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Comments
BBB- The Better Business Bureau are not car people. They are consumer & business people. So they might be criticizing Toyota on how they handle the consumer, that's possible, but they might still not have a clue as to the sludge problem or its causes.
What I mean is that just because the BBB has publicly rebuked Toyota, that does not mean that Toyota has a defective product, only a defective way of dealing with complaints.
Maybe I'm in the wrong business!
Cliffy mentioned that they could be quoting pulling both valve covers. That makes some sense.. especially considering the fact the service guy at the dealership took 15 minutes to come up with the $300 quote. He flipped through his book punching in everything he could come up with. I think he was doing his best but didn't have a clue.
I think I'm in the wrong business too
Maybe he meant oil pan.
All this happened in the beginning of November of 2000. I think now that Toyota would've jerked me around over this since they probaly knew about this problem. I lost faith in Toyota at that point and didn't push much for the '01 Camry LE. The wife really preferred the Altima anyways and loves her Alty more as each day passes.
All in all,a very sad situation for Toyota and its customers. What should be done is this:
1) recognize the problem
2) accept responsibility and don't put the blame on others
3) correct the problem.
End of story. It's time to move on with all this!
This is a clear violation of the Member Agreement.
Please report any attempts at such solicitation to the Host! Any attempt to solicit you will result in the deletion of the post and a warning to the poster. Thank you!
Mr. Shiftright
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Maintenance & Repair Message Board
Got an estimate for removing & replacing front valve cover from AAA rated garage,$45+ gasket, if required
When you reinstall the cover, Toyota calls for "seal packing" under a new gasket, at the corners. Torque the cover's bolts to 8 [N-m], yes, eight.
I might suggest buying a new PCV valve when you get your gasket. The PCV valve sits on the right valve cover.
1. You an employee of the Dealership joining in what has become an extension of Customer Non-Service.
2. When an attempt has been made to belittle a customer it speaks volumes.
3. What difference does it make it I bought my Solara at Checkered Flag as you inquired? However, I did and early after release of the model. I paid Sticker Price $28K+. I never received the second ignition key or Auto Entry/Alarm Fob......after three visits to the show room my wife simply gave it up.
4. Your input has given me pause to return to the Checkered Flag Dealership as I'm leary that my service may not go well. I feel an attempt may be made to identify the vehicle. I am checking today if my "complete" records can be obtained by another local dealer.
I do appreciate you spelling lesson however.
I care for no further discussion with you as it is futile.
Thanks.
I mean, the OBDII is there for a reason, why isn't this one of the first places a tech would look to help identify a problem?
My observation based on your reply is that the tech's aren't concerned so much with identifying problems as they are proving it is the owners faults.
Jamie
Actually, this is what the report says, you be the judge:
"Based on our standards, we rate this company as having an unsatisfactory business performance record. Complaints contain a pattern of allegations concerning warranty and repair issues. Some customers complained they experienced repeated problems with certain components, found zone office representatives unwilling to help with repairs costs, or were dissatisfied with extended warranty claims procedures. The company responded to some complaints by offering additional repairs, explanations for denying assistance, or by issuing partial refunds or reimbursements in some cases. Some were clos The Better Business Bureau does not endorse, recommend or disapprove of any product, service or company. "
While I imagine many of the complaints are stemming from 'engine sludge', I've talked to other co-workers and other Toyota owners and nearly all have related poor customer service when it comes to getting something repaired under warranty.
And as far as arbitration goes, check you state laws regarding Auto Repairs...just because you go to arbitration it does not mean you cannot pursue legal recourse...even if you win.
This discussion has gotten WAY out of hand IMO. I think that a lot of this discussion has gone beyond logic.
That being said, here's what I KNOW:
Toyota reported that about 3,000 engines have sludged/gelled out of over 3,000,000.
That is one in One Thousand. That's not a lot at all. Are all of those due to design faults or bad engines? I doubt it. I'm sure there are somebad apples in there. I'm sure there is some bad maintinence in there.
I KNOW that I have bought MANY Toyotas with high miles, and MANY of them were poorly maintained. I know that NOT ONE has had a sludged engine since September/October when I started checking. I also know that NONE of the bigToyota buyers that I know are aware of this being an issue.
And no I dont have time to start just tearing engines apart just to satisfy the concerns or curiosities of someone on a chat board.
I personally think that a few incredibly vocal people have turned a molehill into the Himalayas.
