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Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

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Comments

  • phillipmphillipm Member Posts: 32
    I too thought that was some kind of krinkle finish on my 1998 Sienna. Then, I looked under the cap on a new Sienna and surprise, there was shiny bright metal. I took a small pocket knife and with light pressure I scraped off the black, gritty, tarry build-up. Some of the posts on Edmunds says that is "normal" carbon build-up and not to worry. Others say it is not normal and could be an early sign of sludge. Yes, as I originally posted in this topic #3507 my oil changes have been every 3,000 to 3,500 miles using Toyota filters and switched to Mobil I 5w-30 at 30,000 miles. Now have 40,000 miles. My Toyota dealer wants to charge me $300 to pull the front valve cover and inspect for sludge. If this black, gritty build-up under the oil filler cap is a "possible" sign of sludge why won't Toyota pay for this valve cover removal inspection? Some posts say it is a simple task while others say it is a 5 to 6 hour procedure and that is the reason for the $300 fee. I'm afraid to tackle the project myself but just not in the position st this time to shell out $300 for something that I think Toyota should be doing as part of their "good will" gesture. I'll keep changing oil and filters regularly, keep my fingers crossed, and hope this black, krinkle finish you mentioned is nothing to worry about.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    RE: Arbitration --it can be binding or non-binding, as you say. I've done both. I don't think the purpose of arbitration is as a substitute for litigation, but rather as a deterrent.

    BBB- The Better Business Bureau are not car people. They are consumer & business people. So they might be criticizing Toyota on how they handle the consumer, that's possible, but they might still not have a clue as to the sludge problem or its causes.

    What I mean is that just because the BBB has publicly rebuked Toyota, that does not mean that Toyota has a defective product, only a defective way of dealing with complaints.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Just to pull one valve cover? I looked at a Sienna and it looks like a fifteen minute job!

    Maybe I'm in the wrong business!
  • fxashunfxashun Member Posts: 747
    The black stuff on the oil filler is probably not a good indication of sludge, I would like to add something to that. Just think of how hot that oil had to get to burn lie that in that location. Something is getting VERY hot in the top of that engine. Think of other cars you have had that may have had an oil leak and try to remember if the oil burned like that. The only time I remember oil burning on any of my cars like that was if it fell directly on the exhaust manifold.
  • innovationsinnovations Member Posts: 69
    Yep. $300 Valve Cover quoted to me too. I was amazed that they were making it so difficult to find out if there was a sludge problem with my Toyota when it could come back and bite them later.

    Cliffy mentioned that they could be quoting pulling both valve covers. That makes some sense.. especially considering the fact the service guy at the dealership took 15 minutes to come up with the $300 quote. He flipped through his book punching in everything he could come up with. I think he was doing his best but didn't have a clue.

    I think I'm in the wrong business too :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's just wrong. I don't think even a Ferrari engine takes 4.0 hours to R&R a valve cover.

