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Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego

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Comments

  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    Uh...that's OLD news...Ford itself is building the CVT's, without ZF as a partner, in Batavia, Ohio. And there are other companies that build/engineer CVT's, not just ZF.

    Don't read too much into that article...your conclusion that Ford won't be using CVTs after 2007 may or may not be the case, but nothing in that article requires that conclusion.
  • gteegtee Member Posts: 179
    I don't have a crystal ball, so I cannot see into the future. I can only make an educated guess. And my guess is that CVT will be discontinued in NA market at end of 2007.

    There are several reasons for this:

    1. It cost too much money to build a CVT. New GM-Ford 6-speed will be cheaper to build.

    2. Current CVT cannot handle torque of 3.5l engine. So its limited to 3.0l Duratech. I believe that Duratech will be discontinued down the road as well.

    3. The original plan was to produce 1M CVT per year; it was reduced to 250K per year. New Ford products such as Fusion do not use CVT. They use 6-speed. If Ford were serious about CVT they would certainly introduce it on new products besides 500 and Freestyle.

    4. According to ANT14, Ford is working on a new version of CVT using TOROTACK technology. This version of CVT will eliminate the Torque Converter ,which will improve the fuel economy. This means that the current CVT as used on 500 is an intermediate development of CVT technology at best.

    My personal opinion about the whole CVT issue is this. The CVT development was stared by Jacques Nasser. This guy had no idea what he was doing, and really had no business running Ford. Remember Ford started to go down hill with him at the helm. The best move Bill Ford made was to fire him before he run Ford into the ground.

    So he stared this whole CVT development thing because the original projections were that CVT would cost x% less to produce and would provide 10% better fuel economy, and it was new and exciting. The development stared and then people stared to realize that this CVT transmission was not as easy as every body thought. The project was two years behind schedule. Then ZF pulled out because they did not want to invest any more money into it. Companies don’t just pull out from a project because of nothing. There must have been good reason why Ford and ZF split apart on this project. I don’t know why because I don’t work for Ford, but you can be sure it was something serious. I know Germans. They are very stubborn and they can usually finish a project. So it must have been a money issue, like ZF could not deliver CVT for a negotiated price.

    Ford took over the whole project and continued to pour millions of dollars into it. The internal data showed that CVT was not giving the fuel economy everybody expected and it cost more to build then a conventional transmission. But now they faced a problem. They invested millions of dollars into it. They had to produce something, or heads in top management would roll.

    In the mean time the 500 and Freestyle are being developed and it’s committed that 500 and Freestyle will use the newly developed CVT. I am not sure who decided to do this, but it was on a high level. They had to use CVT because millions upon millions of dollars were spent on this technology. The factory was already built. It was too late to cancel this project.

    Luckily cooled heads at Ford prevailed and they started to develop a 6-speed with GM. Think about it. Why would Ford start to develop a 6-speed transmission with a competitor when they had the CVT. If CVT were truly a world-class technology there would be not need for a conventional 6-speed. NO, in 2000 when the development of CVT was running behind schedule and it was apparent that CVT would not deliver on its promise, Ford stared to develop the 6-speed with GM. Lets see which transmission will be used in the future? The GM-Ford 6-speed automatic is the FUTURE.

    Like I said, I don’t work for Ford. This is just a likely scenario of what happened based on available information. Remember in 1990’s the 2 stroke engines were supposed to be the future (another well proven technology). In 2000’s the CVT is the future. 2010’s the hydrogen will be the future.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    not sure why i should know about when airbags should deploy or not, but i'll give it a try.

    what was the other vehicle involved in the the collision?

    my expedition got the front left wheel knocked off it, but the airbags did not deploy. i drove right through the other vehicle. i should point out that i tried to avoid it and they were traveling the wrong way.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    thanks for putting so much thought into your post.
    i basically agree, except about the performance. it does seem to work. it is just an expensive way to get there.
    don't know if currency values play into it.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    BIG MISTAKE

    Mark
  • gteegtee Member Posts: 179
    When you have to explain to the public that there is "no bad blood" between you and the supplier, you know there is bad blood between you and the supplier.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    The "Bad Blood" supplier is now providing more transmissions for Ford, and other Ford family vehicles, than they did previous to the Batavia venture.

    The ZF supplied 6 speed automatic used in RWD vehicles like the XJ, Navigator, etc.

    So are we going to spin it and say Ford is doing this because they felt sorry for what they did to ZF years ago?
  • gteegtee Member Posts: 179
    I am not a politician so I don't have to spin anything. I just thought that it was funny that they used the title "No Bad Blood". I mean which PR company came up with that title for the article? I happen to like ZF transmissions, my 740 used a ZF 5-speed which I thought was just great.
  • lateralglateralg Member Posts: 929
    Are you sure about the 6 speed for RWD vehicles? How about the '06 Explorer/Mountaineer?
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    That would be the 6R, built in Livonia. Van [non-permissible content removed] gets the 6F (GM JV).
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    So even the Mazda CX9 gets the 3.5L engine well before the Five Hundred/Montego?

