Pontiac GTO

05midblue · August 2005

See Robert's posts a while back.

I think I'm going to be sick.

elias · August 2005

herzdawg007, i hope your post is in jest . if you are for real, i think your dad is nuts and/or is trying to get rid of you. did he take out a huge life insurance policy on you?
if you are actually the 1 kid out of a million who is responsible enough for a car like this, ok, more power & torque to you - you go, it's your birthday. woo hoo!
but i hope your post is a joke and that no actual parent is so irresponsible as you jest!. if you were responsible enough to have a GTO you'd also know to trade it for the slowest volvo available to increase chances of making it to age 21 ! and your dad might learn a thing or two from you if you were to do that! best regards & wishes, and forget about the speakers, pay attention to the road, you need to concentrate. look at me when i'm talkin to ya, son!

exalteddragon1 · August 2005

your gonna be the reason everyone else pays so much insurance on their GTO's

just kidding, having rich parents is a blast im sure. have fun driving richie rich.

anyone remember that cartoon?

hammen2 · August 2005

Elkii, there's a gentleman by the name of Chris White (a/k/a GTPprix), a writer for a Pontiac-specific magazine, who has cracked the cluster and can do all sorts of things with it. For example, there is a shift indicator light which Pontiac decided not to turn on - well, thanks to Chris, on my A4, at 5800 rpm it beeps to tell me to manually shift (or let off the gas to let the auto shift for me). I also have the HSV logo (instead of the Pontiac one) on at startup, and a message from my wife (and our anniversary date) on the dash when the car is off. Chris can disable the DRL indicator, play with the brightness of the cluster, et. al. - Google and see if you can find his posts on other message boards.

I'm presently in Valencia, CA and thus a bit behind in replying to posts, sorry...

--Robert

hammen2 · August 2005

Make sure your dealer puts a SPAC case (Service Parts something case) on your parts order. This is tied to your VIN and basically means, should any other Pontiac dealer in the U.S. have the parts you need in stock, they are required to send them to your dealer.

--Robert

hammen2 · August 2005

Sure your car isn't rubbing the tires against the struts? This is rampant on higher-mileage '04's and is due to alignment issues.

Search back a few posts for the proper alignment specs. Have your dealer check and then align per those specs (got them from a dealer who got them from TAC - tell them to call TAC and ask for the revised GTO alignment specs to help prevent strut rub, should they not believe you).

Hope this helps,

--Robert

hammen2 · August 2005

I hear great things about Sewell in Dallas - would be surprised if they couldn't help you get your alarm sorted out.

--Robert

hammen2 · August 2005

Can't order an '05 any longer - last one was built back in early July. '06 assembly should start soon. I seem to recall that you can't order the hood scoop delete for '06, but not sure about that.

DMS (Dublin Motor Sports, in Dublin, CA) was breaking up the 2005 SAP packages and selling front, rear, and/or side fascias separately. I know they come in three colors (black, red, ???) as well as unpainted - not sure what color you are looking for.

--Robert

hammen2 · August 2005

You need to remove the door panels to replace the door speakers. Not TOO terrible, just be careful with the door lock buttons/little red ferrules (I stripped one of mine and waited over a month for the part to make its journey from Oz on a slow boat). If you email me (address in my profile) I can send you the link on door panel removal.

You should also replace the rear panel speakers. I used Kenwood Excelons for both, 6 1/2"ers, and they work and sound great. The stockers were just such absolute junk.

Getting at the rear panel speakers involves taking out your entire rear seat, as well as trim going up to the sill plates. It's about 5 more minutes of work to get at the subwoofers on the rear deck - by all means, take this time, and replace those, too (need a free-air 6 1/2" design - I got a pair of Goldwoods from parts-express.com for something ridiculous like $27 shipped - they sound AMAZING compared to the crap that Holden installed).

