?
5. PCV valve plugging up?

Hey, maybe a combo?

I'm staying tuned.

stealth1969 · February 2002

Keep up with the posts and the great job you are doing. Thanks.

cliffy1 · February 2002

You and I have had our disagreements in the past, but one thing will never change; I will always respect your opinions. In this case, our opinions are not too far apart but even when we differed, I certainly would not want to miss hearing your perspective.

canc · February 2002

"2. Owner neglect, especially leasers?"

Although you have to be careful when buying a used or slightly used car, leasers in this respect don't differ much from others. If anything, leasers have to maintain the car well (especially the exterior), since they get slapped on with penalties from the dealership if it's damaged.

As an example, I recently bought a very slightly used 2000 Solara SE V6 (19,000 miles), that was originally bought at the dealer, resold to the dealer, and the people bought another Toyota at the same dealership. Good thing, because I had access to a computerized list of the oil changes and other maintenance (changed the air filter) on the car when I bought it.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2002

I wonder if this whole thing will turn out to be one of those cases of "no maintenance slack", wherein the car is too closely engineered for the average American's maintenance habits.

This is what really happened to the Corvair in fact. You were supposed to maintain STRICT tire pressures at all times, and people didn't and they got into trouble with the car. Also folks weren't used to owning air-cooled cars, and their driving habits did not follow factory recommendations in that regard either.

wain · February 2002

and most of the early corvair valve covers leaked.
seems GM could have at least copied the VW bug

wain · February 2002

I think the next BIG BIG issue that will really come up and it has been coming up already is what is the cause of the sludge,
and what has been, or will be done to prevent it in the future (other than the -- change your oil more --recommendation)
so that then the "sludge risk' of a Toyota will be the same as other cars.

webguyster · February 2002

I just got a call from my local dealer, very polite, after escalating my few minor problems, to Toyota's corp level, and complaining about the P.R. person at the local dealership. Tomorrow I am to bring my 2000 Solara SE V6 in for some trim work, rocking chair, and why it always pulls left, etc, and I will probably get a loaner car, yeah!!! I hope they don't mess my car up! I mentioned that a few weeks ago my car was idleing rough and a throttle body cleaning and fuel injection cleaning, was recommended. Result,that I just gave them my money as it did not solve my rough idle, I mentioned the sludge issue, only to politely have my head ripped off through the phone. "Only improper maintanance will cause sludge!!!" EECH!!!! He told me, "it's winter, and the gas quaility is different. The gas companies add more alcohol in the winter." Okay, maybe he is correct, but it seems that they are already very well versed in what to say to anyone who says "SLUDGE"!

OH SHIFTY, don't stop posting. You actually seem to know about cars!?!

cliffy1 · February 2002

Attitude aside, they are correct about the gas. I don't know about where you live, but here in Virginia, we have "oxygenated" fuel from November 1 to February 28. Bad gas mileage is normally the worst result of this, but I imagine it may also have something to do with the rough idle.

ramblinon · February 2002

also posted at the Solara sorry repeat for any that read that one. Had my 1999 Solara SLE, 38,845 miles, checked at the dealership today and was informed of the following: 1. They had all my records and I had every service and oil change done as required. 2. The burnt oil visable when taking off the oil filter cap, on the ledge, is a result of oil sitting there and over heating and is not of any concern. 3. Informed that Toyoto is only concerned with vehicles that are burning large amounts of oil and have a visable oil burning exhaust when starting the engine.. Informed that given my service history that it would be nearly impossible for my engine to Gel. 5. Continue to have the services done as called for in the manual (I change oil/filter every 3k to 5K). Had my oil changed while there and watched the fairly clean oil flow freely from the engine. The dealershipis swamped with calls from concerned owners.

lbthedawg · February 2002

"and most of the early corvair valve covers leaked.
seems GM could have at least copied the VW bug"

And Bugs didn't?

rayfbaird · February 2002

I guess they have to go down fighting to preserve their so called integrity. I've followed your posts for the past few months and the following information came out.

1. You used Havoline, generally considered a high quality oil.

2. You had oil changes for at least 10 years at the same location with at least 2 other vehicles all without any problems before your Sienna sludged.

3. They blamed your quality of oil first.

4. No mention of the oil filter was done even though they did the actual cleanup.

5. You had detailed discussions with Cobb Toyota and even went through an arbitration process. All without mentioning that the original filter was on the car.

6. The Station you always used would neglect changing a filter on the vehicle that would cause them the most liability, while always changing it on your older vehicles?

7. Now that the claim has been made and agreed to be paid, the Dealership suddenly "remembers" that the van had the original filter.

At this point you will have to pardon my skepticism.

gmlover1 · February 2002

Shifty keep it up, it's good to have someone who actually knows what he talking about.

canc · February 2002

Is the black and hard stuff you see when you open up your oil filler cap what they'd call carbon deposit? I checked tonight and I have that too. I could scratch it out.

webguyster · February 2002

The dealer is probably correct about the gas, as the car is smooth when she is moving. I live outside Chicago. I was just surprised how while having a friendly conversation with the service manager, who was more polite than I have ever heard him before, that the second I mentioned sludge, he barked out that phrase about the sludge, yet, very politly. I am sure they are beseiged with inquiries. I do not think I am a sludge victem, or will be, and I too have the black stuff when you open the filler cap, like an uncleaned BBQ grill, or a map of the planet Mars, where rivers and canals used to be, just some crusty stuff, but not flaking. I am impressed that I got a call from the service manager, as last year he told me the other issues with the car were wear and tear, and today says ALL Solara's pull left, and the seats frequently have this problem, but there are things they can do to work around that, and even different tires(I have Michelins 16 in, 2 repalced cuz of the drift/pull)that will make the drift/pull less noticable. I am just a bit miffed about Toyota, as they had such a good reputation, and I only purchased my car from them, after unsucessfully getting an Acura salesman to come out to his lot and show me a car. I went down the street to Toyota, where I was in and out. I also like the local service departments hours, open until midnight. I am not totally against Toyota customer service, as I worked for a company that consistantly won the J.D. Powers Award every year, and we had horrible products, and services. It's all about Bottom Line, profit, needs of the business, and share holders. Get the customer, get his/her money, lock 'em into a contract, and get 'em out!

On a side not, Cliffy1, do you know anything about a program where the dealer offers cars at invoice, no haggling. When I called about it, after recieving a card, I was told to come in and they would be happy to answer my questions, but not over the phone. I did ask about a Rav4, as I would not mind picking one up, but they said this was not one of the cars this promo covers. Is this a dealer thing, or a Toyota program?

cliffy1 · February 2002

Its a dealer thing. There is no such program with Toyota except for large scale corporate purchase programs. The fact that they would not discuss price over the phone is the tip off.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2002

I would discourage making too much of a generalization of the condition of the engine strictly by examining the oil filler cap. You need to dig deeper for this sort of thing.

catgem · February 2002

Mr. Shiftright- I have learned a lot from your posts,and I am glad to see such an involved host...even though you did delete my posts once,when I got really mad at the pilot. I learned from the experience. Thank you for keeping this topic open!
Rayfbaird- I think you are correct about my air filter,but ancient oriental wisdom says that one must always let one's opponent save face. Or something like that.

davedave1 · February 2002

at a Northern Va. dealership when shopping for a pickup, the service manager acknowledged that sludge had been discussed in one of their managers meetings. His line was that Toyota had somehow gotten hold of representative Sienna's at various levels of maintenance; 7500 or worse oil changes, poor over all maintenance; approx 5000 mi changes and 3000 mile changes. I suppose these could be controlled situations insofar as this had been going on awhile. Anyway he said 7500 mile engines had sludge, 5000 mi. some buildup and 3000 mile maint. interval virually sludge free. Take this at face value....
It appears toyota is sticking by the maintenance issue and ignoring their own maintenance manual problems.
I am still waiting for a PCV valve issue to come up; if 5k maintenance can cause some sludge, it could easily contaminate the PCV, which would accelerate sludge as crankcase ventilation is then restricted. There is no specified maintenance for the PCV valve, and it's not easy to reach on these transverse mounted v6's..

ramblinon · February 2002

I not sure if it is carbon or simply burnt oil. It is very hard, dark colored and has apparently been there, on the shelf (so to speak)gradually building up. I was told this was not gel and not harmful and not a concern. Hope that helps some. Although I filled up with Dino oil today, from now on I will bring Mobil 1 5W30 to the Dealer and let them install and record the maint.

im_brentwood · February 2002

Yup...

Normal.

There's always gonna be some crusty nastiness under there.. no worries

Bill

pronigier · February 2002

My Toyota Extra Care Extended Warrenty says to change the oil every 7500 miles or 6 months. I changed it at about 5000 and 4 months on average. My 1997 4 Camry smokes in the morning. I brought it to the dealer and they said they saw a "puff" of smoke. They added BG MOA ,along with an oil change and also added something to the gas tank. They said that one quart of oil every thousand miles is ok. I am supposed to go back after 1000 miles to have consumption checked. They drained the oil out again because I asked them how they were going to check it after 1000 miles if it is overfilled after the oil change. I guess this drained out most of the BG MOA , because they gave me a can to add myself . I havn't added can number two of BG MOA yet, because oil is still overfilled. The car smokes less now with whatever BG MOA is left in the engine. The question I have now is DOES BG-MOA CURE WHATEVER IS CAUSING THE SMOKING PROBLEM ? The car used to smoke alot in the morning, not just a puff.I know the car only burns 1/2 quart in 3000 miles. My extended warrenty lasts until June 2003. I have never had a car that smoked at 70000 miles before. I expected more from a 20000 dollar Toyota. Thanks

zielinw · February 2002

The last few posts that give Toyota's response such as: 5000 miles shows some buildup, and the car is under warranty and smokes, so just add some BG MOA, are very poor responses.

Pay $15k to $40k for a car, have Toyota blame the owner's for the sludge (even-though the problem is not repeatable on other new cars), then after a BBB ruling against them they issue an SPA (out of kindness to the owners), what a cruel series jokes.

Now it appears that Toyota is going to fix it problems with BG MOA, why not motor-honey, and STP? So much for the "proud professionals" at the dealerships.

Am I being too harsh?

Ok, are you ready for a really bad maintenance story? I had a 53 Ford flat-head eight, the burned oil at a rate of 1 quart per hundred miles. It was suggested to just add motor honey, and use cheap oil (10 cents a quart), which I did. This worked until the winter-time when the car would not crank. The solution, just dilute the oil with kerosene in the winter, so I tried that. It worked again, the car lasted for two years, until I sold it. It is hard to imagine much worse abuse then that.

canc · February 2002

I went to see my cousin yesterday, who happens to be a mechanic, because of that crusty build-up under the oil cap. He too said it was perfectly fine, and cleaned it out. Just like Ramblinon's mechanic said, it's oil that, when poured, goes from that point and spreads to the valves. The leftover oil just sits there and eventually "cooks" there, causing absolutely no harm to the engine.

Thanks to Ramblinon for posting this info. though, and for others that followed with solutions.

Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

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