Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

cliffy1 · March 2002

So as to not muddy this topic further, why don't you send me an e-mail and we can discuss this off-line. I actually can tell you something in private about this that I can't post publicly. My e-mail address is in my profile.

john339 · March 2002

With all due respect, I prefer to get my information from 'independent' sources such as the BBB, Automotive News, and owners who are affected by the problem.

Also, I'm concerned about several postings that I've read that indicate that the Toyota reps and mechanics know a lot more than they are allowed to say. If the information can't be shared publicly, then it probably isn't worth knowing.

im_brentwood · March 2002

I dont think he called you a liar. I think you are taking this far too literally.

Should Mack then, by your logic, be equally as upset with you for calling him a liar? I don't think so.

Should any objective person take one person's opinions and/or observations as gospel? I sure as heck do not.

So, we're upset about some gunk under an oil filler cap? Well, I think I have noticed that, which is carbon build-up, on just about every medium to high-mile engine I have ever seen.

Bill

obyone · March 2002

Good luck with this...looks like you need it. IMHO, time is better served elsewhere....

ramblinon · March 2002

you need to reread my postings prior to the mackabee post. My comments were all most favorable concerning the Checkered Flag Dealership. Did you miss that. Are you also in the forest and can't see the trees?

I also stated that I've bought vehicles since the 70's from Checkered Flag when I purchased a TR6. There has been many many many cars, suvs and a truck since then from their many dealerships. There have also been new vehicles from other dealerships e.g. two corvettes; two Acura Legend LS Coupes; a Cadilac; a Jeep Cherokee; a Honda Civic; a Chevy C20.

Current vehicles purchased from Checkered Flag are the 99 Solara SLE; 01 Isuzu Trooper Limited and had planned to test drive a Honda S2000. By most business yardsticks a fair customer. There are certainly other Honda Dealerships in the area to kick a tire.

I'm not an unknowing consumer. I attempt to make educated purchases.....even with the Consumer Reports trashing of the Trooper, I could not find one instance of one rolling over. What I found was a very tight group of Trooper owners who take pride in the soundness of the SUV. '02 is the last model of the Trooper and I am encouraging one of my sons to buy one now. The darn things just don't break.....JD Powers thinks the same way.

Yes indeed. Words do mean something.

I don't plan on discussing mackabee any further.
I don't think I have Sludge but I don't know.
I probably will buy a S2000 because I simply want one and have enjoyed what I've read about them.
I will keep the Solara for awhile the wife loves it.
I will shop elsewhere. Customers can do that. Check with K-Mart.

sandman46 · March 2002

that screwed a customer over is a bad thing and if it has been done, we as consumers have a duty to warn others out there. There are plenty of dealers in the market place to shop from and one that treats one customer or many customers badly, is one to many in my opinion. I have let many of my customers know about a local dealership that handled our wrecked Camry and fixed it for us. Took 51 days with the car being refused back by us 2 times before they made it right.
You best believed I let as many of my older customers know about this as I could and I know I kept a few away. Why would I let my customers, or anyone I knew, go to dealership that was truly awful? Makes no sense to me.

isellhondas · March 2002

To me, using a public forum to badmouth a dealership or other business is in bad taste.

Kind of like writing something about someone on a bathroom wall.

Maybe the complaint is totally with merit and maybe not. The business in question has no way to defend itself or tell the other side of the story.

In a face to face conversation it's a different story. The person hearing the complaint can ask questions and make a determination for themselves as to who was right. Much easier than to read words posted here.

Heck, if I have a bad experience with a business or restaurant I'll give my opinion if asked.

