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Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego

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Comments

  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Reg, I agree, GM could have placed a much better engine in their Malibu, even their own 3.0L DOHC V6 used in the Saturn would have worked as well. Unfortunately they have a OHV obsession and refuse to let it go. There's many smokes and screens as to why they continue to insist on those engines, but in the end, they are cheaper to produce and majority of customer's won't even care.

    "The 4 and 5 are good engines for the colorado"

    I've read 2 reviews that also stated they should have used a V6. In fact, with all the announcements and marketing hype, I actually thought that GM would have had a winner in it's hands, but after the initial reviews, it fails to attract much attention. Not to mention, the Ranger's sales won't suffer much. Sad to say when the Ranger hasn't been redesigned for quite awhile... Next will be 2006 though...

    " The 3.5 should have been ready at launch"

    It should and I agree, but it's not. The tooling in the factories (as well as the suppliers) haven't yet teamed up to start producing it. PLus Ford is planning on debuting the engine in a Lincoln product, hence, that takes presedence over the 500. Just how the Mustang had to be pushed back a bit, so the 4.6L 3V version of the V8, is ready for it.

    "The 500 tries to mimic the look, but I don't think it entirely pulls it off becuase it still has a softness and bloatiness in its look that's way too American. Don't believe me? Compare the 500 interior pics vs. the Euro Mondeo pics "

    I've driven the Mondeo quite extensively. I'm not sure what this bloatedness is that your referring too. But the Mondeo is a quite a bit smaller than the 500. It's like comparing the CV with the Mazda6. Obviously it's going to take much more real estate to cover the dashboard, cowl area of the 500 as compared to the Mondeo/Mazda6. The P2 platform has a large firewall which helps for occupant protection, and crash dissipation, the Volvo S80 also suffer's from the large dashboard frontage if this is the bloatedness your referring to of course.

    "nvbanker: Tell us how you REALLY feel about VWs"

    I have 12 friends who had VW's in the past few years, it's sad to say that I know Hyundai's with better reliability than those POS. Everyone was able to get rid of there's, just 4 more left to go. I'm placing VW up there for "Yugo of the decade" award of how unreliably bad they have been to many I know. So I understand his frustration. :)
  • mikusmikus Member Posts: 109
    <johnclineii>
    Dated styling is a PLUS in the target market. Look at Avalon, Crown Vic, Lesaber, Park Avenue, etc.
    </johnclineii>

    Avalon does not look dated, it just looks like it is made for retired grannies. This is different. Crown Vic is the only one big body-on-frame car and it will live just because of that, no matter what styling it has. Though Caprice looked better for my taste. Le Sabre? Ugh. Park Avenue? Not dated, modern for grannies. Again, like Avalon, this is different.

    500 is simply dated, euro-dated if you wish, and with the styling it has its age is more evident. Boring and unadventurous. Take Mondeo, this is a modern car.

    <regfootball>
    "Radical" and "different" don't have to mean ugly...the 1986 Taurus and Sable were radical and different.
    </regfootball>

    Absolutely agree. The same goes with Citroen DS, 1955 (though a lot of people think it's ugly as hell); Citroen CX, 1974; Audi 100/5000, 1982; Saab 99; original Chrysler Concorde (1992?), Toyota Previa, 1991. The list is long, but it takes some guts to make it different. Taurus 1996 could be better, I like its front, and I even do not hate its rear window, I just cannot stand its lowered trunk with odd tail lights. And proportions... Too large overhangs for me. Original Taurus was very proportional. Well, current Camry does not seem so nice to me as well, which is why I drive Camry 1997, styling copy of Alpha 164, 1988.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    The target market for the Five Hundred does NOT buy for the styling. Styling is, at most, a veto factor. Therefore, the target is Ford aimed at is to merely be unobjectionable. I think Ford has hit that target. Great styling would have offended some of the target market.