Hope this helps,

--Robert

mustang_svt · August 2005

Just dropped the car off last night for a re-look today. I was worried that they were going to give me the dreaded "eye-roll" and write me off as another anal customer who "hears" something. I was pleasantly surprised when two service writers got together with me to discuss the problem. They remembered me from the last visit and acknowledged that something was there. One checked the computer and noted that the TSB for rear axle retaining bolts had not been performed on my car, and that is their plan for today. If those bolts are in the process of backing themselves out, would that make a clanking sound on certain bumps? These guys were telling me that a customer from another dealer had his bolts come all the way out resulting in a departure of the axle from the car. I can't imagine that car will ever be quite the same.

white6 · August 2005

I've got a problem with my 04 A4 that, perhaps, someone here could shed some light on. After about a month I started having a real coarse vibration at idle in "D." Also caused a resonance inside the car; kind of like a low bass note that just vibrates the whole car. I can bring the car just off idle and it smooths out. Dealer hung some weights off the rear exhaust system to try and dampen out the vibration (in other words, tried to cover up the symptom rather than fix the problem, big shock, huh?). First they said they would have the regional tech rep come by and take a look. Next day they told me the problem wasn't worth his time :mad: . So I picked up the car, brought it home and filed with BBB. Hopefully after filing for lemon-law buy-back/exchange they will think it's worth their trouble. I was able to get ahold of a take-off GTO exhaust system to swap out with mine. Made no difference, which tells me that the problem probably isn't with the exhaust system. Anybody here have any clue? BTW, I've taken it to the dealer three times to fix this now.........

kevm14 · August 2005

Just be patient and give the engine time to break in. It should smooth out.

dburger66 · August 2005

I have a '05 that so far has been great. :shades: I just have one small problem, there is a very pronounces growl when my a/c compressor cycles on. There is also a noise at idle that sounds an awful lot like belt noise. Could these two be related and has anyone else had this problem? Thanks!

tayl0rd · August 2005

Sounds like either a torque converter problem or a problem with your idle speed while in gear. Basically, the car is still trying to pull while you've got your foot on the brake. Normally, the torque converter should slip enough to smooth that out, but if it's a problem with your idle speed, it's still loading up the transmission while you've got your foot on the brake.

Next time it happens, lift off the brake lightly to see if the car surges forward. If it does, then your problem probably lies in one of those two areas. What's your idle speed when it's in Park? I'm sort of leaning toward the torque converter.

prguy77 · August 2005

Robert,

Haven't settled on a color yet, most likely black.

I've been watching this forum for a while, and i've learned a lot about the GTO that the road tests don't tell you. You've always been very informative and helpful. Thanks again.

Joe

white6 · August 2005

The idle speed in D is just barely over 500 rpm; probably about 525 rpm. Idle speed in Park is about 650 rpm. Car doesn't really surge forward as I ease off the brake; just a normal creep. It's almost like a switch is being flipped when I come to a stop. Idle will be fine for just a second, and then it will fall into the "grumble."
BTW, the car is just short of 5,000 miles.....

tayl0rd · August 2005

Hmmm...

That's a pretty low idle, but I don't know if that's normal for an LSx engine or not. Most cars idle in Park between 750 and 850 RPM. Personally, I would think your idle speed is too low and, from the sounds you describe, it seems like the engine is nearing stall speed when you're on the brake.

Next test; apply the brake while in gear and slowly press the gas. How high does your RPM go before the car feels like its pushing against the brakes?

I would say ask the folks in the GTO Problems & Solutions board what their idle speeds are. Maybe your ECU needs to be programmed to bump the idle speed up by a couple hundred RPM.

What has your service department said?

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

My 2005 GTO idles at 500 RPM in Drive as well "Automatic Transmission" and it drives fine.

sputterguy · August 2005

Why would a vibration just go away?

white6, keep taking it back and keep pushing them on it. There is so little dealer support for these cars it is ridiculous.

blackflag3 · August 2005

My 05 with Auto Trans also idles at 500 RPM's in Drive and presents no problem
of any nature.

tolenash · August 2005

Becuase youve spun everything up away from the systems natural frequency.

Remember the old opera singer wine glass thing - you let something vibrate near enough to its natural frequency and it could shake it self to pieces. A little above or below, and its enough to be annoying. But once you are significantly far from the natural frequency everyting should be "smooth as silk".

My 04 m6 idles around 600 once warmed up.

