Ford Focus ZX3 / SVT vs. Honda Civic Si / RSX

hamproof · January 2003

Here's a link to a local dealership selling SVT Focus.

Link to Varsity Ford

There's $2500 rebate on 02 Focus SVT. Also, 02 ZX3 is only $10,400 or so. Even that comes w/ 16" rims.

I know I priced an 03 Si and comparing it to an 02 SVT. But at least Ford doesn't have problem comparing a slow selling overpriced non-competitive SVT Focus compared to the Si. The prices that we see on the 02 Si, we can at least agree is not typical. Let's talk more once the 02 runs out and compare the 03 Si. Maybe the 03 Si will be massively discounted too. It is ironic an 02 Si w/ more HP can be had for less money and an 02/03 Civic EX.

In anycase, I'm on your side esp. on the rim/tire of the Si. Defnitely not worth the $19k MSRP nor the $17.4k INVOICE.

rivertown · January 2003

That's my point! An SVT can't be bought for what an Si can, even if somebody wanted to. It looks to me like one could buy an Si, change out wheels, tires, and stereo, and still come out money ahead on an Si - even buying an '03 Si if one 'needed' to do that.

anonymousposts · January 2003

That's my point river. With the $2,000 I saved I can get a nice set of 17's and an intake. The SI is already competitive with the Focus in acceleration. Funny thing is I've seen more SI's around here than SVT's. Probably has something to do with Ford only selling 7500 SVT's. Honda just overestimated the market. Had they brought over 7500 SI's the prices would not be close to the $16,400 that I paid back in July or the $15,000 you can get them for now.

moparbad · January 2003

The dealership mentioned does not have an SVT in inventory. They have inventory search available online and they have zero 2002 Focus SVT. It only lists a rebate for the 2002 SVT, but no SVT's to apply the rebate to. Who does have SVT's?

moparbad · January 2003

http://www.bonforums.com/recalls/focus_svtthrottle.htm

quote-The Focus SVT has been criticized from within and outside of Ford for extended production delays and Ford's announcement many not settle well with enthusiasts and Ford dealers who want a departure from continued embarrassing quality glitches.-end quote

Embarrassing is correct in regards to Focus quality.

rivertown · January 2003

My take has been that an SVT purchase would be more of a quest and more of an expense than an Si purchase and still yield a less satisfactory result even if successful.

"Yuck, who needs it!"

Reminds me of my approach to romance!

hamproof · January 2003

$5k left over for a whole bunch of performance upgrades. Heck, you don't even have to upgrade to 16" rims since they come w/ 16" rims at that price from the link I provided.

It is a moot point (referring to anony) to argue that you save $2k from buying the Si over the SVT and you can use the money to buy rims.

Face it. 02 Si are not selling. Thus the low $15k price. It is not typical. Stop using the lowest absolute price on an Si and compare it to average to high price of SVT Focus.

If we can't find Si like the SVT Focus sold anywhere, you can bet the dealer will ream your rearend when you show interest in buying the Si. Just count our blessing for those of us who happen to like the Si and live with its shortcomings and got it for $15k. Personally, $16k for me.

rivertown · January 2003

That's part of the point, Ham - the difficulty coming up with a real SVT price. You're actually doing what you're acusing Anony of doing - comparing real with unreal prices. 'Tain't worth arguing about.

Talking about a 10.5K ZX3 makes sense. That puts the ZX3 in the frame I have for the Mazda Protege - good handling, a little weak in the power department, questionable reliability and resale. I.e., for me, not a bad choice but one to be opted for only if $'s are too tight for an Si.