This has also become a serious pissing contest.
ramblinon, I think that you started with Mackabee. I've seen his posts for nigh on 5 years here and I dont think that I have once seen him step to the level that you accuse him of. What's the problem? he didnt agree with you? And who is calling who a liar here?
This is what I saw Mack say:
. I do work at a dealership in Virginia Beach where a certain poster described as having 5 or 6 assistant service writers. We have 4 service writers. He mentioned the dealership being swamped with calls of "concerned customers" when he brought his vehicle in for service, yet I checked the logs and all are for routine maintenace, state inspections and the like.
I don't see any personal attacks in there. And I also don't see him calling you a liar. Or, do you feel that unless someone blindly agrees with your opinions that they are calling you a liar?
I think we all need to relax a bit in here.
Bill
There are three links to "Toyota Motor Sales". One is in the LA region and that is the one that people here have quoted. A second one just shows a bunch of error messages. The third is from the Cincinnati region and the story there is completely different. Below is the quote:
"Based on BBB files, this company has a satisfactory record with the Bureau.
To have a Satisfactory Record with the Bureau, a company must be in business for at least 12 months, properly and promptly address matters referred to it by the Bureau, and be free from an unusual volume or pattern of complaints and law enforcement action involving its marketplace conduct. In addition, the Bureau must have a clear understanding of the company's business and no concerns about its industry."
Let's make sure we have the full story before pursing the BBB angle here.
So it's not possible to have a dianostic code and NOT a MIL indicator?
Jamie
The information listed there is for the local area, yes, but if you file a complaint against Toyota corporate that is the office it is sent to.
As I said, you be the judge.
Jamie
"Based on BBB complaint files, this company has an unsatisfactory record with the Bureau due to one or more unanswered and/or two or more otherwise unresolved complaints.
The following data concerns complaints processed by the BBB since the firm's file was opened or over the last 36 months, whichever is less. Ford Motor Co has had 7 complaints. 1 was closed as Resolved. 2 were closed as Assumed Resolved. 1 was closed as Reasonably Explained to the Bureau's Satisfaction.3 were closed as No Response. "
Just for the heck of it, here is what the same office has to say about Nissan:
"Complainants generally allege vehicles purchased are manufacturer defective. Some customers complain of reoccuring mechanical or non-mechanical problems. Other customers allege delays with warranty claims for repairs, or parts replacements. A few customers complain the company fails to issue reimbursements on cancelled warranties or improper repairs. The company has responded to all complaints by explaining warranty coverage, providing warranty repairs, investigating claims, or issuing refunds. A few complaints remain disputed. Customers were not satisfied with the company's responses. This company is a member of the Better Business Bureau and has agreed to Bureau membership standards, which include a commitment to ethical business practices. We do not endorse, recommend or disapprove of any company, product or service. "
And finally, here is Honda, although they are listed twice by the CA office and one is favorable, but the other duplicates Toyota:
"Based on our standards, we rate this company as having an unsatisfactory business record. An unsatisfactory rating is given when a pattern in the company's customer complaints causes us concern, when the company does not respond to complaints, or when it will not substantiate its advertising claims. In this case, althought the company has responded to most customer complaints brought to its attention by the Bureau, one remains unanswered and others remain unresolved because it appears that the company did not give adequate consideration to the customer's side of the dispute. A Better Business Bureau report is based on our file information and experience with an individual company over the past three years. The Bureau does not endorse, recommend, or disapprove of any company, product or service."
And when I called the SPA Hotline, they couldn't help me because I had filed a complaint with the BBB and my case was being handled by the "The Office Of The President Of Toyota Motor Sales, USA", in Torrance, CA.
So what is the Cincinatti office then? I know other folks have used them for resolution but it's unclear to a casual obvserver what they are.
Jamie
My last truck was a 90 4Runner with the 3VZE engine. After returning from Germany, the vehicle's air didn't blow cold anymore. I took it to a dealer, who replaced the evaporator core (?) and recharged the whole system for free (the vehicle was 7 years old, had 75K miles and it was covered under a recall). At 91K miles (9 years old) they replaced the head gasket, also under a recall repair -- I got a loner car for two days on that one. Also, in both cases, I didn't know about the recall (moving a lot makes this axiomatic). But when I went in for a service, the service manager asked me (proactively) if I'd had the work done.
Again, this has not been one dealer - but a fairly consistent pattern. This is not to say there aren't some bad apples out there, I'm sure there are. But suggesting that Toyota is somehow worse than others, to me, is a gross mischaracterization.
