Pontiac GTO

qbrozen · August 2003

true 'nuf.

midwesttrader · August 2003

I've contacted Ron Pauley. Maybe he can work some magic for me. BTW - I made sure to tell him about your kind words.

riez · August 2003

valhs... Not sure you can generalize much from experience in the foreign market. It is still a different car in different environment. For example, how will it hold up on our roads in our weather? Australia has nothing like America's winters.

I hope it works, but if history is any guide, the odds are stacked against it. Remember the Mercury Capri? Mercury's answer to the Miata. Thinking it came out around 1990. Was an Australian Ford. Bombed in US market. Remember the Merkur XR4ti? Came out around 1984 and died a slow death about 1988. It didn't do so well. Heavily modified from a wonderful Ford of Europe product. Then Merkur Scorpio, another Ford of Europe transplant, bombed even quicker. This list of less than great transplants includes a horde of Mitsu transplants rebadged as Plymouths and Dodges. Opel LeMans (really a Daweo). Isuzus and Suzukis rebadged as Chevrolets (and later Geos). Chevy to do this again in near future. And more.

So few have succeeded. Only two I can think of were the Ford Fiesta in the late 1970s (and it was killed off quickly in USA to make room for mediocre American-designed/produced Escort) and the Mercury Capri from the mid-1970s (based on the classic Ford of Europe car).

qbrozen · August 2003

I was just thinking about that very point on my way home today .... the one about being just a larger vette. And that made me think that maybe $33-$35K aint such a bad price in comparison. (but I won't plunk down .... yet)

High 12s with good tires? That's pretty damned quick.

Out of curiosity, anyone know numbers for a recent vette (non-Z06)? I looked at motor trend real quick but couldn't sift through all the nonsense. I'm sure I could find it somewhere, but this is easier.

I'm wondering how much of a difference we're talking about.

qbrozen · August 2003

Geez.... most of those sucked! And those that had anything to offer were so unknown that nobody would risk taking a chance on them.

Not nearly the same as reviving an American classic. (we'll avoid T-bird references and hope that is no indication)

qbrozen · August 2003

That blue is painful to look at. I need shades. Look like nice seats, though.

What car is that in the last pic?

riez · August 2003

davbo... You wrote, "I'm guessing you're a glass half empty guy." I'm more a "trust/hope, but verify". I don't believe hype. Proof is in the results. I can't wait to see the American results done using real full production cars (not prototypes or Australian cars). The ingredients look good (5.7L V8, 6-speed manual, IRS, LSD, etc.) but the chef has to put them together well.

Great example is the Mercury Marauder. Looked good on paper. Hype made it look like it had a lot going for it. But once the testing started, the mediocrity stood out. Failing in the marketplace.

[Some transplants shouldn't have failed. Cousin of mine had an '85 Merkur XR4ti. A potentially great car that just lacked decent follow-up improvement.]

andys120 · August 2003

was really styled by Italians they must have been some school kids. It sure doesn't look like Pininfarina, Italdesign or Ghia etc.

trishield · August 2003

The GTO should be fine in North American winters.

When Lutz approved this project, all models of the car (Chevrolet Lumina SS/Holden Monaro/Pontiac GTO) recieved a redesigned interior with materials that can stand below zero temperatures.

As for history, well, those are all no name cars. This is the new Pontiac GTO, it has a legendary name and a lot of good specs going for it, it's also the same type of car as the original (powerful, comfortable, coupe).

If it provides the performance, it will be purchased, especially at the $33k price which is a bargain compared to the loaded F-bodies GM was selling not so long ago.

trishield · August 2003

Here's a review of the Monaro when it debuted as a new model over a year ago,

http://www.autospeed.com/A_1381/cms/article.html

It's from AutoSpeed, an Australian car mag.

