Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

john339 · March 2002

Robin, it is great to have you participate. I can only imagine what you, JJ, mcDan, clnelson, and the other 3100+ people have had to endure, both financially and emotionally. From all the accounts I have read, I would say Toyota has treated people with this problem very poorly.

I brought your name up because I saw it in the Automotive News article and people here were saying engine failures were not a big problem. Data from NHTSA and people's accounts like yours suggests otherwise.

catgem · March 2002

catgem · March 2002

I would really like to know just WHO respects NCDS??? I will bet it is NOT the consumer!!! My arbitration hearing was the biggest farce I have ever been a part of!!! Yes , NCDS sent me many letters leading up to my "hearing", but the arbitrator, Gregg Jensen, came in WITH the Toyota DSM.... and during my hearing the arbitrator told me that sludge was evidence of poor maintenence,and was NEVER caused by anything else. Toyota had NO evidence of my "lack of Maintenence", only one photocopied photo of my sludged engine." NOTHING about my oil filter!!! I had my receipts, including Mastercard copies, and I argued that the real fault was Toyota's oil change intervals being too long.... The whole thing was a dog and pony show, and a TOTAL waste of my time. Oh, and I had to drive to a dealership 30 minutes away, because Mr. Jensen did not want to travel to the one near me!!! I bet that car dealers just love NCDS!!

hlron · March 2002

megawattblues, I agree with your post #4533 100%...good posting.

Like you, no matter what the make of vehicle I own, it gets a 3,000 mile or so service....in my case, 3,000 - 4,000 mile range... I do not care what the "competitive marketing" service mileage or months is listed in owners manuals of any make of vehicle.

Also, for those saying Toyota's first loyalty or obligation or whatever is to stockholders: helloooo, maybe so....however there is a flaw with such simple statements. First, let us say that is true...stockholder only, rest of the world be damned!!!...well, if Toyota or any other company did not pay attention to customer service or other issues on the retail side, and as a result business slipped, hypothetically speaking, of course, who would suffer in the end? Yes, stockholders. So, guess what...it is corporate self interest to deal with issues, let alone any goodwill. Plus, we are speaking of....and please, everybody, I mean no cultural meaning negative or positive with this...a corporation in Japan, meaning that they have in the past looked at the LONG TERM financial benefit/loss more so than many of we Amercians and our corporations, where we seem to be obsessed with quarter to quarter or year long earnings.

Bottom line is that I am sure Toyota can easily put two and two together that in order to have a good corporate financial bottom line in the next quarter or two as well as long term, there also must be good customer satisfication.

tbunder · March 2002

you gotta love that toyota "quality" and "reliability". these products are just plain CHEAP!!!
toyota needs to step up to the plate, admit fault, and take care of their customers. why do people buy their products? they just treat you like crap and downplay every problem, calling it maintenance instead of service. whatever. i call them all cheap, unsafe, imports.

hlron · March 2002

tbunder, you call them all cheap, unsafe imports? Ummm...not what I have been experiencing and reading, in various places and sources...not to mention as an owner. As an example, in fact, if you are not a subscriber of "Consumer Reports", cruise on down to a news stand, and buy a copy of their April 2002 edition, the "Annual Auto Issue". Check it out...especially page 6 ("Top Picks for 2002" "The Best New Cars and Trucks"); ten vehicles are listed there...umm, wow, four of those ten are from the same corporation...oh, and wow, that corporation's name begins with a "T". Ummm.....

duckshooter · March 2002

"why should the sludge victims enlist your support? "

Because I own an affected vehicle too?

Why alienate people who could broaden your argument? The 3100 or so complainants will not win this on their own - 1/10th of 1 percent of anything just isn't significant on its own. It's the other 99.9% who share concern that represents the strength of your argument. Enlist their support. Toyota can afford to ignore a handful, it's their larger reputation they need to protect.