ZX3 vs. Pro? I'd go ZX3, mostly for the looks.

moparbad · January 2003

quote- Stop using the lowest absolute price on an Si and compare it to average to high price of SVT Focus. -end quote

I can not find any advertised price for the SVT other than MSRP. If I could find a different price I would use it. The price I used for Si is certainly not the lowest possible, other people have stated that they have purchased for less than $14,500. I do not use that price for Si because I can not confirm it.
Heck, I can not even find an SVT in inventory.

moparbad · January 2003

I did a different type of search and found about 20 Focus SVT 2002 for sale in US. 8 of them were used or demo but there was one for $15,998 in TN with 860 miles which is a great deal. Just posting so I'm not too biased:)

rivertown · January 2003

'02 SVT with 860 miles @ 16K vs. '02 Si with 20 miles @ 15K. Yum, yum! Gimme that Ford product!

Not!

rivertown · January 2003

Already broken/broken in/broken up, too! YUM!

hamproof · January 2003

Just to let you know, I wasn't referring to you. In fact almost all my post are referring to anony and gee35 coz' I don't have a life and I love to dissect each and every word they post.

But can we at least agree that the average purchased price for the 02 Si is around $17k since some bought them at $18k-$19k and some of us bought them at $15-$16k. Since the SVT doesn't have mass discounting like the slow selling Si (whether because it was non-competitive, overpriced or oversupplied, whatever the reason), the average price is probably around $17k as well.

For every Honda geek that drools over an Si, you can also find a red-blooded American who drools over a Focus SVT.

Resale value comparison is usually done unfairly. In the past, Civics enjoyed a very high resale value coz' they were purchased a little above invoice/at invoice/below invoice. Compare this to their counterpart (American cars), they were massively discount to move. In the end, you can have a 99 Civic EX selling for the same as a 99 Ford Taurus for example. But then we tend to look at the non-discounted Taurus price and compare that to the Civic (KBB/Edmunds etc. is guilty of doing this when they factor in depreciation) and claim Honda is the king of high resale value.

What about the people who paid $18-$19k or even more when the Si first came out. These poor people are seeing a hit of about $4k comparing to new 02 Si sitting on the lot. I would prefer if we compare it to the 03 Si which are selling around $16-$17k. Hopefully these will sell well. Otherwise, when it comes time to sell my car, I'll be lucky to get $10k in 3 years time in a private sale. Minivan looks, hatchback and puny rims + small HP doesn't help either when competition will continue to offer more HP, better cars and reliability to boot.I might have to make my current beater (the 02 Si) to be the beater of my next beater down the road.

rivertown · January 2003

I know you were replying to Mopar and not me, but I don't get your point.

speeds2much · January 2003

Before everyone falls his/her stool laughing over this comparison (btw, I could not think of where else to talk about this except the" vs. Civic Si" thread), for fun I want to point out that the January 2003 issue of Autocar (UK publication, limited availability in North America) does just that, in a full-fledged, 12-page story called "The Road Trip." The reporters race all over Germany, Spain, France and Italy, and ultimately conclude...get this..."in the wet (the Focus) was unbeatable and in the dry it was rarely left behind....So while the Lambo is truly an exceptional supercar, it's the RS that's the greater achievement."

In 2001, I had the opportunity to do a similiar thing: drive a Focus from London to Paris, via the Eurorail car shuttle (had to swap for a left-hand drive car on the French side, Hertz's "Le Swap" lol). It was a fantastic drive and I highly recommend it. Most relevant to this board's topic, the Focus was amazing at speed. The flow of traffic was in excess of 100 mph throughout northern France, and the car was extremely stable and composed at this cruising speed, and when I punched the accelerator in 5th gear at 100 mph (the top speed I hit was 110), it wanted to keep running. It has definitely been designed in Europe for European-style driving. The visibility and driving position contributed to my sense of being in control of that car. I was passed by several vehicles: Honda S2000, Porsche 996, Japanese racing bikes, the Eurostar passenger train....but the Focus was very much in its element and is a good GT for long trips across Europe.

