Pontiac GTO

riez · June 2003

Was so glad to see the following in the GM announcement: "The GTO also offers a conventional limited slip differential, which increases available traction by using both rear wheels to transfer power when one loses traction." Amen. The news is getting better and better. Hope the price is reasonable and the interior materials decent.

orwoody · June 2003

see this link for GM announcement on the GTO:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6128&n=156,- 173&sid=173

montanafan · June 2003

Pontiac has updated the GTO section of their web site. Includes a color chart for outside, inside and dash. Lots of other info, but most interesting is estimated price of $33,000, with $695 for the 6-speed.

riez · June 2003

montanafan... Does it show a gas guzzler penalty for the 6-speed manual? If so, what?

ruski · June 2003

'cause I don't know how to drive stick

ruski · June 2003

sorry I should have read the article

b4z · June 2003

gmtv.feedroom.com

no www. in front of url.

Wait for it to load.

andys120 · June 2003

the GTO will list for $33,000, the six speed manual will cost extra and the V8 will be rated at 350bhp.

More at http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- - - _code=specials&loc_code=index&content_code=04062563

Retro fans--the '05 GTO will get hood scoops!

ffmcobalt · June 2003

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http

/image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewpressreleasedetail.do?domain=3&docid=818

theiceman · July 2003

I would tend to agree. My Bonneville came with 235/55/17 RSAs and they were "okay". They didn't last all that long and, for that, I'm grateful.

ice

andys120 · July 2003

tires and wheels are the easiest design elements to upgrade.

theiceman · July 2003

Hard to argue with one so wise. And yet, I like the sounds of the '04 Bonneville GXP - and the fact that it's going to come standard with 235/50/18s. Probably RSAs again, though. Nice enough tires when new but still only H-rated - and not very grippy once you've put a few miles on them...

ice

regfootball · July 2003

RS-A's are PURE CRAP. I know as i have them OEM on my 99 Taurus SLO. I've managed to baby them enough so I still have the originals on at 55,000 miles. Either these tires wear more than folks give credit for, or not enough wheelspins. With no low end torque I could see that being the case.

theiceman · July 2003

But GM knows their market probably better than I do - right? I can't tell you how many cars I looked at 2 1/2 years ago where the wheel/tire combination was just pure garbage. Easily the most important performance upgrade and I can tell you that it isn't only GM that doesn't get that. Mind you, I was looking at "large cars with a performance bent". Sadly - and entirely inappropriately - I (briefly) included the Avalon in that hunt. For the money you had to fork out for that wannabe Buick, I couldn't believe that the standard rubber were 205/65/15s!!!

Ever get into a discussion with car salesperson about tires? I did.

me: Hey, those wheels look a little small for a car of this stature.
he: Oh, I hadn't even noticed before. (bending over to squint at the "armour-all"ed donut) No, these are big enough - they're 15s. I've only got 14s on my Camry I think. You really don't need much more than that. Big tires are very expensive you know.
me: But so is this car.
he: But Toyota is interested in reducing your surprises down the road (tells me an "interesting" story about his uncle who paid $1000 for 4 tires!!!!)
me: (thinking "whatever") Fair enough but that aspect ratio reminds me of Rosie O'Donnell.
he: Huh?
me: Jackie Gleason?
he: Huh?
me: The tires look um... "well-rounded".
he: Well a car of this weight needs the grip.
me: On the sidewall?
he: That gives you cruising comfort.
me: Uh huh. Does it come with bigger wheels?
he: Let me see... (removes brochure from literature dispenser and flips to the back). Yes, you can order 16 inch wheels. With 205/60/16
me: Wow - that's some serious rubber.
he: (not getting the sarcasm) I think about 1/2 of the ones we sell come with the 16s but most of our customers don't care.
me: Interesting - then why do they order them?
he: Well, they come with some of the option packages.
me: Can you get them alone?
he: Probably - with a special order. But mostly they're bundled in with Nav, leather, or upgraded stereo packages.
me: Because?
he: I don't really know - you'd have to ask Toyota.

and so it went... (I also learned some fascinating "advantages" of engines which run on premium fuel only).

ice

obiwan · July 2003

I'm already planning my tire upgrade. I've been chatting a bit with the Aussies on the www.ls1.com.au message forum about what fits on the Monaro and what doesn't.

