Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego

johnclineii · December 2004

I have no idea, but I bet almost anything that virtually NOONE qualifies for ALL of those discounts. And, there is even the possibility that that particular unit is already sold/not for sale. (Not that that is legal, but it happens).

If the car cannot be bought at the net advertised price, I would be looking elsewhere. Would you want to deal with a dealer who dealt in that way? In sales, service or warranty?

ANT14 · December 2004

Sounds like a demo vehicle, and if so, not under warranty.

johnclineii · December 2004

Demonstrators ARE covered by the factory warranty. BUT, the time and mileage limitation (and warranty) start at the time the dealer first puts the car into service:

http://www.fordvehicles.com/assets/pdf/2004Warranty.pdf

ANT14 · December 2004

Quite a few dealer's I've visited sell demo vehicles without warranties.

Although some have "AS IS" on the window sticker, which means whatever scraps, scratches, wear/tear are found on it, cannot be corrected. Although still covered under the manufacturer's warranty.

johnclineii · December 2004

Be sure to check local laws. In many states, it is illegal to sell a vehicle AS IS. And the manufacturer, not the dealer, warrants new vehicles. Why on earth a dealer would try to disclaim a new car factory warranty, I cannot possibly imagine. At least I can't imagine why they would properly do so.

As always, CAVEAT EMPTOR--let the buyer beware.

ANT14 · December 2004

My forte isn't dealership experience, I do nothing related with them...just go with what I have seen in other manufacturer's dealerships when someone needs my "help" on purchasing a vehicle.

johnclineii · December 2004

ANT14, you do a great job. I, among many others, am VERY glad you are here. Thanks for helping to make this forum the wonderful place that it is!

(Now, do you think I would be COMPLETELY nuts to trade in a year old Five Hundred this fall for a Fusion? )

ANT14 · December 2004

Hmmm, a tad. Not because of driving dynamics, or your likes/dislikes over the mentioned vehicles, but because a vehicle is an item that depreciates. Therefore I personally have a harder time to justify the purchase.

Although I'm in sort of a similar situation. My previous LS had over 125K miles and there was no other vehicle that grabbed my attention.... and while the LS never gave me any problems during my painful reign, I had the itch of buying something new. Obviously knowing the Mustang was around the corner, I tried to hold off a bit so I could purchase that instead. But I average 40K miles yearly, therefore I wouldn't be able to hold off that long. So I purchased another LS.

Summer 05 I will have to reassess the situation since I'll be hitting the 70K mark at that time.

Although what truely "sucks", is knowing WHATS in the pipeline in the future. I think,

"Hmm I could get a Mustang, but there's ____ coming out a few months later..Oh but wait, there's _____ which will have AWD coming out a few months later after that...Hmmm no, I could wait a few months after that, when ____ comes out with a V8".... Then before you know it, your looking 2 years into the future, and still left in square one.

I say you wait till you test drive the Fusion before pondering the thought too much. Not sure what your likes/dislikes are over a vehicle, but the Fusion will feel a bit more european in it's driving dynamics, a bit more boy-racer like, in a smaller package than the 500. Naturally, sharing many of the traits that has caught the attention of current 500 owner's.

The Lincoln Zephyr will offer the same package, but with different driving dynamics (suspension tailored for a more sophisticated, cushiness-not boatlike in any way though).

The Fusion is definately much more fun to toss around, from the F, M, Z trio.

flasvt · December 2004

ANT 14. I will save the 5th paragraph of the posting 2125 and start filling the blanks as the cars begin to be introduced. Thank you, it was a nice Christmas present for us car aficionados.

avenger1 · December 2004

is to bring over one of the diesel engines from Fords Europe selections and have a diesel option.

The UK Mondeo has 3 Diesel options, including

2.0 Duratorq TDCi Diesel 96 kW (130 PS) at 3500 min-1 (rpm) 330 / 350* Nm at 1800 min-1 (rpm)

2.2 Duratorq TDCi Diesel 114 kW (155 PS) at 3500 min-1 (rpm) 360 / 400* Nm at 1800 min-1 (rpm)

Since these are only 2.o and 2.2L in size, getting them to fit would not be a problem (Some refitting of parts would be needed). Imagine the increased torque at low rpm would do for the performance (and even better MPG to boot!).

Anyone able to be UK to US conversions of power and torque?

avenger1 · December 2004

Please let's not get into the diesel VS gas arguement...They both have their place. Diesel got a bad rap because of smoke, but that has been remedied because of technology and improved fuel.