Some other things to note when you go back to the dealer - Does the A/C being on have any effect? is the engine at normal operating temp? Is it when you are in D or N? If you let the car roll while in D and idling does it still make a vibration?

elkiii · August 2005

Robert,
Thanks for the info. I'll check it out.

kevm14 · August 2005

Why would a vibration just go away?

Simply because new engines sometimes do funny things, in the NVH, power, and mileage department.

jontyrees · August 2005

I'll second all of Robert's info on relacing speakers. The front door panels come off easily, especially as they are screwed on instead of the sure-to-break poppers on most doors. The door lock button can easily be stripped, and I did break a popper on the little triangular plastic doohickey in the front corner of my passenger side window. I just replaced the front and rear side speakers with middling Blaupunkts that were really cheap online, and left the subs alone. I did experience some bottoming out of the subs yesterday listening to the new 50cent album that my kids bought, but turning the bass control down a bit on the HU fixed it. Replacements would surely help. Whole thing sounds pretty good now, if not ear-splittingly loud.

And such jealousy from the peanut gallery! Wish my dad had bought me a GTO-equivalent for my first car - I only got a 1.0 litre Datsun, but hey....

deathcow · August 2005

interesting stuff, i'll add my 2 cents
Got a 2005 cyclone gray 6 speed in April with 80 miles on it, had the car over 100mph on the test drive, pretty much followed the break in to a tee (Minus the test drive of course). It has been my daily driver and I have over 7,500 miles on it and had no problems, until...

I've had the oil changed twice but the oil life meter never got reset properly and it went off a couple of hundred miles ago. I tried to follow the instructions in the manual to reset the oil meter: with engine off, turn key to ON, slowly push the throttle to the floor twice within five seconds, turn key to lock and you are reset. How hard is that? plenty, I tried many times but could not reset the meter....

this was literally 4 days after my last oil change and saw the mechanic follow the instructions in the book to reset the meter, unfortunately there is no indication that it has been reset other than it is not on any more but if it's not on to begin with...

Anyway, I was out of town and was trying to wait until I got to my local dealer but kept trying to reset the meter. Apparently, I confused the computer into "safety mode, reduced performance." Unfortunately, I was on my way back to a meeting so couldn't do anything about until later, and let me tell you, you do NOT want your car to go into "reduced performance" mode, it should be called "no performance" mode

After my meeting, I was on my way to the closest Pontiac dealer to fix my car. When I re started it, it was no longer in "safety mode" (thank God) but the "check engine" light was on and the oil life meter still hadn't been reset

The service manager at the dealership heard my story and explained to me as we walked to my GTO that in every other GM car, you have to press the gas pedal 3 times in 10 seconds. He didn't even do it slowly, and boop, reset. I showed him the manual and he said he was going to notify GM about the misprint, whatever....my car was reset

The "check engine" light was still on and I was told that the computer will "hang on" to the fault code for approx. 10 engine cycles (warm up- cool down) even if the condition that caused the fault is no longer there. The next morning, the check engine light did not come on and it has been fine ever since.

So human error can be blamed for that problem although confirmation of a successful reset would be wonderful.

As far as the throttle response being sluggish? You bet I've noticed! My car seems to be inconsistent from the line. There has been a time or two when I've taken off and haven't hardly been able to keep my head off the head rest while other times it's like "come on baby, you can go" When the car is cold, it feels most sluggish. It seems the computer program needs some tweaking.

It's all starting to make sense. One thing I have noticed and even told my friends about is that turning off traction control is like unleashing the beast. It felt as though a brake had been released. My assumption now is that the computer reads the acceleration table differently as it behaves as sputterguy described in his test drive, "would chirp the tires when I tapped the throttle."

gas mileage for me has been 14.1mpg at the lowest and 25.5mpg at the highest. A 1500 mile trip that took me through the mountains of WV had an average of 21.9mpg (and believe me, I at least maintained the 70mph speed limit, even up the steepest 5-7% grades)

elias · August 2005

thanks for the SPAC idea, Robert. i mentioned it to the dealer service manager today as he checked the broken seatbelt adjuster. he was noncommittal on whether he would make any of my parts 'spac orders' but he did say the parts would arrive while the car was in body shop next week. so maybe that will work out nicely. one of the newer service reps said no way would they do a spac order for these kind of parts - he made it sound like that was done only when a vehicle was undrivable, or something major was needed. whatever, i'll see how it goes.

preformancenut · August 2005

I am glad they did not produce as many GTO'S as the over produced new Mustang. Who wants to see the car they have in everyone's driveway.