I'm probably going to get some 275/40R18's for the rear (they should just fit) and some 245/45R18's for the front.

Considering I was expecting $35K+ for my GTO, the $2K for wheels and tires isn't that big of a deal.

garnes · July 2003

Pretty funny. Actually, most dealer salesmen know NOTHING about what's on the floor. It's pathetic.

Still requires premium??? Too bad. The northstar's were redesigned to run on regular a few years ago and still perform as good if not better than their predecessors.

Anyway, I'm still jazzed about the GTO. I don't know as much about tires, but I'll take your word for it. No doubt the tires will make a big difference in the performance numbers for this car. I can hear the magazine editors already lamenting the inability to get the torque from this specially tuned torque monster LS1 to the pavement.

I will be looking at these cars in a few years - hopefully a low mileage used one. At that point it's not so bad to upgrade the tires. Hopefully in a few years all the usual hype will subside.

montanafan · July 2003

The GTO brochure says that the tires will be "W" rated (168 mph) not "H" (130 mph) as someone speculated.

theiceman · July 2003

I think the H-rated reference was mine and I meant it referring to the Bonnie's OEM tires. The RSA 225/50/17s are actually available in VR and WR rated versions.

My bad.

montanafan · July 2003

Your cool, my bad call. Man some of these forums are getting so mixed up lately with other cars, I am loosing track left and right.

And looks like GTO will be at the $1,000 GM Card rebate level for 2004. And I see that the GM Card will offer a master card with the GTO on it. Not sure if they will be doing the same in Canada with the Visa program.

montanafan · July 2003

Yes, the 2004 SLE will still be RSAs. Dosen't list brand for the GXP 18" "V" rated tires.

http://media.gm.com hit the 2004 info link

masmind1 · July 2003

Is navigation going to be an option?

cougar67 · July 2003

I have RS-A's on my 1998 Grand Prix GTP, and they have worn well, and have decent wet and snow traction. I will agree, though, that the traction available under full throttle (with only 280 pounds-feet of torque) isn't the best. With 365 pounds, wheelspin likely will be an issue. Of course, the traction control should prevent excessive wheelspin in normal take-offs, but enabling the traction control generally isn't the best way to get the quickest ET's...

theiceman · July 2003

After just 32k miles. When new, they were decent in snow and rain and very good on dry roads. As they aged, they got downright dangerous in snow (particularly slush), iffy in rain and okay on dry roads. While there was decent tread left, I had lost confidence and wasn't prepared to chance them into a winter.

If GTOs ever get to Canada, I'll have a look but I'd be tempted to do a tire exchange with the dealer on day 1 if they insist on shoeing the GTO with RSAs.

garnes · July 2003

Maybe they could at least have better tires offered as an option. I know, they have these cars pretty much optioned out except for tranny choice and colors.

obiwan · July 2003

I bet they'll put decent tires on this car. I doubt Lutz will let the "flagship" of Pontiac ride on regular passenger car tires.

Though I imagine the selection will have a lot to do with what's available in Australia. They will be limited by the needs of factory production.

aviatorman · July 2003

Is there a brochure on the GTO now??

exsedona1 · July 2003

Ahh

The new GTO...

Great...

Wonderful...

Yea...

Import Fighter?

Bling Bling / Cha-Ching @ $33,000.00 ?!!!

Gimmie a break Mate.

I'll stick with my Formula...

montanafan · July 2003

Dealers have a six or eight page brochure available now. Full size one later in the summer they say.

diablo4 · July 2003

GM performance Said they where going to make a high performance GTO.They said when the new corvette comes out it is going to have a different engine.So GM performance said they might put the LS6 engine in the GTO.

diablo4 · July 2003

I was thinking about placing my order too but when I heard the GTO will get hood scoops and there might be a super GTO with more HP I have to wait.

regfootball · July 2003

340hp not enough power for ya?

diablo4 · July 2003

You mean 350hp is not enough.They boost the output to 350 from 340.

diablo4 · July 2003

What do you think will win the GTO or the Mustang.The GTO has 350HP and the Mustang has 390.The GTO is lighter by at least 100 pounds.The cobra goes 0-60 in 4.5 sec. and the GTO goes 0-60 in 5.5 or 5.4 sec. The estimated top speed of the Mustang is 155MPh.The GTO estimated top speed is 175MPH with the Boost to 350Hp.

vcjumper · July 2003

Stock vs. Stock Cobra would be faster easy, but GTO will probably be much more comfortable to live with as a daily driver.

diablo4 · July 2003

Does anyone know how to put a picture in your message.

theiceman · July 2003

you need to use a (very) little html.