I just won't do it here.

ramblinon...I may have misread your comments. Sorry if I missed anything.

isellhondas · March 2002

As we read postings that warn us to stay away from ABC Motors, we have no way to know if they were written by a competitor or disgruntled ex-employee. I'm sure this happens too.

sandman46 · March 2002

this is the perfect forum to do it. It's like the shows with the hidden cameras, you never know who you're dealing with so every business should treat any customer the way they would treat their mother or grandmother. Businesses are there to make money and by giving the best service they can, they will achieve their goal.
Toyota should think about this. Think of all the goodwill they lost out on by not taking care of this problem a lot earlier. After hearing about say 10 cases of this "sludge", they should've just taken care of it. Imagine all the goodwill they could've gotten from this. It would've been priceless in the long run!
Just some food for thought by a loyal Toyota customer who was screwed with this "sludge" problem but wanted the problem gone asap!

pjksr · March 2002

No new info on what the oil gel situation...

And, with millions of letters in the mail/delivered, no new posts of sludge.

Statistically, I'm starting to feel better.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2002

Actually we don't encourage bad-mouthing dealers here, by name, because there is no way to verify the truth of any statements.

After all, we don't hear both sides of the story, do we?

yaman · March 2002

We have a 2000 Sienna bought in April of that year.Received the Gel Letter yesterday.We are taking the car in for its 30,000 maintenance next friday.If the dealer tells me we have "gel"-I'll post it here

sgrd0q · March 2002

Well, there are good dealers and there are bad ones. I was treated badly by a bad dealer once. (No - I won't mention their name!)

But generally, I see no problem in naming a dealership. Obviously no one is bound to believe any statement on any forum. It's up to us to hear various opinions from various sources before we make up our minds.

Anyway, I think people should be allowed to express their opinions, even if they come with concrete examples.

armtdm · March 2002

I posted a bad experiece with a dealer, actually did not name the dealership, but informed them that I had posted my complaint on one of the Edmunds boards Well, they countered with their side of the story. So, all is fair. I never went back.

joatmon · March 2002

But, it's OK to:

Badmouth Jiffy Lube, the Texaco station in Atlanta, and by inference every quick change lube place,

badmouth customers who don't go to their dealers for all their service,

badmouth customers who didn't actually mark and inspect their oil filter in order to prove an oil change was performed, and

challenge the ability of a customer to count the number of official service writers.

It seems like most who bring up anything but the Toyota party line are vilified.

Toyota, many of your loyal customers want you to tell the truth. Why do certain Toyotas have a propensity to develop oil gel? You either have the facts or have the resources to find out.

mrrogers · March 2002

for an automotive vendor to design a clear plastic valve cover for the two Lexus/Toyota engines with the oil gel issue? If that is not a good idea, how about an inspection door in the valve cover with four of those little 1/4 turn dzus fasteners that the race car teams use? Does anyone know if there is such a thing as a borescope for auto engines that could inspect for gel through the oil filler hole?

8u6hfd · March 2002

They have severely ripped you off in a service, or not performing the service you paid for (been there, done that).

Conversely, is it okay to praise a particular dealership on a public forum for its merits?

You look at the consumer standpoint, if we had a particularly bad experience at a dealership for whatever reason, we could warn others before they become disgruntled also.

To the dealerships, or other repair facilities, if the amount of customers (note, not referred to be as clients) coming in for service declines over a given period of time, they may very well shape up and improve their service. Some of the technicians may be on the board of the offending dealership(s). This could provide feedback, and help both parties out.

sbcooke · March 2002

Why is it that you can only find out about these problems in a forum like this? I shopped for a sienna, and as it turns out we decided against it. Later on I learned about the sludge issue in edmunds town hall. If this is such a widespread issue, why doesn't it get listed in car reviews...Great car, but has oil sludge issues?...Even the recall/technical service bulletin sites don't report these problems? Consumers who don't tap into this web based information could and do walk blindly into a problem like this.