As for the Honda Si, I have never driven a current one, but did once own a Honda Civic CRX Si. It was like a big go-cart: quick responses and stayed glued to the pavement no matter how hard I pushed it into corners. I can't say how stable it is at 100 mph, because I never drove it that fast. The Civic Si and Focus RS are great cars. Since I don't own either one, and haven't driven the current Civic Si, I'll reserve judgment on which one is better.

vadp · January 2003

Focus RS against Civic Si? Are you really that funny?
But seriously, I think you don't realize that you have mistaken the Focus RS for some other model, probably the Focus ST170.
Or maybe you meant the Civic R instead of the Civic Si?

speeds2much · January 2003

I'm not sure what you're talking about. The comparison in Autocar was RS (cost 20,000 GBP) vs. Lambo (cost 200,000 GBP). The RS was a stock RS straight from the factory.

I did not compare the RS directly to the Si. I said that I had driven a Focus and once owned a CRX Si (the discontinued 2-seat version of the Civic Si). It's not really fair to compare a 1991 CRX to a 2001 Focus, so I did offer any opinion on which is the better car.

rivertown · January 2003

What we're talking about here is a 32K dollars (US) Focus. The type R Civic we're so tickled about stickers at 27K dollars in the UK. Even with the same % discount we're seeing here in the US, the type R would cost about 22K dollars.

That all seems right to me, getting what you pay for and all that.

vadp · January 2003

Well, I'm sorry for misunderstanding, but I can only read your words, not your mind.
"The Civic Si and Focus RS are great cars. Since I don't own either one, and haven't driven the current Civic Si, I'll reserve judgment on which one is better."

vadp · January 2003

Nobody knows when if ever the Civic TypeR or Focus RS will ever make their way to this shores.
But you allready seem to have all the prices lined up.;)
My guess would be that you're really good with the stocks.;)

rivertown · January 2003

LOL, you're right, Vadp [not necesasrily about my financial market wizardry, :{]. It's all speculation.

It helps me, though, to estimate the price tag attached to the wish - when I'm wishing.

dmould · January 2003

I am very interested in purchasing one of these cars, and would like to know what people have paid in Canada. The Civic lists for $26350 ($25,500 + 850 freight), and the loaded SVT lists for $30700 including freight.
Our SVT dealer still has the 2002 Focus SVT, all the colours available.
I test drove the SiR, and found it much nicer than the 2002 Civic Si coupe we currently have. More power, quieter, and hatchback roominess. I am 6ft tall, yet my head annoyingly touches the roof in the coupe - no problem in the hatch.
Anybody buy one of these in Canada?

revka · April 2003

Due to speculated demand, this discussion has moved back form our arhived files and reopened. Thanks for your participation!

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mattpdx · July 2003

Okay people, I've read all 8 pages of arguments on this subject. I've heard all the reasons blah blah blah...and let me just tell you how I see things as somebody who SERIOUSLY considered a Focus ZX3 (before I knew about the SVT, which I also considered once I learned about it).

Civic + :

1)Crash tests.
2)Higher resale value
3)Higher gas mileage
4)Better overall quality (i.e. body gap tolerance, interior materials, etc)

Civic - :

1)Lower HP
2)Smaller Tires
3)5 speed tranny
4)Possibly eats up oil (but who cares, oil is cheap, right?)
5)Thieves love it
6)Needs-rhinoplasty front end
7)Strange hard plastic dash/weird area above knees (is that space for cell phones? Change? SOMEBODY PLEAAAAAAASE tell me! arrrgghgh!!!)

Focus + :

1)Great looks (in my opinion, it is WAY cuter than the current Si, though that will change with the Si freshening for '04-just you wait!)
2)6 speed tranny
3)Wheels
4)Interior (not the most attractive, but again, for some reason I LIKE IT)
5)Fewer recent recalls (i.e. quality/reliability is up)

Focus - :

1)Past recalls make me VERY nervous
2)Ford, in my mind, is FOUND ON ROAD DEAD
3)Resale value NOT so good
4)Crash test reults!
5)Lower gas mileage (yes, I know it has to do with a more powerful engine, but you can't compare the Si to the ZX3)

For me, as a consumer, it comes down to TWO THINGS...and at least one of these things one of you said "nobody cares about".