    Maybe he meant oil pan.
  • innovationsinnovations Member Posts: 69
    He knew. I questioned him at least twice. I'm going to check with some of the other dealerships and try to find out if it's the going rate. If anyone else has seen any other quotes it would be nice to hear from you.
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    Front cover is easy but the rear may require removing some of the injection crap to get to the cover. I think they quoted both covers when only the front one may be needed.
  • sandman46sandman46 Member Posts: 1,798
    for the people that ended up with our sludged '96 LE 4 banger. I'm sure the Nissan dealer wholesaled that baby out since it had a little over 80k on the odo. The funny thing is the Toyota mechanic told me about it while the service writer was talking to the wife about us paying to desludge the engine. The mechanic told us to get rid of it while the service writer came up with a bill for over $2200. to fix this and some other problems.
    All this happened in the beginning of November of 2000. I think now that Toyota would've jerked me around over this since they probaly knew about this problem. I lost faith in Toyota at that point and didn't push much for the '01 Camry LE. The wife really preferred the Altima anyways and loves her Alty more as each day passes.
    All in all,a very sad situation for Toyota and its customers. What should be done is this:
    1) recognize the problem
    2) accept responsibility and don't put the blame on others
    3) correct the problem.
    End of story. It's time to move on with all this!
  • aguywhowritesaguywhowrites Member Posts: 11
    Just a reminder, if this "sludge problem" turns out to be real and results in major litigation, then Toyota has a perfect right to Subpoena Edmunds and get the true names of every one who may have said unkind things about them. Its unfortunate, but true.
  • webguysterwebguyster Member Posts: 434
    I do not believe anyone is posting anything that they would not or have not voiced to Toyota. Some people actually were using this thread, as a means to start legal actions, and acquire people to use in a class action suit. If anything, Toyota should be, and probably is reading various threads, and if they have bad service, or a faulty product, they should be more pro-active in resolving customers issues. Having worked in customer service for too many years, I am acustom to the words, "I can help you with that!', or " I don't know, but I will find out!", and even spending a little money to "retain" our customer base. Believe it, a company spending money to make you their customer!?! Being involved may help many people who do not have any knowledge of these problems, and forking over hard earned dollars to Toyota for new engines, and other problems with their car, that they did not bring on themselves. This is Edmunds, not World War 2, [non-permissible content removed] Germany! Nobody should even entertain the idea of not voicing there opinions, or problems for fear that Toyota might come after them, or Edmunds.
  • rayfbairdrayfbaird Member Posts: 183
    Since you're OK, keep it up. You might want to consider a higher mileage oil. I know that Valvoline's maxlife really resists sludging. You can get their document sent to you from www.valvoline.com/maxlife
  • rob133rob133 Member Posts: 24
    Yea, wouldn't that be rich, first Toyota sells you a car and says it will go 7500 between oil changes, then after you buy the car their reps 'strongly urge' you not to go more than 3000 miles between oil changes, and then they tell you to make sure you only get your oil changed at one of their dealers because they don't care about receipts from anyone else. And by the way, it might be a good idea to pay one of their dealers to pull the valve cover off just to see if any sludge is there. But make sure you don't ever complain about any of this cuz they might subpoena you. Is their legal department bigger than their customer service department?
  • mrrogersmrrogers Member Posts: 391
    This morning's WSJ online edition has a column called, "Eyes on the Road" by Joseph White. He talks about Toyota and sludge, and mentions the Edmunds' Engine Sludge website by name. I am not sure if it is in the WSJ print edition.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No one is allowed to solicit names for litigation on Edmunds.

    This is a clear violation of the Member Agreement.

    Please report any attempts at such solicitation to the Host! Any attempt to solicit you will result in the deletion of the post and a warning to the poster. Thank you!

    Mr. Shiftright
    Host
    Maintenance & Repair Message Board
  • sell01siennasell01sienna Member Posts: 6
    Thanks, phillipm, saves me the hassle on my next visit to dealer

    Got an estimate for removing & replacing front valve cover from AAA rated garage,$45+ gasket, if required
  • pjksrpjksr Member Posts: 111
    I have a 2002 Sienna Repair Manual. They call the valve cover a "cylinder head cover," which may explain a little of the confusion at some service desks. The 1MZ engine faces the passenger side, so the left cover is near the front, and is easier to remove.

    When you reinstall the cover, Toyota calls for "seal packing" under a new gasket, at the corners. Torque the cover's bolts to 8 [N-m], yes, eight.

    I might suggest buying a new PCV valve when you get your gasket. The PCV valve sits on the right valve cover.
  • sell01siennasell01sienna Member Posts: 6
    Where can I get a manual (not from the dealer)?
  • ramblinonramblinon Member Posts: 80
    I really don't want to continue a running dialogue with you. You quite simply refuted that what I experienced and heard at the Checkered Flag Dealership. What I experienced happened exactly as I reported. As I stated I don't take lightly to being called, for all intents and purposes, a liar. Until your entering this discussion/reporting forum I had nothing but kind things to say of the Toyoto (Toyota) dealership in Virginia Beach. You quite simply changed my line of reasoning.

    1. You an employee of the Dealership joining in what has become an extension of Customer Non-Service.

    2. When an attempt has been made to belittle a customer it speaks volumes.

    3. What difference does it make it I bought my Solara at Checkered Flag as you inquired? However, I did and early after release of the model. I paid Sticker Price $28K+. I never received the second ignition key or Auto Entry/Alarm Fob......after three visits to the show room my wife simply gave it up.

    4. Your input has given me pause to return to the Checkered Flag Dealership as I'm leary that my service may not go well. I feel an attempt may be made to identify the vehicle. I am checking today if my "complete" records can be obtained by another local dealer.