By the way gxpgtodanman, how do you like your GXP my wife loves hers. Turn off the traction control and that car will smoke the tires almost as much as my GTO.

preformancenut · August 2005

i have an 05 6 speed and the best mpg i have hit is 25.5 going 55-60 mph. I do not think you would get over 15 mpg at 90-100 mph. The wind resistance and higher rpm's would limit you.

preformancenut · August 2005

I have a hard time staying off the throttle in my 05 6 speed at age 37 and I have had some fast cars in my day. At age 16 I would have had 10 tickets for wreckless op in the first week if i had not yet wrecked it.

Steve...

preformancenut · August 2005

???} is silver.I ordered the full SAP but was told by my dealer that there were three seperate order numbers for different package's. Since I have midnight blue mine came primered and it cost me $600 to have paint matched, for a total of $3700 for the SAP.

white6 · August 2005

The engine must be warmed up; doesn't do it cold. A/C makes it worse, but it is there without it. And it only does it in D. If I let it roll while in D and just idling it goes away shortly after moving. BTW, I failed to mention that the dealer checked idle speed and said it was to spec.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

Me too, and 66% of those Mustangs are the base V6 and rental ones anyway. Hertz by me always has 3 or 4 at any given time.

It's kind of funny burning the front tires. You better have the windows up otherwise the smoke will come in. I have already stunned quite a few Mustang driver with GXP. I beat one 2 lights in a row and the guy asked what I had done. Nothing, stock from the factory. Don't forget, GXP insurance is lower then Mustang too.

kevm14 · August 2005

That's because the idle speed comes up as speed goes up, even without pressing the gas. It's supposed to do that. Your problem could probably be "fixed" by raising the idle speed a hair, but that sounds more like a bandaid fix. You have the exact same PCM calibration as others who have no problem, so that's the wrong place to look. How many miles does the car have? Under 5000? If so, give it another oil change, like I said before.

blackflag3 · August 2005

I noticed on the GTO's oil filler cap that it says Mobil 1.
I assume that is the prescribed oil to be used in this car and also assume
that it came with this oil. I know that Mobil 1 is more costly than regular oil
and my question is: How often and at what milage should one change the oil under normal driving conditions?
I have been told that this type oil is superior and used in most high performance cars such as the Corvette and is the choice of NASCAR.

hammen2 · August 2005

The 2005's (with the LS2 engine) come factory-filled with Mobil 1 5W30. The 2004's didn't (but I am presently running M1 in mine). Some folks say that the M1 5W30 is a little "light" for the GTO, and that one should use 0W40 or truck-grade 5W30 (thanks, kevm). Others recommend the German Castrol for optimal performance.

I have 5700 miles on my '04 since April 1 (and 3100 on since my last oil change). I kind of wonder at what point I should change as well. I guess I'll be driving the car another 2 1/2 months, so I will probably change it myself sometime soon, and then again before putting it into storage. I bought the 5 gallon jug for around $20 from Wal-Mart, then bought an additional quart for $5 or so. For filters, I would use either the AC Delco or a Wix-based one (i.e. NAPA - a GTO buddy of mine works there so I get his discount :-). I've planned on doing my own changes, but haven't yet due to time issues (I have a huge project at work wrapping up in two weeks... can't wait to have some free time again, other than the 10-minute breaks I take to visit Edmunds :-)

When it comes to motor oils, everyone's got an opinion of what is the best, and how long before changes. Getting a used oil analysis may not be a bad idea. A site I've seen recommended forever, but haven't spent a lot of time exploring, is http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ - might want to check that out.

Hope this helps,

--Robert

kevm14 · August 2005

Some folks say that the M1 5W30 is a little "light" for the GTO, and that one should use 0W40 or truck-grade 5W30

Just to clarify: M1 makes a 0W-40, the "truck-grade" oil I was referring to was M1 Truck & SUV 5W-40 and the 30 weight I recommended was Castrol Syntec Made in Germany 0W-30.

white6 · August 2005

The car has just under 5,000 miles; problem is: it's getting WORSE, not better. I don't believe it's something that is going to go away on it's own. I raised the idle speed 100 rpm using a handheld tuner (50 rpm didn't do it, just created a weird rythmic droning) and got rid of the vibration. But that's just masking the problem. It shouldn't have to idle at over 600 rpm in D. Got my packet from BBB today in the mail. I'll call GM tomorrow and see if they want one more shot at it before I send in the lemon law paperwork.

elias · August 2005

some year i'll get mpg data on a cross-country ~90 or 100mph cruise with the GTO. it has a low drag coefficient so i think it could surely make 23 mpg. with my 89 iroc, 5-spd, short rear gears, i got 28 mpg tank after tank all the way to cali. as for high rpms, the gto engine is loafing at 90 mph in 6th! maybe next summer...

elias · August 2005

i expect the oil change interval with mobil 1 will be 10k miles or more, especially for those doing significant highway driving. imho this is fine, mobil 1 can easily go that long without breaking down. not that i've done an oil analysis, but my logic is that if dino oil can go 7500 miles, mobil 1 can easily go 10k and probably much further. i don't plan on changing the oil until the computer tells me...

elias · August 2005

hey there white6. i'm feelin your pain. i wish i could feel/see/hear your cars vibe myself so i could say something possibly intelligent instead of just surmising something. is it audible too? i wonder if we could hear it via a .wav file? but anyway, here goes, best i can do for now. the problem sounds a lot like what i experienced on a test drive of a 93 Z28 automatic. and again the same thing on the 94 Z28 automatic i bought. the 93 had 4L60 trans, not electronic. the 94 had 4L60E (electronic). for whatever that's worth - because both cars did the same thng. sitting at idle, every second or two each would sort of kick - the car would rock side to side. i mean, the cam profile on the LT1 and the LS2 is not exactly designed for a smooth idle, but the vibe i felt was at a lower frequency than can be accounted for by 600 rpm (10 rps) engine alone.
and this z28 vibe did go away with the car in neutral, so i surmised it did involve the transmission somehow. i don't think it was a resonant frequency / standing wave , but who knows. i just got used to it. also the M6 Z28s had a problem with driveshaft resonant frequency that resulted in a standing wave / vibe at about 70 mph with periodicity of about 1 second. the fix for that was the 1LE aluminum driveshaft, tradeoff was that driveshaft transmitted much more rear gear noise into the cabin.
well ,that's a bunch of info that maybe has no relevance to your car.
my current M6 GTO does not exactly give a silky smooth honda-civic-like idle. again the cam profile is not set for smooth idle. but from the sounds of your posts, your car is doing something funky. any way you & the service manager can compare your car with another a4 gto from the same year ? i recommend taking it slow on the lemon law deal - from what i know of lemon law in some states, you might not have much of a claim - might be tough to prove a rough/loping idle is a driveability problem - some lemon laws require it be all about a 'driveability problem'. i'm no expert on that though, just tellin ya what i've heard & read. well, i hope some of this info could be helpful to you - best wishes.

in other news, more smiles & shouts from other drivers. this time one from a mustang guy who didn't sound real positive! then he accelerated wildly from the traffic signal while i entered the store. lucky for him no cops around. i consider this a downside of the GTO - on multiple occasions other drivers see my car and then drive dangerously - showing off. i do not appreciate that !

gottabgto · August 2005

I was wondering if anyone has any knowledge and/or experience with the driving courses offered at some of the raceways.
I was thinking about maybe taking some - figured it'd be a great way to experience aspects of my GTO that I don't see under normal driving conditions, get a chance to drive on a race course, and to improve my driving skills overall.
Anyone out there done this?
What are others thoughts, advice, etc. on this?
Input appreciated.
Cathy

elias · August 2005

gottabgto, i took a russell racing school class a decade ago - we drove formula fords around laguna seca after a few hours of classroom time. speed limited to 75 mph but that was irrelevant for most of that track! that corkscrew turn is the the 2nd most terrifying thing that i've ever experienced in a car - and that was at maybe 15 or 20 mph - crawling. i dunno where you live but i believe there is a road course training available at lime rock CT - using dodge vipers. i'd advise you to use the racing school's cars to learn how to push a car, instead of beating up your GTO & burning up brakes & tires. but hey, i'm sure you can find a school where you can drive your own car too.

now, how about the GTO plastic thing on the center/top of the dash. what is that thing for? maybe a nav-system goes there on that half of the planet where the water drains counterclockwise? here in the US all that plastic thing does is make for an obnoxious reflection in the windshield. if there were some lower-contrast way to cover it, i'd think about doing that. at first i wondered if there is a storage bin under there and tried to gently pry it up.

05midblue · August 2005

There are already some sweet looking gauge pod add-ons for that ambiguous piece of plastic. I can't seem to remember who sold it though... After my last DIY project on the goat went so poorly, I'm hanging my hat on non-stereo upgrades for a while. I think the other forums have advertisers who offer the gauge pod. good luck.

Mark

ocmike3 · August 2005

Here is the link to summary of the Speed Channel test: BMW 330ci, Mustang GT, Infiniti G35 & GTO - the GP GXP, G35, BMW330ci & Maxima. "GTO Smoked the competition" and GP GXP held its own.
Its the August 11 GMtv
http://gmtv.feedroom.com/iframeset.jsp?ord=605697

Also www.pontiac.com/testdrive or http://speedtv.com/pontiac/

white6 · August 2005

Appreciate your effort for posting. It's definitely not the cam lope... I am aware of that. This is a low frequency vibration; like a loud, low bass note that vibrates the whole car. On the second trip (of four) to the dealer last fall I had them pull a new 04 A4 GTO around to service to compare to my car. Major difference; service advisor acknowledged this. Lemon law also covers defects which affect resale/value, which this definitely does. If I were to test drive this car today, there is no way I would buy it in it's current condition. I faxed the paperwork to BBB this morning...

hammen2 · August 2005

I skimmed over your earlier messages... A4?
Have they checked the transmission mounts?
Has the dealer tried dropping the engine and tranny and re-aligning them?

I have the GTO Brand Quality Manager's contact info... drop me an email (address in my profile) and I'll pass it on to you. This would be your best option for getting this resolved, as he will put a bunch of resources on the case... I would not tell him up front that you've filed with the BBB, however.

You know, I think Holden builds a quality car, I just think it's your typical Pontiac/GM service department that doesn't know the car, and won't take the time to learn about it, even though components like the LS1/LS2 and the auto and manual trannies, were used on the F-bodies as well...

--Robert

blackflag3 · August 2005

Robert,
Thanks for the input. I'll be sure to continue using Mobil 1 in the car.
I'd like to let you boys know that in my neck of the woods (Northern Ohio)
that the GTO really turns heads. Have had nothing but compliments so far.
Even among Mustang GT nuts. The Mopar boys are impressed by the GTO but are cooing about how the new Hemi Dodge Charger will take care of the GTO in the 1/4 mile...Don't know much about that one yet.

elkiii · August 2005

Somewhere I've seen a picture of the Monaro HSV. It showed a gauge cluster there. I also noted what appears to be auto climate controls sitting where the current controls are. Don't know if this is something just down in aussie land or for '06 or what. Would have been nice to have it though if it exists

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

" but are cooing about how the new Hemi Dodge Charger will take care of the GTO in the 1/4 mile...Don't know much about that one yet."

The mopar boys are wrong. The GTO will beat the Hemi Dodge Charger in the 1/4 mile, 0-60, top end and skidpad grip. Stock vs Stock. I believe the Hemi charger only has a .78 skidpad.

Car and driver had the GTO at 4.8 seconds 0-60 and 13.3 1/4mile
Car and driver had Charger at 5.6 seconds 0-60 and 14.2 1/4 mile

Now the SRT8 edition of the Charger if they have one, well then it should be about the same or slight edge to mopar.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

Monaro has climate control, sunroof and a few other goodies we don't get here in the states.

Pontiac GTO

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