1)CRASH TEST REULTS
2)***GAS MILEAGE*** (bells go off)

I am from Oregon. In the 70's the state created jobs by having people not pump their own gas. I now live in Texas, where you pump your own gas. I HATE PUMPING MY OWN GAS. People in Oregon are truly spoiled. That being said, I want to go as FAR AS I CAN GO without refueling. And therein lies the answer: the car with the higher mileage.

Civic, you're my baby. I love you. Can I take you to dinner? What, you like Synthetic? What vintage...?

:-)

fslaugts · July 2003

I agree with you mattpdx. I have read a great deal about both cars. But I want the si. I don't trust the reliability of the focus svt.. That is my number one concern. The last time I checked 03 si's were going for $16500 here in florida. OTD $18200. I really want to hold out for the 04. I almost bought an 02 si last January for $17500 OTD but someone else beat me to it while I was Thinking about it. I have been mad every since..

dudka · July 2003

Well, I have the si, and it is a blast to drive. It DOES eat oil, the dealer is telling me that a quart/1000 miles is ok for now, and Honda is aware. BS, they are going to have to re-build my engine or give me the RSX Type S engine with the 6 speed (direct bolt on) before i agree to keep it (possible lemon law action)
Honda has an excuse though, Si's are built in England.
Other than that, the car is quick. it has an unusually low red line (somewhere by 7200). I constantly bump into the rev limiter (could be the reason why i lose oil) At highways speeds, the car is very stable, but defenately needs 6th gear, at 80 mph it is revving at 4000 RPM. But that low gearing is great for stop and go driving, you cvan easily drive in 1st gear at 5-15 mph without bogging the engine, or playing with the clutch. In an "aggressive driving mode" I can easily chirp the tires in 2nd gear. Up hill starts in the wet are somewhat tricky if you are not at "hell and toesing" a little too much gas and can do a wild burn out. This past winter, I had to resort to 2nd gear starts on slick roads.

The car is very stiffly suspended, which is a plus in my eyes, going over bumps never makes it bounce up and down like regular civic does.

The seats are very comfortable, as long as you are not overweight, they are molded and only the seatback is adjustable, as opposed to seatback and coushion adjustments on the EX.

The shifter takes a total of 15 minutes to get used to, and then you start asking "Why haven't they thought of that before?" The location places it much closer to the steering wheel, allowing for very quick shifts. Lack of armrest and the shifter location make it impossible to rest your right arm anywhere. I just hook my finger on the bottom of the steering wheel.

I have not driven SVT, so I can not comment.

My girlfriend, who drives regular focus, summarized it in "way too much power"

The i-VTEC engine is a much better version than regular VTEC. It has gobs of torque down low, hence the wheel spin. Purinsts will disagree with me. It really behaves like a small V6. 50 to 70 accelerations do not require downshifting anymore.
To be honest, I like pumping my own gas. I am in NJ allot, and that is another state where you can not pump your own gas. How many times my "check engine light" has come on because those kids at the station did not tighten the cap (3 clicks)

rivertown · July 2003

I agree wholeheartedly with Dudka's impressions
except
mine stopped using oil at about 3K miles. I don't drive quite as hard as Dudka (but hard enough to get 23-23 mpg on many tanks).

People - on the street, at lights, refilling propane, at the gas pump, etc. - comment positively a lot.

muffin_man · July 2003

My si is at 12,000 miles, and hasn't eaten any oil since my first oil change, which I did at 3000 miles.

