Pontiac GTO

joey2brix · November 2003

The old firebird and camaro were down to less then 30K units/year which is a money looser for GM. I also think GM would prefer not to offer a $4K cash back on a car as soon as it's introduced!
(Like the new Malibu will suffer.) Better to get full list on a model with a tight supply.

jpstax · November 2003

The GTO's price is no where near as high as the Holden Commodore SS, and both cars appear to have the same engine (LS1):

http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/modeloverview?modelid=- - 4005&useraccessmode=success#disclaimer

qbrozen · November 2003

actually, that's right about the same price given the conversion of the australian dollar to american dollar. Comes out to $35,500.

jq3 · November 2003

GM took an automotive ledgend and screwed it up, except for the motor. The '04 GTO looks like a Gran Prix!!!

For cryin' out loud there are some idiots at GM. Why, Why, Why not build the GTO with a more aggressive look! What is the point of the low budget look?! How could they mess this up? HOW? HOW? HOW?

I gotta go, I am simply fuming with the way GM dropped the ball...again. They should just stick to building trucks and the Vette because none of their cars inspire excitement, especially the new GTO!!!

AAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!

JQ3

andys120 · November 2003

tell us how you really feel.

rjs200240 · November 2003

jq3: "The '04 GTO looks like a Gran[d] Prix!!!"

I thought they ruined the first GTO too. The damn thing looked just like a LeMans...

cougar67 · November 2003

Well, as the owner of a 1998 Grand Prix GTP coupe, bought equally for looks and performance, I don't think that the resemblance to the (1997 thru 2003) GP is a bad thing. Although, I do like the side profile of the GP better.

I had been seriously considering the GTO, but since I found out how they shrunk the trunk (for the exhaust, gas tank safety, or whatever), I have had second thoughts. I need a good-sized trunk, and the GTO just doesn't cut it, especially when you consider that it is NOT a small car. Oh, well...

kevin111 · November 2003

gordonwd -

"The problem is that GM has some sort of agreement with the UAW about importing complete cars from overseas (i.e., non-UAW/CAW countries). So they're holding down the number so as to not tick off the union."

There are also U.S. import restrictions on importing assembled vehicles from other countries. The reason many foreign automobile manufacturers assemble vehicles in North America is to get around these tarrifs and restrictions. Since this car is being built outside North America, there is a chance it will be imposed to these types of restrictions.

obiwan · November 2003

Many of us who didn't want to drive around in a car looking like a boy racer in gold chains and a mullet have been crying for this car for a very long time.

We now have a domestic automaker producing a car that is:

A) Reaonably priced (compared to anything with the same room, interior quality and performance)

Roomy enough for 4 full sized adults

C) Styled for adults who want performance in a car that doesn't scream out "I'm going through a midlife crisis".

The original GTO was never a great styling masterpiece. When it was introduced in 1964, it was just an option on a bland midsize Pontiac car. When GM introduced the flowing C pillar design of the late 60's, the GTO followed. Sure, compared to cars today that are styled after a used bar of soap, the 60's cars are dramatic and sylish. But back then they weren't all that.

I'd like to see a row of GM cars (LeMans, GTO, Cutlass, Chevelle, etc.) with all their badges and identifying stripes removed. Then I'd like to take a bunch of people by and see if they can identify which car is which. I bet you over 75% of the people wouldn't be able to.

Because they were all bland midsize GM coupes back then.

How is the new GTO really any different?

Hot engine + Bland midsize car = GTO

Always has been. Always will be.

garnes · November 2003

Good post, although I don't think it's all that bland or poorly styled. The way some people are puking here you'd think it looks like a Crown Vic. Come on. I haven't seen one yet, but I suspect the deeply curved fenders look pretty cool and pictures generally lose their effect.

I could go for a few more curves, but I'd much rather be short a few than have too many. Yes, the "hey look at me" styling of previous Pontiac performance and some current imports is something I'm happy to avoid.

I love the idea of a large comfortable car with a mean V8 that can roast the tires, and pummel the latest batch of over-hyped V6's. All the while still handling extremely well and delivering good fuel economy too.

jeffhall76 · November 2003

I just read the Edmunds review of the GTO and really enjoyed the article (as usual). However, I am mystified as to why the article did not mention the Cadillac Catera, the car that shares the same basic platform on which the GTO is based. This Opel Omega (Catera) platform was shortened for the Holden Monaro/GTO. Also, the issue of the high quality materials found on the inside was mentioned in Edmunds own reviews of the Catera back in 2000-2001. The Catera and GTO have distinct non-GM-like cheap, nasty, plasticky materials. If you've never seen the interior of a Catera (00-01 especially), you will see it has nothing in common with typical US GM interiors (thank goodness). Edmunds rightfully praised this in its review a few years ago.

Lastly, the article says the last GM car to not have the name of the company on it (ex: "Pontiac") was the Oldsmobile Aurora. The 2000 and 2001 Catera models do not have the word "Cadillac" written anywhere on the car. So that's 2!

Just small corrections, but I had to voice them. Let's just hope the GTO doesn't have the horrible initial quality that the 1997 and 1998 Catera suffered from.

Jeff
Tampa, FL
2000 Cadillac Catera Sport

goody4 · November 2003

And look what happened to those last two GM cars not to have it's make printed somewhere on the outside of the car.

If the GTO was to fail, it obviously wouldn't be for that reason. But, sending over a ten-year chassis design might be a problem. Who knows?

Certainly, GM could put a little more effort into R&D, and come up with something fresh. However, rebadging models seems to have worked for GM for 40 years, so why fix it if it ain't broke?

qbrozen · November 2003

Why should it be one or the other?? Why not both good looks and power?

montanafan · November 2003

Aztek dosen't have Pontiac on it, unless you get the optional aluminum wheels where the name Pontiac is on the center caps.

andys120 · November 2003

Neither in the styling nor the motor department, IMO. I'' reserve judgement on Goat styling until I've actually seen one.

goody4 · November 2003

I'll agree to disagree here. The Marauder looks absolutely menacing. I dig its styling. The thing weighs two-and-a-half tons. The motor does a very good job considering. But, I've read owners are underwhelmed with the car's performance.

Nothing a little aftermarket can't cure.

rctennis3811 · November 2003

if u dont like the GTO's styling, then DONT BUY IT!!! but GM did announce that next year the hoodscoop will be standard

jq3 · November 2003

I agree with qbrozen, why can't the consumer have both, looks and power? Why is it that people accept mediocrity, when they're paying $30,000+ for a vehicle? GM can give both don't be "hood-winked" and "led a stray"!

IMHO, the GTO will not age well. Have you seen the older Grand Prix's? Talk about looking outdated! Some of you accept the styling of the GTO and I totally respect your opinions. But, as for me I'll take ctennis3811's advice, "DON'T BUY IT!!!" For those of you who defend its bland, generic and cheap looks...GO BUY IT!!

graphicguy · November 2003

I'm not particualrly fond of the looks of the GTO either (in either guise...as the Manaro in Australia or the U.S. GTO). But you can't argue the fact that for $34K you can get a taste of 'vette performance with great seats and suspension bits.

If the General did a total redesign instead of an update of a current design, I doubt they could have hit that price point.

rctennis3811 · November 2003

also, if u dont like the styling, they consider this: the Monaro is built on a design (Holden Commodore/Berlina/Calais) from 1998 in Australia...remember the Catera??? thats what its partially built on!!!!!!!!!!!

b4z · November 2003

This may quiet all of the people who think the new GTO is too plain looking.

Not all old GTo's were hot.
Very cool car, just not as sporty as we remember them.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2444114059&category=7244

revdrluv · November 2003

I generally like this new GTO. The styling is clean and the performance is outstanding. It's the first Pontiac in decades that I would consider owning. Pontiac is finally getting some models that help it live up to it's stated purpose, to be the sporty side of GM.

Although, I can see how one could wish that Pontiac had showcased a new design direction with it's new halo model. Instead it looks like, well a member of Pontiac's current model range. Which is fine, but a little unexciting.

I guess we will have to wait for the Soltice to see the new direction of Pontiac design.

andys120 · November 2003

the only thing plain about that '68 GTO could be fixed with the addition of a nice set of wheels like the optional Rally II wheels and some big white letter tires( like those worn by my old GT0).

Given those additions (which were more common than not on the old ones I don't think many would consider a '68 GTO coupe plain, then or now.

b4z · November 2003

Which was the whole point of my post:

The new GTO can have wheel, spoilers, hood scoops, added and look as muscular as any older GTO.

In the same way the Tempest/Lemans had things added to make it look sportier.

qbrozen · November 2003

first of all, why should that quiet anyone? Who cares what the old one looked like? The old one also weighed a helluva lot more and handled like a steamship. Does that mean the new one should do the same?

2nd of all, that '68 is NOT plain in my book. Just look at that hood. Can you add something like that to the new one? Sure. I could also cram an LS6 into a hyundai and spank this GTO. But why spend that kind of time and money when I could get something else straight from the factory that can do the job? If I gotta look at a new car and think about what I'll do to it BEFORE I even buy it, then its not worth buying, in my opinion.

and 3rdly, I think the complaints about the new one are more to the fact that it looks like a plain old grand prix, not necessarily that it in itself is plain. It just does nothing to distinguish itself from the other Pontiacs on the showfloor.

b4z · November 2003

I reread my post and can't figure why I am being criticized for it.

Thought you guys would be interested in looking at a low option, plain jane survivor.

I felt the overall tone of my post was positive for both the new and old.

The GTO has been my favorite musclecar since I was 12. Tried to buy my neighbor's '70 Judge in 1983 and my next door neighbor's '72 GTO in 1980.

I sometimes wonder why I continue to participate in these forums.

graphicguy · November 2003

The history if the GTO was one of taking a plain, mundane car and turning it into a "barn burner".

That's what Pontiac did. They originially took the "plain Jane" LEmans and John DeLorean stuffed a "honkin", high output V8 in it. That was the birth of the muscle car.

Fast forward to today. Pontiac takes a plain Jane, kind of Grand Prix sort of car and stuffs a "honkin" 'vette engine in it.

Same principle....same result!

tomcat630 · November 2003

Totally agree with above. 'Part time' car fans forget that the GTO was not a unique bodied car like the Mustang or the F's.

The 64-73's looked like the rest of the LeMans's, which in fact looked like "any other Pontiac". (not counting the Judges).

qbrozen · November 2003

again, who cares? why should this follow suit of the old one? If that is the case, then why are they making this one faster and handle better than the old one? If you want history, then you'd better throw about 500 lbs. in the trunk of this new GTO before you go out cruising. Oh, and, by the way, the DIDN'T take a grand prix and stuff a v8 into it. They took a Holden Monaro and made it LOOK like a Grand Prix. So they really aren't following the original equation at all.

b4z - you aren't being "criticized" for it, but if that's how you feel and you want to post your thoughts without any feedback whatsoever, then why DO you participate in forums?? That IS kind of the whole point, is it not?? I thought it was great that you posted that link. I love seeing it, but you also said you thought it should shut people up about the looks of the new one. That ain't gonna happen.

b4z · November 2003

Point taken.

graphicguy · November 2003

"If that is the case, then why are they making this one faster and handle better than the old one?"

Because they can!

In all seriousness, I would have loved some styling cues from the "old" Lemans/GTO. But, the whole "retro" thing is a hit or miss gambit (hit = PT Cruiser, miss = Thunderbird) Fact is, from the get go Pontiac (more to the point, Lutz) said they wanted to revive the spirit of the original. I think that's what they did.

They took an old idea, updated it with today's modern design and power advances and brought out a car that, if not everybody's cup of tea, is one of the performance stars in all of "cardom".

Come to think of it, they did the same exact thing they did over 3 decades ago with the original.

andys120 · November 2003

that Pontiac put certain clues into the original GTO to separate it from the Garden variety LeMans
These clues were actually subtle. At a glance
many would think they were looking at a LeMans (which like the Goat could be plain or quite deluxe).

Except for the wing (which BTW I don't like) the
new Goat could use a little more differentiation from the garden variety GPs and Bonnies.

