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Pontiac GTO

145791082

Comments

  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,369
    the GTO won't be much like anything else available new in the USA. G35s, Foresters and so on are very nice automobiles for the money but they aren't 300+hp V8 muscle cars.

    The closest "apple" IMO will be the '05 Mustang (available in Fall '04). There are some obvious resemblances. Both are RWD V8-powered reiterations of 1960's classics with more or less 2+2 seating.

    There are also some obvious differences-

    Only one is available in convertible form, only one will offer IRS in standard trim, only one offers a powerhouse V8 in base form.

    Prices (est)

    $24k V8 Mustang coupe> $42k Cobra 'vert ('06)
    vs.
    $34k GTO w 6 speed ($650 extra)

    I find both intriguing for much the same reasons
    and I don't think we'll know which has more bang for the buck until the Cobra SVT emerges in '06.

    Meanwhile I really don't care if a Civic goes for half what a Goat does.

    Can you say "irrelevant"?

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • tv3wrxtv3wrx Member Posts: 8
    I'm looking around for what car I'm going to buy next, and after hearing so much about the GTO I decided to look into it. After doing that, I can only ask why they are even offering it. 35 grand? Two doors, but no faster than my current 25k 4-door buggy? Or a new Neon, for that matter? I keep looking for a US make car that fits my wants/needs, but I just cant find it. If this were 4 doors and 30k or less, I'd consider it. All I see here is an overpriced two-door "semi-muscle-car" that kinda gives Pontiac something to talk about where they would otherwise have none. Seems like just more of the GM shell-game to me, and a continued affliction with nostalgia-based car ideas. I'm not young. I grew up at a gas station, I built muscle cars. But that was 1960's. I dont need to do that again. And if I were going to, it'd be with an original muscle car, or a current Vette or Cobra . Now that's a muscle car, where you can legitimately talk of the benefits of low-rev "launches" and what not. The GTO is not muscle, and not practical either. Pass.
  • corkfishcorkfish Member Posts: 537
    The GOAT better live up to it's reputation though. For all the horsepower it has this thing is one very heavy vehicle. If it does'nt do the quarter in the 13's and 60 in 5.5 seconds it's over. Ford learned the hard way with the Marauder that a "muscle car" better have plenty of muscle. If I spent that kind of money on a car I'd expect that it could at least keep up with a Dodge Neon SRT or a Subaru mini van! I grew up with GTO's, Mustangs and Cudas and I'd love to see it succeed. I would hope that GM thought this through better than Mercury did.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    GTO will do 0-60 in less than 5.5 secs.
    I will guarantee it and take bets.

    Cam in LS1 is not radical. It actually has more torque over a wider band.

    LS6 intake doesn't really provide any more power.
    Many 2001 and 2002 Fbods had it installed from the factory.

    I want to reiterate my comment aboout the Subaru and how it also applies to the Neon, and any other car for that matter.

    We can take a Neon SRT and a GTO and run them from a 5 mph roll and the GTo will beat it.

    I have raced many of these 4 cylinders in my IROC.
    They are supposed to be faster but I beat them everytime.
    They simply don't have the low end torque to compete in the stoplight grand prix.

    Magazine numbers are great but they often don't translate to the real world.
  • tv3wrxtv3wrx Member Posts: 8
    and generalizing an awful lot, too. I've owned/built a lot of V8's in my day. Nobody disputes the lowend torque, the power, the thunder, the yada yada yada. Done it lived it, raced it, on the strip, on the road course, on the street. That's a pretty narrow view of what a car should be to the average buyer. The discussion is about weather the car makes sense for the money, not about v8 vs import 4 cylinder. As a muscle car the GTO does not cut it (in my opinion) compared to a real muscle car, or nostalgia car in other words. And it is not as versatile, practical or affordable as the 4 cylinder turbo jobbies. So it may be in no-man's land at that price. That's the point that was made. I'll make one more too: This car or any other "pretend" muscle car will be enough to save Pontiac in the long run. The brand is only slightly relevant here in the states, and certainly is totally irrelevant everywhere else in the world. No brand can survive in the future by being US-focused only. It is just not economically viable anymore.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    GTO is hardly a pretend musclecar.
    It is far superior to anything available in the 70's.
    The IRS alone probably costs $2000 retail.
    The interior is more expensive, etc.
    SLP sells a cam/head package for the LS1 that bumps it to 470 HP.
    Which is about 600 SAE gross hp.

    The styling may not be to everyone's taste but it
    is the most passenger oriented musclecar I have ever seen.

    Besides, it won't be long before we will be buying these things near invoice + $2-3000 rebate like all GM cars. LOL.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    you comment that you like the vette, but not this. I don't get it. You do realize this has the vette drivetrain along with more of the practicality you speak of, right??

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    A Mazda6? You're comparing a Mazda6 to this? You're kidding, right? Hey, I love Mazda, I really do, but the 6s even with a stick can't get its bloated butt to 60 in less than 7 secs on a perfect day with the best driver. And the tests show that it doesn't even outhandle its primary Japanese competitors. So is a comfy 4-seater Vette worth $8K more than that? I say without a doubt.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    Geez. Its funny. You are right. I started out here thinking this car was overpriced and I said so. But having more and more people come on here and bring up the prices and performance of other cars is only turning me more and more to the dark side and thinking that this car is relatively well-priced.

    oh, and by the way, in regards to the age thing, everyone, I'll be 30 by the time this car hits the streets. Just old enough to remember some great muscle cars roaming the streets and just young enough to still want a coupe and at a good point in my career and life that I could afford it. So i think the target group is pretty accurate.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    I'd be more worried about the tires. Small size more appropriate for a Buick. Not a lot of contact rubber. Compare to tire sizes used in Corvette, Camaro/Firebird/Trans Am V8, or '94-'96 Impala SS V8. All that power, the 6-speed manual transmission, and LSD...going to go thru tiny tires.

    What specific brand and model of tire is used? Would be nice if they splurged for Michelin Pilot Sports!
  • midwesttradermidwesttrader Member Posts: 291
    qbrozen - I think you missed my point. Of course the Mazda 6s has far less horsepower. But I drove one recently and it handled like it was on rails and had excellent build quality. I'd like much more than just a big-[non-permissible content removed] motor to blast off the line for my $34k (like a moonroof as another example).

    riez - you and I are on the same page

    b4z - I hope you are right on pricing. I really want to love this car and may still break down and buy one yet.
  • midwesttradermidwesttrader Member Posts: 291
    The Mazda 6s has 220 HP and weighs 3243 lbs.

    The GTO has 350 HP but weighs 3725 lbs. With an average size driver you're looking at almost 2 tons on those punny tires.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    I think I hit right on your point. The Mazda is not that stellar of a handler compared to other cars today. Autoweek stated just this week that the Honda and Toyota beat it in their slalom test. And I think you are going to be surprised at the Goat's handling [maybe it will need new tires, see below for more on that] (just like the current Vette is such a monster at the track AND the dragstrip).

    You're right that the Mazda isn't necessarily heavy... until you look at power to weight ratios. If they could have shaved it down to 3k lbs, they could have come in right between nissan and honda:

    mazda6s 14.74 lbs/hp
    Accord v6 14.1 lbs/hp
    Altima v6 13.05 lbs/hp
    GTO 10.64 lbs/hp

    Again, I'm not saying the Mazda is necessarily bad, but comparing it to this car is ridiculous. You may as well start comparing a Miata to a convertible Vette.

    Tires? I've never had a car that came with decent tires from the factory. That's not hard to fix.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    qbrozen... Are you saying buyers should just scrap the tires on their brand new car and spend $800-1200 up front buying new tires? Why can't GM get it right up front? Heck, a $20,000 Hyundai Tiburon V6 6-speed comes with relatively meaty Michelin Pilot Sports. Shouldn't a $33-35,000 GTO come with rubber as good?

    I can picture Pontiac dealers with piles of brand new GTO tires rotting out back. And the UPS driver bringing new tires to them from Tire Rack every day. :)
  • midwesttradermidwesttrader Member Posts: 291
    Excellent points. Hadn't thought of it that way. I'll have to check out Autoweek.

    Glad to see things more lively around here. I had started visiting that "other website" you guys refer to. On the other hand I'm not getting anything done here at work.

    Oh well, happy Friday!
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    I always read of people doing this. Heck, I've seen many do it before even driving the car home from the dealership.

    Ok, I don't even know, what brand tires are coming on this? I must have missed that post.

    As far as size, the Tiburon comes with 205/55/16s. Someone here listed the GTO as having 225/50/17s. So, as a matter of fact, the Goat's tires ARE wider than the Tib. The Tib's are actually the same exact ones on my Volvo T5 and I do find those pretty decent although I'd like a little better wet traction.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    It was autoweek on speed channel. Haven't seen the mag (I let my subscription lapse) so you'll have to let me know if its in there and if there are more details.

    This is still alot of speculation since we haven't gotten to drive the GTO. Hopefully we can make a real-world determination soon. I think the closer comparison is going to be the RX8 vs. this car. Still very different, but the pricing and purpose are closer.

    On a side note, personally, I'm hoping the mazda3 will be even more fun than the 6.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    qbrozen... I said "relatively" re: the Tiburon V6 6-speed. According to Edmunds data for the MY2004 Tiburon V6 6-speed, it comes standard with P215/45R17 tires. Compare the weight and power differences. Hyundai smartly chose to shod her with great Michelin Pilot Sport tires. Expensive but worth it.

    Anyone know what brand and model of tire is standard with GTO?
  • bama60bama60 Member Posts: 15
    I don't think anyone knows for sure yet. In the brochures and on the Pontiac site, they are Goodyear Eagles RSAs. GM and Pontiac always seem to use the Goodyear Eagles. My 98 Grand Prix GTP came with the same tires.
  • ruskiruski Member Posts: 1,566
    sounds like you inhaled too much gas when you grew up near that gas station.
  • ezraponezrapon Member Posts: 348
    I just stumbled over here from the bonneville board, you guys are really rough on each other here. Especially concerning a car that no one has ever seen or driven. Went to the PMD dealer got the brochure and thought about laying down a deposit. Can't commit to something that I have not even sat in. I'm 6'3" and could see some ugly problems. I drive a 2000 ssei. I know it inside out (side air bags and all). I think I'll wait untill the new GXP and GTO are side by side in the show room...I'm leaning to the GXP, too bad it's not rear wheel with the Ls6, perhaps it would have been the perfect car. The real GTO. Speaking of heritage, compare the bonneville line up with the old gto blood line Tempest/se...Lemans/sle...gto/ssei, it's uncanny if you remeber the old tempest line up.
  • corkfishcorkfish Member Posts: 537
    Well, I'm not into the macho car thing anymore. I lift weights every day blah, blah blah, but I find it much more fun to have a sleeper. Vettes or Mustangs are supposed to be fast. The guy in the Mustang I smoked in my Forester the other day had a priceless look on his face. Being beaten by car that looks like something a soccer mom would drive? It doesn't get any better than that! I wouldn't say that the EVO, WRX and Neons are cute, I'd say they are boy racer which is even worse. I bet 90% of the EVO's out there are sold to rich kids who live in their parents basement. When the SRT came out, I even went to the dealer to see if I could swap out the spoiler, hood and grill so it would look like a regular Neon (a plain jane $20K Neon that does the quarter in 14 can deal out much more humiliation than a Porsche- which are supposed to be fast). The thing that attracted me to the new GTO was the fact that its styling is more adult. It's a car a grown man can drive to work and not be embarrassed (unlike the EVO etc.) Unfortunate that the price is, in my opinion, excessive.
  • garnesgarnes Member Posts: 950
    These power curves of the LS1 and LS6 are pretty interesting. And the GTO will have a power curve that substantially beats the 2000 and 2001 LS1 curves shown here. Very cool. Looking at power curves also underscores the importance of the total amount of power delivered through acceleration and how insignificant peak numbers can be as well.

    http://www.corvettemuseum.com/specs/2001/images/graph.jpg

    All this power does make you have to question the tires though.
  • garnesgarnes Member Posts: 950
    Here are the graphs of the LS6 2002 vs 2001. Again - very interesting. I hope to see this offered someday in the GTO.

    http://www.corvettemuseum.com/specs/2002/2002-LS6vs2001LS6.pdf

    I like how GM got the latest LS6 to produce more power from about 3000 rpm without sacrificing any part of the power curve.
  • vcjumpervcjumper Member Posts: 1,110
    Will smoke a GTP and has a much nicer interior than a GTP but its kinda homely and it won't smoke a GTO unless you're in some bad weather.
  • ruskiruski Member Posts: 1,566
    but you have to shift your own gears in the Forester in order to smoke someone.
  • vcjumpervcjumper Member Posts: 1,110
    Thats a good thing!
  • bama60bama60 Member Posts: 15
    This thread just keeps getting funnier and funnier. What about the PT Cruiser, or maybe the VW Beetle, no... a Hummer. Now there's a car in direct competion with the GTO. Hey, I smoked a V6 Mustang with an 97 GMC Sierra. Does that count?
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    if i'm not mistaken, gm is using the same basic engine in the corvette, gto, and new cadillac vert. they don't want the gto to overshadow them, if it could.
    as far as the subaru comment goes, the turbo forrester is supposed to do 0-60 in around 5.5 seconds. that's pretty fast. doesn't make me want to drive one, though.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • tpi3051991tpi3051991 Member Posts: 1
    When I was 22, I bought a 1991 Formula (305). This GTO sounds like it will blow my doors off, and sound meaner than anything else I am looking at. So since i am in the market for a new sedan/coupe, it deserves consideration. The 3 series was ok, G35 sounded too high pitch, audi, vw take em or leave em. I am waiting to see and drive for myself.
  • midwesttradermidwesttrader Member Posts: 291
    Now that you are actually building these cars...

    1) Confirm how much they will cost (including gas guzzler tax if I have to pay it).

    2)Tell us what brand and size tires we will get.

    3) Announce how many have been ordered so far.

    I wonder if 1 and 3 are related. Hmmmmmmm.
  • garnesgarnes Member Posts: 950
    - if launched just right, from 0 only..... And that's the one "sent" to the magazine.

    Real world?

    Real or not, I would not want one either.

    I never understood the mentality of the "pocket rocket" crowd interrupting the discussions of various boards with their magazine "0 to" numbers.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    bet the gto will be 'a special' too. they're all like that.
    hate to keep the svx thread going but(15 minutes, no seconds, of fame?) from this site; '97 stats; 0-60 8 secs, 60-0 127 ft, roadholding .87g's.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • garnesgarnes Member Posts: 950
    I don't think everybody does that. I recall an issue of C&D not too long ago where they tested the G35, CTS, 330i, W8 and some others in a comparison test. The CTS performed pretty much up to other reported numbers while the G35 and most of the others weren't nearly as fast anymore. That same issue featured the new Accord first drive and it's numbers to 60 and in the 1/4 beat every car listed above (actually all of the cars in the comparo). They got a lot of mail about it and said they got "bad gas" for the comparison test. Well, the CTS did not seem to be affected by the gas, and they went ahead with the article never mentioning this in the first place - blah blah blah. Anyway it was a lame attempt to cover for the fact that the Accord was so fast, and many of the sport luxury cars choked miserably compared to earlier "first drives". Oh yeah, C&D also claims to compensate for atmospheric conditions and such.

    So, I do think it's widespread but if anything GM probably doesn't have a clue how to cheat. For crying out loud, they're still stuck in this mentality that they have to down-rate many of their cars so as not to "compete" with other lines. Pretty stupid.

    In short, I don't expect the GTO to be a "ringer" or whatever. If it performs too good, people at GM will be upset that it's too close to Corvette times.

    It'll have significantly more torque throughout the curve than the standard Corvette LS1, but will also be 3700+ lbs which is a good 400+ lbs more than a Corvette. I guess that 5.5 number sounds about right.

    The aftermarket stuff available should be exciting too.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,369
    anywhere close to the Corvette it will only mean one thing, the 'Vette is too damn heavy.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    Gm can throw in a ringer with the best of them.
    '96 Impala SS 0-60 in 6.5 seconds.
    has anybody ever seen a stock Impala SS go this
    quick?
    '93 Z28 Camaro 0-60 in 5.0 seconds. 275 hp.
    9 years later 345 hp Camaro SS still couldn't reach that time.
    Can you say balanced and blueprinted?
    All times are from Car and Driver.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,369
    when Jim Wangers and David E Davis conspired to have Car& Driver test a Royal Oak-prepped '64 GTO with re-jetted carbs etc
    and got a 0-60 time of 4.9 sec.

    To be fair the mods were mentioned in the article but they were minimized and "zero-60 under 5 sec" became a part of GTO lore.

    The test purported to compare a Goat with an actual 3 liter Ferrari GTO, LOL!

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    There's more....
    That GTO had a 421 in it!!

    Also they used hand held stopwatches back then.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    In todays market with such large discounts, one can get a Corvette for that price.

    Please let me know when you find a dealership that will actually sell the new Corvette for $35K. In theory, they start at $44K, but the least expensive one on any lot within 50 miles of me is $47K. If you can find me a dealer giving at 25% discount, I'm there.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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  • garnesgarnes Member Posts: 950
    Thanks guys. I guess it can come from anywhere. The bottom line is that the magazine numbers are often a poor place to look for real world performance. But so many people invest so much of their ego in those numbers. It's sad.

    Actually, with so much on the line with performance, I think it's criminal to send anything to a magazine that's a bit "special" and then quote the magazines performance results in an advertisement.

    I think this goes on a lot.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,369
    Wanger's confession that it was a 421, IIRC he blabbed it just a couple years ago.

    Just goes to show that O-60 or 1/4 mile times are poor reasons to buy a car. If it feels fast it IS fast enough.

    Back off Valhs! You're crowding the start line again, let her idle down for a bit, eh.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    Congrat, valhs. What color did you end up with? And, OK, *you* can get a Corvette for $36K, but I can't :)

    It would be great if we can focus this discussion on the GTO, rather than making it a "my car can beat up your car" discussion. Those tend to have a short lifespan, with lots of deleted posts along the way.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
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  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    can't wait to hear some driving impressions around here.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • midwesttradermidwesttrader Member Posts: 291
    I don't know how much snow falls in your part of VA in December. Lots of HP, rear wheel drive, new car excitement, four inches of snow. Whooooops!

    Seriously, good luck and be careful to all of you with winter deliveries.
  • ezraponezrapon Member Posts: 348
    This board has some serious issues (snakerbill) Isn't this about cars, GTO's in particular? Personal attacks reveal volumes about one's character. I previously mentioned or compared the new GPX and GTO... I believe most of us here can make the leap between these cars. Subarus and other rice grinders are not even worth mention in this forum...apples and oranges. The GTO premise which was to shoe-horn a giant engine into a cheap small car (tempest)so every regular guy could become a week end warrior, has been lost here. Pontiac has gone upscale. A good idea this new car, but not a true GTO, remeber what killed the GTO? It was the roadrunner. Watch Mopar drop a hemi into a cheap rear wheel intrepid class car and kill off the goat again. Stranger things have happen. AND I didn't need to attack someone to get my point across, how bout them apples.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    if the Roadrunner(beep beep) killed the GTO.
    Contrary to popular belief the GTO was never the fastest musclecar. It might have been in '64 or '65, but everyone else had caught on to their formula and had their own competitive offering.
    Not sure if you can directly compare a Plymouth to a Pontiac. Pontiacs were noticeably more luxurious and more expensive too.
    You are correct that the Roadrunner was a big success it's first couple of years.
    But that car was stripped down to the bare bones.
    And had a price too match. I'm talking bench seat, rubber floormats, etc.
    I think the smaller ponycars had a bigger impact on GTO sales.
    Camaro, Mustang, Cuda, Nova etc.
    Lighter weight was a bigger factor in low E.T,s than big HP.
    The smaller cars were cheaper too and were sportier than the midsize offerings.
  • ezraponezrapon Member Posts: 348
    Goats did start out pretty stripped down. The 64 tempest was pretty lowly. Only the Nova was nastier. You are right though, I believe the gto run was short and mostly folk lore. I belive Chey was doing some quick little chevelles with 370 HP 327/350's and some potent big blocks that NO gto could ever touch. Lets not forget the 442 and gs 455. I think there were some Hemi R/T's around back in the day too. GTO may have started something but it was on top for only a year or two at best. 1967 was pretty much the end of the bad boys....too much competion and too much complacency; that was the real killer of the GTO.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,369
    with help from the U.S. Congress (emissions regulations). They killed all the muscle cars, large and small.

    Then OPEC administered the coup de Grace in 1973.

    by 1974 it was all over for the Goat, the RRunner, the real Mustang, the Malibu SS, the 442, the 'Cuda....

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • obiwanobiwan Member Posts: 57
    There is one vehicle I'd love from the 70's or early 80's. A Jeep CJ7. But I already have a 1984 model getting a ground up rebuild. Of course, the 4 cyl is coming out and a freshly rebuild AMC 360 is going in it's place. But that's my other hobby.

    A lot of things killed the muscle cars. Emissions, insurance, styling. They all played a part in the demise of American muscle.
  • blh7068blh7068 Member Posts: 375
    "Try to remember a good looking American automobile from 1973. You can't because there isn't one."

    73/74 Trans Am SD-455 comes to mind real quick...
This discussion has been closed.