It's a fantastic car.

rlafaver · July 2003

I have tried the Focus, and I like it. I thought the comparison would be interesting, so I read these posts, but the myth of Honda quality keeps getting in the way. I bought two brand new Hondas in the 90's, an Accord and a Civic. Both were 100% serviced by Honda and both were junk, so I have never bought another and I would not (transmissions, brake rotors, CV joints, paint, etc., etc.) Thank goodness I didn't buy the "indestructable" hype from the sales guy. I bought extended warranties for both.
I cannot understand the hang up Honda owners have about hiding their problems. Perhaps it is because they paid too much and are embarrassed about admitting they bought junk. I was embarrassed too, but my anger was much greater.
I have had many good cars and a few bad ones (bad were a Pontiac, 2 Hondas, a Suzuki).
I think if you stick to performance experience people can get a better comparison. Besides the Focus drivability, the thing that amazes me is the list of aftermarket add-ons Ford makes for the Focus. They include cosmetic parts and performance parts, and all can be added without voiding your warranty. I saw one with some sort of compartmentalized, tubular headlight system that was mind-blowing, and I learned that it was a Ford part, not third-party.

muffin_man · July 2003

I've had zero problems with my car, aside from an occasionally squeaky driver's side window.

I owned a 1991 Accord until sometime in 2000. In the last two years, the brakes would wear down quickly. The front wheel bearings locked up, and I had to replace a CV boot. All of this was at the 8-9 year mark. For the most part, I was very happy with it.

I'm glad you like your Focus, I seriously considered one. But as a _general_ rule, I would take my chances on Honda build quality over Ford.

Is your Focus an SVT? If it's an ordinary ZX3. It is not really comparable to the Civic Si, especially in power or interior equipment levels. That said, if you got it for a bargain basement price, you are driving a wonderful car on the cheap.

00silvergts6sp · July 2003

I wasn't always a hater. I had a nice little 97 escort loved it for about 6 months good little economy car. trans DIED. Dealer refused to fix it even though it was clearly under my extended warranty. finally settled in court they took back the 'scort and I got a focus outa the deal. much faster than my scort but in an auto and I didnt race it or mod it. Engine froze after a month and a half. Ever since been strictly a Honda/toyota guy. I have an 02 civic ex all modded with the RSX-s swap. Love it to death not 1 problem yet. also have a 2000 camry I got used in late 01 has 90+K miles drives like new still. Even after getting t-ed by an expedition doin 40 mph + and my little celica which I liked better than the SI sorry. But I would take the SI over the FORD anyday.

dudka · July 2003

My Si has been to the dealer many times in the last 7 months and all due to defects. My girlfriend's Focus has not been to the dealer once, only for maintenance.

Let's see.
1. A clip inside the door panel was loose and rattled from day one -- fixed under warranty
2. center vent stuck in the "to the right" position -- fixed under warranty
3. Clear coat started peeling in the hatch area ---- fixed under warranty
4. It is under Honda's oil consumption test right now
5. Just the other day the inside door handle on the driver's side broke -- have not taken to dealer yet.

I am disappointed at Honda's QC, but what do you expect from a car made in UK.

revka · July 2003

Here are a couple other discussions which you may find helpful: Best Hot Hatch - SVT, Civic Si, GTI, RSX, Mini, Beetle... and Which Hatchback?. You may want to use your copy/paste so you don't have to re-write your question. Good luck with your decision.

Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards

mdriver · August 2003

They sell the Civic coupe in the UK and it's made in the US. They have exactly the same reservations about a US made Civic as you do about a UK made Si. Hence, Brits hardly buy any Civic coupes. The idea that the Honda factory in the UK makes substandard cars is based on fantasy.

Whoever said the 02/03 Si's resale was a plus compared to the SVT will be very disappointed. You have to ask yourself how much of a trade-in the guy got for an Si you can buy new for $4k off MSRP.

The current Si should be compared more to the ZX3 than the SVT. The SVT has stellar handling, braking and steering, the Si doesn't quite match up.

Reliability. Yes, many Honda owners are fiercly loyal and do downplay any defects with their cars. But the reliability is proven also and so it's my opinion that it's probably a 50-50 combination of actual good reliability and perception. The SVT has no perception of good reliability and owners are much less likely to give the Ford a "break" when it come to reporting any problems.

rivertown · August 2003

Si vs. SVT vs. ZX3. Look at the TCO's. The SVT outcosts both of the others by about a third, and the Si is cheapest of the bunch to own. The financial argument - Ford loses.