Jeff

duckshooter · March 2002

I climbed into this forum about a month ago and re-read every single old post available. Guess there are previous threads that were deleated/shut down. Plus you tend only to remember arguments presented in the last thousand or so posts.

I don't recall seeing anything recently that suggests anybody believes there is no problem. What I do see is bickering over how to resolve the problem and what the root cause is. I perceive a number sludge victims with prickly skin for having been mistreated by Toyota at first, who then seem to want to take it out on anybody else on this board who doesn't agree with them lock, stock and barrel.

But the question stands - what will it take to make you (the collective you) satisfied?

Jeff

armtdm · March 2002

Find the cause of the problem

If cause cannot be found and corrected revise the manual to reflect actual life!

Simple to me.

jj35 · March 2002

armtdm - I agree with you 100%. I said it earlier and it has been reiterated by several of us with sludge... I won't have any confidence in my Toyota or additional special policies on engine sludge until I know what is causing the problem.

Duckshooter - I think that you believe that there is something wrong with the Toyota engines, but I am not sure that it is a consensus. Maybe I have just been here too long and remember the posts before the Feb. 8 SPA too clearly. Haven't heard any apologies or geez, you people with sludge were right after all. It has been very recently that even the host has stated that the only cause of engine sludge is owner neglect, so I feel that there are some out there who still do not believe that engine sludge is really a problem except to the few (3,000 or so) who are accused of never changing their oil.

opera_house_wk · March 2002

I would sure like to hear the real details of the engine seize. I would like to know if the crank bearings get wiped out or if it is valve interference from a valve sticking down? Sure would like to open up one of those oil filters. I imagine these details are closely guarded.

John339 - Relax, no sludge, SPA's, now Clifty has all but thrown in the towel with his "more sensitive to maintenance" Maybe they will come up with a new company slogan like that of BMW a few years ago. "Toyota, for those who are serious about engine maintenance."

johnmcdan · March 2002

hlron writes:

Also, for those saying Toyota's first loyalty or obligation or whatever is to stockholders: helloooo, maybe so.... [SNIP]...
if Toyota or any other company did not pay attention to customer service or other issues on the retail side, and as a result business slipped, hypothetically speaking, of course, who would suffer in the end? Yes, stockholders.

[snip]

Bottom line is that I am sure Toyota can easily put two and two together that in order to have a good corporate financial bottom line in the next quarter or two as well as long term, there also must be good customer satisfication.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

My comment wasn't a product of naivete, just the feeling that what you've expounded upon is self evident --AND ironic. Alas, like people, corporations often do stupid things. It happens every day. Risk assessments have surely been made over the last three years and decisions made. I wouldn't want to be the person who started the stonewalling at HQ. Undoubtably, at this juncture, Toyota knows a lot about this origins of this problem. If they don't, boy oh boy, have they wasted some valuable time. At least one anecdotal report notes that the repair of a sludged engine under the SPA would take two months because of the necessary inspection of the engine by representatives of Toyota HQ.

j

john339 · March 2002

I think since the Toyota Dealer Council was raising concerns to Toyota about oil sludging three years ago one would expect Toyota to have a lot of data on the problem by now.

Certainly they had enough data to isolate the problem to a certain group of models and model years.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2002

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why exactly do I or anyone else in this forum have to believe every word a Toyota owner says? Or that anyone says in any post on any board? Don't we have a right to "cross-examine", or to at least invite the other side to come on line and give their version of the tale?

Where exactly in that Automotive News article is the interview with the master technician, the service manager at the dealership, the arbitrators and the warranty personnel at Toyota regional office?

Jeff had a *great* question---to paraphrase---what would it take for each of you to be convinced about this issue one way or the other?

The reason it's a great question is that if a person cannot come up with an answer, then their mind is completely closed to the truth.

For me, it would take some kind of field test, with 1,000 or so random brand-new Toyotas, monitored by the various dealerships participating. All these cars would be given 100% free maintenance according to the Toyota owner's manual. They'd have a special "beta" warranty card. At the end of a certain mileage, the cars would all be examined for sludge. Random cars, random drivers, random climates. Or, as an alternative, the cars can be split into three groups. Normal maintenance schedule, accelerated maintenance schedule, and postponed maintenance schedule.

