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Pontiac GTO
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'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I hope it works, but if history is any guide, the odds are stacked against it. Remember the Mercury Capri? Mercury's answer to the Miata. Thinking it came out around 1990. Was an Australian Ford. Bombed in US market. Remember the Merkur XR4ti? Came out around 1984 and died a slow death about 1988. It didn't do so well. Heavily modified from a wonderful Ford of Europe product. Then Merkur Scorpio, another Ford of Europe transplant, bombed even quicker. This list of less than great transplants includes a horde of Mitsu transplants rebadged as Plymouths and Dodges. Opel LeMans (really a Daweo). Isuzus and Suzukis rebadged as Chevrolets (and later Geos). Chevy to do this again in near future. And more.
So few have succeeded. Only two I can think of were the Ford Fiesta in the late 1970s (and it was killed off quickly in USA to make room for mediocre American-designed/produced Escort) and the Mercury Capri from the mid-1970s (based on the classic Ford of Europe car).
High 12s with good tires? That's pretty damned quick.
Out of curiosity, anyone know numbers for a recent vette (non-Z06)? I looked at motor trend real quick but couldn't sift through all the nonsense. I'm sure I could find it somewhere, but this is easier.
I'm wondering how much of a difference we're talking about.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Not nearly the same as reviving an American classic. (we'll avoid T-bird references and hope that is no indication)
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
What car is that in the last pic?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Great example is the Mercury Marauder. Looked good on paper. Hype made it look like it had a lot going for it. But once the testing started, the mediocrity stood out. Failing in the marketplace.
[Some transplants shouldn't have failed. Cousin of mine had an '85 Merkur XR4ti. A potentially great car that just lacked decent follow-up improvement.]
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
When Lutz approved this project, all models of the car (Chevrolet Lumina SS/Holden Monaro/Pontiac GTO) recieved a redesigned interior with materials that can stand below zero temperatures.
As for history, well, those are all no name cars. This is the new Pontiac GTO, it has a legendary name and a lot of good specs going for it, it's also the same type of car as the original (powerful, comfortable, coupe).
If it provides the performance, it will be purchased, especially at the $33k price which is a bargain compared to the loaded F-bodies GM was selling not so long ago.
http://www.autospeed.com/A_1381/cms/article.html
It's from AutoSpeed, an Australian car mag.
The car has underwent some changes since then, and the GTO is further tweaked here and there over the Chevrolet/Holden flavors, I wonder how much more refined GM has made it for North America?
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=6&article_- id=234&page_number=1
http://www.autoweek.com/search/search_display.mv?port_code=autowe- ek&cat_code=coverstory&content_code=09579140&Search_T- ype=STD&Search_ID=1458704&record=26
The second review is about the first model year Monaro, which has a completely different Australian spec interior. The Lumina, Monaro and GTO have an all new and improved interior designed for severe cold weather climates. Not to mention it looks much better style, quality and material wise.
Some more blurbs,
http://www.motortrend.com/future/concepts/112_0110holden/index.ht- ml
http://www.motortrend.com/future/concepts/112_0202_gto/index.html
http://www.motortrend.com/future/concepts/112_0212_holden/index.h- tml
I hope GM saw fit to refine the car's noise and ride quality for the North American market, the consensus seems to be it's a bit too rough to be a premium coupe.
vahls... I just mentioned some examples of "lesser" 4-door sedans that locate the battery in the trunk as part of a serious attempt to achieve near 50/50 balance. I could've mentioned some coupes. Maybe even a few wagon (540i sport wagon is exactly 50.0/50.0).
I don't see where G&F "did" anything to us in Iraq except refuse to believe some...ah...exaggerations about WMDs.
-------------------------------------------------
The whole thing about battery location has been blown out of proportion. The battery in the trunk technique was used often but not always back in the day before modern suspensions and tires made weight distribution less critical.
Still there were a lot of good handling sports cars and sedans that didn't have trunk-mounted batteries.
I can't think of any V8 sedans that have even approached a 50/50 balance.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
btw, the amount of gas you carry around will make a much larger difference than that.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I'm praying GM/Holden sweat the details over the life of the GTO. I'd like to use my $3,000 in GM credit card rebates. Maybe in '05 it'll get side airbags. And wider tires. Maybe a more comprehensive gauge package (like was in the old Camaro). Then I'm there.
Notice I bought a '96 Impala SS? That was the only year it had a tachometer and the floor-mounted shifter. Those should've been standard when it came out. Lots of people and reviewers noticed the omissions. Or look at the Fiero mess. Took years before they got it right and then they killed it. Is it asking too much for GM to get it right out of the chute?
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I am, however, against whimpy tires on a performance car. We'll see what it actually comes with, though. I'm willing to bet they will be adequate for street driving (very few cars come with racing tires stock).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Good post Gbrozen. At $36k optioned out the new Goat is bound to have some flaws.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Maybe the next GTO should spawn off the CTS platform.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
The CTS is not 50 grand because it cost them that much to make. Its 50 grand because that's what people will pay for it.
The CTS tweaks that made it the CTSv are
-off the shelf corvette motor
-brakes from brembo, already designed
-suspension upgrades which don't cost much to change
-minor cosmetic changes
The basic car is so close otherwise to a stock CTS. The interior is the same except for some suede and aluminum. Anything else the car has new is either supplied by a vendor, or pulled from the vette. The new parts GM had to develop are minimal or inconsequential. The basci structure, body, hard points and safety systems (the costly items) are all intact.