Just rather have a discussion of bringing a diesel option to the 500 (I'd buy one if available).

fsv · December 2004

Anyone - Mercury Meta powerplant - how far away it is?

ANT14 · December 2004

Avenger,

You can do an online search for "Online Measurement conversion", and a few sites will be displayed where you can translate those numbers into HP/TQ.

Ford has placed together a Diesel team, to analyze what applications, and possibilities are available for Diesel in the N.A. market. Meta One concept hints at what's possible, provided more refined gasoline is phased in so manufacturer's can introduce such vehicles.

Ford of Europe's 2.7L TD V-6 would make a great engine addition for most passenger car applications in the NA market. While using the 2.0L for smaller applications.

mschmal · December 2004

This is a BOGUS ADD the car can not be purchased for that price because some of the listed programs are incompatable.

RTCM is a direct mail offer

RCL is Red carpet lease loyalty

FRP is Ford replacement offer.

and Military is active military only.

RTCM, FRP, and military cannot be combined with each other. The best a customer could get is RCL and one of these three. How likely however is someone even going to be qualified for any of these let alone more than one?

Mark

johnclineii · December 2004

And dealers who run bogus ads have already proven they can't be trusted in at least one thing. Why on earth would you give them your business after they have proven how little they think of your intelligence?

There are other dealers. I suggest you use one of them...

avenger1 · December 2004

Ant,

I will be in the market for a new car in the near future - October 2005 in my car does not pass smog (every year they make it harder to pass in California). If I pass, I have the luxury to continue driving what I have for another 2 years.

I have been looking at the 500/freesytle for some time (I've been posting for a while, just not often). I've also been interested in the Passat (which is why I loved the design of the 500), especially the TDI passat.

I think it would make sense for ford to bring over their diesel offerings to the US, especially after 2006 when the diesel ban is lifted in CA.

The 500 already has some European flair (looks like the door panels were lifted from the Mondeo).

It's just unfortunate that Americans have a hateful feeling towards diesels because of the smoke spewing beasts of the 70-80's.

And speaking of the Mondeo...why didn't Ford lift the dash design from the Mondeo and install in the 500? Something like this photo -

http://www.eurologic.de/cars/ford/0308mondeo/bild2.jpg

or

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/images/11mayfor- d5.JPG

Would have saved some design $$ - and still given it some euro flavor.

ANT14 · December 2004

Avenger,

" October 2005 in my car does not pass smog (every year they make it harder to pass in California)"

We had that in FL for quite awhile. It was quite a joke actually which they later removed... Worker's were getting bribed (I so did I) so vehicles would pass. Not that I'm giving you any ideas here.... Just drive the vehicle hard before having it tested, and hope they don't ram that tail pipe stick too deep, and your odds are with you.

I agree, I would like to see diesel offerings, although market perception will take awhile to alter for it to gain willing acceptance. This isn't to say it won't occur though. Also, placement of the diesel engine upon a specific vehicle is very critical.

Example: How many who buy a Focus, be willing to pay $2-3K for a diesel variant, on what is considered an economy car? As it was, not many taker's for the AdvanceTrac stability control system.

Ford is able to offer the Power Stroke Diesel on it's SD F-series trucks mainly because some/many customer's require the extra torque of such an engine, as well as the reliability that comes with diesels. Pricing is over $30K +, add the diesel option which is a few thousands more, and your looking at a $40K+ truck, which brings in quite a bit of profit for Ford.

So there's a fine-line of analyzing where to place such an engine. Would the regular 500 customer be willing to up a few thousands more for diesel? Etc. that's mainly what it boils down to.

Also, while the Ford vehicles in europe are designed to accept their line of diesel engines, we have specific vehicles in N.A. that would require different engine mounting, and modifications to allow the front sub frame/assembly that would accept the engine, while keeping the excellent crash ratings.

Then another item to consider, the transmission to be coupled with a diesel. It'll obviously require one that can handle high torque loads, therefore... would it fit in the mentioned vehicle?

Currently, the Focus and Fusion would be the passenger cars that could be easily altered for a diesel engine. Although, it's much easier to design a diesel for an Explorer for example, or LD F-series, since there's much more engine space available and require less modifications.

The Meta One concept hints at what's possible. Coupling it to a "hybrid" system, would allow for a consumer to receive a gov't/tax incentive (hopefully, if it still exists at that time) therefore allowing it to be a bit more reachable for most consumers.

"And speaking of the Mondeo...why didn't Ford lift the dash design from the Mondeo and install in the 500?"

Totally different size in every shape and form. You can only lift/add/replace dashboards when the vehicles are similar. SportTrac/Ranger, next SportTrac/Explorer will share the same dashboard since the SportTrac will be designed onto the new Explorers platform.