As far as naming dealers...I think it is fine. If you can name a good dealer, you should definitely be able to label a bad one. After all this is a forum, maybe all of the sludge issues should be kept quiet...you are certainly badmouthing a product line and probably keeping people from buying it? Service is a product, bad service, bad dealer, well let them have it. If someone is needlessly bad mouthing a dealer, it will come off as such, and no one will pay attention to it.

wain · March 2002

Most auto reviewers especially anything you see in a newspaper rave about every car they drive.

yrmac · March 2002

Folks,
I don't really see any reason why people get hyper on something that is totally inconclusive (i.e sludge on cars). This is just like trying to argue who came first, chicken or egg. The fact is there are 3000 or so toyota engines that are giving fits to toyota customers. Is 3000 not a significant number? Even if this 3000 problems came from gazzilion number of cars, the matter of fact is this number got publicity and since the media got hold of this story...IT IS SIGNIFICANT! This is just like that TYLENOL scare a few years ago. There were only a few bad lots in those TYLENOL products but the company issued a complete recall of the product and thus, prevented a damage to its reputation. This is called damage control and I think Toyota is making a big mistake by denying that the sludge issue is not a big problem. Toyota should consider this not as a technical issue anymore (i.e. oil changes definitions and et al.) but a customer relation issue. Along the way, they will probably be better for it...just look at the Tylenol product, they are still the number one pain killer.

maltb · March 2002

A chicken and an egg are lying in bed.
The chicken is leaning against the headboard smoking a cigarette with a satisfied smile on its face.
The egg, looking a bit ticked off, grabs the sheet, rolls over and says, "Well, I guess we finally answered THAT question!"

Sorry...I had to post it.

webguyster · March 2002

That the revenues for the car magazines, and the monies generated by media commercials. You will not likely hear any bad mouthing of any product, unless there are enough complaints, injuries, or deaths. Anyone think Toyota would sponser a Dateline tv show that was slamming its cars, or advertise in Road and Track, if they ran a bad report about it's products and/or services? NO! Until it becomes news, and not entertainment, you won't hear about it in most media.

Tylenol scare is a bit different. As someone who is from Chicagoland, and who remembers the Tylenol scare, it was not a bad batch of Tylenol, but a sick, sadistic person, who put poison in various bottles of Tylenol throughout the area. There's little chance someone is putting sludge in these cars. The recall not only saved the brand reputation, but caused every company or consumable products/drugs, to start using protective measures to make products tamper evident. They did not have a bad product, until someone made some changes to it.

yrmac · March 2002

Hahaha...I am still rofl! neways, the fact is Toyota Co. has a handful and they are acting like an arrogant blind horse.
Webguyster, I was only giving an example of a company that acted to save its face and prevent any damage to its reputation. Even if a maniac did damage to their products, as you said, they made enough modification to prevent the situation from occuring again. Toyota should do the same.I know that the circumstances are different but the bottom line is both these companies sell products to the masses.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2002

Not permitting the slander of dealers is for your own good on these boards. Should someone make some outrageous statement in public, they could be liable for it.

You have to be VERY careful what you say about specific people, or businesses. These are not movie stars. They have a right to their reputation just like you do.

How would YOU like to see this about yourself on these boards?

======> "So this foul-mouthed jerk comes into my dealership ranting about some defect. We try to please him but he's running off at the mouth and making threats. I think this Mr. John Smith of 124 Springdale Lane, Dayton, Ohio, tel 223-454-7898 is a dangerous person. I had to have my children leave my office he was so profane. If he comes back to the dealership, I'm going to call the police. I think his neighbors should keep an eye on him, there's something not right about him".

Sometimes (not here, not you guys) you see this very thing said about dealers or businesses online. How does the shoe fit when you see it this way?

windowphobe6 · March 2002

No Springdale Lane, but there is a Springdale Drive (3500 block is apparently the extent of it).

I mention this in case John Smith wants to make a Federal case of it.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2002

Hey, pretty good, I just guessed that!