Jeff
It's apples and oranges. My point here is that we could go back and forth all day with BBB comments on the various automakers but it will serve no good, as it is not relevant. Most of us here are concerned with Toyotas and I believe it is relevant to the conversation.
Jamie
I want you to understand this, though. All across the country many owners were told the exact same story regarding their vehicles.
Don't take offense to any of this...I realize that you work for a dealer but to be honest, the policy didn't originate with the dealerships. In fact, many dealers are quite honest. I know my experiences with GM dealers in the past have been pretty reliable. But I've only had one bad experience and that's with Toyota.
I don't believe that in my case, the vehicle was diagnosed as it should have been...if so, I wouldn't be needing a second diagnosis. Why did I have to fight for five months to get even this?
You have to admit there is more to this than ANY of us here know.
Jamie
The BBB report on Toyota says "Based on our standards, we rate this company as having an unsatisfactory business performance record. Complaints contain a PATTERN of allegations concerning warranty and repair issues. ..."
When the BBB says Toyota's "Complaints contain a pattern of allegations concerning warranty and repair issues" and then you read on here how Toyota has treated their customers regarding this sludge issue, I would have to come down on the side of the BBB.
I'm not a Toyata groupie, but at least be balanced in your posts.
Isn't that the issue here "a pattern of allegations concerning warranty and repair issues"?
I repeat, Nissan did NOT get an unsatisfactory business record rating from the BBB like they gave Toyota.
Also, Ford's District Office for California received a "satisfactory rating" from the BBB, here is what the BBB said "Based on our standards, we rate this company as having a satisfactory business record."
A form that was hand written stating customer in per letter from Company. I never received a copy of this. I was told that it would be a good idea to have my oil changed right then (with 2500 miles on their oil change) and then keep an eye on it. My only paper work was a receipt of the Express Oil service. And I stated in my original post I never stated that I had received a letter as I had not and still have not.
You should reread machabees post to me. It was very clearly a refuting of my post which was as true and correct as I could make it. That sir is the stating that I did not tell the truth. I call that being called a liar.
machabee also followed up by stateing that by my description he knew who the very poorly mannered service writer was...but the women love him. Imagine, admitting that yes we have front line employees that treat our customers like crap.
Again, not quoting mackabee as I don't care to reread his postings but knowing such an employee exists and condoning his actions is quite remarkable.
Bentwoodvolvo I really don't care if you check all the Toyota vehicles or not. Why should I care. It's seems impossible to get a Toyota Dealer to even look at the crap brunt on the shelve under the oil cap.
Also, regardless of how "you" feel, "I" don't feel good being refuted by a dealership empolyee and I guess the important thing is that "I" can choose to not ever buy another vehicle from them. I am also free to relate my experiences to my friends and it will make for good fodder at parties and such.
Toyota Financial Services
5005 N River Blvd NE
Cedar Rapids, IA 52411
General Information
Customer Experience
Based on BBB files, this company has an unsatisfactory record with the Bureau due to unanswered complaint(s). The company has resolved most complaint(s) presented by the Bureau; however, the Bureau did not receive a response to other complaint(s).
to assist you in exercising your own best judgment. Information contained herein is believed reliable but not guaranteed as to accuracy. Reports are subject to change at any time.
P.S. Cliffy1, do you know if I can extend my 6(?) year 75,000 mile Extra Care without cancelling, pro-rating, and buying the longer 7 year 100,000 mile Extra Care? My dealers finance guy is too busy.
Perhaps the BBB has a policy against giving actual poor ratings to BBB members. According to their site, Nissan is a member. Toyota is not.
Getting a bit personal on a public forum, wouldn't you say?
And...Mackabee is a friend of mine too. I've never known him to incite trouble in these forums either.
here is what I said in post 3936 titled
BBB " UNSATISFACTORY BUSINESS PERFORMANCE RECORD"
"The BBB report on Toyota says "Based on our standards, we rate this company as having an unsatisfactory business performance record. Complaints contain a PATTERN of allegations concerning warranty and repair issues. ..."
Here is your response in the following post:
Cliffy: "...which is exactly what they said about Ford, Honda and Nissan as well. You're off topic."
As you now know, that is clearly not what the BBB said about those companies.
How can you possibly say that the BBB said exactly the same thing about Nissan when Nissan did NOT get an unsatisfactory Business Performance Rating. ????
Let the record be clear, the BBB gives Toyota an unsatisfactory business rating but NOT Nissan nor a lot of other car companies as previously posted.