    I do appreciate you spelling lesson however.

    I care for no further discussion with you as it is futile.
  • john339john339 Member Posts: 229
    It simply amazes me how Toyota and their dealers attack their customers if they dare complain. I agree with your statements about mackabees posts. It is incredible that a Toyota rep would be so childish as to publicly attack a customer for a simple typo.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    Would you mind sending me an e-mail. I have a couple of questions for you that are not germane to this discussion. My e-mail address is in my profile.

    Thanks.
  • jimmuh1jimmuh1 Member Posts: 72
    cliffy: Sorry, I didn't get back right away, as I didn't have access from my hotel. To answer you question, the 2.2L has had various TSB's where the ECM would need be replaced. The misfire ones especially concern me because if not correctly identified could cause the engine to overheat, correct?

    I mean, the OBDII is there for a reason, why isn't this one of the first places a tech would look to help identify a problem?

    My observation based on your reply is that the tech's aren't concerned so much with identifying problems as they are proving it is the owners faults.

    Jamie
  • jimmuh1jimmuh1 Member Posts: 72
    I was the one found the BBB report initially. If you want to see it for yourself, go to http://search.bbb.org/national/search.html, then search for Toyota Motor Sales, USA in Torrance, CA.


    Actually, this is what the report says, you be the judge:


    "Based on our standards, we rate this company as having an unsatisfactory business performance record. Complaints contain a pattern of allegations concerning warranty and repair issues. Some customers complained they experienced repeated problems with certain components, found zone office representatives unwilling to help with repairs costs, or were dissatisfied with extended warranty claims procedures. The company responded to some complaints by offering additional repairs, explanations for denying assistance, or by issuing partial refunds or reimbursements in some cases. Some were clos The Better Business Bureau does not endorse, recommend or disapprove of any product, service or company. "


    While I imagine many of the complaints are stemming from 'engine sludge', I've talked to other co-workers and other Toyota owners and nearly all have related poor customer service when it comes to getting something repaired under warranty.


    And as far as arbitration goes, check you state laws regarding Auto Repairs...just because you go to arbitration it does not mean you cannot pursue legal recourse...even if you win.

  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    First,

    This discussion has gotten WAY out of hand IMO. I think that a lot of this discussion has gone beyond logic.

    That being said, here's what I KNOW:

    Toyota reported that about 3,000 engines have sludged/gelled out of over 3,000,000.

    That is one in One Thousand. That's not a lot at all. Are all of those due to design faults or bad engines? I doubt it. I'm sure there are somebad apples in there. I'm sure there is some bad maintinence in there.

    I KNOW that I have bought MANY Toyotas with high miles, and MANY of them were poorly maintained. I know that NOT ONE has had a sludged engine since September/October when I started checking. I also know that NONE of the bigToyota buyers that I know are aware of this being an issue.

    And no I dont have time to start just tearing engines apart just to satisfy the concerns or curiosities of someone on a chat board.

    I personally think that a few incredibly vocal people have turned a molehill into the Himalayas.

    This has also become a serious pissing contest.

    ramblinon, I think that you started with Mackabee. I've seen his posts for nigh on 5 years here and I dont think that I have once seen him step to the level that you accuse him of. What's the problem? he didnt agree with you? And who is calling who a liar here?

    This is what I saw Mack say:

    . I do work at a dealership in Virginia Beach where a certain poster described as having 5 or 6 assistant service writers. We have 4 service writers. He mentioned the dealership being swamped with calls of "concerned customers" when he brought his vehicle in for service, yet I checked the logs and all are for routine maintenace, state inspections and the like.

    I don't see any personal attacks in there. And I also don't see him calling you a liar. Or, do you feel that unless someone blindly agrees with your opinions that they are calling you a liar?

    I think we all need to relax a bit in here.

    Bill
  • sgrd0qsgrd0q Member Posts: 398
    Did I miss something? Why do some people here refer to Toyota as Toyoto? Just curious...
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    The OBDII port is only a diagnostic tool if a problem caused a warning light to be tripped. It is of no value in determining if sludge exists.
  • maltbmaltb Member Posts: 3,572
    It would only be fair to see what other car manufacturer BBB ratings are. Somehow, I don't think you'll find many favorable entries.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    There is more than one BBB. These are regional things and I was wondering if anybody has thought to ask if perhaps the California BBB has a problem with Toyota that does not exist in other regions. To answer this, I went snooping on the BBB web site.

    There are three links to "Toyota Motor Sales". One is in the LA region and that is the one that people here have quoted. A second one just shows a bunch of error messages. The third is from the Cincinnati region and the story there is completely different. Below is the quote:

    "Based on BBB files, this company has a satisfactory record with the Bureau.

    To have a Satisfactory Record with the Bureau, a company must be in business for at least 12 months, properly and promptly address matters referred to it by the Bureau, and be free from an unusual volume or pattern of complaints and law enforcement action involving its marketplace conduct. In addition, the Bureau must have a clear understanding of the company's business and no concerns about its industry."

    Let's make sure we have the full story before pursing the BBB angle here.
  • jimmuh1jimmuh1 Member Posts: 72
    I think that most would agree here that sludge is not a cause but a result. Even my local tech agreed with that.

    So it's not possible to have a dianostic code and NOT a MIL indicator?

    Jamie
  • jimmuh1jimmuh1 Member Posts: 72
    Toyota Motor Sales, USA located in Torrance, CA is the Toyota HQ, is it not? That's the address I'm told to write to if I have a problem, right?

    The information listed there is for the local area, yes, but if you file a complaint against Toyota corporate that is the office it is sent to.

    As I said, you be the judge.

    Jamie
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    Again, this is from the CA BBB office:

    "Based on BBB complaint files, this company has an unsatisfactory record with the Bureau due to one or more unanswered and/or two or more otherwise unresolved complaints.

    The following data concerns complaints processed by the BBB since the firm's file was opened or over the last 36 months, whichever is less. Ford Motor Co has had 7 complaints. 1 was closed as Resolved. 2 were closed as Assumed Resolved. 1 was closed as Reasonably Explained to the Bureau's Satisfaction.3 were closed as No Response. "

    Just for the heck of it, here is what the same office has to say about Nissan:

    "Complainants generally allege vehicles purchased are manufacturer defective. Some customers complain of reoccuring mechanical or non-mechanical problems. Other customers allege delays with warranty claims for repairs, or parts replacements. A few customers complain the company fails to issue reimbursements on cancelled warranties or improper repairs. The company has responded to all complaints by explaining warranty coverage, providing warranty repairs, investigating claims, or issuing refunds. A few complaints remain disputed. Customers were not satisfied with the company's responses. This company is a member of the Better Business Bureau and has agreed to Bureau membership standards, which include a commitment to ethical business practices. We do not endorse, recommend or disapprove of any company, product or service. "

    And finally, here is Honda, although they are listed twice by the CA office and one is favorable, but the other duplicates Toyota:

    "Based on our standards, we rate this company as having an unsatisfactory business record. An unsatisfactory rating is given when a pattern in the company's customer complaints causes us concern, when the company does not respond to complaints, or when it will not substantiate its advertising claims. In this case, althought the company has responded to most customer complaints brought to its attention by the Bureau, one remains unanswered and others remain unresolved because it appears that the company did not give adequate consideration to the customer's side of the dispute. A Better Business Bureau report is based on our file information and experience with an individual company over the past three years. The Bureau does not endorse, recommend, or disapprove of any company, product or service."
  • jimmuh1jimmuh1 Member Posts: 72
    When I filed my complaint by using the BBB's on-line reporting procedure, the Southland office is the ones who handled it. I did not choose where it was filed...the BBB did. (Assumption mine.)

    And when I called the SPA Hotline, they couldn't help me because I had filed a complaint with the BBB and my case was being handled by the "The Office Of The President Of Toyota Motor Sales, USA", in Torrance, CA.

    So what is the Cincinatti office then? I know other folks have used them for resolution but it's unclear to a casual obvserver what they are.

    Jamie
  • duckshooterduckshooter Member Posts: 156
    My personal buying and service experience is based on 8 different Toyota dealerships all over the country (OH, AL, TN, KS, CA, and DC). And I've had the pleasure of dealing with non-Toyota dealers as well (Dodge and Honda). To me, Toyota dealers and service departments have been, on average, somewhat better than non-Toyota. On the whole, my experiences have been very positive. I also frequented one dealer in Mainz, Germany who was very helpful despite the language differences.

    My last truck was a 90 4Runner with the 3VZE engine. After returning from Germany, the vehicle's air didn't blow cold anymore. I took it to a dealer, who replaced the evaporator core (?) and recharged the whole system for free (the vehicle was 7 years old, had 75K miles and it was covered under a recall). At 91K miles (9 years old) they replaced the head gasket, also under a recall repair -- I got a loner car for two days on that one. Also, in both cases, I didn't know about the recall (moving a lot makes this axiomatic). But when I went in for a service, the service manager asked me (proactively) if I'd had the work done.

    Again, this has not been one dealer - but a fairly consistent pattern. This is not to say there aren't some bad apples out there, I'm sure there are. But suggesting that Toyota is somehow worse than others, to me, is a gross mischaracterization.

    Jeff
  • jimmuh1jimmuh1 Member Posts: 72
    cliffy: That same office gave GM, Chrysler, and Isuzu satisfactory ratings. In fact, Isuzu has a clear record. Maybe we should all buy a Isuzu?

    It's apples and oranges. My point here is that we could go back and forth all day with BBB comments on the various automakers but it will serve no good, as it is not relevant. Most of us here are concerned with Toyotas and I believe it is relevant to the conversation.

    Jamie
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    Which is why I didn't bring the BBB up. Others here seemed to think it demonstrated a pattern, but according to the BBB, it is a common pattern with many makers who have offices in Southern California.
  • jimmuh1jimmuh1 Member Posts: 72
    Understood. I think the term 'pattern' was from the report.

    I want you to understand this, though. All across the country many owners were told the exact same story regarding their vehicles.

    Don't take offense to any of this...I realize that you work for a dealer but to be honest, the policy didn't originate with the dealerships. In fact, many dealers are quite honest. I know my experiences with GM dealers in the past have been pretty reliable. But I've only had one bad experience and that's with Toyota.

    I don't believe that in my case, the vehicle was diagnosed as it should have been...if so, I wouldn't be needing a second diagnosis. Why did I have to fight for five months to get even this?

    You have to admit there is more to this than ANY of us here know.

    Jamie
  • john339john339 Member Posts: 229
    Yes, it was the BBB report that used the word "pattern".

    The BBB report on Toyota says "Based on our standards, we rate this company as having an unsatisfactory business performance record. Complaints contain a PATTERN of allegations concerning warranty and repair issues. ..."
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    ...which is exactly what they said about Ford, Honda and Nissan as well. You're off topic.
  • john339john339 Member Posts: 229
    It was CBS who included the BBB quotes in their article on the sludge issue. I would have to agree with CBS that this info is on topic.

    When the BBB says Toyota's "Complaints contain a pattern of allegations concerning warranty and repair issues" and then you read on here how Toyota has treated their customers regarding this sludge issue, I would have to come down on the side of the BBB.
  • maltbmaltb Member Posts: 3,572
    Then CBS didn't do due diligence in their reporting (what a surprise) to see that this is not uncommon among certain industries.

    I'm not a Toyata groupie, but at least be balanced in your posts.
  • john339john339 Member Posts: 229
    I think CBS did do a balanced report, I base this on the fact that The BBB did NOT say that Honda's "Complaints contain a pattern of allegations concerning warranty and repair issues" like the BBB did say about Toyota.

    Isn't that the issue here "a pattern of allegations concerning warranty and repair issues"?
  • maltbmaltb Member Posts: 3,572
    I must have missed the word "Sludge" in the BBB report.
  • john339john339 Member Posts: 229
    Cliffy, I assume you must have been in error when you stated in post 3937 that the BBB gave Nissan an "unsatisfactory business record" rating, because the BBB did not.

    I repeat, Nissan did NOT get an unsatisfactory business record rating from the BBB like they gave Toyota.