Anyway, my point is that I encourage everyone to be judicious in their statements. You can give plenty of good info without bordering on libel.

bob57 · March 2002

I've seen posts stating the #6 cylinder runs hot, the PVC system is mis-designed, the engine is cramped in the engine compartment, head gaskets leaking, oil passages too small and probably a few more I haven't seen yet.
I've seen bashing of Toyota because they wouldn't fix the engines. After "the letter" I've seen bashing because they would fix the engines. Included in that was the further complaints that you now have to change the oil more often than originally stated in the manual. Personally, oil changing intervals was not a factor in my purchase.
Is this an issue with Toyota? I'm sure it is. I'm also sure they have lost some sales over this subject. Hence, the letter, at least trying to make it right - doing something.
But the fact remains, we're still talking about a less than 1% hit of their subject fleet. No one to my knowledge has died or been injured as compared to the Ford Explorer/Firestone situation. So this issue with Toyota is not the biggy issue of time for them.
I'm not defending anyone but this chat seems to be an outlet for frustration on a bad hair day sometimes. How did the BBB subject get involved? It seems we are just looking for anything at this point and not really accomplishing much.
All these postings are entertaining, but, what exactly do we want from Toyota at this point?

joatmon · March 2002

Toyota seems to charge a "premium" for their brands versus most of their competition. If their reputation of being "bullit proof" is tarninshed, they look vulnerable to me. Doing oil change intervals at half the factory recommended limit and the fear (justified or not) of having an engine blow does not fit with their reputation.

A Toyota also enjoys great resale value. Certainly part of this is due to the fact that you can buy one and expect it to go to 200,000 miles given reasonable care. Now that reputation is going to be challenged. Are you going to pay a premium for a 1997 Camry with 80,000 for your son or daughter to take to college? Maybe yesterday, but maybe not today. It used to be that a missed oil change wouldn't hurt them. Now, if the maintenance money goes to pizza and beer, more is at stake.

If the public knew more about the root cause of these engine failures, all would rest easier.

wain · March 2002

Toy is still silent on the root cause.

armtdm · March 2002

jimmuh1 · March 2002

armtdm: Toyota doesn't know.

I just got a call today that Toyota is sending down a 'diagnostic team' to look at my engine and that they won't be able to even BEGIN until the 14th. Right now, the vehicle is in the shop being torn down. I don't mind that they want to look at the vehicle but I have a few problems with the way this has been handled.

They are only telling us part of this. If Toyota is so convinced that the problem is 'neglect' then why are they sending down a team from corporate to look at my vehicle?

Why wasn't I told this up front? Why did I AGAIN have to find this out from my dealership? Don't tell me to have the dealer fix my car if you are going to hold my vehicle for at least two weeks without my knowledge.

I am really tired getting jerked around like this?

Jamie

cliffy1 · March 2002

Don't get too fired up yet. Have you been offered a loaner car during this time? If so I'd take it and be glad that Toyota is doing its part to ensure that their previous diagnosis is correct. It seems rational to me that Toyota would want to look closely at all these cars, no matter what they find. They will either find that they should be vindicated or that there is more happening than they were aware of.

john339 · March 2002

This is what Automotive News had to say about the root cause.

"Although it's not clear why the two Toyota engines are so susceptible to sludge buildup, some independent experts say the concentration of complaints within two engines and a narrow time band points to either a design flaw or a quality defect."

Larry Perry, an A.S.E.-Certified Master Technician, repair-shop owner and host of a radio talk show in Orlando said in the article "We believe Toyota reduced the size of cooling passages to the cylinder heads in those engines in order to increase combustion temperatures for more of a complete burn to reduce exhaust emissions,"

Perry has measured "cylinder-head temperatures as high as 260 degrees in those engines - 30 degrees higher than in earlier models".

Perry - "Excessive heat makes oil more susceptible to sludge."

Given that Toyota has not offered an alternative explanation on why there is a concentration of problems for only 2 engines and a narrow timeband, I think Perry's independent observations is the best theory out there.

http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=38302

fxashun · March 2002

Kinda answers the question of why that oil BURNS in the shelf under the oil cap huh?

Also anyone else notice those in here that defend Toyota can ramble on incessantly about anything OTHER than the actual sludge issue.