Now if the acclerated maintenance group came up clean, that would be interesting. If the normal maintenance came up clean, that would be REALLY interesting, and if only the postponed maintenance came up dirty, then the case is closed in my mind. But if normal maintenance comes up occasionally dirty, then some of the complaining owners have been vindicated.

I say "some" because there will be cases where the owner is in very severe service but doing only the normal maintenance schedule and isn't following the owner's manual. So they would be in default of the warranty.

Then we'd know something.

pdalpsher · March 2002

Knowledge...finding out what the root cause of the sludging is so I know what I need to do about it. I'm one of those 3k servicers as most of the year just the weather creates 'severe' conditions for my HL.

One thing that I'm trying to determine from the anecdotal evidence is if extended driving is somehow hard on these engines due to heat. Normally highway miles are 'easy' on an engine but if heat builds up, breaks down the oil prematurely then those are no longer 'easy miles'. I put a lot of hwy miles on a '90 Camry and it went 223k and is still going strong for a neighbor of mine.

One of the things I plan to do is an extended driving vacation this summer. If the heat build up issue isn't clarified by then I'll feel a bit less certain about the engine and will wonder if 3k change intervals are sufficient for highway driving in hot weather.

I'm more than willing to do what it takes to get 220k + miles out of this engine...I just want to be sure that what I'm doing is directed at the right issue.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2002

It sure sounds like heat is one major factor and from what I'm reading, a possible head gasket problem may be another. Did you notice in the post some 40 posts back, from a woman posting on MSN forum, that she noticed "white smoke" coming from her Toyota prior to the sludging occurring sometime later? This is a classic head gasket or cylinder head cracking problem. Unfortunately, she continued to drive another 850 miles, but she got a new engine anyway, after a hassle apparently.

pdalpsher · March 2002

That raises the possibility of another 'part' breaking or failing prematurely (gasket, PCV, etc.) that contaminates the oil creating the conditions leading to the formation of sludge. I'm hoping that these parts are covered by the power train warranty. It could end up being a supplier's part defect that kind of points back to the question about why the same engine in a 2002 model isn't getting 'the letter'. I also haven't received a letter. I have a 2001 HL that I bought in August (probably mfg in July). I know they have my address as I just got my extended warranty and I've already done the survey. Could it be that the cut-off for the issue was mid-year 2001?

If there is a potentially defective part I wish Toyota would get all the potential sludgers in for analysis. That will cost a lot of $'s but if they proactively fix vehicles where they find coolant where it doesn't belong or clogged PCVs they will gain a lot in the goodwill department.

Inquiring minds want to know facts...and until more facts are available it is hard to draw firm conclusions.

BTW, do folks get their oil analyzed at the dealer or at an independent facility? Is it best done at what cycle of your oil's life...right after a change, mid-way or just before a change?

johnmcdan · March 2002

HOST writes:

>> It sure sounds like heat is one major factor and from what I'm reading, a possible head gasket problem may be another. Did you notice in the post some 40 posts back, from a woman posting on MSN forum, that she noticed "white smoke" coming from her Toyota prior to the sludging occurring sometime later? This is a classic head gasket or cylinder head cracking problem. <<

Many posts at various sites have reported smoke at cold start as a symptom. It was just before our 30k service visit that my wife noticed it and reported it to the dealership. They popped the valve cover and... the rest is history. I don't remember EXACTLY if it was "white" smoke (I thought it was); I could ask her. Would it be very white as opposed to... dunno... charcoal/black in some other diagnosis?

j

Mr_Shiftright · March 2002

No, john, very very white. Essentially this is steam created by engine heating up water. Water is getting into the combustion chamber from somewhere.

Blue smoke is oil-burning. On a start up only smoking condition, this is usually either valve stem seals, bad valve guides (around which the valve stem seals wrap) or in some cars a bad turbo that sucks in oil at startup.

Black smoke is usually an over-rich fuel condition, also dangerous in that raw gas can dilute engine oil and wash cylinders, causing seizure.

So a "white smoke" symptom (not subtle white smoke, but lots of it) is cause for an immediate intervention and towing of the vehicle.

PADLPSHER--I hadn't thought about a bad parts run from a sublet supplier, that is also a possibility, and could explain Toyota's slow start on this.

innovations · March 2002

Mine is a 2001 Sienna manufactured October 2000. So far, I have not received the letter yet either.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2002

innovations--I think I heard that the letters are being staggered, broken down into large mailings of around 800K or so. You may be in batch 2.

robmop1 · March 2002

My Lexus Dealer says it will take a month or more to get the valve parts to fix my 2000 ES300 because the have "so many" to fix. (I assume Lexas and Toyota)

jj35 · March 2002

Cliffy1 is the one who reported that the SPA letters are being mailed weekly in batches of 200,000 per week with Sienna letters being mailed first (after the 3,100 letters to those with slduge). Assuming that they began the week of Feb. 11, they should have mailed the first 1 million letters by the end of last week. I would think that all Sienna owners should have their letter by now, but my coworker with a 2001 Sienna has not received his yet. Maybe this plan has changed and Cliffy could give us an update.

jj35 · March 2002

Shifty - I reread your post 4554 after seeing Phillipm's reference to it.

Regarding your proposed test...if the failure rate is 1 in 1,000 (based on Toyota's reported estimate of 3,100 complaints for 3.3 vehicles) the test would need more than 1,000 random vehicles to be statistically valid. May not want to make it random either, if Toyota has some inkling of what could be contributing factors, may want to place focus there (i.e., all engines made on a Friday, vehicles driven in ambient temps over 95 degrees, whatever).

robmop1 - If Lexus is running out of parts from fixing vehicles, I would think that the number of sludge problems is greater than the 3,100 complaints received by Toyota. Some number of these 3,100 already had their repairs and are just waiting on reimbursement checks from Toyota. What part of the country do you live in?

hlron · March 2002

Johnmcdan, regarding your post 4552 where you point out I was snippy in my response regarding the stockholder discussion in my post #4544...you are right, I was. My apologies for doing so. That was not a productive way to offer my input, and I certainly could have worded my comments on that subject in a more mature manner and certainly without snip. Again, my apologies.

isellhondas · March 2002

I disagree. Our host has every right to challenge a poster's opinion in these forums.

"Cross examine" may be a bit strong, but I for one am happy that we have a host who is well versed in things mechanical with impressive credentials to prove it.

I'm surprised he has the patience he does. I would have closed this forum down long ago.

If it's that bad, tune out!

Mr_Shiftright · March 2002

The Host deliberately put the words "cross-examine" in quotes for a reason , such as when we talk and we wiggle our fingers and make quote marks. That means we aren't being too serious about the word we use. Also the term "we" was used along with "cross-examine", which means the Host invites everyone to politely ask any poster any relevent question you wish.

Are quotes markes too subtle for online communications, do you think?

e.g. Oh, sure, Toyota really "cares" about me (sarcasm)

e.g. Sometimes a car will really "talk" to you (metaphor)

e.g. My kid brother is the "terror" in the family (softening the word to mean less than usual)

The form of "interrogation" that the Host finds objectionable, and I'm sure many of you do also, is when someone repeatedly cuts and pastes little snippets of another posters words, often out of context, and grilles them on each syllable. No, nobody likes that and if you ever catch me doing it, or someone is doing that to you, please call me on it. Re-posting another's statement now and then-- fine if it is referential and in context. Dogging someone, uh-uh.

We don't want anyone to feel harrassed here. But if you are posting in a public forum you have to expect others to ask questions about what you are saying. Politely of course. You are responsible for your own words.

cliffy1 · March 2002

The pace of 200K per week had not changed. Toyota is trying to prevent their call center from being overrun. They don't want customers dropping off the line after waiting too many minutes.

sinjin_dog · March 2002

A friend of mine received the letter, two pages long, with no date execpt March 2002. I saw it and read the letter. This guy has 2001 Sienna, bought it Feb 2001 in Los Angeles area. I own 2000 Camry(no sludge), have not recieved the letter yet and also live LA area.

cliffy1 · March 2002

There are many on this board who are making a number of assumptions that are not backed by proof. I am hesitant to even bring this up, but the posts of the last 48 hours are really bugging me.

Assumptions:

1. Something changed in the engine in '97. Many assume this because that is the first year of the SPA. Has anybody considered that this could be an arbitrary date? Is it possible that this was chosen because it the last year of vehicle that would be covered by the original 5/60 warranty?

2. Something changed in 2002. This is assumed because the 2002 is not covered in the SPA. Could it not be that Toyota didn't include this year because it is too new to offer it? A letter will be going out to those owners later this year simply reminding them of how important regular maintenance is, along with a reminder that many people don't realize that thier driving actually is "severe".

3. Toyota is hiding the cause of the gel. This one really gets me. I would invite readers to carefully think about this one. We are talking about a company that has done some huge recalls when defects were discovered. Ask the owners of any V6 truck or 4Runner from '89 to '95 about that one. Many of these owners blew head gaskets well past the 60K warranty but were reimbursed anyway. Just last week, there was a suspension recall on 4x2 Runners but Toyota decided to replace parts on the 4x4 as well, just to avoid confusion. Historically, this company has not run from problems.

4. Every word written by "sludge victims" is truth. Come on guys. If I had an axe to grind with any car company, this would be a very convenient place to get my pound of flesh. Embellishment of only a few facts can really skew the discussion. I don't expect anybody to come forward and admit this but it should be kept in mind.

5. No other car sludges. Were that the case, you wouldn't see so many references to it on the web. There have been many posts to maintenance and repair sites that mention oil changes to prevent sludge. This means that others cars do sludge. The results of that sludge may or may not be as catastrophic as with Toyota, but it does happen. Further, the mere existence of this site (despite the title, it is known as a Toyota related board) and the SPA means Toyota owners are more likely to post here. This issue has taken on a life of its own.

Can we all take a breath here? I have listened to people with other points of view than myself (ask rrinehardt about that). I would ask for the same courtesy.

nonjth13 · March 2002

After 35 years of driving GM products, I opened up my piggy bank and purchased a 2001 Avalon XLS 12 months ago. I have had no problems so far, but did receive the infamous "why are you such an idiot" letter in the mail today. I have never changed oil more often than twice a year, and routinely keep cars more than 10 years. I have never had any type of engine problem, including our 93 Mazda MPV which we still have. As an engineer with a post graduate degree, I find it strange that Toyota is trying to blame the customer for a problem that sounds like a design or construction flaw. I need an oil change this month so I think I will put in Mobile 1 just to be on the safe side. jth

cliffy1 · March 2002

Twice a year may be sufficient, depending on how you drive and how many miles you put on it. Don't take the letter as an "why are you such an idiot" but rather as a reminder to those who, unlike yourself, don't appreciate how important regular oil changes are.

mfjj · March 2002

cliffy1 said: "2. Something changed in 2002. This is assumed because the 2002 is not covered in the SPA. Could it not be that Toyota didn't include this year because it is too new to offer it? A letter will be going out to those owners later this year simply reminding them of how important regular maintenance is, along with a reminder that many people don't realize that their driving actually is "severe"."

Dear cliffy1, if I'm one of those who had "bugged" you, I do apologize. I'm not assuming anything here. I'm just asking if there's anything new about the 02 V6 that may affect sludge formation, intentionally or unintentionally. We all know it WAS slightly modified for other reasons.

Of course, if your position is that the sludge can ONLY come from owner neglect, any change in the 02 V6 would be irrelevant However, I'm open to the possibility that an unreliable part (with a defective rate of, say, 0.1%) could conceivably hasten the formation of sludge in some engines despite regular maintenance. The 02 modification may (coincidentally) eliminate this cause.

Also, in this future letter to the 02 owners, do you know if the suggested maintenance would be 3000 miles, or the same 5/7.5 schedule? Many people on this board seem to suggest that anyone not changing oil at 3K intervals have only themselves to blame. Now THAT really "bugged" me. I thought Toyota had recommended 5K all along.

Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

mrdetailer · March 2002

The new SL classification for Motor Oil significantly raises the bar on Anti sludging. The test is now run for 80 hours instead of 60, and oil thickening can only be 240% increase rather than the previous 320. Ford and Honda actually require a 120 hour test on the 5W-20 before the 240% thickening.

lbthedawg · March 2002

"3. Toyota is hiding the cause of the gel. This one really gets me. I would invite readers to carefully think about this one. ...Historically, this company has not run from problems."

Did a little cut and paste but isn't this the same company that STILL won't acknowledge that this IS a problem.

I really believe that this will become a business school subject in the future. Never before has the net been used against a major corporation. Not like this at least. This will not be discussed about how to handle a situation. It will be discussed as how NOT to handle a situation. The poster who has labeled this the "I'm an idiot" letter campaign has hit the nail on the head. I'm just curious what bone headed PR move Toyota will make next.

cliffy1 · March 2002

Interesting post. I actually agree. "Never before has the net been used against a major corporation. Not like this at least." Truer words have not been posted.

innovations · March 2002

You have to also realize that this can be seen both ways. Yes, the internet has become a new way for the consumer to reach out to form a collective just as powerful as any corporation. That has been proven with both good and bad causes. I think lbthedawg's post about Toyota's response "could" become a business school case-study in the future. We all know that the best education is real life applications. We're witnessing a "problem", whether percieved or "proven", that is being monitored on a daily basis. What we haven't seen yet is a solution. The ball is in Toyota's court.

I've pasted the quote from johnmcdan from his ealier post that is an excellant summary of how most of us feel at the moment.

"It is my feeling that both Toyota Corporate and many of its dealers have missed an opportunity over the last several years to solidify loyalties with customers. The clock can't be turned back on that one. Nothing that Toyota does now can completely erase the initial experience for many owners. If further information reveals that the SPA is a band-aid pacifier instead of an admission of a design flaw and an full frontal attack upon the problem, then Toyota is going to look even worse. Corporations sometimes win such gambles, but when they lose them it's a disaster. To date, I know of no third party scientifically approached study of the engine design used by Toyota. We need that to happen."

hlron · March 2002

mrdetailer, thank you for your post and the information... I had not seen any info on SL with the test detail you note until your posting here. Since the API SL service category was introduced by API on July 1, 2001 it has not been out even a year yet. I have been curious if the new SL could help with sludge issues. Sounds promising.

I checked with the Toyota dealer that I get my Highlander serviced at, and was pleased to learn they use Valvoline 10W 30 SL.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2002

In your quote of johnm's statement:

"Nothing that Toyota does now can completely erase the initial
experience for many owners. " (johnm's words).

Historically it could be suggested that these experiences CAN be completely erased.

This was done with Audi, who in the mid-80s had horrible publicity (accusations of causing deaths) and who were very slow to address the public about it. Now Audi is on a roll.

This was also done in the 70s by Mazda, which had a horrible and deserved reputation for oil-burning rotary engines (the media joke was a parody of their radio commercials, a song that went-- "and the Mazda goes HUMMMMMM". The jokesters added the words "and then BANNNGGGGG")

The last company I can think of who turned a bad situation completely around was Hyundai, which is a "comeback kid" after having sold Americans some of the worst cars ever to set foot (tires?) in this country.

