Pontiac GTO

bxd20 · January 2004

Agree mostly. The spread will not be $9k if you load the Mustang up completely (leather seats and any other luxury packages). Also no IRS on the Mustang. For your extra $6000 you get a nicer built/sounding V8, IRS, and exclusivity. To some its worth it, to others its not.

Thing to remember is, by the time the 05 Mustang GT is out, so will the 05 GTO. And that will be faster and likely gain even more of a luxury edge over the Mustang.

The GTO will sell, not like hotcakes but it will make money for GM.

Brian

crispiegee · January 2004

SnakerBill,

Im interested in both the GTO and Mustang (see my bulleted comparison on page 43, post #841). I think both cars have strengths, so I am looking at each in an unbiased way to ensure that I buy the best car for my tastes. Your comments, however, are mostly based on brand loyalty and are riddled with holes.

Consider some of your complaints:

 Gas tank location: The GTOs reinforced gas tank is mounted far forward in the trunk to ensure that it doesnt rupture in a collision. Check blueovalnews.com if you want to learn how unsafe the current Mustang is  in a rear-end collision, the rear-mounted tank can easily rupture and roast occupants, even in low-speed collisions.

 A six-speed transmission has nothing to do with torque and everything to do with fuel mileage. The GTO is rated at 29 hwy, which exceeds the 25 hwy figure for the Stang. (And the Goat has a liter more displacement!)

 You state that an OHC engine is better than a pushrod engine. Based on what? Although I have not been a GM fan in the past, the 5.7 has rock-solid reliability, tremendous horsepower, and a willingness to rev. So an OHC engine is better in what way? From what Ive seen on blueovalnews, the Ford 4.6 has had quite a number of problems in various model years, including head gaskets, warped heads (Cobra), valve ticking and other problems.

You make good points with regard to the Mustangs use of regular grade fuel (about a 12% price difference, though, not 20%), and the price difference. The rest of your statements are opinions which you present as fact, and even at that, they are extremely uninformed.

I'm still undecided on which car to buy ('05 Mustang or '05 GTO), but at least TRY to keep things factual.

blh7068 · January 2004

"The GTO will sell, not like hotcakes but it will make money for GM."

At 18,000 copies/year for the next 3 years it wont have to sell like "hotcakes". My guess is they will all sell and no incentives will be required to move 'em.

ezrapon · January 2004

Excellent reply. Good insight lots of non-delusional facts. If time is not an issue, perhaps the 5 seat GPX might suit you better. Insiders say it will eventually have the 300 hp northstar. I too have an issue with the 4 seat capacity. I sold my 2000 SSEi in anticipation of the GTO or GXP, but now like the 300 c Hemi layout. The odd looks an previously questionable build quality are issues. Perhaps the 300c and GTO might be closer to apples and apples; not a mustang.

czkf1 · January 2004

The manual trans 2004 GTO gas mileage looks pretty good.

The automatic 2004 GTO has a guzzler tax (freeway).

The 2004 Mustang Mach1 automatic ( but flashy) has no guzzler tax, MSRP is $30,575, no IRS (only $2k less than GTO, $32,495).

The GM and Ford engines are both basically pretty good, although they put a cast crank in the DOHC Mach1 automatic car.

The 2004 Mach1 is about 300 pounds lighter & six inches shorter than the 2004 GTO.

The new 2005 Mustang looks much nicer than the 2004 mustang.

The mustang gas tank is on the bottom, between the bumper and rear axle, not real safe, if the bumper hits the tank. The 2004 GTO gas tank is more isolated for crashes. The mustang gas tank is in the same location area as part of the IRS trailing arms on the 2004 GTO.

mustang_svt · January 2004

blah blah blah. I love 'em all. Already have the cobra and now I'll take a GTO for a well-rounded education.

qbrozen · January 2004

I do not know about the 66, but to put a gas tank in the trunk is stupid.

you DO know. I just told you. Its in the trunk.

But I am curious. If it was not in the trunk in the '68, then just where did the fuel filler neck run? Its in the same location as the '65-67, which was in the center of the rear panel under the trunk lid. The fuel filler neck ran right down into the gas tank, which was right there under the trunk. So where did it run in '68? You mean to tell me that the neck ran down from the rear panel through the trunk, made a 90 degree turn, ran all the way under the trunk to in front of the rear axle? I find that odd. I'm not saying its not true. Just making an observation.

imonty · January 2004

fbrussee asks what we get in Australia. We get a Monaro through Holden which can be 4 speed auto or 6 speed manual, rear spoiler is an option, so is sunroof (it opens to three quarter only), 18" wheels are standard but 19" are option. You can get SatNav as well. We can also buy it through HSV but they don't call it a Monaro, they have GTO (not the same as yours,) soon there will be a GTS a hotter version, Coupe LE which has more a luxury pack and then we will soon have the Coupe4 which is the All Wheel Drive version. These are all more powerful and have better brakes than the Monaro. If you want look at www.holden.com.au and www.hsv.com.au for all specs. The talk here is that a convertible is on the cards but I would think it would be in 2006. Our Commodore (from which the Monaro evolved) is due for a major update in 2006 so I guess it will be a concurrent thing and being worked on now so security will be tight. I haven't heard of anything regarding HUDs or the like, but will keep my ears open. Holden are very good at keeping secrets until they are good and ready to let out "ticklers" of info. I think we should start hearing things around Sept.
I'm glad to see some of the reactions to the GTO. It is confronting to get an import with a revered local name but judge it for what it is a great car.
Re Exploding gas tanks. I haven't heard of any Monaros catching on fire from rear shunts (ours have the fuel tank under the trunk). We have only seemed to have had any fires when people started spiking our fuel with ethanol. Otherwise it is rare to hear of fires in anything other than catastrophic crashes. Now that the ethanol problem has been solved no more fires (think flashpoints).
Hope this info is what you were after
Cheers

fbrussee · January 2004

I'd predict we'd get the sunroof and the bigger wheels and tires for '05, not a lot more except some stripe packages, maybe a ram air hood for the upcoming 'Judge' package or whatever they'll call it. I'm frustrated because by the time my '04 arrives, the '05 version updates will be well known, and likely dealers will be discounting more as well. Sounds like it's gonna be '07 before we see major changes...but I had heard the GTO was a three year ONLY program, so maybe in '07 our GTO will be called a Monaro...with deep discounting to match!!!

midwesttrader · January 2004

The snake may not get his facts right but he sure can stir things up can't he?

Two quick points:
1) with premium gas at $1.80/gal here and going higher the GTO will be a very expensive everyday driver
2) I also saw it at the St Louis auto show. The styling just did not grab me. I know many like the "low key" look but the car just has no character of its own. Maybe the '05 will be an improvement. The interior was very nice except for the lack of full instrumentation.

crispiegee · January 2004

While the styling of the GTO may not be as sharp as my favorite coupe (the BMW 330), I think it will wear well with ownership. Here's why I think so: When I bought my '97 Avenger new in November of '96, I found the styling to be pleasant -- not gorgeous, just pleasant. Now, seven years later, I still look at it and say, "It's a nice looking car."

I understand what MidWestTrader is saying, though. When I saw the Mustang at the Detroit auto show a few weeks ago, its styling REALLY grabbed me. It's a really neat car.

I'm sure I'll be happy with either car, which puts my mind at ease.

EZRAPON, I too looked at the 300C, at the urging of a friend of mine from Chrysler. It looks like a really good value for the money, although the tank-like look is just not me. Anyway, I want a COUPE with a MANUAL transmission. C'mon Chrysler! Get with the program!

crispiegee · January 2004

I've read some criticism of the GTO's weight, and frankly, I wish it was weighed less than it does. Somehow, the Mustang seems like it would be a more sporty car to drive because of its lower weight. (I know, I know -- solid rear axle... but that's not the end of the world!)

On the other hand, I have read that the Aussies have built the GTO to be a very sturdy car. This is appealing to me, since years of pothole abuse in my Northern climate has a way of beating up a car's chassis. (My Avenger has new ball joints, new rear struts, new front wheel bearings, etc...)

If the reason for the GTO's substantial weight is because they used beefy parts, then I am okay with that. Just wanted to share that...

Kirstie_H · January 2004

The last thing we need is statements made purely to provoke other members. There are enough real trolls around without attempting to mimic them.

Let's end the personal comments here. Any further posts along this line will be deleted. Thanks.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

ezrapon · January 2004

I live in St. Louis and I've read numerous post about people seeing the GTO on a pedestal not to be touched. Most st. louis dealers have them on lots and in the show room. You can touch them feel them, the whole bit. Had it not been for snowy roads I could have drove one (I did buy several cars from this dealership).

mustang_svt · January 2004

Do you get a lot of bugs in your teeth on that Yamaha?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2004

Posts concerning name-calling and off-topic issues have been deleted.

MrShiftright
Host

imonty · January 2004

midwesttrader does not know how lucky you guys are. we pay USD3.45 a gallon at least for PULP. Normal unleaded is around USD3.25. So we get either way. Guess if we want to run fast cars we have to earn more!

imonty · January 2004

I think you will get the changes at pretty well the same time we will. I would think the major update will be designed with the fuel tank in a place to comply with US regs. Also the Monaro name will be used in England when they get it as a Vauxhall later this year.

czkf1 · January 2004

Does anyone know if the 2004 GTO uses "drive by wire" (DBW) technology, yet? I am sure GM will move to it someday.

I just noticed that the new 2005 Mustang will be using DBW, yuck.

Audi has been using DBW for several years now. Their throttle has a nasty habit of waiting 1-2 seconds, before actually applying the throttle, but only sometimes, usually, when the delay will cause driver errors.

I hope GM & Ford makes the DBW response quicker and predictable. The Audi system is terrible, especially on the Tiptronic (Automatic cars).

Don

qbrozen · January 2004

DBW was supposed to improve throttle response, not hurt it. I guess it all depends on how its implemented? I really have no clue, just going off what I've read in the trade rags.

tripowergto · January 2004

Thankfully, GTO is NOT drive by wire. Talk about removing the thrill factor of throttling through a corner. Although maybe it adds to the thrill if it doesn't engage correctly at that critical moment, YIKES! Also while premium fuel is recommended for maximum performance, regular can be run without hurting anything but the computer will adjust performance for the lower octane just like the F-bodies.

crispiegee · January 2004

I don't know if I've ever driven a DBW car, but I have long felt that fuel injected cars don't have a natural throttle response. The manufacturers set the throttle "tip in" to be way too aggressive, which is supposed to emphasize the car's power. I hate it. To the Pontiac guys reading this: Give me LINEAR throttle response!

Here's an idea: DRIVER SELECTABLE throttle response. You could have Normal, Sport and Winter driving modes. I think one of the European car makers does this, although maybe I'm just thinking of the transmission shift points.

BenJorden: As far as the hosts go, they were correct to delete the offending posts. Although I pride myself on being eloquent (even when I rip someone apart), I really shouldn't have descended to the other person's level. Apologies to all.

qbrozen · January 2004

while i think your post might and should be deleted, i will comment anyway. the reason for the hosts deleting off-topic posts and especially posts that bring the intelligence level down several notches by resorting to name-calling is to keep Edmunds a mature discussion site and not allow it to degrade to yet another car site frequented by adolescents who think that foul language is the best thing since sliced bread and topics should be taken on a 5-page tangent. Places like those effectively drive out anyone looking for a REAL and THOUGHTFUL conversation about cars they are interested in.

qbrozen · January 2004

My Volvo has Normal/Sport/Winter. You're right, the main goal of the modes is to change shift points. But it does also change the response of the car. I'm really not sure of all the fine details, however. I've never been able to figure out if it just responds better because it selects a lower gear to get going quicker or if the ECU map is actually different in the different modes. I tend to think so, but can't prove it.

cougar67 · January 2004

So...the Monaro is available with a sunroof/moonroof. That really means GM had no excuse not to offer one, it would seem, even though they were rushing the GTO to market. Hopefully, in 2005.

Trunk - I understand the reasons for moving the tank into the front of the trunk. But...the Monaro trunk, I understand, is far bigger, while I believe the tank to be of similar size (anyone know for sure?). When they moved the tank to the GTO's location, what did they do with the space where the tank is in the Monaro? Could they not have expanded the GTO trunk into that area?

benjordan2 · January 2004

Not my point at all. They were getting mad about people saying my car is better than yours.. I think it is a good thing. I understand the swearing, and name calling, but it is fun and educational to discuss why a car is better than another. Snakerbill has shown me alot about the stang, and I hope I taught him a thing or two about the GTO. But the GTO is the best...LOL

Mr_Shiftright · January 2004

Deletions were strictly for name calling, not opinions. We cannot line-edit posts. If you flame someone with one word, you lose all the words in your post unfortunately. So be careful, be courteous at all times and you won't have to write with disappearing ink!

thank you

Host

b4z · January 2004

I think you did that just so you could get the 1,000th post.
LOL.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2004

Heh heh...you give me too much credit. I could delete it and give YOU the 1000th if i were kind and generous, but I'm not, so.....

v8lincolnguy · February 2004

Hasn't the Vette been drive by wire since 1997? Haven't heard many complaints from owners or the press about a lack of throttle response. More and more newer cars seem to be going to it.

I have yet to see a GTO on the roads or a dealer's lot, but I checked it out on the Pontiac website and sampled the audio clip of the engine running. SWEET!!! Nothing like the burble of a big, American V8 engine. If I could afford them both(along with the gas and the insurance) a black GTO(with the red interior) sure would nicely compliment my Lincoln LS V8.

b4z · February 2004

Both dealer's here in Charleston, SC have them.
Saw a black/red/6M Friday.
I liked the car a lot.
At 6'8" I can fit in it!
Interior is a 3-400% improvement over a Camaro.
Much better materials and design.

The car is not palin at all. Just very stealthy.
It has an incredible stance to it.
Very little void over the tires.

I would probably remove the spoiler and have the wheels polished if I bought 1.

Problem is the dealer has a 38K sticker on it.
They must like it a lot.
When I can buy one under 30K I might bite.

I hope it is very successful and that dealer's greed does not cause slow sales.

benjordan2 · February 2004

Stop petting the goat at your local car dealer and just buy the car, you'll love it. Unless you feel you want more power wait for The Judge.

benjordan2 · February 2004

Let me tell you about the first time I drove the "GOAT". After many years of staring at my dad's 64 GTO (thats not to be drove)I was thrilled when I was signing for my new 2004 GTO. Let me tell you the drive home was the best. Many black patches left. I gave the dealership a little show as I pulled out onto the road with tires roaring. I could feel my stomach drop down to my feet, wow what a feeling. Thinks Pontiac for a great car.. I love it.

v8lincolnguy · February 2004

I wouldn't worry about dealer's greed hurting the car too much. The beauty of the free market system is there will be another somewhere else that is willing to sell the car for little or no mark-up. And unlike many luxury brands, there are plenty of Pontiac dealers around. I wouldn't expect many big discounts on the GTO simply due to it's limited production and great appeal at current price, but there might eventually be small rebate or discount offered. Right now though, I wouldn't expect to pay much below MSRP. The GTO looks to be pretty nicely equipped as is and while I certainly don't expect it to be a luxo-cruiser, I would like to see a couple of small extra features like auto climate control, memory seat and mirrors, XM radio option, and heated seats made available. Otherwise, the new Goat is a pretty darn appealing car.

mustang_svt · February 2004

I've been reading the posts on here about people having a hard time finding GTO's available and so I started doing a little research. Within a 50 mile radius of my house are 24 Pontiac dealerships. In the last 2 weeks, 3 GTO's have sold and one dealer traded to another dealer - and he still has it. As of this posting, 20 dealers within this radius have 39 GTO's available - 23 Automatics and 16 Manuals. Most of this inventory was available when I started tracking 2 weeks ago. Maybe its the weather and these things will move out in the spring but its sure looking bleak for the dealers right now.

I felt out 2 dealers to see where they were on price - no surprise that both were firm at MSRP. The kicker was on the trade. An AWD 2000 Safari SLE with 39,000 as equipped TMV'd here for $9500 (Trade-In). One dealer gave me $7500 and the other was $8500. Both had a "take it or leave it" attitude. I left it.

qbrozen · February 2004

How are you "tracking" inventory? online or are you actually calling dealerships? If its online, that method is never accurate.

As far as your trade, your best bet is to run it by Terry on the REal-World Trade-in Values board here on Edmunds. But I can tell you that Edmunds trade-in TMV is usually wrong. Of course, if I was paying MSRP for a vehicle, I'd want more for my trade, too.

good luck in your search.

mustang_svt · February 2004

Predominantly tracking through gmbuypower. I agree that it can't be 100% accurate because I'm sure it isn't updated in real-time. I do believe that its updated regularly and should be reasonably accurate. My emails to two dealerships confirmed that my inventory info was accurate with them. Anyway, my only point is that despite my methods lacking 100% accuracy, the big picture is accurate - lots of slow moving inventory and that can only be good for you, me, and future discounting. :-)

qbrozen · February 2004

based on other coversations with dealers and salespeople here on Edmunds concerning tracking inventory, it has a propensity to show units that are in transit as well. So as soon as it goes through the factory line, it is in a dealer inventory according to the manufacturer tracking. But, in reality, it is weeks or months from actually being on the lot. Add that to the fact that when it leaves the lot to a buyer, there is a good deal of lag before the manufacturer tracking is updated with that, those numbers can be far off. But as long as you confirm with the dealership, then that is the most accurate way you can go.

msw13 · February 2004

I have looked into availability here in So. Cal., and all GTO's at the nearest dealer, have been spoken for. They only received 15 so far, and they tell me I can make a $500 refundable deposit for one in the next order. I got to drive a manual one at the GM Auto Show in motion last month, and it was impressive. I would love to get one soon, but I am paying three tuitions right now and that doesn't leave enough for a new GTO..:-(

midwesttrader · February 2004

I just received the latest Road & Track magazine and there were two uncomplimentary letters from readers comparing the styling of the new GTO to the Stratus and the Cavalier.

Somehow I don't think that's what Lutz and GM had in mind for a $30k sport coupe.

b4z · February 2004

Those 2 letters were from people who probably have not sen the car in person.

riez · February 2004

midwesttrader... Did you see the two letters in the current issue of Alien Abductee? They both indicate that the small grey aliens love the new GTO. They can't wait to get their hands on one, not to mention on the two R&T letter writers you mention. Reportedly Lutz has long been in contact with our ET friends.

montanafan · February 2004

Sure and after I let my subscrition to Alien Abductee expire. But at least I get to keep the flying saucer telephone as my free gift.

crispiegee · February 2004

Last night, at the Buffalo auto show, I heard several people say, "That's not a REAL GTO. That's an embarrassment." At first, it bothered me, but after that I realized that I will buy the car that suits me best, no matter what anyone else says.

The GTO may not set the world on fire with its looks, but to ME, it's attractive in a very understated way. I believe that a car's most important attribute is its construction and drivetrain, and from that standpoint, the Goat is a terrific car.

To draw a parallel: My '97 Avenger never set any styling trends, but seven years after purchasing it, I still like the looks a lot (and it's been a reliable car). So it was a good choice for me.

So, while some feel that the GTO has a similar shape to a Cavalier, you could also allege that a Hyundai Sonato looks like a Mercedes C-Class. Does that mean that a C320 isn't worth the extra money? Of course not! The Merc is a far better car, so the comparison is silly.

Styling is definitely important, but I believe vehicle engineering is even more important, and the GTO seems to have solid credentials in that department.

P.S. Hey Pontiac: Could you please put a smoother, short-throw shifter in it?

andys120 · February 2004

it's a double page spread picturing a black GTO nose on. It's the most flattering shot of the new Goat that I've seen yet, in the March '04 issue.

imonty · February 2004

I have been told that one of the test drivers has taken 5 secs of his best lap time around the Holden test track in the new coupe4 which is the 4WD version of the Monaro. Don't know whether they intend making the next Pontiac version avail in 4WD but it sounds like one great vehicle.

scscars · February 2004

Finally got to see a GTO up close and personal today while having my Bonneville serviced at the local Pontiac dealer. The interior is magnificent, and as nice as any S-Type Jaguar or 3-Series BMW. Exterior fit and finish is excellent. No unusual gaps in the body. The car looks as tight in person as it does in the various pictures I've seen. As GM's go, this is probably one of the higher quality cars that I've seen them come up with, even if it is from Australia and was derived from a German design.

This particular dealer is not marking the car up, and is selling it at sticker ($33,495 plus tax, title & license). My only regrets are that the salesman wouldn't let me sit in it, and the hood was locked, so I couldn't see that su-wheeet 5.7 Litre. Dang!

andys120 · February 2004

of dealers not understanding what motivates enthusiasts. What's the big deal about opening the hood? I'm sure just looking at the LS1 would sell some car-nuts.

v8lincolnguy · February 2004

So if they wouldn't even let you sit in the car or take a peek under the hood, what would it take to get a test drive? I don't get that mentality.

scscars · February 2004

My dealer's mentality on the two GTOs that he has really is strange. I asked him if the black GTO on the showroom floor or the red one sitting out on his lot (with a fresh 2" coat of snow on it and hemmed in between two Bonnevilles) were spoken for, and he mentioned that they weren't. That was surprising considering that so few GTOs will be built this year and that demand was pent-up.

Since this dealer seems to be so overprotective about people wanting to check the car out (but not overprotective when it comes to the weather, apparently), he may not be getting too many test drives or sales if the cars are being treated as museum pieces.

Pontiac GTO

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