    Also, Ford's District Office for California received a "satisfactory rating" from the BBB, here is what the BBB said "Based on our standards, we rate this company as having a satisfactory business record."
  • ramblinonramblinon Member Posts: 80
    I didn't start with macabee (nice to know you and Cliffy and macabee are all good friends). Read his entire post. After I responded to him I guess he actually went out and counted the service writer positions and corrected his FOUR to FIVE. My appointment was specifically for a check for Sludge. The appointment calendar stated something, and I am not quoting here, such as Wants Engine Checked. No regular form was created. I was informed that only cars using large amounts of oil and showing oil usage from the exhaust, i.e., you have to be able to see it, are covered by the program.
    A form that was hand written stating customer in per letter from Company. I never received a copy of this. I was told that it would be a good idea to have my oil changed right then (with 2500 miles on their oil change) and then keep an eye on it. My only paper work was a receipt of the Express Oil service. And I stated in my original post I never stated that I had received a letter as I had not and still have not.

    You should reread machabees post to me. It was very clearly a refuting of my post which was as true and correct as I could make it. That sir is the stating that I did not tell the truth. I call that being called a liar.

    machabee also followed up by stateing that by my description he knew who the very poorly mannered service writer was...but the women love him. Imagine, admitting that yes we have front line employees that treat our customers like crap.
    Again, not quoting mackabee as I don't care to reread his postings but knowing such an employee exists and condoning his actions is quite remarkable.

    Bentwoodvolvo I really don't care if you check all the Toyota vehicles or not. Why should I care. It's seems impossible to get a Toyota Dealer to even look at the crap brunt on the shelve under the oil cap.

    Also, regardless of how "you" feel, "I" don't feel good being refuted by a dealership empolyee and I guess the important thing is that "I" can choose to not ever buy another vehicle from them. I am also free to relate my experiences to my friends and it will make for good fodder at parties and such.
  • webguysterwebguyster Member Posts: 434
    BBB Reliability Report

    Toyota Financial Services
    5005 N River Blvd NE
    Cedar Rapids, IA 52411

    General Information

    Customer Experience

    Based on BBB files, this company has an unsatisfactory record with the Bureau due to unanswered complaint(s). The company has resolved most complaint(s) presented by the Bureau; however, the Bureau did not receive a response to other complaint(s).

    to assist you in exercising your own best judgment. Information contained herein is believed reliable but not guaranteed as to accuracy. Reports are subject to change at any time.

    P.S. Cliffy1, do you know if I can extend my 6(?) year 75,000 mile Extra Care without cancelling, pro-rating, and buying the longer 7 year 100,000 mile Extra Care? My dealers finance guy is too busy.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    No, I was not wrong. I posted a complete cut and paste from the BBB web site. Edmunds software will not allow links in excess of 115 characters, but if you go to www.bbb.org, click on company search, look for "Nissan Motor" and specify CA as the state and you will find the link. Further, you misquoted me because I never said they gave Nissan an unsatisfactory rating. They give no rating but you can read the statement for yourself and decide what the CA BBB office thinks of Nissan.

    Perhaps the BBB has a policy against giving actual poor ratings to BBB members. According to their site, Nissan is a member. Toyota is not.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    I believe it is possible to extend an Extra Care warranty. I have never done it myself, but have heard of it being done. If a customer came to me asking to extend one I had sold, I would have to call my regional TMIS office for instructions.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    Ummm... guys? Can't we all just get along? Honestly, I have read both your posts and can't quite figure out how each of you got offended by the other in the first place. I think perhaps both of you should go back and read the other's post, but this time, read it with a smile on your face. I think you'll find that neither one of you intended to start a war of words.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I think mentioning the name of the dealership was a low blow too.

    Getting a bit personal on a public forum, wouldn't you say?

    And...Mackabee is a friend of mine too. I've never known him to incite trouble in these forums either.
  • john339john339 Member Posts: 229
    I beg to differ,

    here is what I said in post 3936 titled
    BBB " UNSATISFACTORY BUSINESS PERFORMANCE RECORD"

    "The BBB report on Toyota says "Based on our standards, we rate this company as having an unsatisfactory business performance record. Complaints contain a PATTERN of allegations concerning warranty and repair issues. ..."

    Here is your response in the following post:

    Cliffy: "...which is exactly what they said about Ford, Honda and Nissan as well. You're off topic."

    As you now know, that is clearly not what the BBB said about those companies.

    How can you possibly say that the BBB said exactly the same thing about Nissan when Nissan did NOT get an unsatisfactory Business Performance Rating. ????

    Let the record be clear, the BBB gives Toyota an unsatisfactory business rating but NOT Nissan nor a lot of other car companies as previously posted.
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