Give credit to GM here......take a motor from eseentially a 25k Camaro, stuff it in an already designed chassis, tweak a few suspension and brake items, some intake plumbing, add fancy wheels and suede on the seat cushions and mark it up 15 grand. Bravo.
GM should mass produce the CTSv, they'd sell 100k of them easy.
I've lived all over the country and travelled all over the world. I've discovered one immutable truth. Some people aren't happy unless they can find something to complain about. Nothing is ever good enough. Nothing ever meets their standards.
Well I for one couldn't care less if a few neurotic people don't like the GTO. So it doesn't have this do-dad or the "perfect weight distribution" for all the "racing" I'm sure y'all do. (yes, that was sarcasm...)
I for one applaud GM for the move they have made. Lutz has started to turn the behemoth around. Unfortunately, like a Ford Excursion, the bureaucracty at GM won't turn on a dime. It will take time to get from where GM is now to where we all want them to be and I applaud this new move. So what if it isn't perfect the first time out of the chute? Rome wasn't built in a day.
So go ahead and tilt at your windmills and beat your chest as you rant about minutia. I for one am going to purchase a GTO and enjoy it. It's going to be better than any performance car Pontiac has ever sold. Even if it's no better than the Monaro in handling, it will still out perform anything Pontiac has ever put on the street. And it's well within the straight line performance class of the retired F-body. For it's very reasonable price of $33K, I'll enjoy it. I'll have fun tossing into the corners and scooting up to highway speeds or passing on two lane roads. Because I'm not stupid enough to street race but still enjoy some competition now and again, I may even take mine to a track once in a while just for fun. I know I won't be the fastest one there but I'm still going to have a faster than average, drivable, enjoyable coupe for a very reasonable price. Anyone who feels the same is welcome to join me.
The rest of you can do what it is you do so well. Sit in front of your computers yelling back and forth about equipment lists and numbers on paper, never knowing the true thrill of the visceral experience that driving can be.
For many years, I have completely rejected the writings of most automotive "journalists". They are all biased in one way or another. For example, I saw a magazine that will not be named that criticized the "outdated, boxy styling" of the Jeep Cherokee while in the same issue praising the "aggressive, angular styling" of the new Mercedes G-Wagon. This same rag had musings by the editorial staff about how cars have improved in their predictability and road manners while lamenting the loss of the "fun factor" of taking a 60's road car to it's limits IN THE SAME ISSUE. Their road test times are frequently different than real world results by real world drivers on tracks around the country.
Most reviews of cars are little more than biased op-ed pieces written by people who only like one kind of car. I did a little experiment with myself and wrote down the order I though a magazine would rate 10 family sedans. I got every one right without reading the article. I tried the same with another rag with the same results. And no, the lists were not the same. I just understood the bias of the particular editorial staff.
If all you care about is the published test times and other useless numbers in magazines, perhaps you need to consider not only another car but an entirely different brand.
It is not humanly possible for me to care less what some self proclaimed "expert" says about a car. It is no different than the movie critic raving about the latest obscure art film that puts me to sleep in 10 minutes.
I like to think for myself. As a result, I don't evaulate every vehicle as if it should be a race car on the track.
My GTO will see little or no track time. In fact, it will be rare to see me pushing this car to it's limits since doing so will surely get me all sorts of unwanted attention from law enforcement. Sure, I'll goose it frome a stoplight once in a while and maybe take a fast corner now and again. I might be tempted to find a winding country road and push it a little when passing slow traffic but that's about it. As a result, there are many other things that are far more important to me than skid pad G force ratings and slalom times. Still, I will enjoy this car. Why? Because it's better than average and the monthly payment won't be anywhere near as much as my mortgage, not to mention the other cars in it's class.
Not sure if that is damning with faint praise (though that depends on what the "average" is), but maybe you might know a lot more after actually driving (and later owning) one?
Never have understood some people's hatred of the automotive press. Warts, biases and all, they still serve a valuable purpose. If they didn't, places like Edmunds wouldn't be around.
I only came to Edmunds to get invoice pricing on cars. I couldn't care less what they think of those cars because they are not me. They do not base their opinions on the same foundation as I do. Even the peformance numbers in the magazines are questionable. Mustangs and Camaros getting 6+ second 0-60 times?!? AWD cars doing 5K+ drops to get the acceleration times down, all the while knowing that no one in their right mind would do that to a daily driver because the drivetrain will disintegrate after a dozen or so launches like that.
These magazines serve only one purpose. To give the couch racers something to talk about.
And as for knowing about the car, I have talked with people who do own Monaros. I have heard first hand accounts about how well they do on the road. The comfort levels, the handling prowess, the acceleration capabilities in the real world. Considering the average car on the road (the 4 door passenger cars like Camrys, Accords, etc.), the Monaro is better. And considering the short lead time on producing the GTO, I refuse to believe that there will be dramatic differences between the Monaro and the GTO. The most significant being the moving of the gas tank and the slight increase in power from the engine.
We can post links to other sites but not to forums and message boards.
Can't blame edmund's, can you?
They are putting a lot of time and money into this.
Eventually the moderator will get around to deleting posts starting at about #287 and finishing up with this one.
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That is the best way to handle Townhall questions.
It always works for me.
Back to the GTO!
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Looks pretty cool. What do y'all think?
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Other than that it looks like a winner.
An engine tuned for torque and a exhaust system to go with it will be it's main selling point.
But yea, a "modern" design should include wider tires. However, that's easy to change.
That's why a Chevrolet is identifiable as a Chevrolet and a Pontiac as a Pontiac.