They can bash jiffy lube, the BBB, others here, and anything else they pick out of a post but ironically when the subject comes back to why there is sludge in the first place they don't have much to say.

suvshopper4 · March 2002

The bashing cuts both ways.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2002

No, I'm not buying that just yet, because then EVERY engine would do it. Besides, Perry isn't an engineer, what does he know about turning blocks of steel into engines? We all know about the credentials of "talk show hosts" in America already. However, it's a good stab at it, I'll give him credit for that.

The fact that the sludge levels vary from a lot to absolutely none, and seemingly randomly, leads me to think that there is no one design or product defect, but rather a "design decision" that couples with "a set of conditions" to produce sludge in increments of .01%.

What are these "conditions". Well, I think nobody knows, and Side A and Side B are fingerpointing right now. "Poor maintenance!" says Toyota. "No, NO! It's the wrong maintenance schedule. You deceived us! say consumer.

"No, no!" says Toyota, "you should have read the part about SEVERE service!"

And on and on.

The answer won't be found until Toyota can reproduce the conditions reliably and make an engine sludge "at will", based on the conditions imposed.

It may be that high heat will be one of those conditions, so that part was contributed by Toyota then.

im_brentwood · March 2002

I dont think I saw a slamming of a dealer in here, what I saw was someone make statements about a dealership, someone who worked for the dealership responded, and the original poster threw a fit.

I actually monitor the BMW threads. If I saw someone rip on the store that I own, I'd post and offer my side of the story. If I felt the post was untrue or unfair, I'd say so. Now, if that was enough for the original poster to throw a fit, well, thats the way the ball bounces I suppose.

Bill

cliffy1 · March 2002

Yours is the most reasonable post I have seen to date. Well done.

fxashun · March 2002

It was the fact that certain posts of a post can be singled out and debated when the sludge is the topic. Something like I could say sludge sludge sludge changed my oil at "Oil so Quick" sludge sludge. And instead of talking about sludge for the next post it's "Oil so Quick" sucks!!" they didn't change your oil. Even if I mention that all my other cars were serviced there with no problem. That's what I meant.

As far as the heat....
When I questioned that two years ago from the service technician where I worked they said it was heat in the cylinder head area also. Let me find that link I'll post it. Yotarepair said the same thing. It's not coming from just one source Shiftright. But your questioning the talk radio hosts credentials just because he's a talk radio host verifies my last post. I mean the article mentioned a specific test he had run to verify his statement on the heat.

And this condition does not exist on my cars and one of them has 142K and my Lexus LS400 with the same oil filler as a Camry has no burned oil in its cap or filler at 120K.

cliffy1 · March 2002

I was not the one who brought up the BBB. I simply responded to a series of posts by John339 and others.

Now, I did bring up Jiffy Lube and that requires an explanation. I now realize that I should have used a more generic term for quick lube places. My mother had a bad experience with them in the past and I used their trade name when describing what can happen at less than trustworthy service centers. That is germane to the sludge discussion.

maltb · March 2002

it's not like dealers use master technicians to change oil either.

IMO, oil changes vary little between Nooner Lube and a dealer.

cliffy1 · March 2002

Check your e-mail

cliffy1 · March 2002

You may be correct, but that is not the point. The point has always been warranty coverage. If the dealership changed the oil according to schedule, there would be no question about warranty coverage. If the dealership screwed up and charged you for a change that they didn't do, they would have nobody but themselves to blame and would be forced to cover the car under warranty. To my knowledge, there are no cases of a dealer maintained car being denied a warranty claim for a sludged engine.

fxashun · March 2002

They forgot to tighten my spark plugs after a tuneup. Once they forgot to replace my oil cap. Another one installed shocks wrong on my car. Heck my own dealership where I used to work has done a few boneheaded things to me and other customers.
The only constant is that all dealerships have humans working for them and we all make mistakes.

How can you say there are no cases of a dealership blah blah.... Up until Toyota's letter you didn't know anything about ANY sludge hardly now are we to assume you are familiar with EVERY case? Just an observation.... Remember don't take this personal... I don't.

duckshooter · March 2002

But it sure leads you to suspect the motivation of some posters here. When a fellow won't give his email address or we can't verify what he does for a living - like work for GM marketing, perhaps? It sure would go a long way for some companies to tear down Toyota's bullet-proof reliability reputation. Curiouser and curiouser as you read some of these posts deliberately zeroing in on THAT!

Of course it's possible that they could just be very disgruntled consumers who want to exact a little revenge.

im_brentwood · March 2002

EXCELLENT point

Bill Weismann
7851 Sugar View Ct
Orlando, FL
32819

heheheh

john339 · March 2002

Some people have stated that since "only" 3000 to 3200 problems have occured so far, and since not every car has had the problem, it must not really be a problem. Since "only" 0.1% of the cars have problems so far, Toyota claims that statistics supports their case that there isn't really a problem.

Now apply that same logic to the Firestone Wilderness tire. Searching through the NHTSA data on the Firestone tire problem I found some interesting data.

The rate of tire tread separations on the problematic 15" Wilderness AT tires was "22 incidents per million tires" during the most problematic year for the Wilderness tire, 1996. In 1999, the failure rate was down to 1 per million, but for comparisons I'll use the worst year data, 1996.

So, if you use Firestone's WORST year for Wilderness tire problems, and apply that failure rate to the population of Toyotas susceptable to sludge, you get the following:

(Wilderness failure rate) 0.000022 x 3.3 million Toyotas = 72.6 vehicles with sludge.

But Toyota itself has acknowledged that there are a lot more than 72.6 Toyotas that have had sludge problems. The number of Toyota problems is actually more than 40 times more than the worst year of Wilderness production.

So my point is, this set of Toyota engines are having problems at a rate significantly higher (40 times higher) than even the worst year of Wilderness tires.

My point is not to argue the ramifications of a engine failure vs. a tire failure, or to say what rate of failure is acceptable. Instead my point is to compare the sludge rates to a product we're all familiar with.

cliffy1 · March 2002

Who are you?

jimmuh1 · March 2002

After five months, I'm just now really getting fired up over this. I haven't been offered a loaner car, even though the dealer was under the impression I would be.

It seems rational to me that they would want to look at these vehicles as well, however, if they are going to be rational about it then they should also be honest about it. I was never told up front that a corporate team was coming down to look at it. I also wasn't told about the 'incidentals' I went on about last week either.

The more I think about it, the more questions I keep coming up with. Like:

- If the cause is owner neglect, why worry about it? (I think everyone here on both sides agree that they truly don't know.) Why is a team coming down from corporate? This is what is quoted from their press release on Toyota.com:

"This is a maintenance issue-We simply have not found one case in which a properly maintained Toyota or Lexus has experienced sludge build-up and the related mechanical problems associated with this condition. The vast majority of our customers follow our recommended maintenance schedules and avoid the risk."

- Why should I be glad that Toyota is doing their part now that I'm going into my six month without my car? I mean, they HAVE had six months to at least acknowledge me, I even went through the BBB. But they did nothing.

- So is the original diagnosis in doubt?

- Why did they tell me to call the dealer and their towing company to have the car fixed if it is going to sit for at the very least two weeks.

Jamie

fxashun · March 2002

who a poster is if they are using the facts that are at hand. No one has said that Toyota engine blow up. Or that all Toyota engines are sludging. Mostly everyone is most interested in why they are not diagnosing this problem and assuming every case of sludge is due to "improper maintenance". Then they come out with a letter that says in essence "We have seen a history of improper maintenance with only these two engines so we are going to fix them as a favor". Come on man what's the sense in that? Only these two engines? Gimme a break.
My e-mail is in my profile. But what do you want to e-mail or otherwise contact anyone for?

Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles