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Pontiac GTO

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Comments

  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,370
    about retro cues. I believe there should be a certain restrained aggressiveness to the new Goat as well as a nod to the past.

    I like the emblem they put on the flank that harks back to the original but I'd like to see a subtle pair of NACA ducts on the hood, not protruding '68-'70 scoops. I'd also like to see
    wider tires and more aggressive fender flares and more definition in the grille.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    Perhaps the honeycomb mesh could be set back an inch or two inside the grille
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,370

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • trishieldtrishield Member Posts: 17
    Pontiac was displaying two finished, 2004 Pontiac GTOs at the Woodward Dream Cruise in Royal Oak Michigan, Saturday August 16th.

    Both were Phantom Black Metallic, one had a black interior, the other had a red interior. The car had throngs around it, mostly positive comments. In fact, the only people who didn't like it, were rednecks.

    The car has quite a presence in person, in fact it's large, Buick Riviera or Grand National large. Nobody will confuse it with the current Grand Am coupe, the only other coupe Pontiac offers.

    Overall quality is phenomenal. I ran my hands over the entire car, and pushed on it. The body is all metal, even the front clip and grille. I found no plastic parts or fiberglass. The paintjobs were flawless, and very rich. Phantom Black Metallic is very much like BMW's Cosmos Black.

    The interior is is nicely assembled (damn near Honda quality), and the materials are top notch. Switches and buttons all have a nice feeling, with the exception of the climate control dails, they remind me somewhat of a first gen. Taurus, but that doesn't really bother me.

    A third Quicksilver GTO was in the cruise itself driven by some GM employee and his family, the exhaust note is wicked, but lacks the hillbilly rapping sounds.

    I think everyone interested in the car will be very impressed with it, me included. Here are some pictures I took,

    http://www.ot2.cupofnoodles.com/trishield/wdcgto01.jpg

    http://www.ot2.cupofnoodles.com/trishield/wdcgto02.jpg

    http://www.ot2.cupofnoodles.com/trishield/wdcgto03.jpg
  • trishieldtrishield Member Posts: 17
    Visually the only GTO cues were the side fender badges and the chromed plastic "hood scoops" on the hood itself.

    The 2004 is very much the modern interpretation of the original, a very clean, powerful performance coupe.

    Both have horizontal stacked headlamps, twin port grilles, clean coupe bodies with chrome tipped exhausts, the 2004 is like the original car only fast forwarded 40 years and with today's Pontiac styling cues.

    Like I said, the car looks very nice in appealing, sophisticated in the way that many high dollar foreign cars look. The very antithesis of the old Firechicken inside and out, but retaining the performance.
  • ruskiruski Member Posts: 1,566
    Buick Riviera large? that's big. I used to have a Riv. There was a huge amount of room in that car.

    Hey they should design another version of Monaro for Buick and call it Wildcat. Or GNX :)
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    Thanks for the pics.
    Looks even better up close.
    Got any more?
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    thank God the new GTO was not blessed with traditional Detroit/GM/Pontiac trailer park/boys in study hall doodling looks.
  • ramped1ramped1 Member Posts: 159
    Thanx for the GTO picts. I wonder what that red convertible was sitting next to it? Can you help?
  • trishieldtrishield Member Posts: 17
    Is the Chevrolet Bel Aire concept car, it's pretty cool, very retro, uses the Vortec inline six, totally shames the SSR.

    I have more GTO pics I'll upload and share soon, stay tuned.
  • ramped1ramped1 Member Posts: 159
  • nas43nas43 Member Posts: 13
    When I first looked at the picture, I thought it was a T-bird. Chevy better not duplicate Ford's mistake and price it out of the market.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    I was thinking that after the Woodward Cruise there would be pics of the GTO flooding the internet.
    Kind of surprised that there haven't been more.

    The car does have a nice stance to it and good presence.

    I will probably be buying one in about 18 months.

    Had an opportunity to buy a '70 GTO Judge in '83 for $2000 and bought a '83 Z28 instead.

    Nobody said I was a rocket scientist.
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    the GTO hauls butt, the tbird does not.
  • diablo4diablo4 Member Posts: 40
    Trishield i thought the bel aire had a inline five with 315HP turbo.
  • midwesttradermidwesttrader Member Posts: 291
    Anyone have a clue how many have been ordered so far????
  • ruskiruski Member Posts: 1,566
    what plastic crap?
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    I have never heard anyone say that the G35 interior was great. Not even the people who own them. It is decent, but not great.
    LS1 motors get great gas mileage on the highway.
    Better than a G35 more than likely.
    The GTO is a bigger car than than the G35. With a bigger interior.
    Don't get me wrong, I like the G35. It is one of the best looking cars on the road.
    But when you come into a thread and throw a bunch of criticims around, you need to back them up with some facts or specs.
  • garnesgarnes Member Posts: 950
    b4z - you are probably right. The much heavier and more powerful and quicker GTO may get better mileage than a G35. Those engines achieve incredible economy as well as performance. The G35 economy is a joke. It's too Altima looking for me anyway (4 door at least).

    Anyway, two very different cars anyway.

    Snakerbill - at least it's a true dual exhaust, or I guess you'd be happier with the single exhaust, Y pipe split in the back for "dual" outlets. Not that it's bad, but hey - the GTO's got the real thing.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    snakerbill... If you love automatic transmissions, too bad the GTO skimps on a 4-speed design. Infiniti G35, Lexus IS300, Lincoln LS6/8, Cadillac CTS, Acura 3.2TL Type S, etc. all use 5-speed automatics. Additional gear and the ability to space the gears better can boost acceleration and fuel economy.

    The 6-speed manual really will be the only way to go for maximum GTO performance. Will be interesting to see if any car magazine even publishes a test of a 4-speed automatic GTO.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    Looks like I and several others here have owned
    Z28s. I have owned 5. Yep, 5.
    Currently own a '87 IROC LB9 5 speed, 3.45 rearend, 4 wheel disc car. 205K miles.
    Lots of Fbody and LS1 experience on this thread.

    Your Z28 is a auto so it does not pull down the big HWY numbers like the 6 speed cars do.
    28 mpg HWY is not unheard of with these cars.

    Like the G35 a lot. Looked at one yesterday with the new 2003.5 interior. Stunning car.

    Gto weighs about 200 lbs more than G35.
    High revving 3.5L V6 cant't hold a candle to a
    the torque monster 5.7L LS1/6.

    We also haven't talked much about the large rear seat area. This may be the GTO's ace in the hole.
    It will help a lot of people justify the car.
    Far more utility than the Fbod and Mustang. And the G35. Or any coupe I can think of save the Mercedes CLK at about 50K.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    GM doesn't have a 5 speed auto that can handle the LS1's torque.

    One would think that extra gears will help acceleration but it depends on the ratios and the spread.

    Extra shifts can slow a car down.

    Also '83 Monte Carlo SS w/ 3 speed auto was quicker in the quarter than the '84 with the 4 speed auto.
    Even though 4 speed had a much deeper 1st gear.

    But in most cases you are right a properly designed 5 speed auto should have the edge on a 4 speed with a deep 1 st gear and a wide space to 2nd.

    Some, like the inefficient Infiniti 5 speed sap more hp than the GM/BMW unit.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    As far as there being a lot of plastic crud on the GTO the Camaros fenders and doors were plastic.
    And you could option a Camaro well into the 30K range.
    And there was no ISS or any semblence of interior room in that car.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    When the Mustang GT was the car to have from '83-89 I only saw 2 tests with automatics. The earlier cars even had different hp ratings. 200hp for the manual and 180hp for the auto.
    Many people bought the auto thinking it was
    quick, because that is what the car mags said.
    The autos also had much taller final drives.