B4z, I misinterpreted the term "plain" in your post. In fact it is correct to say that that was a "plain Jane GTO for it's era.

qbrozen · November 2003

still on that whole "repeat of history" idea, remember what they were competing with back then. Its just not the same today. The original GTO was a big fish in a small pond. Now the pond is immense. There are so many other choices out there these days that this sort of concept just doesn't win over drivers like it used to. Don't get me wrong, I still think its great. But something as simple as the style could tilt the scales in favor of a G35, RX8, or whatever the flavor of the month is at that point in time.

Modern design? hardly. That design is already 7 model years old (body-wise). That's ancient in terms of today's constantly evolving marketplace and fickle consumers.

garnes · November 2003

I wonder how many people here have actually seen the car for real.

b4z · November 2003

That's okay.

i would expect them to start arriving in the dealerships in the next 2 weks.

graphicguy · November 2003

I have seen one....I saw it at the International Auto Show in Detroit last January. The design cues from the GP are more than subtle. Interior design is a quantum leap ahead of where Pontiac is today, however.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2003

Old muscle cars generate a LOT of excitement at car shows and auctions. People salivate. I think GM is trying to capitalize on that and if possible re-create a level of excitement like that for their new models. They aren't trying to recreate the past car itself, but rather recreate the past excitement.

andys120 · November 2003

They revived the GTO name for a reason. I'm convinced that in a couple of years there will be more design excitement in the GTO. Let's hope they don't get carried away.

If I were GM's design chief I'd tell my GTO guys to take a lesson from Pininfarina. In 1968 they figured out away to show the Ferrari look in a new way without using cliched "surface excitement.

They were leapfrogging ahead whilst across the ocean GM's guys were copying the '62 Ferrari GTO
(Corvette C3)

revdrluv · November 2003

Hey, at least Pontiac understyled this one rather than the other way 'round. It could have all those tacky bumps and ridges like other current Pontaic designs. I'll take the former anyday.

I would love to see a four door version. A Pontiac giving the big boy sedans from BMW, Mercedes and Jaguar a run for their money, I love it. Of course that would hurt sales for the CTS-V so it will never happen.

Interesting comparo...

Length:
GTO  189.8
CTS-V  194.5

Width:
GTO  72.5
CTS-V  70.6

Weight:
GTO  3725
CTS-V  3847

Horsepower:
GTO  350
CTS-V  400

Torque:
GTO  365 lbs-ft
CTS-V  395 lbs-ft

0-60:
GTO  5.3
CTS-V  4.6

Price:
GTO  31k
CTS-V  49k

Old Omega platform vs. new with same basic powerplant (minus tuning). Seems like GM has done a pretty good job keeping these cars different enough in performance to keep the CTS-V looking like the top dog in the range.

b4z · November 2003

Saw in C & D that the new 6 series is almost identical to the GTO in lenght weight and 0-60 times.
There are so close that it would be a perfect comparison test.
Oh yeah, the BMW is $70,000!!

rctennis3811 · November 2003

i dont see why everyone is "baggin" on the new GTO, i think its a great compromise between performance, luxury, AND styling..so please, stop the hatin!

orwoody · November 2003

Personally I can't wait to drive a new GTO. Having grown up in the days of muscle cars, they had great straight line acceleration, but not so good handling. I've always loved the "sleeper" look, like the 1970-72 Buick Gran Sport.... a little bit of a parallel to the old GTO. Based on what I've read the price is not too out of line for what one gets with the new GTO.
I'm really looking forward to the feel of those seats... a real 2 + 2

deadphoenix · November 2003

Ive done my research on the car and I can see that, yes this goat can perform and yes it has a bit of luxury. BUT I have to speak my mind on the styling.... Pontiac did not follow in GTO tradition. The original goat, evolved from a tempest, had a character that made it stand out from the other muscle cars of the day... I gotta ask now, when driving past this goat on the highway would you recognize it or mistake it for an acura integra, a grand prix... perhaps a new dodge stratus or neon srt??? THe fact is that Pontiac followed suit with the current trend of styling and figured that it didnt matter. Id hate to say it but FORD IS DOING IT RIGHT. WHen it comes to retro styling anyways. The T-Bird looks like an old Tbird and the new mustand to come out looks like a 60's stang. this GTO is not what it should be, it doesnt resemble its heritage. Pontiac should have taken the monte carlo from the chevy division and molded it to look like a 67 Goat with vertical head lights, the hood scoop and a sloped rear end with the goat tail lights. then pontiac would have something to sell. But for now, we'll have a bunch of american integras owning the street calling themselves muscle cars and only wishing that they could hold as much character and heritage as the original goat. GIVE ME A 67 ANYDAY!

qbrozen · November 2003

rev - you have a very good point there about not making it look like some of the hideous pontiacs of recent years.

rctennis3811 - Not sure many folks here "hate" it. I think its more to the point of not loving it. Its just not the kind of car that makes me think "wow! I GOTTA have that!!"

b4z - i was just reading about the 6 in autoweek. somebody already borrowed it in my office, though, so this is from memory... but they mentioned how, to get it down to that weight, the frame is aluminum and the hood and trunk are plastic! Really doesn't give me much confidence. Ok, so even if the 6 stands up in a crash, can you imagine the repair bill?? "sorry, sir, we can't rework the body, we need to buy a whole new one." Yikes!

deadphoenix - not everyone likes new cars with retro style.

b4z · November 2003

So what you are saying is that pontiac should have taken a FWD Monte Carlo(or GP for that matter) with a 3.8L V6 and called it a GTO?

Ford is hardly doing it right. The Thunderbird has been canceled due to poor sales.

b4z · November 2003

I saw it in autoweek too, not c & D.
Length is 190 inches weight is 3725lbs and 0-60 is 5.5 secs with 325 hp.

qbrozen · November 2003

amazing that it still weighs that much considering what i mentioned before. where they heck do they put it all?

graphicguy · November 2003

Good point....no one hates the styling. Fact is, no one really loves it either...kind of automotive styling "limbo".

As a previous owner of a '67 GTO (spent every dime I had at the time I bought it used), you wouldn't have been able to tell it from a run of the mill Lemans if it weren't for the GTO emblems and the hood scoop.

I would have liked a bit of "retro" in the new GTO. Maybe some "slotted" rear lights (like in the '66 GTO) or the big dual "ovoid" grill treatment like in the '67. Maybe even the flat real wood dash like they originally had.

retro styling is a tough nut in many cases. As mentioned before, Ford "could have" had a hit with the Thunderbird. In fairness to the Thunderbird, I think the styling was OK. Where Ford got into trouble was with its driving dynamics and the hit and miss interior. I wanted to buy one. Having a test drive, it really didn't feel very sporty. Plus, it was a little "weak kneed" in the performance dept.

That's something that won't plague the GTO from what I read.

As Q pointed out, there are a bunch of good cars that are playing in that space today like the 350Z, RX8, G35c, etc. They are all roughly in the same price range, too. That wasn't the case when the original GTO prowled the streets.

I do want to see the GTO succeed. Only time will tell.....

b4z · November 2003

Dealers have a way of killing new car launches with their "market adjustments".
They can ask whatever they want but they are sacrificing long term business relationships for short term gain.

Thunderbird: $4000 market adjustment.
Status: production ending.

Ford Focus SVT: $3995 market adjustment.
status: production ending.

Hope Pontiac dealers can get the dollar signs out of their eyes and don't kill the goat that laid the golden egg.

white6 · November 2003

There are plenty of dealers that have agreed to sell at MSRP and no more. That said, I'm sure that there will be a plethora of Pontiac dealers with their $5,000 ADP (Additional Dealer Profit) mark-up stickers ready and waiting.
I still don't really get the Grand Prix comparison... the only thing that even remotely resembles Grand Prix is the front grill shape. And that's got to be there, since it's a Pontiac trademark! Truth is, that's the only significant styling difference between the GTO and the Monaro. I hardly think the Aussies styled their Monaro to look like a Pontiac Grand Prix. Also, the 2004 Monaro is only three model years old. I know the chassis started life as the Omega/Catera, but in this highly updated incarnation has few parts that have not been replaced or altered.

Pontiac GTO

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles