Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego

rayainsw · August 2004

Ford Five Hundred (6-sp.) 29 hwy/21 city
Ford Five Hundred (CVT) 27 hwy/20 city
- Ford's Press Release last week.

Is this now correct and official?
The CVT is rated 2 mpg less hwy and 1 mpg less city than the 6 speed auto.?

- Ray
Finding this rather odd . . .

johnclineii · August 2004

and CVT and AWD: 19/26...

I wondered about that, too.

I thought the CVT was supposed to be fuel SAVING....

ANT14 · August 2004

In the way they are tested, these are the number's posted... in REAL WORLD driving as we all do, the number's will be much improved in the CVT version, over the 6 Speed version.

EPA has admitted it needs to overhaul the manner they test vehicles, since so many vehicles tested do not reflect the MPG posted.

fdcapt2 · August 2004

As far as people having, or not having common sense, why does Ford offer "just what people need" here in the USA, but when it comes to building better equipt cars around the world, they do it. Ford has 2 nice cars to be offered shortly. Why didn't they step up to the plate and really stomp the competition. Ford has always taken a back seat to foreign car makers. Just look at how long they beat the Taurus/Sable to death, and continue with the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis. Instead of really kicking some butt, they come out with an under-powered car that has a very basic option list. I for one am losing my faith in Ford, and I've been driving them forever. I can walk into a Honda or Toyota, or almost all non-US vehicle showrooms and see things that should have been part of the 500/Montego package. I really think Ford hasn't shown any "common sense" by continuing to let the rest of the auto world lead the way.

nvbanker · August 2004

Go to Amazon, fdcapt2, and buy an old used copy of CAR by Mary Walton. It will show you the 5 year process for the redesign of the Taurus that came out in 96, and how desperately they tried to make it better than the Camry - and it almost was.... Unfortunately, it was too radical in its appearance, and while certainly not a flop, it wasn't the success they were hoping for like the 86 Taurus was. How it went downhill from that point is another story, but if you read that book, you'll understand why it "seems" that Ford can't match the japanese competition, when actually, they could. They may have with the 500, we'll have to wait and see. But this could be exactly the wrong time to suppose that it's time to jump ship.

alpha01 · August 2004

Im kinda disappointed that with the smallish engine, and lowish power and torque, but using the 6 speed auto, the 500/Montego only post 21/29.

Toyota's 225hp/240lb ft. 3.3L w/5 speed auto posts 20/29 in the Camry, and Nissan's 3.5L posts 20/30 with the 5 speed auto in the Altima.

~alpha

ANT14 · August 2004

Let's keep in mind, the 500 weighs 500-600lbs more than those other vehicles. Imagine how much better such an engine/tranny combo would do in a vehicle smaller/lighter as those mentioned.

mschmal · August 2004

Hey guys I just drove the Five Hundred and the Freestyle and I was very impressed.

First, acceleration was excellent. In fact, Ford has independendantly certified a 0-60 time of 7.45 secs for the FWD Five Hundred what the v6 camry at 7.8 and the 300 touring with the 3.5 coming in last at 8.0 secs.

I hate automatic transmissions. Mostly because then never seem responsive. The CVT completely changed my opinion on automatics. Amazingly smooth.

The drive was setup with an autocross style cone course, with a slalom section and the cars are very well controlled.

All that and i can verify that 8 golf bags fit in the Five hundreds trunk, or 6 golf bags and a 10 roll of carpet fits with a closed trunk!!!

The AWD system is also impressive, able to switch 100% of torque to any of the 4 wheels.

These cars look great in person. Not to flashy but very sophisticated. the 17 and 18 inch wheels really make the vehicle look small than its 60inch height.

If any one has any questions just ask but I for one am excited about this new product I'll get to sell.

Mark

rcf8000 · August 2004

According to the Toyota web site, a Camry LE V6 weighs 3340 lb, and according to the Ford media web site, the base curb weight of the Five Hundred is 3664 lb, for a difference of 324 lb, not 500-600 lbs.

alpha01 · August 2004

Those impressions and acceleration times are accurate, then hats off to Ford, and a job well done. I would still like to see the Car and Driver numbers, for example, and the Business Week article that Ive quoted previously said that the car felt sluggish...

"The AWD system is also impressive, able to switch 100% of torque to any of the 4 wheels." How can the vehicle send 100% of torque to one wheel? I cant conceptualize this.

~alpha

mschmal · August 2004

I also rode in a Freestyle Limited with 5 other passengers. Again the vehicle accelerated briskly and very quietly.

I saw one guy who was about 6'6 get into the 3rd row of the Freestyle he had enough head room and just enough leg room.

I'm 5'8. I sat in the second row of the of the Freestyle and slid my seat full forward while the driver moved his seat full back. He was 2 far back to drive and there was still 2 inches of room between the seat back and my knees.

The Five Hundred has the largest trunk of any 4 door sedan sold in this country, along with 107 cubit feet of passenger space in a vehicle that is only 3 inches longer than a Taurus.

The Haldex LSC is the same off the shelf unit that VW, Volvo and Mercedes are using.

Also the CVT uses the same type of chain from a company called LuK (luke). Its the exact same chain used in the Audi CVT. The Honda and GM CVT uses an older technology chain and this is the reason GM is having so many problems.

Also the reason for using 6 speed autos in some trim levels is that the expected demand for the Five Hundred/Freestyle exceeds the production capacity of the CVT plant at the moment.

Mark

mschmal · August 2004

sorry about that. no ford is not reviving cubits hehehe

ANT14 · August 2004

"All that and i can verify that 8 golf bags fit in the Five hundreds trunk, or 6 golf bags and a 10 roll of carpet fits with a closed trunk!!!"

or 4 bodies...

" for a difference of 324 lb, not 500-600 lbs. "

Look for the AWD Limited versions, I'm using worse case senarios.

"Ford has independendantly certified a 0-60 time of 7.45 secs for the FWD Five Hundred"

I mention this ions ago, approx. what they would be getting. I'm glad you were able to report on that, since at the time I mentioned it, many seemed to not believe it was possible. Of course, we'll always have the "but it's not enough" crowd, which I'm awaiting to see....

mojave2k · August 2004

I saw this CVT news too, and while I am safely driving my 04 Grand Marquis..(same engine,transmission,and rear end as an F-150).. I am wondering what is going on with the CVT transmission.. GM is dumping it because of problems at the same time Ford is putting it in the 500 and Freestyle. I don't think Ford needs another quality hit after the Explorer problems, any thoughts??

ANT14 · August 2004

Yet, other automaker's are implementing CVT's. GM didn't lead, nor wanted to lead on developing CVT's. Nissan, Audi and a few other automaker's are opting to use more CVT's on more model lines.

mschmal · August 2004

Ford is not using the same type of CVT that GM used and screwed up.

The 150,000 mile wear test revealed 1 micron of wear on the chain and the "pulleys" and the only Maintenance required is 60k fluid changes.

Audi already has 400k of a similar style CVT on the road with no problems.

Remember that if the automakers built the cars that were in their best interest instead of the consumers', we'd all be driving pintos and corvairs.

GM screwed the pooch on their CVT (no surprise from GM). Now their are trying to save face by claiming the future lies in Planetary Gear transmissions.

Sour Grapes if you ask me.

Mark

mariner7 · August 2004

"But in a tacit acknowledgement that the designs are too tame, freshened, more exciting versions are due to follow within two years." from detnews.com

I've never seen that, an automaker readying a new design even before the original gets its debut.

Another name for Freestyle: Style-free

ANT14 · August 2004

During the initial development of numerous (if not all) vehicles, they develop styling changes, for the mid-cycle refresh. You save time and money during the initial development phase, by doing it at that point. This allows the engineer's/designer to concentrate on the next total make-over which usually occurs at the 4/5 year interval.