    And reg, you, in particular, are NOT the target.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    I've shown a bunch of pictures to many of my friends (anywhere from 23-45) and not one of them had anything negative to say about it's styling. Yet many stated it looked like it had a Mercedes rear end, with a Audi like front, but many said they liked the elegant look to it and a few said they would want to take a closer look to it since they couldn't believe how big the car was, given it's Taurus like length.

    Those wouldn't be exactly the demographics that 500 is wanting to target, but works either way.

    Although they weren't that fond of the Montego... A few disliked it's aggresive looking grill, while a few loved the darker grey/wood interior (for those who dislike wood-like I).
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    "that the Euro sleek rounded look is old, tired and dated now"

    It's "dated" when it's not on an acceptable imported car. The Pheaton looks like a blown up Passat, big deal? Also, I have heard some call the new Audi A8 an "Edsel".

    Euro sedans have historically been "form follows function" and for decades, so called "enthusiasts" have been crying "When will Detroit cars be more functional and less flashy". Now when a US make comes out with a car that has many good engineering features, they say "It looks bland".

    Put a Toyota Avalon badge on it and it's "Toyota beats Detroit oince more".
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    And put an Acura or Lexus badge on it and start taking deposits! Sad, but true.
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    There's reams of mag articles saying "Camry styling is dull, but buyers don't care".

    Chrysler made some "pretty" cars like the LH series that are now "totally out". So if Ford made a "pretty" 500, by 2007 it would be "out" and they'd have to spend billions to please the armchair car execs, who would NEVER buy one to begin with!

    There are alot of car buyers looking for more than "showing off" to fake friends, coworkers, and in-laws. That is why they make luxury/sports cars.

    Want something practical, Ford. For "whizz bang" get a Jaguar.
  • chevyguy657chevyguy657 Member Posts: 216
    John, I'll eat my shorts (well, maybe not) if you buy a 500 over a new Buick LaCrosse (which you'll see very shortly). Several GM products and now a Ford? I don't buy it.

    After reviewing Ford's earnings/profit results for the latest quarter, the 500 will be even more obnoxiously overpriced than GM's latest intros are (and I'm laughing at some of those). And don't expect rebates, either.

    Thing will depreciate hideously and quickly if you buy one of the first ones (especially with the old 3.0L).

    A relative was just up north (NY/NJ area) and reports that the SUV thing has died in large part up there (LOTS of Volvo wagons, in their place) (she made her way into snooty parts of CT and claims that Martha Stewart is outside her house hawking Burbans for Chevy. ;) They have heard about the new Freestyle (which is a tallish wagon, and despite attempts to call it anything else that's what it is; as is the Malibu Maxx a 5-door hatchback) and are waiting in great anticipation for that, however.

    The darn SUV thing is still rocking and rollin on the west coast and in the south. Much to my dismay.

    Maybe the Excursion's continuance will rescue Ford, if they sign her on if she's found innocent.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    Well, aren't full-size FWD cars supposed to be a little bit bland? Blandness, if it comes with many features and a nice interior and whatnot, can sell. For instance, take the Camry - bland from front to back and in and out! It's still the number one selling car in America! Plus, the Avalon, Park Avenue, LeSabre, Grand Marquis, Crown Victoria and every other car in the full-size segment are fairly bland. The 500/Montego looks to be a good fit in that segment! :)
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    Ford made 1/2 billion for 2003 as reported this week, the F150 helped a lot. So not in need of rescueing by the Excursion.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    dave - I think you have a point about Nasser and the wide wake of damage he did to Ford.

    On blandness? I know today is today, and yesterday is the past, but I remember a lot of full sized American cars that were anything but bland, and did great! That all about ended in 73 when the 5MPH bumper dictated the style of the front and back of cars. Then Toyota and Honda came in and redefined cars.

    I don't think the 86 Taurus was bland at all. Certainly, the 96 Taurus wasn't bland, just ugly! So, I'm not sure they have to be bland to succeed.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    " the 500 will be even more obnoxiously overpriced than GM's latest intros"

    Considering the engineering investment (which I know quite a bit of) that has been implemented into the 500, let's say I was amazed when they announced pricing would be in the mid twenties. At least I'll pay that, and up to $35K easily just because of the platform alone that it utilizes.
  • chevyguy657chevyguy657 Member Posts: 216
    Read, read, read. Hate to admit it, but I have some Ford stock, but a lot more GM. Not happy with either, but more so with GM. I'll post a car-friendly link in a few minutes.

    Update, sorry 4Q was pos, but not for the year. Worse shape than GM by far. Load up those required option packages. ABS requires power lipstick attacher.

    http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6788&sid=17- 3&n=156
  • chevyguy657chevyguy657 Member Posts: 216
    Based on the nearly ancient S80 platform. I find the 500 vey unappealing on the outside but gorgeous inside. How's that for a GM fan's opinion. Is it worth anything over $28K loaded? Perhaps $29.5 with AWD.

    Should start at $21.5.

    Loaded AWD version will be retailed at $16.5 max in a year after intro, on the used car lot.

    Buy it, the joke's on you.

    Same thing with the '04 Malibu, without a nice $3K rebate.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    "Based on the nearly ancient S80 platform. I find the 500 vey unappealing on the outside but gorgeous inside. How's that for a GM fan's opinion."

    And what expertise do you have to claim the platform to be "ancient" as you wish to call it? Do you know the mega-hertz frequency which the platform possess and how beneficial it is for it's drivability and safety?

    " I find the 500 vey unappealing on the outside but gorgeous inside. How's that for a GM fan's opinion."

    No offense (considering I have some friends with GM's- and drive a friends Saturn on a daily basis when we go to the gym) but I have seen Hyundai's with better interior materials/qualities, than GM's. I think anything is an improvement....
  • chevyguy657chevyguy657 Member Posts: 216
    Appreciate your level-headed thet-stests. You're so quick on the draw this evening that I've revised earlier posting. Let's go forward from there after you reread (and I need a kitchen break!). ;)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Welllll, this is not a discussion about GM vs. Ford, we are talking about the 500 here, okay?
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    My point exactly....

    Hello 911? Can you send out a search party? Some are missing the point here :)
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I've been a silent observer on this board for some time now, but there are a few comments about this promising vehicle that I'd like to make.

    Styling: So much debate. Who cares? Styling is subjective, so why bother arguing whether it will sell because its bland, wont sell because its bland, etc. Personally, I do not see the "Audi/VW influence in the front". I think Ford is using Freestar headlights on this baby, cause thats the only vehicle I see when I see a "head shot".

    Power: Yes, the 3.5L is coming... eventually. Do we have any concrete power and torque figures yet? Until then, I could care less how many speeds the transmission has, or hasnt in the case of the CVT. 200 foot lbs will be adequate for a 3650 vehicle, let alone the 3800 AWD version.
    Calling it anything more than adequate, IMO, is a stretch.

    Pricing: If this car tops $33K fully dressed for the evening gown competition, its going to face a BIG sales hurdle. Chrysler's 300 class is also full size, offers a bigger V6 (as well as a V8), and will be a strong competitor. Though little is known, I would imagine the 2005 Avalon will be stiff competition as well, and Toyota has the added benefit of knowing about the Five Hundred and 300 class prior to telling the press anything about the next Avalon.

    Interior: Looks like high quality materials will be used throughout, and kudos to Ford for good engineering- spades of space are available, at least on paper. However, the design of the dash leaves much to be desired, and like those stolen headlights, seems to have much in common with the Freestar (itself apparently penned in the 1980s.) The Freestyle has a slick looking dash, why could the Ford folks not endow the Five Hundred similarly?

    Safety: Seems to have the requirements. Will the side airbags/curtains be standard in the SEL and Limited models? Is stability control standard anywhere? Or even available? I did not see it in the media guide, though I only looked when it was initially posted.

    Finally- NAV should really be an option, if Ford truly wishes to play in the upper echelon of the large family sedan class.

    Overall, without seeing reviews or having driven it personally (obviously, too early for either), I'd say its a promising effort, but I'm not convinced it will be enough. Maybe for Ford it will be enough (to turn a moderate profit), but this seems not to be a class leader like the Focus. It seems to be a competitive entry, but a fully executed design.... I am still left wondering.

    ~alpha
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    A 2005 Chrysler 300 Touring (w/K pkg)
    MSRPs as follows:

    Base Price including dest. $29890
    Luxury Group $2190
    Protection Group $590
    Power Adj. Pedals $125
    ----------------------------
    $32,795

    (I chose the 300 Limited and not the 300C, because the 300C has that killer Hemi V8, and the Five-Hundred barely offers a V6. I also left out the NAV on this example, since the Five-Hundred doesnt offer it).

    ~alpha
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    "they are cheaper to produce and majority of customer's won't even care."

    until they drive the competition.

    as far the Colorado, why didn't make the trailblazer in line 6 available?

    I didn't mean to say the interior of the Mondeo was bloated, but that 500 looked a bit puffy. The Mondeo quite possibly has the most attractive sedan interior going, and OOPS! its not here! Ford missed it big time by not bringing over this car, even as a mercury.

    And Cline telling ME I'M NOT the target. Like he's my spouse. Surely he must know my last 3 big car purchases have been Fords (2 TauriSHO and a Tbird). Or maybe he just thinks he knows. Perhpas a 500 might interest me. Not with a 3.0 Duratec under the hood. Hey cline, buy a new car already before the Impala dies, and get one with some back seat room! :P

    I think its so freaking funny when others sit and tell me what is and what isn't my car.

    John, have you made your mind yet on your next car or are you still waiting? There's a lot of good stuff out there, why wait any longer......

    "It's "dated" when it's not on an acceptable imported car."

    No, take your domestic shades off for a moment and look again. The "A6" look has been around for like 7 years now. IT'S BEEN DONE. Not offensive, sure. But not vogue. Even the current Passat is looking tired and dull. Time to get the new Passat over ASAP. The reason the A8 is bulked up and braodened was to avoid the overly clean look of the A6. BTW, the A8 is a stunning car in person. Whoever called it an 'Edsel' musta just got done putting a third coat of wax on their Lumina Euro, 89 Regal Coupe, or 93 Olds 88.

    "Want something practical, Ford. For "whizz bang" get a Jaguar."

    Hmmm....assuming you can't have both, practical, and a little whizz bang. Some folks can't have their cake and eat it too I guess.

    I'll say this. If Ford hits with this car in the mid twenties, it will make most of GM's lineup look like junk. Bus with 25-27k stickers can't hold a candle to the 500. And the incentivemobiles can't either...even with new LeSabres selling at 19k or the like. The Ford trumps them on styling that while boring is not reviling, and its got room and the blandness factor going for it.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    GM's current full-size offerings are the biggest joke one you find without a sense of humor. Even their American luxury brand has more plastic than a Kia! To me, the 500's biggest competitor is the Kia Amanti which offers the latest safety features, a great stereo, nice inteior, superb warranty, and mroe for around 26K fully loaded. Both the 500 and Amanti have about the same horsepower so it works. I don't think people shopping in the full-size segment are looking for 250HP or more. But, that's what the latter Duratec 35 is for.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    You'd better price the Amanti again, cause it tops out just under $29,000 ($28,790 w/ Convenience Pkg, Leather, and Stability). How are the 300 and Avalon not competitors?

    reg- You are bar none, the greatest at making outlandish claims. "Bus with 25-27k stickers can't hold a candle to the 500." True, in one sense, because a 2004 Malibu will top out at $25,720. However, the Malibu isnt intended to do battle with the 500, or vice versa. Additionally, for all your whining about pushrods, the Malibu will keep pace with Duratec Tauri, while returning 5MPG more in mixed driving. Personally, I agree that GMs dated large offerings wont offer much competition for the 500. That said, the Malibu is a very decent car.

    ~alpha
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    Please, tell me where did I say the Avalon and 300 are not competitors???????????????? I said that my OPINION was that the Amanti was the biggest competitor because of its features. I NEVER said any of what you stated. OK, so I got the price mixed up..big deal. It's still a good value and I hope Ford can match it.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    "the Malibu is a very decent car."

    Decent...that's it? Not even a very good, very great, outstanding, or even above average? Hmm, guess that's what decent passes for these days.. ;)
  • chevyguy657chevyguy657 Member Posts: 216
    Whether we agree to disagree or agree to agree, the Kia Amanti IS a 500 competitor, and Hyundai will kill the 500, cause a completely redone XG is due this fall.

    After all of these GM/Ford shenenigans with over pricing and copy-cat styling, I may just jump ship.

    The 500 will be overpriced, and the Malibu (not a competitor, but in my league) is as well.

    Rebates, NOW.
  • mikusmikus Member Posts: 109
    <regfootball>
    The Mondeo quite possibly has the most attractive sedan interior going, and OOPS! its not here! Ford missed it big time by not bringing over this car, even as a mercury.
    </regfootball>

    They decided to bring X-Type instead. Whatever. Saw Mondeo couple of times here in San Diego, on SoCal highways it looks no less stunning as on roads of Bombay.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    "as far the Colorado, why didn't make the trailblazer in line 6 available?"

    Supposedly GM stated they didn't feel the need for the I-6, since the I-5 would be more than enough. Mind you, on the sideline is the new Nissan Frontier which will sport a 4.0L V6 as well making around 250HP. So far from the reviews, critics haven't appreciated the I-5 configuration overall. They should have kept it for cars instead and get rid of the pushrods, but that's just my opinion.
  • chevyguy657chevyguy657 Member Posts: 216
    "we'll keep the old model around, just in case" is a bunch of hooey.

    Chevy has done that with nothing but bad resultls and is trying it again.

    My Chevy dealer had 6 Chevy Classics (one on the floor) in stock.

    When they switched from the Lumina to the Impala back in '99, they pulled the same stuff.

    500s will be in rental fleets, courtesy of Hertz, before the Futura hits the streets.
  • stormdavystormdavy Member Posts: 80
    Ford 500 is FWD or AWD; DaimlerChryCo's 300 is RWD or AWD. The 500 looks tall; the 300 long and low. Stylistically two very different animals; they don't appear as if they are meant to compete head to head.

    If Ford quickly brings the 427 concept to market, THEN they will have a more direct 'answer' to the 300C.
  • theo2709theo2709 Member Posts: 476
    The next Impala (FWD, 2006) will probably be a real 500 competitor.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    Well, they are both LARGE cars that their respective companies prefer to call mid-size. I have an Impala and am shopping Five Hundred. Yep, I'd say you are right...
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    Was one of the best looking Ford sedan concepts I have ever seen..then again, you don't really see many sedan concepts from Ford. I hope they bring the 427 to life, but with a big V6 and optional V8 without a V12 or whatever MONSTRER engine it had.
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    "500 will be in rental fleets"

    Many of your favorite Chevies are also filling up Avis, National, and Alamo lots. So what, don't like it, then don't buy it. Loyal GM buyers won't anyway.

    At this point it's a crap shoot, since the Taurus will still be around. Wait and see.
  • klauscklausc Member Posts: 6
    This is very trying, reading about the poor power of the 3.0 Duratec. I could understand it if we lived in Germany where the minimum speed for the left lane is 80MPH. This is the land of 1000 mile day trips with a maximum speed limit of 75, and only west of the Mississippi! 0-60 times of about 8 seconds for a family car is adequet, and the real test of a car is the ability to sit in it for 8 to ten hours at a time without hurting.

    I test drove a Passat with 4WD and W8 motor. The back seat room was tight, the trunk marginal at best, and the front seats made for people who weigh less than 160 lbs. It was FAST, but used premium gas and only got 18 MPG.

    May the new 500 give me enough torque to haul a small boat, 5 people in comfort, start at -20 and have A/C that can handle 120F. I want to use it for cruising the Interstate, not ten minute bursts of speed at 155MPH.

    BTW, Europeans don't understand our need for cupholders, they don't spend the whole day in a car to get to Grandmother's house.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    Both the size and the price will matter. The Chrysler 300 series will also have a higher seating position (2.5" higher than previous models), and has very similar interior dimensions. The new Avalon may also be large, but who knows about the seating position? I was leaning heavily towards the 500, because of the size and seating position (and I like the looks), but now that I have found that a loaded Chrysler 300 with the hemi will only cost a little over $35,000 (sticker), I have put it first on my list. The base 300 will start in the low $20,000 range, so the 300 will compete with everything from 500s, Camrys, and Accords to M45s and GS430s.

    2005 will be a very good year for car guys - the new Mustang, the new 500, the GT, the 300, and all of the other new models.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    " test drove a Passat with 4WD and W8 motor. The back seat room was tight, the trunk marginal at best, and the front seats made for people who weigh less than 160 lbs. It was FAST, but used premium gas and only got 18 MPG. "

    Huh?
    - Ray
    235 lbs. +/- and never the slightest bit uncomfortable in 20,000 miles of driving a W8 . . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    In the two southern states where I divide my time, AWD is not needed - ever. So we even buy 2WD SUVs and trucks here, unless you're a testosterene-deficient overcompensating male who just has to have 4WD to prove something.... Sorry, don't know where that came from. Anyway, it's good to see Ford leading out here, because in over half of North America, AWD would certainly be a great winter idea. Good article.
  • chevyguy657chevyguy657 Member Posts: 216
    has a lot of testoterone-deficient males who need to over compensate for something. We also have lots of women that spend more on their $60K Escalades than their mortgage payments.

    The pic of that Montego in the great article (thanks John) is the ugliest thing I've ever seen.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    I understand that Ford didn't think GM should have all the fun with the "angry applicance" designing theme! :)
  • chevyguy657chevyguy657 Member Posts: 216
    But, John, you're too quick on the draw today.

    Montego looks like one of those over-compensating males took his steel-toed workboot to the front end of a Sable.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    The Focus is ugly, the 96 Sable was ugly, but so is the Impala, the Malibu, the Cavalier, the Monte Carlo, and the last Caprice was the ugliest of all, IMO. So, chevyguy, why are you even here? It's clear you're a "chevyguy". We wouldn't expect you to like a Ford product.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    I agree with nvbanker - Chevy fans are in no position to criticize Ford's styling efforts. The Five Hundred may be too derivative of recent VW/Audi vehicles, but it is not a bad-looking vehicle.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Yeah, I've noticed too that the new Fords remind me of a Passat inside. Not altogether a bad thing, but not my favorite theme either..... OTOH, the GM stuff, even Cadillac, reminds me of.....well old GM stuff!
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    nvbanker, that you havent spent much time in Passats, then.

    ~alpha
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Just at car shows, alpha. Wouldn't even consider taking one home.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    I've warned everyone around me, if they got a VW/Audi, I was no longer going to speak to them. I'm sick and tired of the "Oh my VW has problems, can you help me"..Then before I know it, I'm spending hours with dealer's, techinicians, phone with HQ's to solve their problems. Granted, I'll do it for the occasional MB, BMW, GM, etc. but when it's solely VW...it becomes tedious real quick.
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    there's a Ford Tempo or Pontiuck 600 with your name on it ina junkyard somewhere!

    I for one (in MN) am glad to see the mfr's waking up and thinkikng more seriously about AWD.....I am sure they will stick it to us pricewise tho.
  • stormdavystormdavy Member Posts: 80
    Comments like: "...why are you even here?"
    &
    "Chevy fans are in no position to criticize Ford's styling efforts" notwithstanding, this discussion is open to all.
This discussion has been closed.