The car has underwent some changes since then, and the GTO is further tweaked here and there over the Chevrolet/Holden flavors, I wonder how much more refined GM has made it for North America?

andys120 · August 2003

Thanks for that Trishield. The comments about the roarty nature of the drivetrain and the bouncy ride on poor roads reminded me more of my old Mustang 5-Liter ('86 ragtop), than of my old GTO ('70 also a ragtop)which was quite a smooth rider if a bit noisy (as muscle convertibles inevitably are).

trishield · August 2003

Sorry in advance if these were posted earlier,

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=6&article_- id=234&page_number=1

http://www.autoweek.com/search/search_display.mv?port_code=autowe- ek&cat_code=coverstory&content_code=09579140&Search_T- ype=STD&Search_ID=1458704&record=26

The second review is about the first model year Monaro, which has a completely different Australian spec interior. The Lumina, Monaro and GTO have an all new and improved interior designed for severe cold weather climates. Not to mention it looks much better style, quality and material wise.

Some more blurbs,

http://www.motortrend.com/future/concepts/112_0110holden/index.ht- ml

http://www.motortrend.com/future/concepts/112_0202_gto/index.html

http://www.motortrend.com/future/concepts/112_0212_holden/index.h- tml

I hope GM saw fit to refine the car's noise and ride quality for the North American market, the consensus seems to be it's a bit too rough to be a premium coupe.

montanafan · August 2003

My reading of the GTO advance order program press releases, is that Pontiac is attempting to provide dealers with the needed info to cure the limited car blues. Dealers should know at least thier first 6 months allotment. Also when the orders are accepted by Pontiac they would be given target production weeks, that is what your salesman was talking about. I think I read that Pontiac told the dealers to figure three months from production to dealership. But your boat theory makes sense. Could be three months for the car in the bow but a lot less for the last car on the stern. I also think I heard that the dealers are suppose to (or atleast can) register the buyers who have ordered a car with Pontiac. This way Pontiac can stay in contact with them during their wait. Check with your dealers about this, to see if I have read correctly.

riez · August 2003

Where is the GTO's battery? Is it in the trunk to help weight distribution? When I look at weight distribution, I'm comparing the GTO to cars like the BMW 3 & 5 Series, Lincoln LS, etc. Check out their weight distributions.

regfootball · August 2003

or, as when i owned my thunderbird, just put a couple sacks of concrete in the trunk for winter and that maybe brought the weight dist back to 57/43......

riez · August 2003

Battery location is indicative of how much GM/Holden have sweat the details. Little things like locating the battery in the trunk, etc. to improve weight distribution can make a world of difference. GTO needs to be about more than just straightline performance. It is a MY 2004. Not a MY 1964.

vahls... I just mentioned some examples of "lesser" 4-door sedans that locate the battery in the trunk as part of a serious attempt to achieve near 50/50 balance. I could've mentioned some coupes. Maybe even a few wagon (540i sport wagon is exactly 50.0/50.0).

riez · August 2003

davbo... If the GTO is not all about serious all around high performance, then you are right. Maybe I am expecting too much from GM. But having owned a '96 Impala SS and a '97 Camaro and having about $3K in GM credit card rebate points, I'd bet GM thinks I'm in their target market. (They'd be right.) I'm not interested in just looking good. Or impressing others; I doubt a Pontiac is really going to impress anyone too much. So that just leaves wanting it for the performance. (I'm off tonight to test drive an IS300. Wife looking for a new car to replace her 323ia. IS300 is a good all around performer.)

andys120 · August 2003

Davbo, you are probably unaware that the peace keeping task in Afghanistan has been turned over to NATO including, you guessed it, Germany and France.

I don't see where G&F "did" anything to us in Iraq except refuse to believe some...ah...exaggerations about WMDs.
-------------------------------------------------
The whole thing about battery location has been blown out of proportion. The battery in the trunk technique was used often but not always back in the day before modern suspensions and tires made weight distribution less critical.
Still there were a lot of good handling sports cars and sedans that didn't have trunk-mounted batteries.