The next styling changes to the 500 will allow it to incorporate the front grill look as the Fusion will debut.

mariner7 · August 2004

Yeah, but the freshening usually involves very minor changes, and never ever gets advertised two years beforehand and before the original debut. That's just not done! Why do you think Ford has to advertise to the auto press freshening is coming in 2 years? Because they know current styling is not getting anyone excited!

ANT14 · August 2004

Doesn't need to be advertised, it's common sense in the industry. Restyling vehicles such as the 500, aren't really hard. From the onset they were designed to allow quick and easy styling tweaks without the need to redesign body panels. Which explains the Montego. Whereas the new Mustang for example, is a bit harder to restyle and will require some body panels to be redesigned when the refreshening comes.

It's not the first time an automaker mentions this publically. I remember some launches, CTS, Altima, Asstek, 7Series, Vibe which stated the same.

fdcapt2 · August 2004

Announcing upcoming changes at just about the time the "NEW" models will be delivered to the dealers, is shear stupidity. No one in the general public has even seen these new cars, but they read articles about how the unseen cars will be changed. I think this last bit of stupidity might just cost Ford, BIG TIME !!! I will wait to see for myself, but I really don't think I'll end up buying anything that Ford puts out this year. It's amazing that a company with as much history as Ford, releases new models that are being changed as we sit here. Maybe some of you "insiders" think this is no big deal, but us "customers" find it to be really, really stupid.

johnclineii · August 2004

Please don't speak for all customers. The mere fact we have enough interest to post here makes us MOST atypical. The average customer will have NO idea, nor will they care, that the Five Hundred may/will be changed in two years.

Sheesh.

nvbanker · August 2004

"GM screwed the pooch on their CVT (no surprise from GM). Now their are trying to save face by claiming the future lies in Planetary Gear transmissions."

Oh hell, NOBODY is better than GM, at selling old technology by saying it's better..... And most of their loyal customers frankly, don't know the difference. So, it may not be sour grapes, as much as a desperation ploy to justify their old tech. Goes along with their pushrod mills.....

ANT14 · August 2004

"Maybe some of you "insiders" think this is no big deal, but us "customers" find it to be really, really stupid"

Think of it this way, wouldn't you appreciate knowing some information of things to occur in the future? I know what will occur, and I could tell you what will occur in 2-3-8 years from now on a specific vehicle, but will the regular customer know or care? Even about the 3.5L ?

Sometimes some information is let out, for those expecting a bit more. Example, if someone REALLY wanted a new Mustang (approx 2 years ago), they would go online, and research as much as possible over it. And in their research, have learned a totally new Mustang was to debut in 2004/05... Someone who wasn't savy, who needs a vehicle from A-B, would have just gone and bought what they see at the dealership.

And in numerous Ford press releases, you will find information of items that are planning on introducing to update/improve, current concerns the media will harp on.

Reminds me of the company slogan for SYMS... "An educated shopper, is our best customer"

307web · August 2004

Are people really going to delay their purchase of a car for 2 years waiting on a redesign when they need a car today?
Also, they really need to wait 3 or 4 years then so the new redesigned car has a year or two for the bugs to get worked out and discounting and rebates to come into effect.
If they are waiting that long, they might as well get the original car they were looking at in the meantime.

ANT14 · August 2004

You would be amazed actually will....

I have one friend, let's date back to 1995, he wanted a Mustang... Well he knew from me, that the 4.6L V8 would be fitted into it, later... Sure enough he waited... Then he found out, a new re-styled version (New Edge) would debut for 99, so he waited. When 1999 came around, he "heard" that a all new version would come out for 2003, so he has waited. Mustang development took a bit of a delay, now we are hitting 2005, and he still has his original 92 Mustang... All this because he is waiting to be first for the next "new one" heh...

Then we have the "Oh we'll wait for the first year bugs to go away". Granted, it really doesn't take a year, in 3-4 months everything is ironed out. And amazingly Ford CAN do recall free launches like the F-150/Freestar has had so far. Gone are the disaster intros like the Escape, Focus, but they will always live in people's mind as if it were yesturdays experience.

If I were to delay a purchase because there's something better coming along in the horizon, I wouldn't be able to purchase anything, because every vehicle is improved, or new one's introduced during the "waiting" period.

mariner7 · August 2004

I've never heard of a company advertising its styling update before the original debut. And it was advertising, or how else would detnews learned about it. Strikes me as very similar to someone saying to her parents:

"I'll introduce you to my fiancee, but don't worry. He'll get a nose job and chest implants right after the wedding."

If people don't like current styling, not many will wait around for the update. There are lots of competitors around. Camry and Accord are still the leaders in the class.

nedc2 · August 2004

I think that J. Mayes "leaked" the information about the refresh because he is in the process of leading a transition to a new unified signature style for Ford division vehicles, so-called heritage lines like the Mustang and T-Bird won't be affected by the changes. Ford division really hasn't had too much of a brand identity for their passenger cars since the early 90's with the aero look, then still under Jack Telnack, the started to move to what they were calling New Edge, exemplified in the pre 2005 Focus and the last version of the Mercury Cougar. Mayes seems to want to establish his style though and New Edge never quite made it, except maybe over to Cadillac where they call it Art & Science;) And having driven the Five Hundred I'll say the styling really needs to be seen in the metal to be appreciated and that the Accord and Camry aren't really direct competion, the new Five Hundred and Montego offer a level of space and verstility that they really can't come close to combined with even better driving dynamics.

Oh, a fiancée is a female, fiancé a male, so you should have added sex reassignment surgery o the nose job and implants:)

johnclineii · August 2004

At the ride and drive, the competition was identified as Impala and Avalon. I'd say this is accurate....

ANT14 · August 2004

Yes it is, and the demographics buying these vehicle's won't be distracted by it's styling. Accord and Camry are the epidomy of boring and bland, so if a customer were to crossshop (even if these vehicles are NOT the direct competitors) then they will feel at home.

dave2222 · August 2004

please look at the Ford.com site under the Five Hundred and Freestyle. Theyre amazing.

johnclineii · August 2004

Interesting article about, among other things, Ford Five Hundred styling:

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0408/22/c01-249392.htm

(This one is a different one than the one posted earlier...it's from today!)

samnoe · August 2004

Looking on the 500 photos, I realized that you can not see on the instrument panel where you are (I mean Park, Reverse, Drive...). You have to look down to the shifter in order to see.

Did Mayes forget to include that?

exalteddragon1 · August 2004

Its just funny how everyone says the Five Hundred looks boring and bland, yet they seem to find the passat beautiful. I gather they were designed by the same guy, hell from the side view the ford looks like a grown up, well adjusted passat.

Man, this just goes to show you how many people are, in the words of one george carlin "mostly stupid, ignorant, and believe what they are told"

Ive seen many passats (NYC area) and let me tell you, from the pictures listed on the ford.com website, the five hundred looks ages better, but for some reason the media, and thus the rest of us ignorant mortals, look at the five-hundred with bad eyes.

I don't know whether its because the five-hundred is American, or because its built by money-hungry unions, or just because its a ford, but for some reason this car is getting a bad rap.

This car sucks in many ways, yes. It does not have a Navigation system, no Xenon (ford model) headlamps, no 250hp yet, no RWD, no V8 model, and none of that beautiful wood paneling on the doors. Fine thats a given, but ford did not mess up the exterrior style. It looks very sophisticated, like a college professors car should be if those people actually did their jobs.