Shucks, on the financial issue alone the RXS Type S beats the SVT.

muffin_man · August 2003

1. Resale
The points you have made about resale, on two seperate forums today, only apply to people who paid MSRP. Anyone who paid $16k or less (and there are many of us) is going to be fine.

2. Si vs. ZX3
If you don't like the Si, just say so. Every major magazine compared the Si to the SVT, never the ZX3. Car and Driver liked the Si better than the GTI, and only slightly less than the SVT. And Motor Trend liked it better than the SE-R. I never drove the Zetec ZX3, but I've driven the new PZEV, and it's very nice, but it does not compare with the Si.

3. Reliability
My Si has a noisy drivers window, and a creaky clutch, and that's it. I have 15,000 miles, no other problems. Now, I didn't bring up reliability, you did, but if you are going to say that the legendary reliability of the Focus is comparable to the Si, I am going to think you are only here to be argumentative.

mdriver · August 2003

Nope, not argumentative, I have a Civic and didn't buy a Focus ZX3 based on reliabilty alone, even though I thought it more of a sporty ride than the Civic. It's interesting you mentioned a creaky clutch. Mine (02 EX) creaks badly too. Did you fix it and what needed to be lubricated? Thanks.

muffin_man · August 2003

I haven't fixed it, but it does require a trip to the dealer. Apparently they need to replace the clutch spring and bushing. It's a pretty common problem.

dudka · August 2003

My girlfriend has a focus, albeit it is not a ZX3, it is a 4 door sedan SE ZTEC, but I think it would apply to most of the Focus line, except SVT. It has a few flaws, but Si is not perfect either.
Focus:
The bad:
1. Engine is very noisy at any RPM above idle.
2. Clunky shifter, I am almost never sure what gear it is in.
3. Handling is way too soft for my liking.
4. Downright dangerous to drive in the rain as the tail is constanlty wiggling at any speed above 45 mph.
5. Her trade-in after a year is only $9000-10000.
6. Poor uphill pick up in 5th gear.
7. Way to many things are optional, which should have been standard.

The good:
1. Good low RPM torque
2. Good gas mileage (over 30 mpg)
3. A/C is ice cold
4. Has not been to the dealership for anything onther than regular maintenance.
5. 0.0% financing

Civic Si:
The good:
1. awesome shifter position
2. smooth and crisp gears
3. lots of power down low (just like focus)
4. engine is much quieter through rpm range
5. awesome handling (i can take turns at 70 mph, as if it were straight away)
6. much cheaper than similarly packaged focus.
7. 4 wheel disk brakes with Electronic Force Distribution.
8. Dirt cheap if you look (got mine for $14,500)

The bad:
1. Unusually high oil consumption - dealer assures that it will stop after 10,000 miles. Will see.
2. Has been to the dealer for manufacturing defects 3 times, and now is ready to go again for a malfunctioning door handle.
3. Seats are highly saught after by "modifiers wannabes" (thieves)
4. Unusually low red line (6800 according to honda, 7200 according to my tach)
5 Desperately needs 6th gear, as it runs at 4000 rpm at 80 mph in 5th.
6. No arm rest, not even optional.

muffin_man · August 2003

I would like to preface my thoughts by saying that I like the focus, in all of its incarnations. I think it's a great car, and I might get one for my gf.

"The Bad"
1. I haven't had this problem, so I can't comment.
2. What defects? I have 2.
3. Not fair to use that as a negative!
4. The tach is meaningless, it's 6800. And that is only unusually low for an Si. Isn't the overall performance more important than the redline? I much prefer the power delivery of this car (and its redline) to the older Si. It is much more usable in every day driving.
5. A 6th gear doesn't mean overdrive. The RSX-S has a 6th gear (and you can easily put that transmission into the Si), and so does the Miata (and many others) that simply have closer spaced gears. No overdrive. The SVT doesn't have overdrive either.
6. I was having trouble shifting in the Focus with the armrest down, although I suppose it would be nice for cruising.

dudka · August 2003

well, i agree that overall performance is indeed excellent, but I come from a long line of Honda's, and I am used to hanging in the high rpms. I contantly bump the rev limiter in the Si, not so often lately, but pretty often until recently. I think the peak HP in the K20A3 ( I think that is what in the Si) is at around 6500 RPM, that only gives me 300 rpm to play with before shifting. But I am glad that torque is available down low, defenately make sit a better city vehicle, with shirt bursts of stop and go traffic. Overall, I am happy with the Si, but I will stop picking on ford, Focus did not need unscheduled visits to the dealer.

miagarfunckle · September 2003

Anybody out there that thinks that a Ford Focus or any american car can even be in the same ballpark is kidding themselves. Hondas are a completely different quality then any Focus. In the beginning both are equal until you start to put miles on them. Try redlining your focus and racing it around on a regular basis and it will fall apart it is just a matter of time. The honda about 90% of the time will hold out literally forever under the same conditions. Why is it if american crap is so reliable and great do they not have any websites to prove it. Honda on the other hand has Hondabeat.org which is a website where honda owners can put there high mileage cars on it. I searched for weeks and could not find any american car sites like this. The honda site lists numerous people with 500k+ mileage and many of them have been redlining and modifying their cars since day one. Also one guy even used vegatable oil in his old Honda instead of regular just to see if it would destroy the engine and it had no affect at all. If you do by american like a Focus you will get a better deal there is no doubt about that. Hondas are more expensive to maintain and to purchase new but in the long run they will not nickle and dime you to death like the Focus or american crap. Just make sure you trade in your american crap before 100k miles otherwise you will definitely become a Honda fan quick. Most people do not keep their cars past 50-100k miles before trading them in so never discover how crappy that american car really was so love to say that they were great cars. If you are like me and do not want to shell out a car payment forever you will get a Honda and keep it when the payments stop and still not have to worry.

miagarfunckle · September 2003

Any american crap owners look on Cars.com and go to cartalk section and look under the car surveys. This is an area were you can look up any car by make model and year and consumers over many years have written their comments about the cars and all the american ones(especially Ford) or at least most of them have consistent problems when you get cars that are more then 3-4 years old, however the Honda consumers constantly state how great the car is from the 2003 clear back to the early 80's and that is definitely not the case in the American car sections. As far as I am concerned consumers experiences mean a lot more then JD Power or any frekin survey

bc01cls · October 2003

Well this IS a heated discussion and I am entering it rather "late". However as an owner of BOTH a Civic Si and an SVT Focus I thought I might jump in here with some observations. SVT beats all of them financially including RSX. I bought my 02 SVT new for $16K LOADED with roof, leather, best 6CD sound system (with sub) I've ever heard (including my 01 Acura CL-S Bose system), 170hp Cosworth engine, 6 speed Gertrag box, 17" wheels, PW, PDL, Cruise, tilt, awesome ABS 4 wheel discs, etc. My 99 Si was great but I personally think Honda's assembly quality here in Ohio is slipping in the Civic department. Not thrilled about the English version either. (More buzzing than I wanted to hear in my 99.) I enjoyed my 99 Si, but you couldn't keep it on an interstate long without tiring either. High revs and not the best seats. SVTF comes with bolstered seats and lumbar for both driver and passenger, plus power lower cushion lift for driver. I drove 940 miles straight through at 85mph and it shines at highway speeds. Mind you, I am not a big Ford fan and think their quality lately really sucks even when compared to Chrysler (my 02 Ram QuadCab has been perfect for 26K miles), but so far the SVT has been flawless. Driving wise there is no comparison since the SVT is better balanced all the way around. It's one of those cars that you drive once and fall in love even though Ford sells and services it (gulp!). However, resale will be crap so you have to buy one at the end of the year and NEVER pay near sticker (20-21K!!). Then it's a deal! I see the new Si selling off sticker as well which does not bode well for Honda's resale. To me Honda lost it when they discontinued the 99-00 Si with double wishbone all the way around and better looks than the new version......just my opinion. That said and all quality debates aside, you have to drive an SVT to see what a surprise it is. Plenty of guys at Focaljet.com with 36k to 40k miles and no problems so I think there's hope for Ford. Hard to beat at the price I paid.

rivertown · October 2003

Congrats on that SVT buy. I had no idea you could touch a SVT for $16K.