Mounting points, cowl depth, firewall, electrical, airbags, A/C ducts, steering column all need to be at an exact place to allow for such a change.

And above all, customer needs here in the U.S. The Mondeo's radio switches (evidence by it's glossiness) aren't not up to the quality of that of the 500. Also, much emphasize is placed to design the interior dashboard to facilitate it's use for people of all ages.

Notice the size of many of the buttons in US Ford vehicles, even a gloved hand is able to operate it if need be. Focus for example, has the trunk-door release button up high in the dashboard, rather than having someone search on the door ledge for a lever, like many other cars have.

Upon sitting on a vehicle, you should be able to view all buttons without moving your neck much (even elders who might have limited movements) Granted, not every vehicle can be designed specifically this way (for whatever engineering reason there might be), but this is how Ford has been concentrating/improving on it's interiors.

Here's a picture of a Third Age suit used by engineers, to help them design interiors for elderly people for example.

http://autodeadline.com/detail?source=&mid=WKA2004122250407&a- mp;mime=JPG

briham · December 2004

Here is a helpful review. There are a lot of pluses to this car such as higher ride, volvo safety features and a huge amount of storage space. The negatives seem to be the engine(one choice, mediocre power) and somewhat bland styling.

http://www.automedia.com/autoReviews/2005/ford/500/rts20041101fh.- asp?affid=

alan_s · December 2004

I have an Avalon and went to see the new 500. I was amazed at the apparent quality of the materials, impressed with the design inside and out and couldn't wait to test drive it. It looked like a no-brainer decision over the competition.

What a disappointment! This car has NO power and the noisy engine and transmission are revving high just to keep this 3,700 pound car moving.

Driving the Avalon afterward was like going from a lawnmower into a fighter-jet in comparison.

I can't believe how dumb the Ford engineering and marketing team must be if they think this can compete with 210hp Camrys that are MUCH quicker, let alone 240hp Accords, 250hp Altima's and 265hp Maximas.

Come on Ford, even GM now have a 240hp engine in a BUICK!!!

ANT14 · December 2004

"Come on Ford, even GM now have a 240hp engine in a BUICK!!!"

Considering the aging buying demographics of Buick, do we really want them to have that much power? I predict a slight increase of store-front crashes where Buick driver's are claiming their accelerator got stuck... :-)

dbc123 · December 2004

I have a Lexus LS as well as a new 500. The LS has much more power and refinment that an Avalon. I switch between my cars frequently and do not agree at all with "alan s" assesment above. The 500 is not underpowered and CVT gives the car a delightfully smooth feel when being operated moderately - much smoother than any step gear transmission including Toyta's.

avenger1 · December 2004

Ant,

Just hoping for better options as fuel prices continue to climb.

Do you think a diesel option would really add to the price of a vehicle? As I recall, the current Passat TDI was only a few hundred over a regular GLS (~$300.00).

I know hybrid technology adds to the cost due to added materials (Batteries and Motors), and R&D costs.

On Slashdot.org (I won't post a link to another forum), there was discussion on the speed mark set recently by a Toyota Prius. Discussion also included adapting hybrid technology to diesel engines to get the best of both worlds.

Imagine a TDI which already gets 38-44 MPG (real world figures) with a motor boost (honda style) or full on hybrid (ala toyota) to extend MPG.

I'll read up on the meta one concept...I had not heard of that one before. Should make for some interesting debate (but not on this board, lets get back on topic). Ford 500 diesel, please!

ANT14 · December 2004

And item catching on is Direct Fuel Injection, boosting power and fuel economy (relative to the power output).

Meta One Concept I mentioned moons ago in the Freestyle forum would be the concept vehicle, that will hint at the styling of the Mercury version of the Freestyle.

Here's more info...

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=19835&ma- ke_id=trust

Source: Ford Media

alhar1 · December 2004

In reference to my post #2117: Thanks to mschmal and others providing info about a dishonest dealer

ad purporting to offer a deeply discounted 500 SEL. Guess it's too early to get any "cashbacks"

or other useable discounts on the 500.

johnclineii · December 2004

I don't think this insightful article got posted when it came out:

http://www.forbes.com/columnists/columnists/2004/08/24/cz_jf_0824- flint.html

nvbanker · December 2004

I'm in Florida for the winter, where I keep my old Dodge van for my visits there, but my daughter is using the van, (which to my surprise is holding up very well to her abuse, I noted), and I'm renting an 05 Town Car from Hertz. As much as I like the Town Car, and think it's kinda the ultimate "rental king" on the road, (I wonder how many people don't realize you can rent of one these for $10 a day more than a Crown Victoria? - probably everyone) it's still not as "comfy" as an Explorer is, or the 500 is. I think the "Tall Sedan" is a revolutionary concept, and as I was driving my Town Car from Jacksonville, to Gainesville, to Tallahassee, and back again this past week, I was thinking, for a Sedan, this is just about as good as it gets, if the seating position was just higher...... Taa Daa!!!! 500..

A decent Lincoln version of the 500 WITH A V-8, DAMMIT, would be awesome.

ehaase · December 2004

"A decent Lincoln version of the 500 WITH A V-8, DAMMIT, would be awesome."

You just have to wait until the 2008 or 2009 model year.

nvbanker · December 2004

I plan to be around......... Thanks.

johnclineii · January 2005

http://www.jsonline.com/wheels/test/dec04/289026.asp

explorerx4 · January 2005

...another review commenting on acceleration, but i noticed (again)no numbers were supplied to back up the comments.

based on my prior ownership of some sho's, i looked up the numbers from those cars.

'89 3.0/manual 5 spd - 3360 lbs, 220hp@6200rpm, 200ft/lbs torque@4800rpm.

'92 3.2/auto 4 spd - 3600 lbs, 220hp@6000rpm, 215ft/lbs torque@4000rpm.

five hundred 3.0/auto cvt - 3800+ lbs, 207hp@5750rpm, 200ft/lbs torque@4500rpm.

those old sho's were pretty fast. my guess is a five hundred is not a dog compared to an sho with a passenger or 2 on board. just my opinion.

nvbanker · January 2005

But I didn't notice the 500 being slow when I drove it........

johnclineii · January 2005

CVT or Six Speed? AWD or FWD?

Inquiring minds want to know...

nvbanker · January 2005

6 speed, FWD. Had all the power I wanted all day. I believe folks forget what this car is built to be.

brucelinc · January 2005

Nvbanker, I think most of the complaints about acceleration are from reviewers testing the car and not from the actual prospective buyers. My guess is that most of the folks who are serious prospects for the 500 agree with you that the power is appropriate for the type of vehicle it is and its market.

Also, it depends upon what you are used to driving. Someone moving into a 500 from a Vulcan equipped Taurus or a 4 cyl Camry or Accord would probably find the 500 to be quite peppy. However, compared to a V6 Accord or even a Duratec Taurus, the 500 doesn't feel very lively.

If the Duratec 35 had been available from the beginning, the automotive press would likely have given the car awesome reviews.

harmar2 · January 2005

FoMoCo is sensitive to reviewers ratings, because buyers read them, and many buyers accept reviews at face value. Ratings I've read have been generally favorable except for the power factor and mileage. Ward's Auto World reports Volvo will buy a V-8 from Yamaha (which I believe made the SHO engine), and it, or a version of it, probably will find its way into Lincoln, then into lower level FoMoCo products, like the 500/Montego. But -- how many sales will be lost waiting for that V-8? FoMoCo seems never to get it right the first time. (Does Bill Gates secretly own FoMoCo?)

johnclineii · January 2005

I may be wrong, but I doubt you will see a V-8 in a Ford Five Hundred, at least not from the factory.

A 3.5 V-6, yes. A V-8, no.

explorerx4 · January 2005

how many people would buy the volvo or lincoln v8, if you could get the same one in a ford at the same time? you are right, yamaha parts were in all 3 generations of sho engines. been there, enjoyed it

ANT14 · January 2005

Same people who buy the Town Car, even if it's essentially a Crown Vic/Grand Marquis. Some people might like the styling, or just want to be seen in something a bit different.

johnclineii · January 2005

...there seem to be fewer and fewer people who will buy American prestige brands just to get the prestige label. That crowd seems mostly to have moved on to Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, etc. Though Cadillac is having some success at getting them back---but not by selling them gussied up Chevy's...

nvbanker · January 2005

That's all very true, John, however, they are charging good money for their "non-chevies" too. I'm ok with the Town Car being a gussied up Crown Vic, if it's priced accordingly, and still quite nice. I like a value proposition, because I won't plunk down $100,000 for a Benz. I mean how MUCH more better will that S-class ride, really? There's a point of diminishing return for me, and it all becomes just "costly apparel". I'm comfortable at what Lincoln has been - we need product right now, or I may have to go to Lexus, but I'm not going to pay a fortune for a Caddy, because the radio is still from a Chevy.

harmar2 · January 2005

The Ward's piece said the Yamaha V-8 is a very compact version. It had to be to fit into the Volvo platform and keep the crush zones intact.

Since the 500/Montego allegedly weigh 3800#, maybe FoMoCo would consider the V-8. The use of a single platform for the 500/Montego/Freestyle suggests an effort to keep costs down.

Re: Americans looking to foreign manufacturers for upscale products, either Motor Trend or Ward's made that exact point. Such buyers see "prestige" in a foreign, not American, car. That should give pause to American manufacturers.

pod · January 2005

As a satisfied Sable owner I took the Montego (6 spd, fwd) for an extended test drive. In almost everyway except one it was a better looking, better appointed car with a much better seating position and better brakes and chassis. It was however so underpowered that I had the dealer check to see if the transmission was slipping. The 6 spd transmission has a first gear that lasts only a seconds or two and then a huge valley until the next gear kicks in. The road noise is less than Sable but the engine sounds come thorugh loud and clear like a straining, weak 4 cylinder and that noise comes through. Since it is the same 203 hp v6 engine as the prior sables I assume the significantly greater weight (500-700 pounds depending on awd or not)is the culprit. I am no speed demon but for this kind of money I want some pick up and pleasant sounds. I prefer my sable for these reasons and will wait for more power to be optional.

johnclineii · January 2005

You might want to test drive a car with the AWD or a FWD with the CVT (if you can even find the latter, supposedly the SE is available with the CVT, but just try finding one). Acceleration is much improved, but seems to be slower!

alpha01 · January 2005

If you want bigger than your Sable, but still powerful, the new Avalon will have 280 horses. Pricing compared to the 2004 is expected to rise slightly, but equipment levels have been increased, and so the vehicle will be a better value. I'd say a comparably equipped model compared to the Montego will be about $1000-$2000 higher. Neither the 500 or Montego offer many of the items on the upper-level new Avalons, so look to compare the XL, Touring, and lightly optioned XLS 05 Avalons to these Fords.

Additionally, the 2006 Impala will be available soon, with a 240+ 3.9L V6 that is expected to be fairly fuel efficient, and GM has promised a better interior. If the Cobalt is any indication, I see no reason not to believe.

Just a few upcoming alternatives.

~alpha

guss · January 2005

I was walking the dealers lot on Sunday and they had several 500's. My first impression was very favorable. I have seen pictures of it and did not really like it but in person it looks alot like the old Audi A6 ( a good thing).

One was parked next to an '05 Taruas, I did not know they were still making these, and the 500 looked huge. Much taller and wider. All the ones on the lot had 17" wheels, really giving it a presence.

Just looking at the stickers the 6 speed transmission models are cheaper and get better gas mileage(29 highway)than the CVT. What is the purpose of the CVT, are they quicker? The 6 speeds listed at $22,500, not a bad deal for th size of the car.

Of course after I leave the lot I saw my first one on the road. I read most of the reviews that slammed it but I am starting to like it. Now I have to actually sit in one to check out the headroom.

rcf8000 · January 2005

According to the Jan. '05 Consumer Reports, the 500 has only 1/2 inch more front and rear seat head room than a Chrysler 300, even though the 500 is 4 inches taller. I guess Ford figured that making you sit up high was more important than giving you added headroom. I've seen this before in various Ford vehicles, going back over 20 years, where the driver's seat will not adjust low enough to suit me.

ehaase · January 2005

The 2006 Impala SS will have a 303 hp 5.3L V8. I wonder if Ford would consider giving a version of the Five Hundred the same V8 that the Lincolns will hopefully get. I wish that the Five Hundred had the strong engines that the 2006 Impala will get.

johnclineii · January 2005

What is the purpose of the CVT? Better fuel economy and stronger and smoother acceleration. EPA figures are based on a government sanctioned test run that is not at all indicative of real life automobile usage. In the real world, the CVT DOES get better mileage, especially in town.

Ford cares about the environment, not just EPA figures that aren't even close to repeatable in the world where cars function, not a test laboratory.

buckwheat · January 2005

A V-8 producing more HP and Torque in a Five Hundred? - it sure won't be one with a CVT - the current CVT just about handles the torque of the 3-liter which is why there is no rush to put a 3.5L with greater torque in the Five Hundred - Montego anytime in the "immediate" future.

The manufacture of the 3.5L (Duratec-35) is not scheduled until the end of 2005 and even then it is destined for other Ford products.

ANT14 · January 2005

The next Aviator will be the first to debut the Duratec35, after that, it'll be phased into many more products and kill off some other engine families.

Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego

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