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=108292#3

    What's up with THAT? Isn't it more important to get that engine available as an option in the Five Hundred/Montego, which the media has had a field day calling underpowered?
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    Yes John, it is amazing that Ford is putting the bigger engine in the lighter Fusion/Milan/Zephyr before they put it into the heavier Five Hundred / Montego / Freestyle.
  • gene_vgene_v Member Posts: 235
    John, I'll say it. FORD is stuck on stupid.
    Just unbelievable that the Five hundred has to wait its turn behind Mazda and others.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    It doesn't say the Fusion gets the new engine or when.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    "What's up with THAT? Isn't it more important to get that engine available as an option in the Five Hundred/Montego, which the media has had a field day calling underpowered?"

    True, I see your point, but the first vehicle to debut the engine will be the Lincoln Aviator, so being it's on the same assembly line, it's not much of an issue to dump it into the Edge or any other CD3 derived equivilant.

    As for the F/M/Z, they get it next mainly because of the AWD option, and new JV FMC/GM 6 speed automatic. It's easier to just combine those three components, and just dump them into those vehicles.

    If the 500 were to receive the 3.5L first, then A) the transmission isn't ready for Ford just yet B) the existing AWD would require beefing up C )Not many would know that such items have been introduced unless they see a new face. New face when? Next remodel period which is 2007, as a 2008 vehicle. In other words, your looking at 14-18 months from now.

    After those vehicles, then you'll see the engine surplanting various other engines families, as newly redesigned vehicles are being introduced... As is, when the Freestar/Monterey minivans are replaced, the engines in it will also be killed 3.9L/4.2L. Next "people mover" will use the new V6's and V8's.

    Let's not forget, these factories manufacturing these components require time to tool up, build, and slowly phase them into vehicles as they ramp up. And the same will occur when certain engines are killed. Can't yank all 3.9L/4.2L in a months time, rather slowly kill them off as new vehicles are redesigned to accept the newer ones.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    ANT14, did you just tell us that new V8s on on the way? Maybe based on the new V6 design (probably meaning a 60 degree angle between banks)? Is Ford going to have new V6, V8 (and maybe even 4 cylinder engines) which really are the same design?

    Unfortunately, I see your point that if the car does not look different, many dealers and buyers will never be able to focus on the improvements.
  • gteegtee Member Posts: 179
    Every thing you say about the engines is correct, the only thing this whole change over should have occurred about 5 years ago. 3.8L/3.9L/4.2L Essex engines should have been killed about 10 years ago. This way we could all enjoy driving cars with powerful engines instead of waiting for another 18 months.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    FSM,

    New V8 meaning, the Volvo's Yamaha 4.4L, which will first be used in a few Lincolns. And the Triton 4.6L, doesn't necessarily need to stay at 4.6L either...

    Gtee,

    Originally yes, the plan was the phase in the 3.5L a few years ago. Even the Lincoln LS was to receive the new 3.5L as well, but because other fires needed to be put out, that got pushed back. The positive thing is that in the process of being introduced a bit later, it gained VVT, and various other components.
  • cv2cv2 Member Posts: 3
    Hi,

    I'm looking at buying a new '05 SE FWD as I was able to get a pretty good deal on it. I have not road tested it yet, but for those of you who own one, how is the ride comfort? Firm, soft, in the middle?

    Thanks!
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    "Firm, soft, in the middle? "

    Somewhere between soft and in the middle.

    Smoother than a Taurus, not as soft as a Town Car.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    Strange. Are you not planning on driving it yourself before you buy it?
    You're buying it based soley on the price?
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    Check to see if it is a CVT or 6 speed car.

    Also, this is one of the Safety cars you can buy according to IIHS.

    visit www.highwaysafety.org
  • bruneau1bruneau1 Member Posts: 468
    Has anyone had the fuel strap recall done yet? Should we feel safe until then?
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    I haven't had it done yet (though I got the recall notice last week).

    As I recall, the possible failure of the straps was something that isn't supposed to happen for quite a few miles?
  • evandroevandro Member Posts: 1,108
    How does one program some features of the body computer, such as headlight blink when using the key fob, when doors lock and unlock automatically, etc?

    TIA
  • cv2cv2 Member Posts: 3
    Hi all,

    I just traded-in my vehicle for a 500 SEL and I'm very happy so far! When driving back on the freeway, and applying the brakes, I noticed an unusual noise coming from the front of the car. (I assume the brakes, but maybe the engine?)

    Whenever I apply the brakes when going faster than about 20mph, I hear a fairly loud noise similar to jake-brakes on 18-wheelers. I wonder if it's normal since it's a new car, and maybe the pads need to adjust.

    Has anyone else experienced this?

    Thanks!
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    That certainly isn't normal...I'd get it back in and have it looked at. I've over 51,000 miles on mine now, and never had any odd braking noises at all...
  • bruneau1bruneau1 Member Posts: 468
    See your dealer at once- not normal.
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    One of the main goals for Ford during the design of the Five Hundred was to build a car that outperformed the competition in IIHS tests.

    Mission acomplished.

    Now you can tell your children that the reason they don't ride in the safest full size sedan available is because you think the looks are too conservative or because you feel that the 0-60 times in the 8 second range are inadequate...

    Mark
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    Which would you rather have, a

    2006 Five Hundred SE FWD
    with Safety package and Traction Control
    Total MSRP $23,920?

    Or a 2006 Ford Fusion SE-V6
    With SE Sport Package (alloys and 6CD)
    Safety and Security
    ABS and Traction control,
    Total MSRP $22,955?

    Mark
  • jh1977jh1977 Member Posts: 40
    Why will it be two more years before the new 3.5 Liter engines are installed in the 500/Montego. I will not consider buying a 500 or Montego until they have these new engines. Does Ford understand how car sales it will lose over the next two years because these engines are not installed in the 500/Montego currently?
  • frankc55frankc55 Member Posts: 9
    I test drove the 500 with the current engine. It seemed very peppy and no lag at all. I really don't see a problem with the current config.

    Frank
  • bruneau1bruneau1 Member Posts: 468
    For rational people there isn't a problem, but with everybody else laying the horsepower on heavy and a press in love with 0-60 numbers, it becomes a problem- a very serious one for the future of Ford. When Ford catches up, everyone else will have moved far ahead again.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    "When Ford catches up, everyone else will have moved far ahead again."

    I wouldn't be so sure of that, given current trends in oil and gas prices.
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    The press doesn't buy the cars.

    Here is a good example the new Jeep Grand Cheoroke offers the "Hemi" as an option.

    The new Explorer only offers the 4.6L 3 Valve engine from the new Mustang.

    In a quarter mile run, the Jeep clearly beats the Explorer by about 1.5 seconds.

    In racing that might as well be 2 hours but in the real world, are you really going to pay $2,500 just so you can get away from a stop light a little quicker? Especially with todays gas prices?

    The wimpy frame used on the Jeep doesn't even allow it to take advantage of the HP, as the Explorer leads in tow capacity.

    The goal for Ford should be to build good cars that are very competitve at doing what they were designed to do.

    The Five Hundred was designed to be a big comfortable family sedan offering more features for the money than an Accord or Camry.

    Whether or not this car offers a person's perceived level of performance is mute. Those people are not shopping for this kind of car anyway.

    People say to them selves "Gee this car doesn't feel as fast as the Chrysler 300 but I can get AWD for the price of the Rear Drive Chrysler. And we do get snow here. I know traction control helps rear drive cars in the snow but you should still get snow tires. The 300 has a smaller trunk and I like to go on golf weekends now that the kids are out of the house. The Five Hundred has better crash test results. The styling on the 300 seems like it will be OUT of style in a couple of years and I always keep my cars a long time.

    What are your reasons for buying a car?

    Mark
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    The styling on the 300 seems like it will be OUT of style in a couple of years

    I liked the styling of the 300 and Magnum when they first came out. I must say, though, that now I don't really care for it all that much.

    However, they DO still stand out in a crowd.
  • bruneau1bruneau1 Member Posts: 468
    I agree, and i like the 500, Montego, Freestyle trio. But the press exerts a strong influence wether we like it or not. These days, rightly or wrongly, it is self-defeating to introduce vehicles that others perceive as underpowered in their class. Perception is sometimes everything, even though you and I have our priorities straight.
  • frizz2112frizz2112 Member Posts: 84
    I agree. It's not necessarily about "what is adequate." Plenty of people make it to work every day in cars with 100 HP, so you could say that 100 HP is adequate. Like it or not, Ford is at a competitive disadvantage because of the lack of a more powerful engine on the 500. All the talk about not "needing" more power is a bit silly. How many people driving 500's now who are staunchly defending their purchase would have opted for the 3.5 V6 had it been available? My guess is that many of them would have. If the 500 launched with an engine lineup that trumped Chrysler in power, these same people would probably be singing it from the rooftops, and telling us how much better the 500 is because of the extra power vs the 300. Loyalties run deep in the automotive world.

    For the record, I've driven a 500, and would describe the power as, um, adequate. ;)
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Good points, Frizz. The perception of the 500's power also depends to some extent what you are accustomed to. For example, if you are trading in a Vulcan equipped Taurus or a 4 cyl Camry, the 3.0 500 probably seems more than adequate. However, if you are used to a Duratec Taurus, a V6 Camry or Accord, or even one of the GM cars with their 3.8, the 500 will seem a bit lethargic.

    Another thing to consider is the smoothness and sound quality. The 3.0 Duratec is not the smoothest or quietest engine around. I don't mind that in our '01 Duratec Taurus because the thing was only $16K and change when new. However, as you move to a higher class of car for more money, the little tingle you feel through the accelerator or the labored sound under acceleration is more annoying. I am expecting the 3.5 to be improved in those areas.
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    I definately agree that flooring the 500 either 6 speed or CVT is not a plesent experience for your ears.

    Mark
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    I agree too. I have a Freestyle, and it's loud when you floor it. But in reality, I never need to floor it anyway, so the fact that it's loud is a good thing as far as I'm concerned because it's the car telling me to ease off a little ;) But seriously, if I needed to floor it for emergencies or for a quick pass, it is loud, but again I floor it so rarely it doesn't matter to me.
  • mikerochmikeroch Member Posts: 69
    Hi all,

    This is my first post here.

    I drove a loaded (except nav and entertainment dvd) Limited AWD a couple of days ago. The salesman suggested I take it overnight, which I did. This allowed myself and my wife to get a pretty good idea of the car.

    We really liked it - extremely safe; lots of features; tons of room; very nice interior; great ride/good handling; well put together; great value (including .9% financing up to three year term!!); etc...

    The only major thing we didn't like, which I see is a current topic of conversation on this board, is the engine.

    The power did not seem lacking, but it was the noise that accompanied some acceleration that was annoying.

    We certainley hope that Ford installs the 3.5 enging, perhaps in the 2007 model year - at which point we would probably buy one.

    Any consensus/idea as to the realistic possibility of that happening? Any idea of other features/options that might be new for 2007?

    Any/all comments are appreciated and thanks!!
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    "The power did not seem lacking, but it was the noise that accompanied some acceleration that was annoying. "

    This is why they put a radio in the car. LOL

    Crank it up! :P
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    No new engine for model year 2oo7. Think Model Year 2oo8, not before....
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    If you find the Freestyle to be unacceptablely loud, and you definately want a seven passenger vehicle. Go take a look at a new Explorer. dbs are in the low 60s in thats truck. thats luxary car level. There are some really great deals right now on Explorer especially if you lease.

    You can probably lease a decently equipped Explorer for similar money as the loaded Freestyle.

    Mark
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    If you go the Explorer route, be ready to pay much more money on insurance and fuel. The Five Hundred (and the Freestyle) get incredibly low insurance rates and the fuel economy is much, much better than on the Explorers. You can't have everything. Either better fuel economy or more power...it's physics, to a large extent.
  • jh1977jh1977 Member Posts: 40
    When will Ford stop making bland, conservative, old fashioned body style sedans which have no wide appeal? Ford should bring in new Designers for the 500 and Montego so the cars can be redesigned. These cars are currently designed for the 65 plus senior citizen crowd and they remind of the 1970s Plymouth Valiant. When the new 3.5 liter engine arrives for the 500/Montego, Ford needs to redesign the 500 and Montego so they can have attractive body styles to appeal to customers in their 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s. The Camry and Accord cars have attractive body styles, why can't the 500 and Montego have the same.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    a. The 3.5L equipped Five Hundred/Montego will have a refreshed body style.

    b. I see no beauty or uniqueness in either the Camry or the Accord. Many others agree.

    c. I own a Five Hundred. I know many others who also do. I am nowhere near 65.. I even have one friend who is 18 who owns one! I also consider the current body style attractive. To me, the biggest need for the car is more power (and I particularly like the CVT, which, from what I read, is not likely to make it to the 2008 models, at least not with the 3.5. A pity, IMHO).
  • boodahboodah Member Posts: 7
    I rented a 500 SEL with leather for a week and I was impressed by the interior, the exterior styling (to me) is quite nice to the eye. The fuel economy far exceeded my expectations and the ride was very smooth. The engine did produce a bit more noise than I thought should be coming from the compartment when attempts to "jump on the gas". That's where I have my only concern for this vehicle. I feel that with the additional noise generated that I should expect an equivalent amount of "go".

    After spending a week with this car I realize that it wasn't meant to spur the sport/performance side of me. Instead, the 500 appears to have been designed to be a well mannered family sedan... period (and quite a nice one at that). Hopefully, within the next month I will choose the 500 as my next vehicle.
This discussion has been closed.