Interesting quote in today's Automotive Digest:

"Two rather unsettling developments this past week may give the industry some cause for concern, action, & even wonder. Toyota''s engine sludge problems seem to suggest that the
automotive industry needs to spend serious money on a massive campaign to educate
consumers about oil changes. While one can say that tougher CAFE standards are difficult &
expensive to attain, the Senate''s vote seems short sighted, ill-timed, & politically derived. Both
of these issues could prove very costly to the automotive industry in the next five years,
particularly if lawyers & the Saudis have their way."

dardson1 · March 2002

I did not buy my 01 Sienna because is was sexy, particularly fun to drive, especially handsome, or impressive to the neighbors. It was hardly an impulse buy as it took 2 months to convince myself I should move from an oversized gas hog SUV into a PC Toyota minivan. I consoled myself the decision was the "wise" one, moving to an absolutely "bullet-proof" Toyota that was basically a gas+oil vehicle running for 200k with only yearly visits to the dealer for recommended service.
Whether the sludge issue is fact or fiction, I found myself sitting (often for a couple of hours) at the Toyota dealership every few months so I would have PROOF the dang oil was changed (instead of 10 minutes at Jiffy Lube). I found myself wondering if I should lose the thing now before the word got out or keep it and take my chances. I found myself checking the oil level (way often), peering into the hole where the oil goes, inspecting the oil filler cap, and watching the exhaust for smoke when I started up. I found myself doing exactly what you aren't supposed to have to do with a Toyota.....worrying about my transportation.
In the end, if Toyota doesn't have their "bullet-proof" reputation, what have they got? IMHO a bunch of fairly boring vehicles that are under optioned and over priced. Their niche is that "bullet-proof" rep. They better fix this thing and fix it soon. I got rid of mine and I'm usually way ahead of the curve.

joedbob · March 2002

I recently took my 2000 Avalon XLS and 2002 Camry XLE to my local Toyota dealer for oil and filter service. I have always believed in changing the oil every 3000 miles or less. On both cars, the dealer placed the usual plastic see-through oil change reminder on the inside of the windshields on completion of the oil change.

In the past, ever since I purchased the Avalon in October of 1999, the little sticker reminder indicated the next change was due 5000 miles from the current odometer reading. Funny thing...on both cars this time, the next oil change was due in only 3000 miles from the current odometer. Hmmmmmm? Wonder why? Can anybody guess? Must have been a mistake on both cars.

innovations · March 2002

dardson, your description of your Toyota taking control of your life hits way too close to home. I also did extensive research before buying my Sienna. My primary reason for buying it was because of it being rated as THE most reliable minivan on the market. So far it has been extremely reliable. 15 months later - no problems. Even though I can say that, I find myself doing the "peering into the oil hole" thing and sitting at the dealership for up to an hour after driving for 2 1/2 hours to get there. Now, I'm taking the long route into town to make sure that I drive at least 6 miles before turning the engine off and not becoming another start and stop casualty. I even posted a month or so ago that I had a nightmare about the sludge.

Needless to say, I'm watching and waiting to see how this plays out. As you probably discovered, the resale price has depreciated tremendously, not just for Toyota, but for all cars because of the all time sales end of last year resulting in used cars flooding the market. So, it makes the most sense to me to wait at this point. See what Toyota is going to do. I'm thinking that in 6-9 months we'll have better information to work with. If someone can post indicating that they have had ALL of their oil changes at the dealership AND within the 5000 or less mile interval AND still developed sludge then I'll be in the market for a different car and not a Toyota. I don't *think I've seen that post yet. Maybe it's been posted and I missed it.