I can't think of any V8 sedans that have even approached a 50/50 balance.

riez · August 2003

andys120... You might look at the numbers for the Lincoln LS8 and BMW 540i. They are around 52/48. Don't know about Lexus LS430 or MB E class. Thinking the Cadillac CTS V6 is near 50/50 and that the upcoming high performance CTS LT1 V8 is shooting to get as close to that as possible (possibly around 52/48).

qbrozen · August 2003

Let's see.... 5 lb. battery in a 3300 lb. (guessing average) car .... that equates to a less than 3-tenths of a percent difference in weight distribution. Blow out of proportion? Yeah, I'd have to agree.

btw, the amount of gas you carry around will make a much larger difference than that.

nas43 · August 2003

I currently drive a 98 GTP that I factory ordered. Even though I love my GTP, I have been looking at Audi A4s and BMW 3's for the last 6 months just because I'm ready for something different. I have test driven the A4 3.0, 1.8T, 325i, and 330i. The 330i was fun to drive but was not as impressive as I thought it would be. I was close to getting the BMW though, when I started reading about the GTO. 350 hp, loud V8 dual exhaust sound, mid 5's 0-60, limited number produced, $2500 in GM card dollars to apply, game over. I ordered my Torrid Red 6-speed GTO this morning.

riez · August 2003

qbrozen... It is all about getting the small things right. Not cutting corners. Going the extra mile. Sound cliche but is true. If you don't do the small things well, do you do the big things well? Just look at the small tire size it is projected to use. They go to all the trouble with engine and transmission but give you Buick LeSabre-like tire size?

I'm praying GM/Holden sweat the details over the life of the GTO. I'd like to use my $3,000 in GM credit card rebates. Maybe in '05 it'll get side airbags. And wider tires. Maybe a more comprehensive gauge package (like was in the old Camaro). Then I'm there.

Notice I bought a '96 Impala SS? That was the only year it had a tachometer and the floor-mounted shifter. Those should've been standard when it came out. Lots of people and reviewers noticed the omissions. Or look at the Fiero mess. Took years before they got it right and then they killed it. Is it asking too much for GM to get it right out of the chute?

ruski · August 2003

made us look like fools instead of putting joint pressure on Saddam.

andys120 · August 2003

you're flying a Russian flag, Russki. Well Putin didn't exactly bust Saddam either. We're slightly off topic.

qbrozen · August 2003

I get your point. I just think we are harping a bit too much on it. I have never found a perfect car (if any of us had, we would never need to set foot in a dealership again and wouldn't even be chatting here). There are always small things that could have been done better. I have dual horns on my T5 that are mounted right in front of the intercooler. One of the first things anybody modding the car does is relocate those horns. But just because they are located there in stock form doesn't mean the car is a poorly executed POS. My simple suggestion is to relocate the battery if that is what floats yer boat.

I am, however, against whimpy tires on a performance car. We'll see what it actually comes with, though. I'm willing to bet they will be adequate for street driving (very few cars come with racing tires stock).

andys120 · August 2003

I'll say it again. Inadequate tires is the easiest thing to fix on an otherwise worthwhile automobile. You'd be amazed at how many high-dollar Germans come in with mediocre Continental tires. It didn't take me long to switch me Audi to better tires.

Good post Gbrozen. At $36k optioned out the new Goat is bound to have some flaws.

andys120 · August 2003

Just reinforces my point. You don't get the world for $33k.

regfootball · August 2003

I think the new BMW 5 series will have an even 50/50 weight dist. w/ v8. The CTSv is 52/48 which amazed me, however the car is a porker at 3800+ pounds. With a 400hp mill though, I don't think it matters much how heavy the car is

. Automobile's review of the CTSv basically said the car will handle like other Germans can't, exclusive of the Mcars. I must tip my hat to GM, the CTSv looks like the real deal. Except for the cheap plastic of course, LOL.

Maybe the next GTO should spawn off the CTS platform.

andys120 · August 2003

platform." Maybe not, I wouldn't want to pay nearly 50k for a Pontiac

regfootball · August 2003

So I suppose you'd rather they get some garbage platform like an old Camaro with a live axle rear to go with your old sixties musclecar?

The CTS is not 50 grand because it cost them that much to make. Its 50 grand because that's what people will pay for it.

The CTS tweaks that made it the CTSv are

-off the shelf corvette motor
-brakes from brembo, already designed
-suspension upgrades which don't cost much to change
-minor cosmetic changes

The basic car is so close otherwise to a stock CTS. The interior is the same except for some suede and aluminum. Anything else the car has new is either supplied by a vendor, or pulled from the vette. The new parts GM had to develop are minimal or inconsequential. The basci structure, body, hard points and safety systems (the costly items) are all intact.

Give credit to GM here......take a motor from eseentially a 25k Camaro, stuff it in an already designed chassis, tweak a few suspension and brake items, some intake plumbing, add fancy wheels and suede on the seat cushions and mark it up 15 grand. Bravo.

GM should mass produce the CTSv, they'd sell 100k of them easy.

nas43 · August 2003

Only I'll probably be doing this until January. My build week is not until 10/27.

riez · August 2003

valhs... What can you really talk about when no one yet owns one? Or has even driven one? Or has even sat in one? Or has even seen one in the flesh? Only after all of this happens will the talk become meaningful!!! Till then, it is all mostly hot air. (And I can't wait to read the published test results.)

obiwan · August 2003

... I'm glad I don't have the type of obsessive-compulsive disorder that a few of y'all have.

I've lived all over the country and travelled all over the world. I've discovered one immutable truth. Some people aren't happy unless they can find something to complain about. Nothing is ever good enough. Nothing ever meets their standards.

Well I for one couldn't care less if a few neurotic people don't like the GTO. So it doesn't have this do-dad or the "perfect weight distribution" for all the "racing" I'm sure y'all do. (yes, that was sarcasm...)

I for one applaud GM for the move they have made. Lutz has started to turn the behemoth around. Unfortunately, like a Ford Excursion, the bureaucracty at GM won't turn on a dime. It will take time to get from where GM is now to where we all want them to be and I applaud this new move. So what if it isn't perfect the first time out of the chute? Rome wasn't built in a day.

So go ahead and tilt at your windmills and beat your chest as you rant about minutia. I for one am going to purchase a GTO and enjoy it. It's going to be better than any performance car Pontiac has ever sold. Even if it's no better than the Monaro in handling, it will still out perform anything Pontiac has ever put on the street. And it's well within the straight line performance class of the retired F-body. For it's very reasonable price of $33K, I'll enjoy it. I'll have fun tossing into the corners and scooting up to highway speeds or passing on two lane roads. Because I'm not stupid enough to street race but still enjoy some competition now and again, I may even take mine to a track once in a while just for fun. I know I won't be the fastest one there but I'm still going to have a faster than average, drivable, enjoyable coupe for a very reasonable price. Anyone who feels the same is welcome to join me.

The rest of you can do what it is you do so well. Sit in front of your computers yelling back and forth about equipment lists and numbers on paper, never knowing the true thrill of the visceral experience that driving can be.

riez · August 2003

obiwan... Think most of us can't wait to actually see one in the flesh. Sit in one. Take one for a thorough test drive. Read automotive reviews. See their test data and review impressions. Too bad that is all in the future. Only time will tell. Till then there is only speculation and commentary on what GM is telling the world.

obiwan · August 2003

To me, the drivel printed in the car rags has as much relevance to me as professional movie critics telling me which films they like. That is, absolutely none.

For many years, I have completely rejected the writings of most automotive "journalists". They are all biased in one way or another. For example, I saw a magazine that will not be named that criticized the "outdated, boxy styling" of the Jeep Cherokee while in the same issue praising the "aggressive, angular styling" of the new Mercedes G-Wagon. This same rag had musings by the editorial staff about how cars have improved in their predictability and road manners while lamenting the loss of the "fun factor" of taking a 60's road car to it's limits IN THE SAME ISSUE. Their road test times are frequently different than real world results by real world drivers on tracks around the country.

Most reviews of cars are little more than biased op-ed pieces written by people who only like one kind of car. I did a little experiment with myself and wrote down the order I though a magazine would rate 10 family sedans. I got every one right without reading the article. I tried the same with another rag with the same results. And no, the lists were not the same. I just understood the bias of the particular editorial staff.

If all you care about is the published test times and other useless numbers in magazines, perhaps you need to consider not only another car but an entirely different brand.

It is not humanly possible for me to care less what some self proclaimed "expert" says about a car. It is no different than the movie critic raving about the latest obscure art film that puts me to sleep in 10 minutes.

I like to think for myself. As a result, I don't evaulate every vehicle as if it should be a race car on the track.

My GTO will see little or no track time. In fact, it will be rare to see me pushing this car to it's limits since doing so will surely get me all sorts of unwanted attention from law enforcement. Sure, I'll goose it frome a stoplight once in a while and maybe take a fast corner now and again. I might be tempted to find a winding country road and push it a little when passing slow traffic but that's about it. As a result, there are many other things that are far more important to me than skid pad G force ratings and slalom times. Still, I will enjoy this car. Why? Because it's better than average and the monthly payment won't be anywhere near as much as my mortgage, not to mention the other cars in it's class.

riez · August 2003

obiwan... You wrote, "I will enjoy this car. Why? Because it's better than average".

Not sure if that is damning with faint praise (though that depends on what the "average" is), but maybe you might know a lot more after actually driving (and later owning) one?

Never have understood some people's hatred of the automotive press. Warts, biases and all, they still serve a valuable purpose. If they didn't, places like Edmunds wouldn't be around.

obiwan · August 2003

What purpose do they serve? To provide me with lining paper for the bird cage? Maybe emergency supplies when I have nothing left to wipe with?

I only came to Edmunds to get invoice pricing on cars. I couldn't care less what they think of those cars because they are not me. They do not base their opinions on the same foundation as I do. Even the peformance numbers in the magazines are questionable. Mustangs and Camaros getting 6+ second 0-60 times?!? AWD cars doing 5K+ drops to get the acceleration times down, all the while knowing that no one in their right mind would do that to a daily driver because the drivetrain will disintegrate after a dozen or so launches like that.

These magazines serve only one purpose. To give the couch racers something to talk about.

And as for knowing about the car, I have talked with people who do own Monaros. I have heard first hand accounts about how well they do on the road. The comfort levels, the handling prowess, the acceleration capabilities in the real world. Considering the average car on the road (the 4 door passenger cars like Camrys, Accords, etc.), the Monaro is better. And considering the short lead time on producing the GTO, I refuse to believe that there will be dramatic differences between the Monaro and the GTO. The most significant being the moving of the gas tank and the slight increase in power from the engine.

bigdaddycoats · August 2003

the first shipment of GTOs has arrived in L.A. Some GM executives drove some of them from California back to GM offices in Michigan. A friend of mine drove one last week and loved it. He is not crazy about the exterior design but thought the transmission was smooth as butter, the car sounded great and was very fast.

riez · August 2003

bigdaddycoats... Which transmission? 6-speed manual or 4-speed automatic? (I'm assuming the former.)

b4z · August 2003

We aren't supposed to post links to other forums.

ruski · August 2003

really?

b4z · August 2003

I am already a member there.

We can post links to other sites but not to forums and message boards.

Can't blame edmund's, can you?
They are putting a lot of time and money into this.

Eventually the moderator will get around to deleting posts starting at about #287 and finishing up with this one.

Kirstie_H · August 2003

Excellent prediction

b4z · August 2003

Click on her highlighted username and email her directly with that question.
That is the best way to handle Townhall questions.
It always works for me.

Kirstie_H · August 2003

This discussion is a place to talk about the 04 GTO, not Town Hall policies or host decisions. Please e-mail me directly with questions about the membership agreement, or read it here: http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/memberagreement.html

Back to the GTO!

obiwan · August 2003

...anyone hear about this new car GM is releasing under the Pontiac brand? It's called the GTO and it's based on an Australian car, the Holden Monaro.

Looks pretty cool. What do y'all think?

Kirstie_H · August 2003

As promised, a load of off-topic posts have been deleted. Questions and comments on a 3x5 postcard directly to the host. Winner will be selected at random from all entries. Thank you for playing, and back to the GTO.

b4z · August 2003

'68-70 hood scoops. A gille in the lower front fender. and WIDER tires will make it about perfect.

Other than that it looks like a winner.

An engine tuned for torque and a exhaust system to go with it will be it's main selling point.

obiwan · August 2003

Who else is tired of "retro cues" in cars? I like to see evolved, 21st century designs. I actually like it without hood scoops. I like the grille too.

But yea, a "modern" design should include wider tires. However, that's easy to change.

b4z · August 2003

There are always heritage cues in any new car.
That's why a Chevrolet is identifiable as a Chevrolet and a Pontiac as a Pontiac.

Pontiac GTO

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