With no wish at all to rain on your parade, check out the resale prices. Even with a buy price equal to the Si ($16K, smart shopper's price), the SVT comes in 2nd, buckwise, by $2-$3K.

These MSRP's are silly, IMO.

revka · October 2003

and thanks for your notes! It's interesting hearing from someone that's owned both the SVT and Si.

One small suggestion: it's a good idea to break up your longer messages into small paragraphs. This will makes it easier for other to read; and people will be more likely to read your entire message if it's easy on the eyes. Thanks for your participation! ;-)

To Everyone - Since the RSX has been brought into the discussion here on a number of occasions, I'm going to add it to the title subject. Hope this is helpful. Happy motoring!

Revka
Host of Hatchbacks & Wagons

dmould · October 2003

I test drove both these cars before choosing the SVT back in February. Here in Canada, the Si is almost $3000 cheaper, and would probably hold a better resale value. The Si does have nice seats and a very smooth drivetrain. I didn't like the short gearing which caused high RPMs and some noise on the highway, and the interior is a little cramped - my dog would not be comfortable in the hatch area of the Si like he is in the SVT. The SVT is so much more of a driver's car, and I love to drive. The extra's that the SVT has over the Si such as the great stereo, 17" wheels with performance tires, the 6th gear to bring down the RPMs on the highway, heated seats and traction control (keep the wife happy) make the price difference worth while. Driving the SVT is a joy every single day. We have had a couple of minor problems like a check engine light (new fuel cap) and abnormal tire wear (new strut and tire), but the dealer has treated us well. SVT owners get a free vacuum and car wash with every trip to the dealer! 18k miles in less than 9 months with the car.
The car we traded in on the SVT was a 2002 Civic Ex (Canadian Si) Coupe. My wife had hit a deer with it, and although the repair looked good, we decided to trade. That car was not of the highest quality - we had to have a strut replaced on it in the first 10k miles. So the Ford has been no worse than the Honda we had. Great thing about the Civic Coupe - fuel economy. Poor things about the Civic Coupe - lack of headroom (I'm 6ft tall, and my head was always touching, very annoying), less than stellar handling, not very quick.
The bottom line is that I would recommend the Focus SVT to anybody, especially if you like to drive. I've tried Solo II racing in the car, great fun. Ford has a long powertrain warranty on the car, to quell any concerns about quality.

moparbad · November 2003

Consumer Reports states that the Focus reliability has improved to the point the Focus is now recommended. Not only recommended, but at the top of the list for small cars.
http://www.detnews.com/2003/autosinsider/0311/04/c01-315932.htm

This in the same week that Honda announced huge recalls (not Civic).

Interesting how much change can occur in a short time.

redsir · November 2003

You cannot convince me that product quality can change overnight.

When looking at a Focus in the showroom I found the inner door jam had been unpainted. Why would anyone put that on display? How many people at Ford failed to see that?

To me that translated into equal apathy towards the rest of the car. Sorry no sale.

Reviews say this is a great car to drive, obviously well engineered. Too bad the rest of the company didn't hold up their end.

Final word, count the number of orphans Ford has created. How long will it be before the Focus is old news and gets moved to the back of the lot?

26000 km on my 02 SIR. Some nits but no major faults. Most of all it's a blast drive and fits like a glove.

muffin_man · November 2003

I love my Si, but I'm very happy to hear the Focus is doing so well. Lots of interesting news in that article.

I recently lowered my car by changing the springs, and the handling has improved significantly. Should be a lot of fun as long as the stock shocks last.

Ford Focus ZX3 / SVT vs. Honda Civic Si / RSX

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