I posted many times about this cars lack of features, but in many ways it does make up for some of it in style. If they just add some more features, common ford, are you there?

johnclineii · August 2004

I wonder how you will feel about that clean, pure, elegant style when they tack on the three bar Ford grille in three years!

nvbanker · August 2004

Hey, ANT! akirby, (whom I respect a lot) is claiming that the 5 speed auto trans in the Aviator is assembled in the USA, from French parts. I understood the trans was manufactured somewhere in France, shipped here and installed in the cars in the US. Do you know which is the case? This discussion is going on over on the Aviator thread..... Figured you'd know conclusively......

mariner7 · August 2004

Current Passat was introduced years ago, it was pretty avant garde then. It didn't copy from anybody, except its A4 cousin. Europe already has new Passat.

alpha01 · August 2004

Everyone is talking about how vastly improved the materials quality in the Five Hundred is, and I agree, it does appear that way. Still, there is nothing to adorn the doors as there is in the competition, and the white faced guages are fairly ugly and out-of-place in an otherwise elegant interior. Wheres the classy guages like in the 300, or the electroluminescent guages like in the new Avalon (or Accord, or Camry, or even Corolla)?

~alpha

johnclineii · August 2004

You don't get the white faced guages unless you buy the limited.....

buckwheat · August 2004

The guages in the Limited are not "White". Standard for Limited, "Cream-colored instrumentation dial faces".

alpha01 · August 2004

My point was yuck, not very choice instrumentation for the uplevel and overall well executed interior.

~alpha

johnclineii · August 2004

In YOUR opinion. Everyone I know who has looked at them has been VERY impressed.

I know I am glad I am NOT getting them...

mschmal · August 2004

I hate wood trim. All well, I'd rather have a FWD CVT anyway and there is no wood on the SE.

Not too happy with the cloth on the SE though its kind of like the F-150 STX cloth, very flat and rough...no plush to it. Probably will resist stains well though.

There are some other misques, the power seat controls belong on the door panel as in the crown vic.

Ford is using a great illustration to show the advantage of a CVT over a tradition step transmission.

Picture a CVT as a continous sloop. No picture a slooped set of steps.

Roll a ball down each. the Ball on the steps looses foward momentum when it is falling to the next step. the ball on the sloop gets ahead of the ball on the steps.

Incidently, the rear rotors, 13inches are larger than the 12.2 inch rotors on the 04 Audi A8. Its about time figured out that DRUM brakes SUCK.

Mark

badgerfan · August 2004

Well, when I picture a sloop, I see a type of sailboat. A slope, on the other hand, is what you mean.

Rear disc brakes may be current state of the art, but rear brakes do very little of the work, so most of the advantages of rear discs is not so much an advantage as a perception of advantage, but whatever it takes to meet/beat the competition these days is required.

I could care less about fake wood, real wood, fake or real brushed aluminum, fake carbon fiber composite, etc, etc on car interiors, but to some the car is somehow less without these gimmicks, so on they go.

What impresses me is well thought out controls located ergonomically and with good rigid non flimsy design and no squeeks or rattles over the long haul. Flat black plastic works fine for me, but I guess I am too practical.

johnclineii · August 2004

file not found?

buckwheat · August 2004

John, the link worked fine in the Lincoln Town Car forum, I don't know what happened here. I'll make another stab at it.

http://www.autoweek.com/printwindow.cms?newsId=100663&pageTyp- e=news

johnclineii · August 2004

That one works fine.

Thanks!

nvbanker · August 2004

I suppose rear drums are fine, and if you didn't look, you'd never know which you had. But honestly, I look all the time, and when I see rear disks (like on a RAV 4 one of my employees just bought), I think "quality" auto. When I see rear drums (like on a former Durango, or a current Taurus), I think "they've cheaped out there, where else have they been cheap). Now, clearly, I'm different than most people, but I would not likely buy a car with rear drum brakes. I don't think drum brakes should exist today, mostly because they're too damn hard to fix!

johnclineii · August 2004

...not to mention the really evil things they do when they get wet. I agree. Drum brakes should be relegated to the ash can of history...

mschmal · August 2004

Not to mention the ever fun experince of FROZEN brakes.

Mark

Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego

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