Replace the [ and ] with < and > and put the web address (don't forget the quotation marks) where URL is in the following:
[img src="URL"]

Be careful about putting a copyrighted image here. IOW, if you don't own the image, you might want to reconsider posting it here - Edmunds might ...er... disagree and scribble your post. Click on "Member Agreement" in the left hand navigation column on this page and read under "Intellectual Property Rights Of Third Parties".

Better still, just provide us a clickable link to the image. You can do that (again with a little html) using the same rules as above:

[a href="URL"]file or site name[/a]

You can call the file/site anything you want.

For example, here are some links to some really sweet GTO pix. WARNING: These are GIANT high-res jpgs (definitely wallpaper material):

front shot

interior shot

And these images - and more - can be found at:

newagegto.com

Hope this helps

ice

opimax · July 2003

no sun roof??? no auto climate control (for the money?????) 2 out of 2 dealers arrogant and ignorant

. I would sure like to know a lot more about the super GTO before I were to buy this one. I have a G35 coupe that I would be trading (selling) that I basically got to test drive around the block before deciding if I want it after waiting 8 months from deposit. Very hesitant to do that again w/this car and then decide it isn't 110% for me.

Mark

ruski · July 2003

what's wrong with your G35?

riez · July 2003

opimax... I've long thought the best thing to do was never buy a car in its first year. Make sure any 1st-year bugs get worked out and let inventories build on dealer lots to lower price. And never buy a car without a thorough test drive. Can't imagine putting a deposit on something I hadn't driven and then buying it without putting it through its paces first, esp. if it costs $30K+.

Concur with Ruski's question. Is your G35 Coupe an automatic or manual?

opimax · July 2003

I had some issues from day 1 , 2 of them major and make me not like the car. The 1st was repaired 2 weeks ago , a compression rod was replaced to fix a pull to the right. I asked about that the 1st day I had the car , finally at 11k it was fixed. the 2nd is a hesitation that has been felt by the dealer (good dealer btw) but I have been told it is drive train lash and fuel injectors turning completely off then on and a then bounces to the drive train lash. "normal" is just not acceptable for a weekend toy. i have had about 5 other items repaired , treated so poorly by the original dealer. The longer the car is out the more maintenance Infiniti seems to find for us to do, getting expensive, too many trips to the dealer, staggarred tires aren't worth it for the money (too me), over intrusive VDC (too me) which connot be set to my liking or completely off. May little gripes such as radio can't replaced (tied into A/C)and is a Bose, hard to work with, rattles, poor gas mileage , poor communications from corporate hq, soft paint, after market not as supported as expected. There are more but hat is enough for now. It is a much nicer car than I make it out but it doesn't fit me like glove, some people it does. I would rather have a slightly larger car for more room inside also. Oh, another big reason is due to the placement of the gas tank i can't get a hitch to take my bike w/me on long trips, that is a big, big deal (to me). I believe that their is a bike rack for the Holden Maranaro already

Mark

riez · July 2003

Stopped by my local Pontiac dealer and picked up the brochure. Surprised there weren't more photos of the entire car in the picture, esp. full side photo.

Minuses:

- NO side airbags. (This wipes it out for me.)
- POOR 55/45 weight distribution!!!
- No mention of EBD or Brake Assist
- Manual tranny a Tremec
- Standard 6-disc in-dash CD. (Prefer single in-dash.)
- Poor instrumentation (only speedo, tach, coolant temp, & fuel gauge
- Small tires (P225/50-R17 W)
- Small trunk--9 cubic feet
- Low headroom--37.3 inches (and there is no mention of any available sunroof and none shown in any photo)
- Cloth seats not available
- Stereo controls down low and climate controls up high
- No mention of Xenon HID headlights (std or optional)

Pluses:

- 6-speed manual close ratio transmission
- Limited Slip Differential!!!
- Fully independent rear suspension!!!
- 350 hp (@ 5200 rpms) and 365 lb-ft (@4000 rpms)
- 3.46:1 final drive ratio
- W speed-rated tires
- Traction Control (for winter snowbelt driving) and standard ABS
- Dual exhaust with twin converters, resonators and mufflers
- Front & rear stabilizer bars
- Analog gauges
- Machine-drilled floor pedals
- Manual adjustable lumbar for driver and passenger
- NO brown interior
- Interesting interior colors
- Daytime running lights
- Steering wheel mounted stereo controls
- Front & rear adjustable headrests

Acceptable:

- Claims 0-60 mph in "the mid-fives"
- 18 gallon fuel tank (20+ would be better)
- Decent standard equipment including tilt-telescopic steering wheel, cruise control, AC, remote keyless entry, computer driver information center, and fog lights
- Tasteful standard alloy wheels

Unknown:

- No mention of top speed
- No discussion of brake size or whether rear brakes are vented
- No discussion of individual gear ratios
- No mention of whether it needs premium fuel

andys120 · July 2003

if somewhat contradictory...

-I drove 40 years without side airbags. I'm more interested in a car that will keep me out of trouble, as IMO most GTO-intenders would be.

-Is there any V8 powered sedan that does much better than 55/45, which sounds no worse than say a Mustang?

-no EBD, Brake assist? Do you want to drive the car or have the car drive you?

-Poor instrumentation, indeed by my standards but no worse than many modern cars. Us old time sports car guys want to see oil-temp & press as well as voltage/amps.

-Small tires, indeed but those of us who remember skinny tires and how easy it was to get them to slide will tell ya a skinny-tired rwd is all the fun there is.

-18 gallons, that has to be a joke!

-Hopefully the front discs @ least are vented.

- I can't imagine they'll recommend regular, IIRC
Corvettes want premium.

-Don't know what your problem is with the Tremec.
it's supposed to be superior to the Borg Warner for a 'Stang.

-IRS will be a big selling point against Mustangs.

-Top speed? C,mon! (maybe you will need those side bags after all)

Above comments all in good fun, folks.

garnes · July 2003

Just a comment/question. The GTO engine has been upgraded before it's debut and from reading how the torque curve was fattened an average of 5% over the originally planned 340 Hp 360 torque engine, I wonder if the GTO engine will actually produce a bit more power than the standard Corvette engine. Yes, the HP is the same and the torque is +5 for the GTO, but I also got the impression that the torque curve may be fatter overall than a standard Corvette. Hard to say though - it's just a guess.

I think it's possible with the GTO being pretty limited at first, it's heavier than a Corvette and the new Corvette engine is just around the corner. So I think it's possible.

If you want a sunroof or side air bags - just wait a year of two I guess. I'm sure these will arrive. I admit they should be at least available. Oh well.

One thing I hope it has is a that those back seats fold down. It doesn't seem to be a biggie to add and it is a GREAT feature for any car with a back seat. I really hope they didn't leave this out.

riez · July 2003

andys120... Do keep in mind that I drive a '98 540i 6-speed. 155 mph top speed (electronically limited). 52/48 weight distribution. 26 mpg cruising at 74 mph. Decent interior & trunk room.

I'm considering the GTO as a possible MY05 purchase. But would also compare that to a CPO '02/'03 540i6. I want powerful V8, 6-speed manual, IRS, and room for 4. 2- or 4-doors not an issue for me.

I don't see anything wrong with wanting high performance and outstanding safety features. Want to protect myself, wife, and my two pre-teen kids. My 540i6 has 8 airbags and great crash test results (e.g., it is a "Best Pick" from IIHS). The new GTO should at least have the now ubiquitious 4 front airbags.

The calendar year is 2003. The model year is 2004. This isn't 1964 or 1969. And the price is over $30,000. Hyundai Sonatas have standard side airbags. Toyota Camrys have Brake Assist. Tons of cars have EBD. ABS, EBD, and BA can all significantly improve braking performance and efficiency.

Wonder if the battery is in the trunk? That would help weight distribution.

Too bad GM/Holden couldn't get Getrag 6-speed transmission and Brembo brakes. (I can dream, can't I?)

Forgot to mention some more "Unknowns":

- Does it have a decent overdrive (say .75:1 or numerically lower) to boost top speed, relaxed high speed cruising, and economy)
- What is the highway fuel economy rating? Hope it is at least 27 mpg.
- Does the small trunk at least use the space-saving multi-link trunk hinges?

One more Minus:

- Seatbelts appear not to have pretensioners
- Likely standard GM 3/36 warranty

Some other "Pluses":

- No computer interface system (e.g., BMW's iDrive)
- Clean styling
- Appears to avoid lots of electronic gimmicks (e.g., rain sensing windshield wipers)

theiceman · July 2003

I had read top speed of 155+ and sub 13.5 quarter miles.

I agree with Andy about the fore-aft weight ratio - while it's obviously not ideal, I personally think 55/45 for a V8 is quite decent.

I also don't consider 225/50/17s to be small tires - perhaps a tad small for a V8 performance car weighing 3700 lbs. I'd like something wider in the back but, if you're going to drive it year-round, 225-17s are a good compromise.

Eagerly waiting...

ice

riez · July 2003

theiceman... While the brochure gives a lot of dimensions (e.g., overall length is 189.8 inches and wheelbase is 109.8 inches), it does not mention weight.

P225/50-R17 W are TOO NARROW! Many family sedans ride on tires this wide! Should be at least P235/45s. Heck, even the lowly and much lighter and less powerful FWD Hyundai Tiburon 6-speed manual uses P215/45R17.

But a hoped for plus: Tires NOT run flats!!!

riez · July 2003

davbo... Thanks. But this 6-speed gearing news seems terrible.

First and second seem numerically too low. But should be able to 60 mph in 2nd for maximum 0-60 mph time. Too bad 5th isn't direct drive (1:1) and 1-4 made numerically higher. No need for 2 overdrive gears. But at least the 0.57 6th should allow a great top speed, relaxed highway cruising, and great highway fuel economy.

Ratio Data for 6-speed:

1st= 2.97 x 3.46 = 10.28 overall
2nd= 2.07 x 3.46 = 7.16
3rd= 1.43 x 3.46 = 4.95
4th= 1.00 x 3.46 = 3.46
5th= 0.84 x 3.46 = 2.91
6th= 0.57 x 3.46 = 1.97

Pulled out some old material on my much-missed '97 Camaro--3800 V6, 5-speed manual with Performance Pkg (LSD, 4-wheel disc brakes, and bigger tires). She rode on P235s. The V8s rode on P245s.

I can't believe Pontiac thinks P225s are wide enough. For a widetrack Pontiac???

theiceman · July 2003

I won't defend 225s (although my Bonneville is shod in 225-55-17s) because, in the end, I agree that a 225 is not a musclecar tire.

I will say, however, that I wouldn't want too large a contact patch when driving in deep puddles, slush or (heaven forbid) snow.

On the dry, 245-18s (or larger) would be sweet but that's not all we drive on now is it?

ice

ruski · July 2003

my friend, a big Mustang fan, swears by Tremec

riez · July 2003

I'll be happier about tires as long as....

1. They are NOT run flats.
2. They are NOT all season.
3. They are truly high performance (e.g., Michelin Pilot Sports).

Bit surprised the brakes are only 11.7 front and 11.3 rear. Seem a bit small, given the weight and engine output.

Not sure what the new GTO really compares to. Think it is much more sophisticated than the old Camaro/Firebird (which didn't have IRS). Maybe a "poor man's" M3? A "blue-collar man's" G35 coupe 6-speed? I'm thinking it is more a successor in spirit to the '94-'96 Chevrolet Impala SS.

Pulled out some material I saved from my former beloved '96 Impala SS. She weighed 4036 pounds. She rode P255/50ZR17 tires (BF Goodrich Comp T/A). Top speed of 142 mph (drag limited). 3.08:1 final drive w/LSD (3.06 first gear and 0.70 4th gear). Brakes were 12.0 x 1.0 vented disc front and back. And she "only" had 260 hp (@ 5000 rpms) and 330 lb-ft (@ 3200 rpms).

Pontiac GTO

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