    I whacked many a Mustang in my '84 Z28 HO 5 speed.

    Good to see the GTO will have similiar gearing and performance for both the auto and manual.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    I think the SS 35th anniversary convertibles were up to about 40K.
    Mustang Cobra convertible is 37K
    And we all know how crappy that interior is in comparison to the GTO's or G35's.

    Intersting story on the Camaro. LS1 was introduced in '98 model year and had the cat cons up near the manifolds. Hump in passenger footwell was no longer needed.
    GM didn't want to spend the money to retool the floorplan so they left the hump.

    Looking forward to the GTO as the heir apparent to the fbods.

    GM seriously needs to get back into performance.
    I have had it with trucks and SUVs.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    b4z... You wrote, "GM doesn't have a 5 speed auto that can handle the LS1's torque."

    Wonder if it really isn't more a case of GM refuses to design and build one, prefering to stay behind the times?

    Check out the October 2003 issue of Motor Trend. Has a comparison of the Chevy Silverado SS (6.0L V8) vs the Dodge Ram 1500 SLT Hemi (5.7L). Cheapskate GM uses a 4-speed automatic in a truck with an MSRP of $40,010 (as tested). DB-Chrysler uses a new 5-speed automatic in a truck with an MSRP of only $27,820 (as tested).

    The Dodge 5-speed AT is being used with a 5.7L Hemi engine that produces 345 HP (@5400 RPMs) and 375 lb-ft of torque (@4200 RPMs). Those numbers seem close to the GTO.

    Shame on GM for falling behind in AT technology. GM of Europe has been selling BMW 5-speed automatics for years. GM didn't decide to use one of their own sophisticated 5-speed ATs in USA until the recent Cadillac CTS. GM wonders why it loses market share?
  • ruskiruski Member Posts: 1,566
    the 5-speed automatic in my TL-S does not really make the car much better. There is little difference between the 4th and 5th gears. They are really both overdrive gears. Shifting from 5th to 4th does not produce much better acceleration.

    And to top it all off, my TL-S' tranny broke after 6,100 miles.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    GM has a 6 speed auto that will be ready in less than 2 years.
    It will have 4 gears below 1.00 and 2 overdrive gears.
    Now that will provide some great acceleration.
    They also have a 6 speed FWD transaxle they are developing with FOrd
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    "GM doesn't have a 5 speed auto that can handle the LS1's torque."

    just wanted to point out that my father's 2500HD diesel GMC pickup has an Allison-made 5-speed auto. Can that tranny be used on the LS1? No. But that statement above is still false. OK, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    Not relative to the discussion.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    not being relevant seems to be a very common occurence around here, so no biggie. Just thought that having correct information might be desirable. I know I like to be correctly informed. So, if anything, the statment could be ammended to read "GM currently doesn't offer a 5-speed auto that can mate to the LS1," because they certainly have one that can "handle" it, its just not compatible with it. I can listen to alot of negative comments about GM quality, but they should at least be correct.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    ruski... Keep in mind that your 260 HP Acura 3.2TL Type S uses a very low numerical final drive. For MY2002 it was 4:428:1. It thus has great initial acceleration off the line. 0-60 mphs in around 6.5 seconds or less. But it then needs the ultra deep 5th (overdrive) which is 0.47:1 to achieve great fuel economy, which it does. The '02 EPA city/highway figures were 19/29 mpg! This overdrive is a deep as a Corvette's. They need an intermediate overdrive 4th (0.653) to bridge the gap between 3rd and 5th.

    1st 2.563 x 4.428 = 11.348964 overall
    2nd 1.551
    3rd 1.021
    4th 0.653
    5th 0.470 x 4.428 = 2.08116 overall

    1st to 5th overall spread is a very good 5.45. Compare that to Camaro 4-speed AT.

    You can't do this with a 4-speed.

    Notice how your car gets great highway fuel economy with blistering acceleration? That is what good gearing and more gears can do.

    Thinking GM used to make a decent 2-speed AT. Friend of mine had one in a '65 Impala. GM used to use it on a ton of powerful cars. Maybe GM should bring it back? Save them a few bucks? :)
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    Powerglide.
  • ruskiruski Member Posts: 1,566
    I am actually disgusted with my TL-S. Tranny broke at 6,100 miles. The car produces weird hickups. MPG... I don't think it is that great. I only get 250 miles per tank, all highway. On a regular basis lesser cars give me a hard time, especially if they catch me doing 85 in 5th gear - the tranny will not downshift to 3rd, it will only go down to 4th. I have to first slow down to 80mph, then force it to shift into 3rd. That helps, but for a short time. I did just that today - I managed to outrun a Camry and waved bye-bye to him, only to see him come back. Granted I did not want to take it much past 100mph out of fear of cops, plus my exit was coming up, but a Camry???
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    ruski... to hear about your problems. I took a 3.2TL Type S out for a nice test drive back in '01. She was a blast to drive. Powerful off the line and at high speeds. Think I had her up to 100 mph a couple times. And due to the deep overdrive, she didn't need too many RPMs to cruise all day long at highway or better speeds. An efficient and effective high speed crusier with great line manners. I was quite impressed (for a FWD car). Think your car might be an exception. What has the dealership's mechanic(s) done to fix your issues?

    My '96 Impala SS could've used a numerically lower 1st gear and a numerically lower final drive. She would've benefitted immensely from a 6-speed manual (or even 5-speed automatic).
  • avemanaveman Member Posts: 122
    I think gm is wise to go with the best performing most reliable trans they have at the time.I wonder how long it takes to mate a new transmission to an engine. I think the software is so complex that it takes a while to optimize.The SAturn Ion lanched with a Japanese made 5 speed that is not so quick.Honda is have transmison recalls. To lanch a quality vehicle you don't always want to be the most current.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    Since 2 doors don't seem to be popular anymore I am wondering if the GTO is around to make up for excess capacity at the Holden plant in Australia?

    Makes one wonder.

    I still like it though.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    uh... you can typically drive and buy a particular model year car in the previous year. So driving an '02 in '01 is perfectly correct.

    of course, he still could have meant a CL.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • midwesttradermidwesttrader Member Posts: 291
    It's been over ten weeks...how many have been ordered? You'd think if this car is a big hit Pontiac would be letting us all know by now. If nothing else to spur additional sales.
  • hammen2hammen2 Member Posts: 1,284
    Holden makes Commodores and Monaro's for both the home market as well as GM Middle East (http://www.gmme.com). They added a third shift which allowed them an additional production capacity of 18k cars, which is what will go to the GTO. Sure they could export more to the US, at the cost of lower sales in their home market or to the middle east export market.

    I think the design of the GTO appeals more to the under-30 crowd than the 45+ group (which would prefer the GTO to be retro/resemble the GTO of old). I don't see many of the under-30 crowd having the $$$ to buy one at $33k, though...

    --Robert
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    snakerbill... qbrozen was right. I test drove it on 11/11/01. Remember it was Veterans' Day and I had the holiday off. Test drove a ton of MY2002s that week, but I've never driven a CL. [Drove an I35t that day right before the 3.2TL Type S. No comparison. The TL-S a much more fun and exciting car.]
  • midwesttradermidwesttrader Member Posts: 291
    The Solstice won't work for me. I need a back seat to sell the deal to the "finance committee".

    I love the idea of a four-seat vette (GTO), but am still on the fence, pricing and build quality being the primary issues. I drive a '98 Altima SE that has been bullet proof since the day I bought it. On the other hand, I also own a '97 Bonneville that has had numerous quality issues and recalls.

    I'm resigned to waiting until there are some '04s on the lot for a while or waiting for the '05s and seeing what happens to the pricing then.

    Gee, I'd actually like to drive one first before I buy come to think of it.
  • nas43nas43 Member Posts: 13
    that has advance ordered an 04 GTO (43 to be exact). What I like about the car is the power (V8!), 6 speed manual, rear wheel drive, true dual exhaust, and the fact that it looks like someone can sit in the back seat and actually be comfortable (I have a wife and 2 teenagers). I'm not into retro styling. I love the look of the interior of the GTO. The exterior styling I like except the spoiler looks like it was added as an after thought. The only other cars on my short list of possibilities were the BMW 330i (with Performance package) and the Audi A4 3.0. The GTO should smoke either one, has more room, and costs less. I want a car that is fast, sounds good, looks good, but also that is comfortable inside and is built solid. I've never been interested in Japanese cars for whatever reason.
  • corkfishcorkfish Member Posts: 537
    I'm 43 too and might have considered the GTO because its looks are'nt over the top. The problem here is that I'm not spending $35,000 on a car. I bought a Forester XT that does 0 to 60 in 5.3 seconds for $24,000 and I can drive it in the snow. $35,000 is crazy.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    Subaru has got it going on right now, but if you did a street start, the GTO would win.
    You have to rev the Subaru up and dump the clutch.
    Do that 10-20 times and you will either have no clutch or there will be parts lying on the street.
    The GTO has power all over the place and probalby only requires a 2500 rpm launch.
  • corkfishcorkfish Member Posts: 537
    We'll see. The Forester XT is nothing like the WRX. No reving required because of the 444:1 final drive gearing. The closest comparison I can make for the Forester XT is the Buick Gran National. It's street start according to car and driver is 6.2 seconds. I don't know what the GTO's is yet. I'm not knocking the GOAT, I just think that GM should have evaluated the magic $30K limit that a lot of people ( me included) keep in mind when they buy a car.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    during all this price comparison is that the goat is coming with alot of luxury built into it. Leather power seats and all that. Maybe they will offer a lower model later on to get that price below $30K. We'll see.

    I can tell you that the Forester is NOT a comfortable car and is far from luxurious. I'm not knocking it. I think its a great bargain, but we are talking about 2 completely different animals with 2 completely different purposes.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • garnesgarnes Member Posts: 950
    nas43 - I've got the same car ideas as you describe. Although my short list would never have ended up like yours.

    B4z - thank you. Yes, the GTO will be powerful from any situation - not just a trick launch. The pocket rockets are still quick from a roll, but nowhere near the "0 to" times. I find it amusing that these cars sometimes don't perform as well in later "comparison" tests with other cars either. The "first drive" models often test out faster. Hmmmm.
  • midwesttradermidwesttrader Member Posts: 291
    I am also a 43 year old family man who will have to think very hard about paying over $30k for a car.

    qbrozen - I think value is an issue. I can order a loaded '04 Mazda 6s for under $26k. Granted it has 130 less ponies under the hood, but it would have auto climate control, side air bags & curtains, real tires and some other goodies that the GTO does not. Is the GTOs extra power worth $8k more to me? I'm not so sure.

    By the way, since they are building these cars right now isn't it about time to set firm pricing?
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Performance is more, much more, than just straight-line acceleration from a standing start. 0-60 mph time is important. But so is 1/4 mile, top speed, 50-70 top gear, etc. And then there are the other equally important peformance issues: braking (performance and feel), steering, handling, ride, etc. There are the day-to-day driveability and liveability issues. Are the seats comfortable on long drives? Is the clutch too heavy? Is it easy to park? Can people get in and out of it without a hassle? Decently roomy and well-shaped trunk? Finally, there are the costs of owning and operating. Is it reliable? How much does routine maintenance cost? Insurance? How is real world fuel economy?

    Cars that do all these things well and some of them very, very well indeed are those that we all lust for. Question is whether GM/Holden can bring it to America and make all the parts work together as a team.
This discussion has been closed.