I'm thinking that if the sludge issue is going to play out, it will be in the next 6-9 months. If there is a case, it will be a better time to sell. The used cars will have moved by next fall and I suspect the depreciation can't be any worse than it is now.

catgem · March 2002

thank you for your posts...it is refreshing to see calm posts!! (I apologize for my tirade against NCDS, but they bothered me more than Toyota, because they were such phonies!!)
But, here we sit,trying to figure out what to do next...I am tempted to just dump my Sienna, especially because I had to sign a release. But, it is not a good time for me, and I would rather not act in haste!! I love the way it drives, and we will be making a short move this summer,and all that space will come in handy....
Shifty, you made a good point about car companies redeeming their reps!! Many once great businesses are no longer mighty, and the reverse can certainly be true. I wish that folks who get so emotional about Toyota would take some business courses. Read some business law. Study the rise of Big Business in America (the railroads, the "robber barons"). What Toyota has done is not very unique OR surprising.

curlyq · March 2002

I received my letter today for my 2000 Solara. I must say I was a bit put off by its tone and deflection of the issue at hand. It is sad to see a company that built a reputation on quality built, long lasting vehicles, can continuously blow it on the customer service end of the business. Since Toyota likes to survey its customers about their purchase and service experiences, I'd like to see a campaign letting Toyota know we are "COMPLETELY UNSATISFIED" with their explanation and handling of this very serious matter.

pronigier · March 2002

Toyota dealer gave me a copy of the letter that is supposed to go out to all owners of certain vehicles. I have a Camry that smokes. They are saying that there is oil jelly in the engine from changing the oil at 7500 miles instead of the severe requirment of 5000 miles. Funny but I have been changing the oil at 5000 miles. Anyway I will get my car fixed and then change the oil at 3000 miles and add an additive every other time. Would switching to Mobil One help.

8u6hfd · March 2002

Valve stem seals may be leaking.

tccmn1 · March 2002

I just got my Camry back after 2 weeks in the shop all covered under my EXTENDED WARRANTY. My Camry has 76K miles on it. They gave me a loaner too...so that part wasn't too bad.
They machined the head and installed new valve guide seals. Total costs for them was nearly $1000! I had the smoking problem at start-up issue and was originally told(last summer) to live with it....it's normal!

Well, now we see the mailings and the Toy trying to save face effort in place. It's just too bad to see a quality co. go down hard with SOOOO many vehicles affected (3.5 million) per my local Toy. service rep. who told me about this letter for the first time when I picked up my car!!

I was planning on buying a new v6 Highlander....should I now?? Maybe, they fixed the problem on the newer models...it's a risk.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2002

Was it just the valve stem seals that went bad at 76K, or the valve guides themselves?

If just the seals, that could happen to any engine at those miles. They get hard with age and use, and depending on your luck, may be a big problem or a small one. Still, more like 125K would be normal for valve stem seals. If the guides were bad at 76K, that's definitely premature IMO.

I posted the automotive digest quote to show the relationship of Toyota's letter to the "fear of attorneys" noted in the Digest.

webguyster · March 2002

When people mention this "smoke", is it so much white smoke, like a fog machine? Without looking at everyones bio to see where you live, most cars smoke at start up, in winter. I am aware that my car smokes upon cold start up, and as a comparison, I can use a friends 2001 Hyundai Santa Fe, recently recalled. We frequently meet at a movie theater, and with it being winter, start our cars, parked together, and the Hyundai warms up much faster than my Solara, and seem to have less smoke. Again my dealer has assured me, without looking in the engine, but just based on my maintenance, that I don't have any sludge problem, or any other engine problem. Says..."just keep changin' your oil!". I see old beaters burning oil, so I know it's blue smoke, but it seems that all cars smoke a bit at a cold start, thus all the posting about condensation, water, etc. How much white smoke is too much?

Anyone know why 2002 Toyota owners will get a letter later this year, and not at purchase? Is it a SPA letter?

Anyone have any feedback as to doing engine flushing as regular, annual, maintenance? It is not too costly, or time consuming, seems to be recommended on the web, mostly by the manufacturer of the machine, and has various opinons posted, throughout the web, as to its value.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2002

I think flush is not really a preventative, but rather a restorative, to clean out an existing problem. If you are doing short interval oil changes, I don't think you'd need to do that + flushing.

Coolant flush is a different matter, since coolant isn't regularly changed.

Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

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